German Unofficial Motown Related CDs

There have been a few discussions on this topic in the past, and there's currently a thread on the Vandellas Live albums which mentions these releases. Thought it might be useful to bring things together a bit. The guy who used to sell these on ebay is no longer registered there [[not as dj-valentin-ny anyway). Also, trading of these CDs has been bannded on Discogs.

Nonetheless, Discogs has information on some [[but not all) of the unofficial CDs. I do know that he also made most of the Vandellas albums in expanded format including "Dance Party", "Watchout", "Ridin' High" plus the "Live" and "At The Copa" sets.

Also made a few "Lost & Founds"by The 70s Supremes and Diana Ross. Then there was "TCB", Disney and "A Bit Of Liverpool" expandeds and also a Brenda Holloway "Every Little Bit Hurts" expanded [[this list is far from exhaustive) ...

DRATS & Temptations "On Broadway"
https://www.discogs.com/Diana-Ross-A...lease/10096948

Supremes "We Remember Sam Cooke" Expanded
https://www.discogs.com/The-Supremes...lease/10417110

Supremes "Sing Ballads & Blues" Expanded
https://www.discogs.com/The-Supremes...lease/10216692

DRATS "Funny Girl" Expanded
https://www.discogs.com/The-Supremes...lease/10417208

Diana Ross "Live At The Royal Albert Hall"
https://www.discogs.com/Diana-Ross-L...lease/10216765

Diana Ross "Baby It's Me" expanded
https://www.discogs.com/Diana-Ross-B...lease/10096979

Mary Wilson "Mary Wilson" Expanded
https://www.discogs.com/Mary-Wilson-...lease/10417131

Diana Ross "Ross" Expanded
https://www.discogs.com/Diana-Ross-R...lease/10216791

Diana Ross "Sings Songs From The Wiz"
https://www.discogs.com/release/1041...The-Wiz/images

Supremes "Sing Country Western & Pop" Expanded
https://www.discogs.com/The-Supremes...lease/10216630

Martha Reeves & The Vandellas "Natural Resources" Expanded
https://www.discogs.com/Martha-Reeve...lease/10715074

Martha Reeves & The Vandellas "Black Magic" Expanded
https://www.discogs.com/Martha-Reeve...lease/10715033

What else do you know about / have?

Universal brought an end to the bootleggers business as is their right!

Some more...

The Supremes [[70s) - Remote Control Lost & Found
https://www.discogs.com/The-Supremes...lease/15330299

The Supremes - "A Bit Of Liverpool" expanded
https://www.discogs.com/The-Supremes...lease/15329876

DRATS "Diana Ross & The Supremes Sing Disney Classics"
https://www.discogs.com/The-Supremes...lease/15330479

Quote:

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Originally Posted by copley

Universal brought an end to the bootleggers business as is their right!

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Absolutely - I'm with Universal on this - the artists deserve their dues as do the owners of the work. Personally, if Universal had produced these releases [[or similar) I would have bought them all [[instead of the odd one out of curiosity). I'm sure most of us would . I'm not advocating anyone creating bootleg releases but what's done is done and there does seem to be some interest here. It's all purely for information.

You can add: "Heatwave"
"Sugar N` Spice"
"Everybody Needs Love"
"Love Child"
"Some Things You Never Get Used To"
"From Broadway To Hollywood"
" Let The Sunshine In"
"Supremes At The Hollywood Palace"
"DRATS Japanese Quad Hits"
"Touch"
"Floy Joy"
"Promises Kept"

I would love to be able to buy these legally and would do so should that happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Polhill

"Some Things You Never Get Used To"

I would love to be able to buy these legally and would do so should that happen.

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have you the link for this.. i cannot find it on discogs.

the only one i've purchased of these bootlegs was Martha Reeves - Rainbow.

there's also:

Lady Sings The Blues - Lost Sessions
Blue Moon
To The Baby
Diana & Marvin
For One And For All - Central Park 1983
Workin' Overtime
Take Me Higher

Jimmy Webb
Supremes 75
Live At The Grove 1970

I understand that Universal weren't happy with this as they are illegal and have put an end to it. However, there is a demand for these titles that Universal can't or most likely won't fulfill. Physical releases of Motown product have almost dried up. Sure, we got "Funny Girl", but this is such a niche release that it pains me that a classic like "Baby It's Me" never made it to CD in an expanded form.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whitesoxx

I understand that Universal weren't happy with this as they are illegal and have put an end to it. However, there is a demand for these titles that Universal can't or most likely won't fulfill. Physical releases of Motown product have almost dried up. Sure, we got "Funny Girl", but this is such a niche release that it pains me that a classic like "Baby It's Me" never made it to CD in an expanded form.

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Universal has held back on many albums that still have not seen a CD release. There are tons of Decca albums that have never seen a digital release as well as A&M albums, ABC albums. It would be nice to have them available. As far as "Baby It's Me", with the release of "Funny Girl" it gives me hope that it will get an expanded issue on CD.

I have bought all of the German guy CDs. I’m glad I did.
It’s because of bootleggers that we’ve had the Cellarful of Motown series in the first place I understand. That we’ve had the Beatles live at the BBC and Anthology series.
Those bootlegs make people want more from their favourite artists. And it finally profits the artists and the record companies.

For instance I’ve bought the FUNNY GIRL iTunes download.
But I was happy to get the pirate physical cd.
Did it prevent the artists to get royalties? No! Because all that was supposed to get them any was the official download. And people who have bought the German CDs have bought the download.
And now that it finally came out on cd officially, could anyone think the bootleg was enough? Of course not... I’ve bought a couple of copies of the 2020 official cd.
I never prevent the artists to get the royalties when there were some to get, and I’m sure all of those who bought the German CDs did likewise.

I don’t encourage anyone to produce or sell unauthorized products. I’ll always buy the genuine ones when released.
But I’m glad to have REFLECTIONS EXPANDED, DISNEY CLASSICS or DIANA LIVE AT THE GROVE 70 on cd.
Even if I’m dying to get an official product someday, someway

This sure would kill the limited market for some of these releases

I bought almost all of the CDs that were available from Ben in Germany. I am also very glad that I did. I doubt we would ever see all the Martha and the Vandellas albums in expanded form no matter how long we waited. Also he brought out for the very first time their live at the Copa CD, and although we’ve had a lot of tracks released that were previously in the vault on this group, it’s nice to have them all more or less together on all of their expanded issues. He did all the Vandellas albums and they’re really beautiful.

The artwork, the Tracklistings the mastering is as good as many done by Universal or Ace. What I mean is they may not sound like first generation masters that you would hear on a new release, but many of the reissues do have a little bit of compression in the sound to my ears anyway. I think Ben’s CDs were just as good and I’ve never been disappointed with the sound on any of them.


My favorites of the ones he did on the Supremes are the concept albums. Except for the Disney issue, they all have both the mono and stereo albums and a few bonus tracks as well. For example, the Sam Cooke tribute album has a live track to of one of the songs from the album.


I bought his funny girl CD, even though I had already bought the download version. I still bought the official release when that came out.


The way I’ve always felt about bootlegs is that if they’re good quality, I’m going to buy them. I love this music too much to be worrying about a few royalties that might eventually get to some of the original artists. How long did we have to wait for the Blinky CD? Seriously.

To me it’s all about the music.

I cannot tell you how tempted i have been in the past to purchase these bootlegs. I never yealded to such temptation, but when i see such tempting titles i do begin to wonder if i should have taken the plunge. We are highly unlikely to ever see official releases of many of these titles. That saddens me because there remains a small but devoted audience who would happily pay good money to own these titles myself included.
Sadly Universal are not interested enough and therin lies the dilemma.

@bluebrock,

I think Motown and rhythm and blues music in general still suffers from being considered second in art, popularity or just gravitas to classic rock. We see titles by rock groups such as King Crimson, Led Zeppelin, Neil Young, Tom Petty, and many many others with endless variations of bonus content. Neil Young has even recently started putting out 10 CD sets of his material. Yet when it comes to R&B, the only albums that have been given this kind of attention are Marvin Gaye’s “what’s going on” and a few others such as the kind of attention that the Prince vaults are getting right now. You can always assume it’s because they don’t sell as well as the classic rock expanded editions, but there might also be just a sense that they’re never going to garner the type of audience that a classic rock expanded set might.

The German bootlegs were all done with a lot of thought, planning and care. You could tell that the fellow really did love the music. He was also very creative and astute about what kind of bonus tracks to put on each album. For example on the expanded edition of “Mary, Scherrie, and Susaye,“ he included their final concert, their farewell concert in London, as the bonus tracks. The packaging and artwork was always top notch as well and even the CDs had art imprinted on them, not just a generic looking CDR type copies.

It's too bad that all parties involved would not be willing to figure out a situation that works for everyone's benefit, in regards to these German bootlegs [[ie. Offering discounted licensing fees, crowd funding from fans, etc). I follow a movie soundtrack forum from time to time and there was a particular soundtrack that was recently issued onto vinyl and CD in a very limited quantity for the first time, and the project was led by the soundtrack's original composer, who was able to obtain licensing and secured funding through online pledges from fans. This type of situation is not impossible, but it requires willingness/compliance from all parties involved, and sadly, I guarantee that Universal would not be willing. They are extremely protective of their intellectual property and copyrights. Having someone manufacture these releases out of their home would be risky to them, because it means putting their 'stamp' on something they can't guarantee, monitor or control themselves. So if it means eternally sitting on these recordings that a small group of fans desire to purchase, so be it. It's sad. Perhaps we will see Real Gone pick up the ball, but at this speed, there's no way that they'll be able to get all of these titles out there during our lifetimes. It's no one's fault. It's just the reality of this forever complex situation.

I have mixed feelings about these bootlegs, as I have made the argument in the past on this forum in regards to royalties, etc. But on the other hand, I know a huge Supremes fan who passed away last year and he managed to buy and enjoy many of these German bootlegs before he passed. Good for him, because sadly, he's no longer around to enjoy the new Funny Girl set, and any others that we will be lucky enough to have, in the future. None of us are getting any younger. Sadly, it's possible we could see the reissue floodgates open again once there is revived public interest someday...and I don't really want to think about that type of situation. We see it happening with Prince. At that point, it will just be a cash-in, or you can call it "legacy work".

As for the general public's focus on rock music and predominantly Marvin Gaye, there is a lot of different reasons for that. The argument has been made in the past that musically-speaking, The Supremes' catalogue, for instance, is not viewed as being as artistically-groundbreaking as their contemporaries, such as The Beatles. Some have said that the Supremes were much more of a 'singles' group versus the Beatles, who were known for their albums and cohesive bodies of work. I don't personally agree with any of those arguments. Others have said it could also be that their reputation is tainted by the behind-the-scenes dramatic truths and tales, which has turned off the public from giving them the proper wide-spread respect that they deserve. Not sure if I buy that either. I personally think it comes down to attitudes that are still very much embedded in the minds of many...whether it be racism, toxic masculinity, sexism, etc. But I digress. I'm going into territory that some on this forum do not believe are real issues that still exist today, in the music industry and in our world at large. [[Eye roll).

@carlo,

good points all, cogently set forth and very thoughtfully presented.

I don’t mean to seem cavalier about the bootlegs illegality or the artist or artists heirs who are entitled to royalties from the material, it’s just that my love for the music clearly outweighs that I guess. Oh well, I’m probably making my position worse by trying to explain it, as one wise man once said “ when you’re explaining, you’re losing!“

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kenneth

@carlo,

good points all, cogently set forth and very thoughtfully presented.

I don’t mean to seem cavalier about the bootlegs illegality or the artist or artists heirs who are entitled to royalties from the material, it’s just that my love for the music clearly outweighs that I guess. Oh well, I’m probably making my position worse by trying to explain it, as one wise man once said “ when you’re explaining, you’re losing!“

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Thanks Kenneth. Not to worry, I didn't take offense to your stance on the bootlegs. I myself obtained a few of the titles that contained tracks that I had not heard before. I was also pleasantly surprised by the quality of these sets. As much as I am for the argument about the legalities/royalties, I also understand the other end of the spectrum, regarding the love and passion for the music itself. There's been a lot of debate on this subject but one thing I know for sure is that most, if not all of us fans, are also guilty of sharing/emailing digital music files of unreleased songs to one another [[and cassettes from years ago). So it's one thing to argue against someone selling bootlegs because of the loss in royalties and the overall illegal nature of it. But we can't be upset and start judging harshly, if we, as fans, have shared unreleased music with others, digitally or otherwise. In some ways, we're contributing to these activities that we are arguing against. Not pointing the finger here, because I'm not innocent either. Just trying to be fair. I can honestly say that I've happily benefited from other fans' kindness over the years, as a result of sharing music that I hadn't heard. For example, almost 20 years ago, someone sent me a stack of copied CD-R's with music from their collection. I don't remember the exact titles, but one of them was The Supremes' Right On album. I had never heard that album from start to finish, before that point, and it became my absolute favourite. And you know what happened? Since then, I bought every Jean Terrell-era Supremes CD and box set [[ie. This Is the Story), as well as three copies of Right On on vinyl [[because I needed one with the poster, one to frame and one as an 'archival mint copy'...haha) and the original CD. We aren't talking about selling $5 copies of Ariana Grande's new album in Chinatown. The way I see it is that these are rare and hard to seek-out recordings that appeal to a very niche segment of the fan base, which more than likely will generate further interest in wanting the official licensed reissues, if and once they ever come along. Do I love that someone else is making money off of this? No. Do I love the music? Yes. :)

I've stated my opinion about 'unofficial' cd releases before, and will just refer anyone to Carlo's most recent post and say 'here, here' in agreeance. The real problem with bootlegs is, and has always been, the "$5 copies of Ariana Grande's new album in Chinatown". That's most likely a real, lost unit of income.

The gorgeously produced and manufactured unofficial releases we are discussing here are a different matter. We buy these because the expanded editions, unreleased live performances, projected albums, etc have never been officially available to us due to the greed and short-sightedness of music czars. Any one of us who buys an expanded edition of Martha & the Vandellas 'Dance Party' does so simply because only one person on earth has the foresight, interest and enthusiasm to make that release happen. Do I regret that a handful of performers and producers don't each make 4 cents on every copy sold? Sure. But instead of going after buyers and sellers of this wonderful, 'jailed' music, said performers and producers should be screaming at the labels and executives who hold this material hostage.

I have long lost touch with Ben from Germany. After he got in trouble he did produce a few additional CDs, of Gladys Knight and the pips and a couple others I think. But he had something in place that he would just download the material and you would produce your own booklet or some thing… Just things that I wasn’t going to deal with.


Anyway just for illustration purposes I thought I’d show what he did with a release that’s been highly anticipated by Diana Ross fans for years.

Attachment 18399

Attachment 18400

Oh boy, you're brave to post that photographic evidence here, Kenneth! They're gonna throw you in the slammer, Lady-Sings-the-Blues-style :O Kidding of course!

Hopefully Real Gone Music will get to do Baby It's Me next!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carlo

Oh boy, you're brave to post that photographic evidence here, Kenneth! They're gonna throw you in the slammer, Lady-Sings-the-Blues-style :O Kidding of course!

Hopefully Real Gone Music will get to do Baby It's Me next!

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if only I could achieve her performance level! LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

I've stated my opinion about 'unofficial' cd releases before, and will just refer anyone to Carlo's most recent post and say 'here, here' in agreeance. The real problem with bootlegs is, and has always been, the "$5 copies of Ariana Grande's new album in Chinatown". That's most likely a real, lost unit of income.

The gorgeously produced and manufactured unofficial releases we are discussing here are a different matter. We buy these because the expanded editions, unreleased live performances, projected albums, etc have never been officially available to us due to the greed and short-sightedness of music czars. Any one of us who buys an expanded edition of Martha & the Vandellas 'Dance Party' does so simply because only one person on earth has the foresight, interest and enthusiasm to make that release happen. Do I regret that a handful of performers and producers don't each make 4 cents on every copy sold? Sure. But instead of going after buyers and sellers of this wonderful, 'jailed' music, said performers and producers should be screaming at the labels and executives who hold this material hostage.

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I purchased the MR&V ones in the main for the mono versions of the albums, which I do not have on vinyl. I could have got some [[at a premium) from Record fairs or E-bay, which would result in the same - no further royalties for the artists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kenneth

I bought almost all of the CDs that were available from Ben in Germany. I am also very glad that I did. I doubt we would ever see all the Martha and the Vandellas albums in expanded form no matter how long we waited. Also he brought out for the very first time their live at the Copa CD, and although we’ve had a lot of tracks released that were previously in the vault on this group, it’s nice to have them all more or less together on all of their expanded issues. He did all the Vandellas albums and they’re really beautiful.

The artwork, the Tracklistings the mastering is as good as many done by Universal or Ace. What I mean is they may not sound like first generation masters that you would hear on a new release, but many of the reissues do have a little bit of compression in the sound to my ears anyway. I think Ben’s CDs were just as good and I’ve never been disappointed with the sound on any of them.


My favorites of the ones he did on the Supremes are the concept albums. Except for the Disney issue, they all have both the mono and stereo albums and a few bonus tracks as well. For example, the Sam Cooke tribute album has a live track to of one of the songs from the album.


I bought his funny girl CD, even though I had already bought the download version. I still bought the official release when that came out.


The way I’ve always felt about bootlegs is that if they’re good quality, I’m going to buy them. I love this music too much to be worrying about a few royalties that might eventually get to some of the original artists. How long did we have to wait for the Blinky CD? Seriously.

To me it’s all about the music.

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Hi there! Hope you're well, I was just wondering if you still have the CDs and would it be possible for you to send me the files of the mono portions and the bonus tracks of the following records?:


A Bit Of Liverpool
Sing Ballads & Blues
Sing Country Western & Pop
We Remember Sam Cooke
Sing Rodgers & Hart
Love Child


I have been looking everywhere [[especially for the mono versions) and would be up for buying the discs myself but they seem to be off the market anywhere....I would also be willing to pay for the files if there's any inconvenience encountered [[that's how desperate I am now). My email is simplymelancholy@hotmail.com if it is possible! Many thanks in advance!!!


Best wishes,
Karl


edit: apologies if asking for media publicly is against rules

@karl,

I don’t have any way to copy these. My computer doesn’t have a CD player and I have no other means to do it. Someone else asked me a while ago if I would consider sending them to him so he could copy them, but there’s no way I would do it. These are one-of-a-kind items and I wouldn’t let them out of my sight for something like that, having been burned in similar situations like that in the past. I also wouldn’t consider having them copied commercially although I’m sure there are many places that could do that as well. These were rather expensive to buy at the time, as I recall they were about $30 each, but they were widely available when they came out. I’m never opposed to just making a copy of one or two of them for a fellow fan but I can’t do it in this case.

I’m sure you can find them around here and there if you look hard. They’re worth the search. I’m sorry to disappoint you on this.

Kenneth

The thing with most of these type of “releases” is that they are always copied & repackaged, sometimes many times... buyers see this as a way to recoup their investments....

You can find some in second hand record shops and many online .... a lot more titles than listed here...

Some fan groups [[of other artists such as Prince) have for many years freely shared bootlegs in an attempt to stop profiteering.

To be honest, I am not sure if this is a genuine attempt or rather a way to “legitimise” sharing. Also, the trade in bootleg Prince CDs is still popular, so questionable whether this effected sales...

These are the bootlegs that Andy at UMe has put a stop to and frankly I don't blame him!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by copley

These are the bootlegs that Andy at UMe has put a stop to and frankly I don't blame him!

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As I agree with the mindset of why stop the bootlegs, I do not understand why UMe has basically dragged their feet on releases of unreleased materials and/or stopped or put a practical stop to any of the expanded editions. I remember when Hip-O was active, you could expect a slew of releases in a year. Now, the releases have dried up, the fans are hungry for unreleased/rare material [[which yes makes us fans search for alternate methods) and/or when fans go search for authorized releases we clutch ourselves when we see the prices.