interesting article - early 70s downturn in Vegas lounges and 70s Supremes

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Not buying it. Either Mary's account is false, dreamed up to add drama to Dreamgirl, or Gordy used that as a manipulation tactic. Nothing about Gordy's relationship with the Supremes suggests that he would've ever given Mary the power to veto his decision about anything. If he really wanted Jean gone, she would've been out on her ass and Mary would've just had to deal with it. If Mary's account isn't false, then Gordy used that Jean thing as a reason to walk away and being able to say "well Mary thinks she can do a better job than me, so the group is hers" as opposed to saying "I only gave a damn about the Supremes because of Diana. No Diana, no Berry" and of course that wouldn't have been a good look. Gordy knew that pulling Jean out at this late point would've pissed Mary off, and probably Cindy too, after all of the work they had done helping Jean get into the role. He knew Mary wouldn't go for it. Since Flo's exit, Mary had slowly taken over Flo's role of questioning some of the decisions and business surrounding the group and how everyone was treated. I believe Gordy made that call because he knew exactly how Mary would respond and he was hoping he was right.

Gordy wasn't invested in the Supremes after Diana's exit. He may not have wished for their failure, but he wasn't going to lift much of a finger to avoid it either. The Supremes were no different to him than Martha and the Vandellas or the Marvelettes at this point, and I don't believe he wished for either of those two groups decline, but he sure as hell didn't lift a finger to save them either.

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what's interesting about this whole subject [[kicking Jean out right after the Farewell) is just how little info we really have on it.

there are Mary's books. and in Randy's book Motown: Hot Wax, City Cool, Solid Gold, he brings it up and also includes a quote from Cindy. something along the lines of "after the big Farewell there was a big argument with Berry about Jean..."

that's pretty much it.

given what a HUGE implication it had, surprising there isn't more. Did Berry really feel that jean was detrimental to the group? was he testing Mary to gauge her loyalty? did he and jean have a falling out?

Even in some of the other trusted books on motown and the group, it doesn't appear

not saying it didn't happen. but as we've seen with nearly EVERY story about the group, to really understand what was happening, it's necessary to pull in perspectives from a range of those present. then sort of cobble it together.

would be fascinating to have had Cindy's full view on the situation

The group should have disbanded when Diana left. Berry should have signed Jean as a solo artist . Mary should have also been offered a solo deal. Not sure what could have been done with Cindy.

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Originally Posted by khansperac

The group should have disbanded when Diana left. Berry should have signed Jean as a solo artist . Mary should have also been offered a solo deal. Not sure what could have been done with Cindy.

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i think that might have played out badly for diana. i'd guess that public perception of the group being forced to disband for her solo aspirations would have been quite negative. there was already a lot of publicity about her ego and the imbalance within the group. that could have really tainted her initial solo efforts.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

what's interesting about this whole subject [[kicking Jean out right after the Farewell) is just how little info we really have on it.

there are Mary's books. and in Randy's book Motown: Hot Wax, City Cool, Solid Gold, he brings it up and also includes a quote from Cindy. something along the lines of "after the big Farewell there was a big argument with Berry about Jean..."

that's pretty much it.

given what a HUGE implication it had, surprising there isn't more. Did Berry really feel that jean was detrimental to the group? was he testing Mary to gauge her loyalty? did he and jean have a falling out?

Even in some of the other trusted books on motown and the group, it doesn't appear

not saying it didn't happen. but as we've seen with nearly EVERY story about the group, to really understand what was happening, it's necessary to pull in perspectives from a range of those present. then sort of cobble it together.

would be fascinating to have had Cindy's full view on the situation

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There's a lot of missing information about what happened within the group going back to when Florence was in the group. I've always wondered about why Berry had changed his mind about Jean, and right at the moment she became a part of the group. Like what happened? Did something happen between Jean and Berry? What happened THAT night to cause Berry to change his mind and at the very last minute?

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Originally Posted by SatansBlues

There's a lot of missing information about what happened within the group going back to when Florence was in the group. I've always wondered about why Berry had changed his mind about Jean, and right at the moment she became a part of the group. Like what happened? Did something happen between Jean and Berry? What happened THAT night to cause Berry to change his mind and at the very last minute?

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Yes, something did happen between Jean and Berry. He wanted to, but she didn't.......LOL!!!

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Originally Posted by SatansBlues

There's a lot of missing information about what happened within the group going back to when Florence was in the group. I've always wondered about why Berry had changed his mind about Jean, and right at the moment she became a part of the group. Like what happened? Did something happen between Jean and Berry? What happened THAT night to cause Berry to change his mind and at the very last minute?

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oh i'm sure you're right. there are probably volumes of info on what's not been told.

I can't remember who brought it up and with what old thread, but i remember someone sharing some info from talking with Gil. he said both M and D were crushed as they watched F deteriorate. both girls were really trying to keep her going and keep it from Berry. it just unfortunately got to a point where they just couldn't any longer. But the picture that's been painted of Diana scheming Flo out of the group is not only not accurate but slanderous. sure all the girls had squabbles and tiffs. good lord - who wouldn't. Diana definitely wanted M and F as part of the group until it simply became unrealistic to continue

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Originally Posted by SatansBlues

There's a lot of missing information about what happened within the group going back to when Florence was in the group. I've always wondered about why Berry had changed his mind about Jean, and right at the moment she became a part of the group. Like what happened? Did something happen between Jean and Berry? What happened THAT night to cause Berry to change his mind and at the very last minute?

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the little i've heard is that jean was quite opinionated on how to sing and how to present her voice. remember that Berry had total control over Diana and could give her endless criticism and notes, all of which she'd take without much fuss. But jean was an adult and had her own ideas and opinions. So she wouldn't follow Berry's dictates to the T

frankly it's a bit like Flo, but doesn't seem like she was as confrontational

I'd also guess that he started to see that she might not have had the TYPE A personality like Diana and prob started to wonder if she was really the right presence for the group

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

what's interesting about this whole subject [[kicking Jean out right after the Farewell) is just how little info we really have on it.

there are Mary's books. and in Randy's book Motown: Hot Wax, City Cool, Solid Gold, he brings it up and also includes a quote from Cindy. something along the lines of "after the big Farewell there was a big argument with Berry about Jean..."

that's pretty much it.

given what a HUGE implication it had, surprising there isn't more. Did Berry really feel that jean was detrimental to the group? was he testing Mary to gauge her loyalty? did he and jean have a falling out?

Even in some of the other trusted books on motown and the group, it doesn't appear

not saying it didn't happen. but as we've seen with nearly EVERY story about the group, to really understand what was happening, it's necessary to pull in perspectives from a range of those present. then sort of cobble it together.

would be fascinating to have had Cindy's full view on the situation

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I've seen the rumor a time or two that Jean refused to succumb to Gordy's "charms". But I agree, the best way to get a good read on a situation is by hearing from all involved from their POVs.

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Originally Posted by khansperac

The group should have disbanded when Diana left. Berry should have signed Jean as a solo artist . Mary should have also been offered a solo deal. Not sure what could have been done with Cindy.

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Mary wasn't ready to go solo. She's said her confidence was not up to the task. Continuing the group made the most sense, though I do think it's a worthy debate about whether Jean should've joined the group or not. If not, I definitely think she should've been signed as a solo.

An interesting scenario I've pondered regarding Cindy is what would have happened to Cindy if after Flo was brought back into the group while Motown worked out Cindy's contract situation, Flo had straightened up and decided to get with the program? Motown would have thus bought out Cindy's contract for shits and giggles. Either the label would've had to write that expense off and send Cindy on her merry way [[surely not back to the Bluebelles), or perhaps Cindy might have joined the Marvelettes when Gladys left, or the Vandellas when Roz exited. I think Cindy might have made an interesting addition to the Vandellas.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think that might have played out badly for diana. i'd guess that public perception of the group being forced to disband for her solo aspirations would have been quite negative. there was already a lot of publicity about her ego and the imbalance within the group. that could have really tainted her initial solo efforts.

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Perhaps if Mary was out of a job, but in Khan's scenario, Mary also received a solo deal. That would've gone over much better with the public because it wouldn't have just been Diana solo. Whether or not Cindy would've gotten one is the question.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Mary wasn't ready to go solo. She's said her confidence was not up to the task. Continuing the group made the most sense, though I do think it's a worthy debate about whether Jean should've joined the group or not. If not, I definitely think she should've been signed as a solo.

An interesting scenario I've pondered regarding Cindy is what would have happened to Cindy if after Flo was brought back into the group while Motown worked out Cindy's contract situation, Flo had straightened up and decided to get with the program? Motown would have thus bought out Cindy's contract for shits and giggles. Either the label would've had to write that expense off and send Cindy on her merry way [[surely not back to the Bluebelles), or perhaps Cindy might have joined the Marvelettes when Gladys left, or the Vandellas when Roz exited. I think Cindy might have made an interesting addition to the Vandellas.

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i think the more accurate statement is mary wasn't capable of a solo career at that time because 1) she didn't have the vocal chops to handle it and 2) motown had 0 interest in her as a soloist.

for the first reason, mary just wasn't, vocally, up to the job. the leads at the time were competent. but that's all. she didn't have the range or consistency with her performances

as for the 2nd, mary made MAJOR improvements and growth throughout the 70s with her singing capabilities. and even then, motown didn't want anything to do with her. she was ready to assume full lead of the Sups in 73 and motown said "nope." Even as she continued in the mid 70s, they still wanted scherrie

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

oh i'm sure you're right. there are probably volumes of info on what's not been told.

I can't remember who brought it up and with what old thread, but i remember someone sharing some info from talking with Gil. he said both M and D were crushed as they watched F deteriorate. both girls were really trying to keep her going and keep it from Berry. it just unfortunately got to a point where they just couldn't any longer. But the picture that's been painted of Diana scheming Flo out of the group is not only not accurate but slanderous. sure all the girls had squabbles and tiffs. good lord - who wouldn't. Diana definitely wanted M and F as part of the group until it simply became unrealistic to continue

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Mary actually writes in her first book that both she and Diana tried to help Flo curb her drinking and both were hiding bottles from her. The myth of the cold, heartless Diana Ross doesn't play out when people who were actually there talk about what went down. That thing is only popular with people who believe everything they hear and read, or folks who have an axe to grind. That's not to say Diana was innocent or a totally benevolent being. I think where Mary messes up sometimes is in publicizing some of the worst parts of Diana during this time, and not speaking enough about the better qualities. Likewise, some of the folks like Shelly Berger and them will never say Diana did anything wrong and because that usually insults the intelligence of the average bear, it leads to people leaning toward the Diana must have been Evilene if some folks are working so hard to paint her as Saint Supreme. [[And I exaggerate with the "saint", but I'm sure you get what I mean.)

Flo says they were like sisters and they fought like sisters. If she can say that after everything she went through with Diana, why in the hell would I ever take the word of someone who never even met Florence or Diana, attempting to tell me Diana Ross was the most horrible person who ever lived?

Hence thats why Motown only offered mary to be a co-lead

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think the more accurate statement is mary wasn't capable of a solo career at that time because 1) she didn't have the vocal chops to handle it and 2) motown had 0 interest in her as a soloist.

for the first reason, mary just wasn't, vocally, up to the job. the leads at the time were competent. but that's all. she didn't have the range or consistency with her performances

as for the 2nd, mary made MAJOR improvements and growth throughout the 70s with her singing capabilities. and even then, motown didn't want anything to do with her. she was ready to assume full lead of the Sups in 73 and motown said "nope." Even as she continued in the mid 70s, they still wanted scherrie

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think the more accurate statement is mary wasn't capable of a solo career at that time because 1) she didn't have the vocal chops to handle it and 2) motown had 0 interest in her as a soloist.

for the first reason, mary just wasn't, vocally, up to the job. the leads at the time were competent. but that's all. she didn't have the range or consistency with her performances

as for the 2nd, mary made MAJOR improvements and growth throughout the 70s with her singing capabilities. and even then, motown didn't want anything to do with her. she was ready to assume full lead of the Sups in 73 and motown said "nope." Even as she continued in the mid 70s, they still wanted scherrie

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But none of that matters if she doesn't believe in herself. You can't deal with any of that other stuff if the singer doesn't have the mental ability to approach the job. And keeping it real, but this is the label that signed Little Lisa, so ability alone wasn't always a determining factor in the label's interest.

I posted in another thread Mary's words regarding when she was singing leads during the Supremes 75 sessions and how she lost her voice, chalking it up to a psychological issue. If she could have that problem in 1974, there's no way in hell Mary would've been able to take over lead duties for the group or as a soloist in 1970.

If you listen to Mary's leads from 1960-1965, she mostly sounds like a confident vocalist. She had a really good voice, a nice range, and her tone was incredible IMO. And then all of a sudden she sometimes sounds shaky at worst, or lacks command at best. I do believe her story about Berry telling her that she couldn't sing. She comes across as a text book example of someone who was once confident but then has her confidence shaken. Had Mary had all the confidence she has today in 1970, giving her material suited to her voice, she would've been as capable as anyone else.

But forget all of that, what about Cindy in 1967? Flo is in and not going anywhere, what do you think happens to Cindy?

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

But forget all of that, what about Cindy in 1967? Flo is in and not going anywhere, what do you think happens to Cindy?

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Motown gives Cindy a substantial amount of money for her trouble because there was no way she could return to the Bluebelles. With that money, maybe she'd pursue her original career path, nursing I believe. They wouldn't sign her to a solo contract because she didn't have a lead voice. As someone else posted, maybe they might have her hang around to replace a Marvelette, Vandella, or Velvelette. But Flo's coffin was probably nailed after she threw that drink in Berry's face.

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Originally Posted by reese

Motown gives Cindy a substantial amount of money for her trouble because there was no way she could return to the Bluebelles. With that money, maybe she'd pursue her original career path, nursing I believe. They wouldn't sign her to a solo contract because she didn't have a lead voice. As someone else posted, maybe they might have her hang around to replace a Marvelette, Vandella, or Velvelette. But Flo's coffin was probably nailed after she threw that drink in Berry's face.

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That was me who suggested she might replace Gladys or Roz, although my money is on her replacing Roz. I didn't consider Motown might pay Cindy for her trouble. Since she eventually pursued a solo career in the 80s, I wonder if she may have attempted to do that if the Supremes didn't pan out. She may have also looked for work joining another singing group or maybe becoming a background session singer.

I don't think it was over for Flo until that last night in Vegas. I think even Gordy would've rather sucked it up and continued to deal with someone he didn't personally care for if it meant the Supremes could move forward without a shakeup in the lineup. Of course that hinged on Flo "behaving", and Gordy figured she'd slip up eventually, hopefully after Cindy's contract had been taken care of. And when she did slip up, she was out and Cindy was in.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

That was me who suggested she might replace Gladys or Roz, although my money is on her replacing Roz. I didn't consider Motown might pay Cindy for her trouble. Since she eventually pursued a solo career in the 80s, I wonder if she may have attempted to do that if the Supremes didn't pan out. She may have also looked for work joining another singing group or maybe becoming a background session singer.

I don't think it was over for Flo until that last night in Vegas. I think even Gordy would've rather sucked it up and continued to deal with someone he didn't personally care for if it meant the Supremes could move forward without a shakeup in the lineup. Of course that hinged on Flo "behaving", and Gordy figured she'd slip up eventually, hopefully after Cindy's contract had been taken care of. And when she did slip up, she was out and Cindy was in.

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i think flo was pretty much done in April when they met with Berry at his house. don't buy the idea that the subsequent dates with Flo were really anything more than they needed her. not that they wanted her. i think by that time the working relationship between the 3 and between Flo and Berry was ruined. it's not like this all happened overnight. she'd been skipping recording sessions and performances since early 66 - like when she missed the tour where Marlene subbed, missed the deb party at Grosse Point, missed the recording sessions in July with You Can't Hurry love and others.

the group had a jam-packed schedule and they simply couldn't finalize the release of Cindy in time. she jumped in for that 1 date in late April but then they had all of the tours and tv performances for May and June.

also Flo's name was on those contracts, for each gig and appearance. Every date the girls had was set by a contract. So to officially change the name of one of the performers might have taken a little time. they could start to implement that change eventually but probably not for every date.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

But none of that matters if she doesn't believe in herself. You can't deal with any of that other stuff if the singer doesn't have the mental ability to approach the job. And keeping it real, but this is the label that signed Little Lisa, so ability alone wasn't always a determining factor in the label's interest.

I posted in another thread Mary's words regarding when she was singing leads during the Supremes 75 sessions and how she lost her voice, chalking it up to a psychological issue. If she could have that problem in 1974, there's no way in hell Mary would've been able to take over lead duties for the group or as a soloist in 1970.

If you listen to Mary's leads from 1960-1965, she mostly sounds like a confident vocalist. She had a really good voice, a nice range, and her tone was incredible IMO. And then all of a sudden she sometimes sounds shaky at worst, or lacks command at best. I do believe her story about Berry telling her that she couldn't sing. She comes across as a text book example of someone who was once confident but then has her confidence shaken. Had Mary had all the confidence she has today in 1970, giving her material suited to her voice, she would've been as capable as anyone else.

But forget all of that, what about Cindy in 1967? Flo is in and not going anywhere, what do you think happens to Cindy?

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sure in the late 60s mary's confidence and abilities were probably stifled. but she was getting a little more representation - she had the duet with Eddie on Together, Can't Take was also added to their shows as was Falling in Love. She even had a small duet with Diana on Can't Shake Loose [[sort of like duet on Really Got A Hold On Me). it's not a lot but some at least.

during the Jean years, she had much more exposure. but when J and L left, motown STILL had no interest in her as a full lead singer. that's rather telling. she'd been a signed artist for 13 years, recorded a zillion songs with them, quite a few as lead [[especially post Diana), a gazillion concert appearance that often included multiple leads, and yet still 0.

when they first signed, they were kids. so they can be forgiven to some extent for foolish decisions, immaturity or just following the company dictate. By the time Diana left, they were 25. at this point, Mary should have been taking a much more assertive approach with her career. but she wasn't. she continued to rehash Can't Take My Eyes, she wasn't pushing a new image for the group. Why would motown bother investing in someone that wasn't pushing 110%?

It’s easy for you to say that seeing you’re commenting on it years after the fact. Why would she push for it when she knew she wasn’t ready. Letting Jean come in was a good choice. By fall 73 I’m assuming that mary felt like ready or not I have to do this. Motown not offering her the full lead does make you wonder, but letting her do part of the lead and scherrie do the other at shows they might work with her.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

sure in the late 60s mary's confidence and abilities were probably stifled. but she was getting a little more representation - she had the duet with Eddie on Together, Can't Take was also added to their shows as was Falling in Love. She even had a small duet with Diana on Can't Shake Loose [[sort of like duet on Really Got A Hold On Me). it's not a lot but some at least.

during the Jean years, she had much more exposure. but when J and L left, motown STILL had no interest in her as a full lead singer. that's rather telling. she'd been a signed artist for 13 years, recorded a zillion songs with them, quite a few as lead [[especially post Diana), a gazillion concert appearance that often included multiple leads, and yet still 0.

when they first signed, they were kids. so they can be forgiven to some extent for foolish decisions, immaturity or just following the company dictate. By the time Diana left, they were 25. at this point, Mary should have been taking a much more assertive approach with her career. but she wasn't. she continued to rehash Can't Take My Eyes, she wasn't pushing a new image for the group. Why would motown bother investing in someone that wasn't pushing 110%?

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Originally Posted by blackguy69

It’s easy for you to say that seeing you’re commenting on it years after the fact. Why would she push for it when she knew she wasn’t ready. Letting Jean come in was a good choice. By fall 73 I’m assuming that mary felt like ready or not I have to do this. Motown not offering her the full lead does make you wonder, but letting her do part of the lead and scherrie do the other at shows they might work with her.

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oh of course - hindsight makes all the difference.

but what i was saying was it's unclear just how much she was preparing for it. I'll be the first to admit that i wasn't there so, like everyone else here, i don't have the full story. and i'm asking it more as a question vs a accusation. maybe she really was pushing behind the scenes to take on more. some sources don't seem to support that but again, weren't there.

It does seem that once jean was onboard, she did take over more of the management of the group. and even though i think that was part of the source of her conflicts with jean, she was definitely stepping up more. Which just makes the issue more evident in 73. it had been 4 years since D left and still not much progression

I've also wondered what would have happened had to Cindy had Flo kept herself in check. I think she would have made a great addition to the Vandellas. If Flo had stayed, I do see the Supremes breaking up sooner than later. Diana would have left in 1968 rather than 1970.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

oh of course - hindsight makes all the difference.

but what i was saying was it's unclear just how much she was preparing for it. I'll be the first to admit that i wasn't there so, like everyone else here, i don't have the full story. and i'm asking it more as a question vs a accusation. maybe she really was pushing behind the scenes to take on more. some sources don't seem to support that but again, weren't there.

It does seem that once jean was onboard, she did take over more of the management of the group. and even though i think that was part of the source of her conflicts with jean, she was definitely stepping up more. Which just makes the issue more evident in 73. it had been 4 years since D left and still not much progression

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I am not going to write a long dissertation, because I don't have time. I'll just say, you weren't there and clearly have not spoken to someone that was, so I can't get upset with all your assumptions even though I know they are nowhere near the truth. I will say this, Mary Wilson is the only one that is constantly singing and performing paid audiences around World year in and year out! I know you will argue the point "but what about Diana, she's still performing too", she does not do as many gigs as Mary Wilson does EVERY year, all year.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think flo was pretty much done in April when they met with Berry at his house. don't buy the idea that the subsequent dates with Flo were really anything more than they needed her. not that they wanted her. i think by that time the working relationship between the 3 and between Flo and Berry was ruined. it's not like this all happened overnight. she'd been skipping recording sessions and performances since early 66 - like when she missed the tour where Marlene subbed, missed the deb party at Grosse Point, missed the recording sessions in July with You Can't Hurry love and others.

the group had a jam-packed schedule and they simply couldn't finalize the release of Cindy in time. she jumped in for that 1 date in late April but then they had all of the tours and tv performances for May and June.

also Flo's name was on those contracts, for each gig and appearance. Every date the girls had was set by a contract. So to officially change the name of one of the performers might have taken a little time. they could start to implement that change eventually but probably not for every date.

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The problem with all of that, is that Flo would've been dropped the minute Cindy was free from her contract. There's no reason to believe that Cindy's freedom coincidentally coincided with Flo messing up on stage that night. Gordy needed a legit cause to get rid of Flo. She gave it to him. Had she not, had she had some type of "I've seen the light" moment, this is where the "what if" comes into play. Would a "new" Flo still have gotten the boot from Gordy? Would Diana and Mary go along with that? [[As if they really had a choice.) It's an interesting "what if" to ponder.

That debutante party was in 1965. There's no evidence that Flo and the Supremes were having any real issues that early in time. I assume Florence was ill. She seems to have suffered a few illnesses while with the group. Of course it's easy for some to jump to the conclusion that these "illnesses" were alcohol related or mental, but there are some people who seem to be more susceptible to becoming sick than others. And then one time Florence had walking pneumonia and was still expected to do her job. That's crazy.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

sure in the late 60s mary's confidence and abilities were probably stifled. but she was getting a little more representation - she had the duet with Eddie on Together, Can't Take was also added to their shows as was Falling in Love. She even had a small duet with Diana on Can't Shake Loose [[sort of like duet on Really Got A Hold On Me). it's not a lot but some at least.

during the Jean years, she had much more exposure. but when J and L left, motown STILL had no interest in her as a full lead singer. that's rather telling. she'd been a signed artist for 13 years, recorded a zillion songs with them, quite a few as lead [[especially post Diana), a gazillion concert appearance that often included multiple leads, and yet still 0.

when they first signed, they were kids. so they can be forgiven to some extent for foolish decisions, immaturity or just following the company dictate. By the time Diana left, they were 25. at this point, Mary should have been taking a much more assertive approach with her career. but she wasn't. she continued to rehash Can't Take My Eyes, she wasn't pushing a new image for the group. Why would motown bother investing in someone that wasn't pushing 110%?

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To be fair, when Jean and Lynda left, Motown wasn't interested in the Supremes period. I had to concede Marv's point in another thread that even when Scherrie joined, Motown still was reluctant to re-sign the group.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

oh of course - hindsight makes all the difference.

but what i was saying was it's unclear just how much she was preparing for it. I'll be the first to admit that i wasn't there so, like everyone else here, i don't have the full story. and i'm asking it more as a question vs a accusation. maybe she really was pushing behind the scenes to take on more. some sources don't seem to support that but again, weren't there.

It does seem that once jean was onboard, she did take over more of the management of the group. and even though i think that was part of the source of her conflicts with jean, she was definitely stepping up more. Which just makes the issue more evident in 73. it had been 4 years since D left and still not much progression

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Unfortunately, unless someone does a Q and A, it always seems like our deep understanding of the goings on with this group go unaddressed. I agree, it is unclear what Mary was doing. So often with the group, people who do talk about what was happening focus on Diana, and when they focus on Flo it's regarding her "issues", and Mary is often an afterthought. Had it not been for Florence saying so, we never would have known she was the reason the Supremes were singing "People" and "I Am Woman". I think we all figured that was Gordy. But no one ever said anything.

I definitely hear a difference in Mary's vocal abilities by 1973. That version on Live In Japan of "Eyes" is fantastic. She needed focus. No one was there.

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Originally Posted by marv2

she does not do as many gigs as Mary Wilson does EVERY year, all year.

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And there's a good reason for that: per Mary's own mouth, she works because she has to. Diana doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I certainly believe that even if Mary were a gazillionaire she'd still travel the country- if not the world- singing and entertaining audiences. Mary is a gifted singer who only seems to get better with time, as opposed to most of her peers who seem to have hit some vocal snags over the years, to one degree or another. She loves singing, always has. But she probably wouldn't do nearly as many gigs at this point if she didn't have to. Aint nothing wrong with that. We all got bills to pay. But none of this makes Mary special. There are many others her age still working, some of whom are working jobs they do not enjoy half as much as Mary enjoys hers.

Of course another interpretation could be that showrooms were closing due to the lack of drawing power by acts like the Who-premes. Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by floyjoy678

I've also wondered what would have happened had to Cindy had Flo kept herself in check. I think she would have made a great addition to the Vandellas. If Flo had stayed, I do see the Supremes breaking up sooner than later. Diana would have left in 1968 rather than 1970.

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Or Cindy may have stayed a BB, though I don't think she would have been comfortable as a Labelle member. I think '68 may have been too early for Diana's departure; those extra 2 years gave the public time to adjust to her talent as a solo and then become a 'new decade' phenom.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

The problem with all of that, is that Flo would've been dropped the minute Cindy was free from her contract. There's no reason to believe that Cindy's freedom coincidentally coincided with Flo messing up on stage that night. Gordy needed a legit cause to get rid of Flo. She gave it to him. Had she not, had she had some type of "I've seen the light" moment, this is where the "what if" comes into play. Would a "new" Flo still have gotten the boot from Gordy? Would Diana and Mary go along with that? [[As if they really had a choice.) It's an interesting "what if" to ponder.

That debutante party was in 1965. There's no evidence that Flo and the Supremes were having any real issues that early in time. I assume Florence was ill. She seems to have suffered a few illnesses while with the group. Of course it's easy for some to jump to the conclusion that these "illnesses" were alcohol related or mental, but there are some people who seem to be more susceptible to becoming sick than others. And then one time Florence had walking pneumonia and was still expected to do her job. That's crazy.

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if i read this right, i think we're saying the same thing. I think Flo was done and gone with the group. IMO that decision came about, for the most part, in April 67. there's some potential that if she made a complete 180, she MIGHT have remained with the group. But i think it was pretty clear that wasn't going to happen and given her complete unreliability during the period, was just a matter of time. Once Cindy's contract was cleared, she was on tour with them at Vegas.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

To be fair, when Jean and Lynda left, Motown wasn't interested in the Supremes period. I had to concede Marv's point in another thread that even when Scherrie joined, Motown still was reluctant to re-sign the group.

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completely agree. i don't think motown had ANY intention of the supremes continuing at this point. Mary simply refused to let the group stop.

now one thing that is interesting is motown did not DROP the group. the supremes were still touring during 74 and so there must have been some remnants of the old contract still in place. otherwise wouldn't motown have tried to stop her from touring and using the name, since she didn't own it?

The decision for Flo to leave the Supremes was made in April 1967. Cindy Birdsong signed with Motown to be a Supremes member in May 1967 but they still had to work with the Bluebelles' manager [[Bernard Montague, who later managed the Delfonics after Birdsong officially left, leaving the other Bluebellles - Patti, Nona and Sarah - hiring another manager) to let Cindy go [[the other Bluebelles were unaware that Cindy was negotiating to leave them and only found out when they were going onstage one night in July 1967 when they heard that Cindy had officially joined the Supremes; Nona Hendryx for many years wanted to beat Cindy's butt while Patti felt betrayed.)

As for the Supremes itself, I think Jean Terrell's 1973 exit and the quick exit from Lynda and then Scherrie's entry made things difficult for the group to renegotiate with Motown. 1974 might've been the final year of the old contract so that's why they couldn't enter a recording studio and kept on touring. By the time they did resign in 1975, the writing was on the wall for them.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

if i read this right, i think we're saying the same thing. I think Flo was done and gone with the group. IMO that decision came about, for the most part, in April 67. there's some potential that if she made a complete 180, she MIGHT have remained with the group. But i think it was pretty clear that wasn't going to happen and given her complete unreliability during the period, was just a matter of time. Once Cindy's contract was cleared, she was on tour with them at Vegas.

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I agree that Flo's firing in April was intended to be a permanent deal. Had it not been for Cindy's contract issue, they never would have asked Flo to come back. But there's no way Flo agreed to come back in order to do the group- and by extension, Gordy- a favor by helping them transition the chick taking her place. Despite the talk of Flo no longer wanting to be a Supreme at that point, she agreed to come back, when she would've been well within her rights to tell them to kiss her ass.

That period between Flo returning and her being fired again is referred to as probationary, so had she fulfilled the terms of the probation [[no screw ups), it may have led to an interesting turn of events for everyone involved. Of course Gordy was banking on Flo messing up, and both he and Diana probably baited her on occasion- he for strategic reasons, Diana just being herself- so Gordy, a betting man, put his money on Cindy. It's just interesting to ponder the scenario where he loses.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

now one thing that is interesting is motown did not DROP the group. the supremes were still touring during 74 and so there must have been some remnants of the old contract still in place. otherwise wouldn't motown have tried to stop her from touring and using the name, since she didn't own it?

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Excellent point! I hadn't thought of that.

I wonder how different things might have been had Mary been able to secure the name before Motown got to it. I wonder how different the story would have been had Flo, Diana and Mary had wise counsel who pushed them to secure the rights to the name before Motown had a chance. If Mary's story is true, despite the Supremes being Motown's bread and butter in the 60s, it wasn't until the 70s that Motown actually took the trouble of legally securing the name Supremes, which is strange IMO. A name that important, you'd think Motown would have had all the I's dotted and T's crossed.

If I recall correctly, part of Flo's 1971 lawsuit was about the name. Too bad the suit didn't get to go as far as it should have. It would've been interesting to see the way the judge dealt with the name and who had a right to it.

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Originally Posted by midnightman

Nona Hendryx for many years wanted to beat Cindy's butt

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Nona may have wanted to, but she was no fool. I'm paraphrasing extremely loosely, but Patti basically said don't let the pretty face fool ya. Cindy wasn't the one.:p

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Nona may have wanted to, but she was no fool. I'm paraphrasing extremely loosely, but Patti basically said don't let the pretty face fool ya. Cindy wasn't the one.:p

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I read that in her book. Cindy can deliver a can of whoopa$$. LOL

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Originally Posted by midnightman

The decision for Flo to leave the Supremes was made in April 1967. Cindy Birdsong signed with Motown to be a Supremes member in May 1967 but they still had to work with the Bluebelles' manager [[Bernard Montague, who later managed the Delfonics after Birdsong officially left, leaving the other Bluebellles - Patti, Nona and Sarah - hiring another manager) to let Cindy go [[the other Bluebelles were unaware that Cindy was negotiating to leave them and only found out when they were going onstage one night in July 1967 when they heard that Cindy had officially joined the Supremes; Nona Hendryx for many years wanted to beat Cindy's butt while Patti felt betrayed.)

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Patti has mentioned not knowing that Cindy was leaving and joining the Supremes until Cindy called to say she would be missing a show but not to worry because she was ok. Then they received a call from Motown saying Cindy was now a Supreme.

It doesn't seem likely that Cindy could have stood in for Flo in April of 1967, then shadow the group at the Copa and Vegas without the Bluebelles knowing about it until July. Would Montague have really been able to keep that news from them for that many months? Surely the Bluebelles had their own gigs during that time so Cindy would have had to miss more than the one show that Patti mentioned.

I wasn't there so I don't know for sure. But for Cindy to even entertain the idea of standing in for Flo at the Hollywood Bowl gig, Berry must have promised her Flo's spot. I don't think she would have done a one-time only gig just as a favor. Then when they had issues with getting her out of her contract, maybe Motown swore Montague to secrecy until everything was settled. Then there was probably the issue of getting her out of her Atlantic contract as well, although David Nathan wrote that Cindy's name still appears on Bluebelles session logs as late as 1968, although she obviously wasn't there.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Excellent point! I hadn't thought of that.

I wonder how different things might have been had Mary been able to secure the name before Motown got to it. I wonder how different the story would have been had Flo, Diana and Mary had wise counsel who pushed them to secure the rights to the name before Motown had a chance. If Mary's story is true, despite the Supremes being Motown's bread and butter in the 60s, it wasn't until the 70s that Motown actually took the trouble of legally securing the name Supremes, which is strange IMO. A name that important, you'd think Motown would have had all the I's dotted and T's crossed.

If I recall correctly, part of Flo's 1971 lawsuit was about the name. Too bad the suit didn't get to go as far as it should have. It would've been interesting to see the way the judge dealt with the name and who had a right to it.

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I don't think Motown itself knew the potential value of names at the start, although they owned it in some contracts.

Otis of the Tempts wrote that the Tempts' never gave their name to Motown. But someone suggested they register their name. Otis sent off the paperwork only to receive a letter that an "Esther Gordy Edwards" had registered the name not long before. They were shocked but didn't complain at the time. Of course, this later became a problem when the guys wanted to leave Motown and Smokey had to help them leave with their name.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Excellent point! I hadn't thought of that.

I wonder how different things might have been had Mary been able to secure the name before Motown got to it. I wonder how different the story would have been had Flo, Diana and Mary had wise counsel who pushed them to secure the rights to the name before Motown had a chance. If Mary's story is true, despite the Supremes being Motown's bread and butter in the 60s, it wasn't until the 70s that Motown actually took the trouble of legally securing the name Supremes, which is strange IMO. A name that important, you'd think Motown would have had all the I's dotted and T's crossed.

If I recall correctly, part of Flo's 1971 lawsuit was about the name. Too bad the suit didn't get to go as far as it should have. It would've been interesting to see the way the judge dealt with the name and who had a right to it.

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hahaha - ok you listed about 10 dissertations worth of topics there lol

I'm going to assume that Mary's story is right, if for no other reason that the documents and the dates on them would be a matter of public record. so anyone would be able to see that late date that motown filed. Now as for the story of her lawyer sneaking behind her back, have no idea. i'd assume it's true but then again many of the stories in her book are rather one-sided. so who knows

but back to my original point

just very curious that Motown didn't officially drop the group. perhaps they were just waiting until whatever contract with Mary came due. there is that story of her fight with Abner [[i think) and mike Roshkind about their claiming she wasn't a Sup because her contract hadn't been signed. so sometime in early-spring 1974, she was negotiating. because motown finalized the contracts around the time she got married in late spring 74.

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Originally Posted by reese

Patti has mentioned not knowing that Cindy was leaving and joining the Supremes until Cindy called to say she would be missing a show but not to worry because she was ok. Then they received a call from Motown saying Cindy was now a Supreme.

It doesn't seem likely that Cindy could have stood in for Flo in April of 1967, then shadow the group at the Copa and Vegas without the Bluebelles knowing about it until July. Would Montague have really been able to keep that news from them for that many months? Surely the Bluebelles had their own gigs during that time so Cindy would have had to miss more than the one show that Patti mentioned.

I wasn't there so I don't know for sure. But for Cindy to even entertain the idea of standing in for Flo at the Hollywood Bowl gig, Berry must have promised her Flo's spot. I don't think she would have done a one-time only gig just as a favor. Then when they had issues with getting her out of her contract, maybe Motown swore Montague to secrecy until everything was settled. Then there was probably the issue of getting her out of her Atlantic contract as well, although David Nathan wrote that Cindy's name still appears on Bluebelles session logs as late as 1968, although she obviously wasn't there.

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i'm going to guess that people's memories just aren't exactly positive of the dates and timing. Of course information didn't flow as freely then [[no internet or emails). And during the H Bowl appearance, Diana did NOT introduce Cindy to the audience. Not sure if reviews commented that "Cindy Birdsong" stood in for Florence. And they sort of did her hair and makeup like Flo's. So it is possible that they were stealth enough about it to keep it on the DL.

I have zero personal info on the amount of touring and recording that the Bluebelles did. They certainly were not at a level of DRATS or even MRATV. so it's quite possible that their activities weren't 24/7/365. So maybe her absence wasn't fully noticed. Clearly Cindy had been meeting with motown and D&M for a while. and it definitely was a surprised to the Bluebelles, whether it occurred in May or July

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i'm going to guess that people's memories just aren't exactly positive of the dates and timing. Of course information didn't flow as freely then [[no internet or emails). And during the H Bowl appearance, Diana did NOT introduce Cindy to the audience. Not sure if reviews commented that "Cindy Birdsong" stood in for Florence. And they sort of did her hair and makeup like Flo's. So it is possible that they were stealth enough about it to keep it on the DL.

I have zero personal info on the amount of touring and recording that the Bluebelles did. They certainly were not at a level of DRATS or even MRATV. so it's quite possible that their activities weren't 24/7/365. So maybe her absence wasn't fully noticed. Clearly Cindy had been meeting with motown and D&M for a while. and it definitely was a surprised to the Bluebelles, whether it occurred in May or July

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I vaguely recall reading that one of the local papers [[maybe the LA Times?) reviewed the Hollywood Bowl show and called Cindy "a strong sub."

Patti has said that the Bluebelles worked a lot but for "peanuts." They were booked by the William Morris Agency as well as Queen Booking so they probably were rather busy, even without having hits.

In Peter Benjamin's book, Flo is quoted as saying that when they got to the Copa in May of '67, Cindy was there. As you say, memories can be faulty, especially as the years pass. I just find it hard to believe that Cindy did the Bowl gig, then was at the Copa the next month, and then Vegas the month after that, with the Bluebelles being none the wiser.