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I know Diana Ross likes "I Will Survive" as an encore song. To liven up this mix, "Never Can Say Goodbye" should be recorded and used as an encore song. Imagine her vocals being added to The Jackson's version of this song via studio wizardy! It worked with the Natalie Cole and Nat King Cole song,"Unforgettable".
That was originally a Gloria Gaynor hit. Diana may feel that she were giving a Gloria Gaynor tribute concert if she included another song by her ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCSvNZWpXaM
The Jackson 5 had the original hit which was covered shortly after by Gloria Gaynor milven.Quote:
Originally Posted by milven
Two great and entirely different versions of an excellent song.
I think Diana could do a fine duet performance with either version.
according to Mary's books, Jean was dating Clifton Davis. Davis also wrote Here Comes The Sunrise. so the interesting question is what would have been had the Sups recorded it firstQuote:
Originally Posted by Bluebrock
I remembered that Gloria did it first, and so I checked after your post. You are right. J5 recorded and released it first. Thanks for correcting me. Hope this is not the first sign of senility. :[[Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebrock
While checking whether Gloria or J5 recorded the song first, I read that Clifton Davis' song was originally written and intended for the Supremes; however, Motown decided it would be better for the Jackson 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
As for the duet idea with the J5, and the song, I like it
NEVER CAN SAY GOODBYE, I believe would not have been as strong of a recording had it been done by the Supremes instead of the Jackson 5. Michael Jackson nailed it ,perfect delivery... imo.
It's sung as a personal account , one person's tortured state of being hopelessly trapped by this thing called love.
Even as a Jackson 5 release, it's basically a Michael Jackson solo. Not sure how the Supremes release would have treated it. It might have been muddied by the implementing of a more group sound. Would they have been willing to release a single that sounded more like a Jean Terrell single?
I think keeping Jeans soulful voice out front with soft background harmonies from Mary and Cindy could have proved terrific. Can’t really imagine Diana singing this one at all. Just not her vibe. Agree that Michael really nails it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogiedown
I am sure it is nothing of the kind. It is probably true to say Gloria is more closely associated with the song these days. Her version was much the bigger hit in the UK and it is her version that you tend to hear more on the oldies stations.Quote:
Originally Posted by milven
I honestly cannot choose between the two versions. I love them both.
Not sure when the Supremes version was recorded. I think it was in the Promises Kept set of songs on the Jean Terrell box set or am i getting mixed up? Would that make it 71 or 72? It was almost certainly before Gloria recorded it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogiedown
the version we have of Jean [[and the Andantes) singing Never is after it was a hit for J5. the girls' version wasn't kept in the can and then the boys recorded it.
the Sup version is not bad and if they had included it in an album as a cover version, i think that would have been fine. the existing Sup version is NOT as good as the J5 original
but what i wonder is if the Sups had recorded it first AND with the same production as what we got on the J5. it's an excellent song and one of the reasons it worked well for the boys is that it was more mature in content. helped to broaden their appeal
that more mature sound and style was already a perfect fit for the Sups
Wow I love Jeans voice on this !! Not so much the "Supremes" in back up. Sup fan , you attribute it to the Andantes... I'm surprised as their harmony hurts my ears here.
So is Jean mimicking Michael Jackson here in her phrasing , so similar , or are both delivering as directed ...
Never heard this before. Jeans strident and less tender interpretation lends the song a completely different vibe. She sounds less the victim of her own emotions. It’s still Micheal for me though.
I thought this was done in LA but it sounds more like Mary, Cindy and the Andantes orQuote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
I've been listening to this throughout the day. Couple of things , I can't recall more distracting back-up singing, in harmonic sound and by being out of sync with the lead's tone , maybe its an early and more raw session, but I'm starting to understand Jimmy Webb's challenges.Quote:
Originally Posted by reese
Also this wouldn't have passed quality control for a Supremes' release . It would have to be reedited to change the grammar flaw , Jean sings "even though the pain and heartaches seems to follow me wherever I go" ....
Also I'm noticing Jean is reminding me of Melba Moore: that occasional nasal twang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag8-rVxE5tc....
which is weird because apparently Clifton Davis was dating Melba Moore around when he wrote NEVER CAN SAY GOODBYE.
And before you point it out Reese , I have since come upon her version of it !
Which makes me wonder why he didn't have her record it , release it in the first place, instead of pitching it for the J5.
Clay McMurray produced this on the supremes. and the majority of his tracks have added vocalists. i usually just say it's the Andantes, but i mean that in the general sense. I know by the early 70s there were a few studio backup singers around motown so that could be the blackberries, the ladies from Undisputed Truth, the A's. So I don't know that M and C are on this recording. Not sure what your statement about "Jimmy Webb's challenges" means but the MJC lineup were most definitely capable of producing excellent vocal work. listen to the many excellent Frank Wilson tracks. Frank also layered vocals so instead of the choral wall of sound, you had multiple vocal lines swirling in and out, being pulled forward and back in the mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogiedown
there aren't as many studio recordings of the MJL lineup but Lynda certainly had a more powerful voice than Cindy. I Guess I'll Miss, Bad Weather. these clearly demonstrate the group's fine vocals.
Hi sup
I was under the impression that Jimmy Webb basically buried the Supremes back up singing with additional vocals on the entirety of the project. He obviously felt they needed enhancement but maybe I'm overstating to what degree and how essential he found it?
Yes I get it's a different line up than on NEVER CAN SAY GOODBYE, but as I listen to it , whoever it is doing backup, Supremes themselves or otherwise,
I hear why enhancement in these situations occur.
These are just my ears responding , as I hear it , imo.
in the Jean Terrell years set, the Jimmy interview was the first time i'd really heard any explanation for the added vocals. his saying he wasn't getting the sound he was going for is an intriguing and maddening statement.
even though motown had long had a history of adding or substituting BG vocals, there was still a general consistency with the style and sound for the group. sure us hyperfans can often detect the differences but most people can't.
For Jimmy to have such a radically different sound in his head simply, at least to me, means he didn't have any idea of who or what this group was. you might have well as recorded a quintet of white british guys, that's about as far off base as Jimmy was "hearing." So if he really wanted to produce the Supremes, he should have spent much more time understanding the group, their sound and style and then how he might evolve it. or if he really wanted to do an album of this sound and style, he should have done the research to find a singer/group that aligned with that concept
Very interesting Sup!
I see from wikii Webb was the only outside producer ever called in to do a Motown project.
Maybe Motown called him and said please save our sinking Supremes and he thought reinventing them meant doing just that.
That he also wrote most of the album shows he approached this more as his project onto itself than theirs. And maybe in effect he just inserted them into it.
But then I suppose that same argument could be made about Norman Whitfield, or Ashford and Simpson, or Chic and their productions .
I agree 100 percent Sup. I have a feeling that Jimmy may have been attracted to working with the Supremes because of his love for Jean's voice. Fans have commented for years that the JW album feels more like a Jean solo project than a Supremes one, and I can understand why. He may have known exactly what he wanted to do with Jean, but found fitting in the other Supremes a challenge. And in this instance he should have bowed out and found another project and let the Supremes go on their merry way to do what they do best. [[I can only assume that Mary was given a lead to maybe make the project seem less obvious that JW's focus was Jean.) In the end I still feel that the JW album was the point where the public completely abandoned the Supremes. Could an entire Stevie produced album have brought the public back? I always like believing so, but the more I think about it, the less sure I am. The JW album was such a radical departure of sound for the group. Frank, Smokey, Stevie, all were able to keep the "Supremes" in their work with the group. Three very different producers, but still on brand. JW was a bad fit- not that it didn't sometimes produce some beautiful music- but brand wise, it was off. It would've been like the Supremes in 1966 suddenly going from "Love Is Like An Itching" to "Wang Dang Doodle". People would've been like "What the...?";)
I'm a big gaynor fan so many good songs.."casanova brown","let me know","we can start over again" and "honey bee" to name a few..I can't see diana having a hit with "say goodbye" I can visualize the j5 tempo working for an album track for her but no gaynor's style imo
it's most definitely an interesting What If - the whole Stevie thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
of the 3 songs we have, frankly i think the other two are more interesting than BW. but i do see how BW would be the more obvious single.
Frank and Smokey both really worked the idea of the GROUP. trading lead lines, offering the bg vocals more than just ooooo, etc. Stevie had been producing solo artists like himself and Syreeta. and so i don't really find his work with the group to be with a GROUP. it seems IMO he's approaching it as a lead with backing vocals.
Had we not had JW and just gone right to Stevie, that could have worked. I agree that i think the JW project really killed off fans and disc jocks.
but wonder why no one ever really talks about the idea of a Smokey follow up? the FJ album sold better than the previous, except RO. it produced a gold single and another top 40 [[which went top 10 international). interesting to think what he might have done next with the girls
I as well nomis . HOW HIGH THE MOON is a standout for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by nomis
A Smokey follow up does make sense. The only issue I can see is that around this time Smokey may have been more focused on his own recent solo career. Would be interesting to find out if Motown considered a Smokey follow up and it was this reason that it was a no go.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
"Bad Weather" is a great song to my ears, but it's another one of those where I feel like the shell is great but it needed to be expounded on. The other two cuts from the Stevie sessions that we've heard are good. [[I especially love "Soft Days" and can't wait for the day when we might get a mixed version.) I think the album would've ended up a classic album. The question is would any singles have put the group back in the spotlight and would the album have been popular enough to bring the fans back.
I think the bit of renewed interest in the group after Jean and Lynda left had to do with Scherrie and then Cindy's return, and the hope that the new grouping might be a breath of fresh air. The problem was, again, that the music largely didn't connect with the public, outside of "Heart Do the Walking". Mary basically had "He's My Man" and Scherrie had all the other singles and they still went nowhere.
actually Smokey finished his farewell tour with the Miracles in July 72 and was "retired" from the road and performing. in June 73 he released his first solo album. i'm not familiar with his solo work so no idea if that material could have been used for a Sup follow up or what the style/tone of that material was
the reformation of the group with S and C did seem to re-energize things a bit. a least with fans and reviews of their shows. some of the later MJL reviews were not good at all - like their show in spring 73 at the Fairmont in San Fran. It would be interesting to dig into the show material and all and compare the two lineups. Cuz it seems that with Scherrie the show had a spark again. was it because they had really revised their material? was it because mary was leading the group now? were the group conflicts of MJL becoming evident on stage?Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
as for the music, IMO the first big mistake was that Ivey Woodford didn't produce the majority [[or frankly all) of the relaunch LP. the songs they did were excellent. Pop with a touch of disco. and the girls' vocals are stellar. it was fresh and contemporary. and yet still "The Supremes"
i like the Holland disco work they evolved into but most of the dance tracks on Sup 75 are just too generic. you could have taken those songs to pretty much any female singer or group. they weren't "supreme"