... I have 2 last words: Chris Clark. Didn't do her career much good, did it? :rolleyes: Just maybe he recognized Diana's all-around star power? Hard to face the fact, isn't it?
... I have 2 last words: Chris Clark. Didn't do her career much good, did it? :rolleyes: Just maybe he recognized Diana's all-around star power? Hard to face the fact, isn't it?
Maybe Diane did "some things" that Chris was not ever going to do........LOL!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony
we already had Dusty Springfield....that possibly hindered Chris Clark.
Berry has stated he was looking for "one" superstar...lets just face the facts: He made the right choice....talented, disciplined, willing to take direction, and not a quitter.
They helped each others dream come true....Congratulations to them both.
Agreed, and understood by almost everyone. And I love both Dusty and Chris; not sure if Dusty had a hindering effect on Chris or not, but I do wish Chris had recorded more. She's had a good post-Motown career as an artist. Interesting lady.Quote:
Originally Posted by gman
Chris may have been one of the few blue eyed soul back then but Diana was doing pop, gospel, R & B, soul, country, standards and jazz. I still believe that Mary Wells was the original dreamgirl for Gordy. Diana put up with a lot of Gordy's directions that most artists just refuse to do.
Diana's talent, versatility, style, skill, work ethic and sensational stage presence put her in a category above and beyond any other artist at motown. the men or the women. she's simply in a category to herself
But in terms of finding that female ingenue, i think the "what if" story of Freda Payne is much more intriguing that Mary Wells.
Back when Berry Gordy was promoting his autobiography, To Be Loved, he did a sit down interview with Barbara Walters, and the one line that I still remember to this day is when he said, "I loved all of my artists, but I was in love with Diana Ross."
The other thing I always like to remind people is of the fact that Marvin Gaye was married to Berry Gordy's sister, Anna. And if you don't think that marriage came with perks and benefits that aided Marvin's career then you're either delusional or delusional.
BAM! Here's someone that has a good understanding of the truth! Thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by SatansBlues
The artists who either married or became attached to Berry forever:
Marvin Gaye [[married Anna in 1963, adopted a son born by Denise with Anna)
Diana Ross [[was in a serious relationship with Berry from 1965 until roughly 1971, had Berry's daughter Rhonda in 1971)
Harvey Fuqua [[married Gwen in 1963)
G.C. Cameron [[was in a long relationship with Gwen)
----
You could argue Marvin had it easier than Diana not just from a talent/grooming perspective [[he infamously ditched the grooming school but still took some advice from Maxine) but also Anna was an unsung heroine at Motown. She was Berry's elder sister and through her, got Berry to allow MG to do what he wanted...to a degree. Anna helped Marvin in almost much the same way Angie Stone helped D'Angelo many years later.
Diana worked until she would freak out and get into crying fits. Her relationship with Berry was VERY volatile. Not to mention Berry CHEATED on Diana a lot, not just with Chris but with other women. Diana clung on to Berry because of her dysfunctional relationship with her dad. But Berry used that against her.
Also we forget about Aretha Franklin, Tina Turner and Ronnie Spector, three women who got with similar Svengalis who had darker sides than Berry. And later Mariah Carey and Tommy Motolla and maybe Rene Angelil and Celine Dion.
These types of relationships can help but there's a price to pay. Diana and Berry was not a unique situation.
You left out Johnny Bristol and Iris, Jermaine and Hazel!Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightman
True, and as we know [[sadly) Mary Wells was a tad issue-y. A talented and beautiful lady but I don't see that she had quite the star-power to transcend eras. I would tend to think the same about Chris, but I do think that she woulda/coulda had at least a brief string of hits. An often-noted problem around that time as well, though, was that of Motown and its affiliates over-saturating the market with singles!Quote:
Originally Posted by captainjames
Yeah, at one point in 1963, you saw Motown, Gordy and Tamla songs charting all at once, then in 1965-66, came Soul and V.I.P. along to add to Motown recordings over-saturating the market, which was both a genius thing to do and kinda "overdoing" it but I guess it was necessary so that every Motown artist would get major buzz despite who BG himself was promoting [[Supremes mainly but Marvin, Stevie, Four Tops, Temptations, etc., would also successfully chart).
I think if Mary had stayed at Motown, her star power would've been built on more but what do I know?
Marvin and Berry were friends. They remained friends after both Marvin’s divorce from Anna, and after he left Motown. I think as a result Marvin enjoyed leeway - artistic freedom, if you will - than other Motown artists. With perhaps the notable exception of Stevie.
Berry makes it clear in To Be Loved that Mary Wells was going to be his big female star. Her departure from Motown certainly helped The Supremes. The unanswered question in my mind is why Berry picked Diana/the Supremes for that “Big Female Act” and not, say, Martha Reeves, who were more successful at that point. Diana and Berry were not lovers until 1965, so it wasn’t that.
Are you serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by grangertim
Didn't Otis Williams recently say that the Temptations were the greatest beneficiary of Mary Wells leaving Motown because after she left they got to work more with Smokey Robinson. And Berry and Motown had a system of really promoting and getting behind one group at a time. In early '64 Martha & The Vandellas last two singles, Live Wire and In My Lonely Room weren't as successful and hadn't charted as well as Heatwave and Quicksand had done, giving the Supreme's the opening they needed. And I think Berry Gordy had been grooming the Supreme's up to that point and it seems that he was definitely interested romantically in Diana Ross by then and had written at least one song about her [[Try It Baby, recorded by M.Gaye in January 1964). Sidenote: I also think that B. Gordy wrote the song You're Gonna Come To Me about Diana Ross as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by grangertim
Diana Ross is a Superstar because she works hard to strengthen her talents, as an actress and as a singer. Ms. Ross adores her fans.
Berry Gordy milked money from Diana Ross and The Supremes and into Ms.Ross' early solo career. Yet, I realize Mr.Gordy was running a corporation, which needed cash to produce iconic music.
Diana Ross almost had to take out a loan to pay her home taxes when she left Motown- with a minimal amount of money. Ms.Ross knows now that show business now means "Money Talks!" Berry Gordon couldn't offer Ms.Ross
the $20 Million that RCA offered to sign her
record deal. Even now, Berry Gordy admits that he would have signed himself away for that amount!
Diana Ross is "The Boss" of her entertainment
world because she paid her dues!
At the Clive Davis Grammy Award pre-party, she stated, "I'm not getting paid for this!"
Take me to the bank, too!
I believe all the Motown women from Mary Wells to Claudette to Chris Clark to Martha Reeves to Diana Ross may have had to be subservient to many men, most of all Berry.
But I don't think any of them suffered to the degree that Aretha Franklin did.
None of them had children at 13 and 15 like Aretha. None of them were as dysfunctional later and all through their lives like Aretha.
Berry's behavior and that of many other Motown men, David Ruffin first off, is unacceptable today. But the boss was the boss in the 1960's.
Well yeah, Marvin and Berry were tight. Marvin, Stevie & Smokey had more leeway in Motown than the other artists [[Diana included). But Berry saw DR as his ticket to the "big time" as early as that audition the Primettes gave him in 1960. Florence had up to then sung lead vocals for most of that audition [[Night Time ft. Mary & Diana and another song whose name escapes me). Berry didn't even bother listening until he heard that "nasally thin" singer lead on "There Goes My Baby". That's when he left his office to see who was that singing.Quote:
Originally Posted by grangertim
And except for Buttered Popcorn and the multi-lead parts in Heart Breaking Guy [[I named this on purpose because the title is too damn long lol), Diana led for most of those early "no hit" years anyway. Mary was definitely the template for the female acts to follow, them and the Marvelettes [[Florence said she was mad when they got Please Mr. Postman over them but still helped Gladys Horton deliver her lines because Georgia Dobbins, who was the lead singer, had left due to her strict father saying she should continue her education instead of pursuing a music career) but once he had HDH produce the Supremes [[after their Midas touch with Martha and the Vandellas began to wear thin at the end of 1963), it wouldn't be long until the Supremes hit pay dirt.
I think people have been slacking on the Supremes getting Where Did Our Love Go and selling it because Mary was gone, Martha and the Vandellas were going through a transitional period after Live Wire and In My Lonely Room performed below expectations, the Marvelettes were going through a personal and professional crisis all at once so revisionists like to "blame the Supremes [[namely Diana)" for stealing all of their thunder but they had to work just as hard to finally be among the elite. ONCE "Where Did Our Love Go" took off, there was no turning back. As soon as HDH found their winning formula: have Diana use her middle and lower registers [[and occasionally go high) and Florence & Mary using kick-a$$ harmonies and melodies to back her up, it was off to the races. Not to mention the grooming that transformed them from a simple rock and roll vocal group into THE vocal group of the '60s [[as opposed to bands like the Beach Boys and the Beatles).
As for Diana & Berry, there had always been this back and forth flirtation that was started by Diana winking at him during a Mabel John session in late 1960. Remember: Diana was 16 and Berry was 31-year-old married man. Once Berry got divorced in 1964, they were slowly easing into what would be one of the stormy and controversial relationships in rock history. So it was always there. For Berry professionally, Diana was his ticket. But that doesn't mean he didn't try with Mary, Martha and even Brenda Holloway and Chris Clark.
Brenda used to say that Berry had told her she was sexy as hell and wanted to date her [[or something to that effect) and Brenda said "I rather be an artist than be your lover" [[this was after she performed Mary Wells songs for him in Compton) so that was the end of that. Chris Clark was also just eye candy to BG despite her own talent. With Diana, I think it was a little deeper...and a bit perverted. BG had known DR since she was 16 and she was barely 21 when the relationship started. I think Diana saw BG as her protector and BG saw both money signs and also adored her. Looks wise, they were an odd pairing: Berry was a slightly shorter man who wasn't quite the Lothario you read about in romance novels and Diana was the type of black woman that many black men avoided so I guess the both of them found themselves in each other and it became more than just a physical demand as it's often looked at in various Motown, Supremes and Diana books. Diana was looking for a father figure and found it in Berry. Most women, especially black women, who fall for "father figure" types have difficult relationships with their fathers or barely knew them [[that explains why Faith Evans, Tina Turner, Ronnie Spector, Mariah Carey, etc., go for men that promised they would protect them but ended up hurting at the end).
And Berry sometimes misused his role: he cheated on DR a lot, he was also verbally abusive to her during rehearsals and even mocked her a few times [[that one time when Raynoma wrote that Diana wore some yellow dress to impress BG and when he saw it, told her she "looked like a chicken in that thing" that led Diana to run out of the room in tears).
I think overtime the relationship turned a little toxic and as Diana tried to settle into married life and motherhood after she ended her affair with Berry [[after Berry told her he had no plans to marry again) and Berry still tried to control her like he had done when she was the star Supreme, she wanted out and in ways had to fight for control, which is why she slapped BG after he began talking ish during the Mahogany shoot, and why she picked Ashford & Simpson for The Boss after BG prohibited Rick James from working on a full album with her and why she chose CHIC for the self titled album from 1980 and why she got into relationships with Gene Simmons and Ryan O'Neal and all of that. Diana was pushing 40 when she left Motown, she had to have her say and BG tried to block it.
But anyway, Diana worked hard, maybe harder than the other artists at Motown, because she was bullied for everything: her looks [[Wilson Pickett once claimed he forced Diana to turn her back from him after he looked at her; called her "the ugliest thing I ever seen", which is just f***ing cruel), her voice, being too skinny, being too dark, etc. People thought she had no talent. As Rick Buche said, Berry was the ONLY person who really saw something in Diana. I think Diana suffered from low self esteem and used her ego and ambition to mask that pain and that's why people think she's a b-i-t-c-h. But ambitious women are always criticized while the men aren't. Marvin threw a lot of tantrums but more than often had more freedom to do what he wanted more than Diana because he was male and was married to Berry's sister.
So to have a man like Berry say to her: "you have something special", it made a big impression on Diana that would tie the two of them together forever. Berry was the love of Diana's life and I think Berry also considers Diana the love of his life as well. Berry never recovered from Diana's initial exit from Motown in 1981. That led to the original Motown's decline to become more rapid before it got sold off to MCA in 1988 [[around the time Diana was working out a deal with him to return to the label). Diana ADVANCED her career by herself mostly because she had no choice as a Supreme and tried to assert herself after she left the group [[she won't admit it openly but she was scared of going solo because she knew people were ready for her to fall on her butt). Did she have SOME leeway being his girlfriend? Yeah. But obviously not to the point where Berry himself would just do everything Diana demanded.
But anyway, bottom line is I can name other artists who had similar Svengalis who helped to make them superstars. No one would dare accuse Ronnie Spector of "sleeping her way to the top" when she was with the Ronettes as she obviously was the star attraction and so was Diana too in the Supremes.
Also, if I can compare again, Berry was the one who decided in 1962 when Martha had the Del-Phis audition for him that Martha should be the lead singer over Gloria Williams because he preferred her sound over Gloria, which hurt Gloria enough that she left the group angrily because before then, she was the lead singer, not Martha. Berry saw Martha in the same way he saw Diana: that Martha would be a star, if not a superstar. But Martha was still too earthy and streetwise to "represent" Motown so I guess to Berry, he figured Diana was the perfect one because she was able to mix street and soul with sophistication and pop.
And he was right. Berry knew exactly what he was doing.
"To Be Loved" - the song Berry Gordy
co-authored sums up the relationship of Diana Ross and Berry Gordy.
Diana Ross wished to be the "Queen" and Berry Gordy wished to be the "King". We, the loyal
subjects of the Motown Dynasty are still enjoying the great music and Having a Party!
Thank You Diana Ross and Berry Gordy for all
The Joy!!!!!
I don't think Aretha was any more or less dysfunctional than any of the women you mentioned. She had some difficulties, like the women you mentioned, but labeling her as dysfunctional is a stretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by jobeterob
In the 60s that the boss was the boss motto was certainly firmly in place...except Gordy seems to have been rough and tough with his female artists in a way he didn't dare treat his male artists. I think Gordy felt "emasculated" somehow by the women in his family, who were all extremely strong, independent, capable, opinionated ladies. A story Eddie Holland relates about something he witnessed between Gordy and his sister Loucye when Berry and Loucye lived together strengthened the hypothesis about this that I've had for quite some time. I think when Berry was finally in charge of something, ensuring that the women knew their place was much more important to him than ensuring all the employees knew.
Diana Ross became a success because she had the talent and the drive to succeed. It can't be underestimated the fact that the public fell in love with her voice, a voice that they could not put a face to until after the Supremes had scored three number ones in a row. It can't be denied- though I'm sure some may try it- that her success stemmed from a variety of factors that all came together in the right mix, namely hooking the Supremes up with HDH. If a beautiful voice and all is all that it took for Diana to be a success, "I Want A Guy" would've been a number one hit. It took the right song, coupled with the right songwriters, added to Motown's growing business abilities, to produce a Diana Ross success story. I don't think it's guaranteed at all that Diana Ross would've become the legend we know her to be had HDH not had chemistry with her. Perhaps some other writer would've lucked up on a winning thing with her, perhaps not. [[What would Aretha's legacy have been if the story ended with Columbia?) I believe the same in regards to Flo and Mary, also gifted vocalists, who may or may not have ever hooked up with someone who could give them winning songs as well. The music business is mostly luck, but the suggestion that Diana Ross is DIANA ROSS because she fucked the boss is silly and wishful thinking by people who don't want to admit that Berry believed in Diana's abilities more than he did the other Supremes based off of whatever feeling he had regarding her talents. Right or wrong, that's the way it went down.
^ AMEN! Welcome back, RanRan!
well stated. so many of her motown colleagues have mentioned that she worked HARD. if something wasn't totally perfect, she'd sequester herself until it was. even in the very early years. this is a VERY unusual trait for a 19 year old. but that was part of what set her apart. she WASN'T a typical kid. odd voice, odd look, odd work habit.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
She also had a totally uncanny way of interpreting lyrics. her phrasing and the way she communicated a song was just amazing. again, totally unusual for a 19 year old
in one of the motown anniversary specials [[maybe 40?) Berry talks about his admiration for her because she not only had the talent but was absolutely willing to sacrifice everything for her goal of becoming a star. and that's yet ANOTHER totally unique and odd trait for a 19 year old. to be that focused on a profession.
Berry wasn't really sentimental about the music and motown experience. sure he had emotional ties to it and songs with deep meaning. but he never let that obscure his goal of profit and making money. it wasn't really about art in his view - otherwise he probably would have just focused on jazz, which was a first love of his. he wanted to be rich. that's why he desperately wanted to find the right vehicle with which he felt he could make mega money. male singers weren't it, in his view. blues/jazz wasn't it. he wanted a black woman that had the talent, drive and versatility to appeal to as many people of all color as possible.
and he found the perfect one
People forget Diana Ross was still just a kid when the Supremes blew up. Shows how hard she worked in the three and a half years they were in Motown before they took off. The only other person I heard work that hard that young was Whitney Houston.
Diana Ross singing "My Favorite Things" confirms that her vocal intonation is the
range of a legend. Whatever Berry Gordy saw
in Diana Ross, it took Motown to the bank!
Diana Ross' sweet vocal intonations have a spell of innocence. I could listen to "I'm in Love Again" over and over again. Each time I hear that sweet tuneful innocence within her golden voice, I am just bubbling with joy!☺
Thanks Lucky!!Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky2012
And Michael Jackson. I'd say he was more serious at a young age about his craft than either Diana or Whitney. But the three of them definitely possessed the extra motivation to make it or bust.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightman
I fully agree dear RanRan79 and nice seeing you back.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
I initially added him but I think it was the dancing and the all-around show for him. Whereas with Whitney and Diana, it was pure voice and the all-around show. IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
Man, Diana Ross didn't work any harder than the next person. She was the boss' girlfriend and there is no way she was going to have to work harder than others. She didn't! That was a calculated myth spread over the years. Everyone at Motown really knew the deal even those that would repeat that myth!Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightman
She DID work harder now sit down and enjoy the holidays. DianE aint thinking about you hon.Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
I agree although Diana had much more charisma tham Whitney.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightman
No argument here. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberta75
you ain’t nothing but a fool if you think that as EVERYONE, friend or foe, has talked about Ross’ work ethic - even Mary in Dreamgirl. I suggest you read it! Marvin Gaye said it, Mrs. Paul said it, Martha Reeves said it…… Everyone but you said it…… But then again, you had nothing to do with Motown except playing their records!Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
Here's your button. Use it.
<<<IGNORE>>>
Excellent advice. I blocked the troll and a couple of his disciples a few weeks ago and i would heartily recommend it to anyone who is bored or tired of his deranged trolling. Merry Christmas everyone!Quote:
Originally Posted by thanxal
Absolutely, this is so much fun to read
This Message Is Hidden Because Marv2 Is On Your Ignore List.
Whitney was a once-in-a-lifetime talent but her in-person demeanor was rather frosty. She came across well in videos which I think furthered her ascendance greatly. Best to you, Ms. Roberta!Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberta75
Depends on what you call frosty. I mean if one kept snooping on your private life constantly and constantly, you'd be frosty too. Diana obviously knew how to mask the pain she went through being picked at but Whitney emerged in an era where tabloids were starting to become mainstream. It can affect your personality.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony
BUT as someone who has watched Whitney's live performances on YouTube, she definitely had a lot of charisma especially in the very early years. That's why she was considered the "perfect package" when she debuted in 1985. She was actually a pretty engaging performer [[check some of the live videos). She didn't start to become REALLY frosty until 2000.
Interesting thought. Myself, I found Whitney to be rather uncharismatic in concert in the early years. I went to her first two world tours and was bored beyond belief. I actually left before the end of the second show. But I saw a change during her I'M YOUR BABY TONIGHT and THE BODYGUARD tours. There was a spark during those shows that I hadn't seen in the previous concerts. The last time I saw her in concert was the MY LOVE IS YOUR LOVE tour and again, she had really grown into a great entertainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightman
Fortunately, I didn't see any of the concerts after her life took its sad turn. I'm glad my last concert memory of her is a positive one.