What if 1970/71 New Ways/Touch

I wonder if things may not have stalled for the Supremes if a number of what if changes had happened with New ways and Touch. First, had New Ways been titled Stoned Love or Stone Love with just the center picture in turtlenecks, would that have appealed to that current audience? Also, a second single release of either It's Time To Break Down or Together we can make such sweet music[[that also a possible LP title here). With Touch, they should have waited to release it. Nathan Jones had a great sound, but in ways sounds unfinished-they could have waited to put the finishing touches on it. Much is said about New Ways Cover but the B&W Cover of Touch looks cheap and unappealing. Really, B&W and not color? Secondly, the title here is okay-maybe a photo of them reaching out to touch someone may have worked better. Also, I heard on Mary's anthology a much better version of Touch. I wouldn't have released it as a single but the other version would have had a better chance. I remember Clifton Davis saying on Mike Douglas he thought Here Comes the Sunrise was going to be a single and he was disappointed. I don't here a hit there like you do in Nathan Jones. Plus, this started Jean's most full bodied singing. Can you hear anyone else with as much power and gusto on the great song This is the Story? Perhaps even that would have been a good title. A lot of what ifs and mis steps in my mind. What do you think?

Re the title NWBLS vs SL, it might have made a difference. But I still think there might have been a problem because it was released around the same time as the first album with the Four Tops. Some buyers might have had to be choosey with their dollars. As it was, neither album was a smash. Not to mention that the RIGHT ON album managed to hit the Top 30 and it wasn't named after a hit.

Re the cover of NWBLS, I know some have criticized it but I never had a problem. Short of anything really gross, I can't think of an image that would have turned me off from purchasing any album if I really wanted it.

Re TOUCH, it might also have suffered from being released around the same time as another Four Tops duet album, THE RETURN OF THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN. NATHAN JONES didn't chart as high as STONED LOVE, so it shouldn't be surprising that it wasn't the strongest send-off to the album as anticipated. And of course, IMO, the title track should never have been released as a single.

Re the TOUCH cover, again, I have no problem with it. All of the girls look especially lovely on it, Cindy in particular. I think the soft focus black and white shots on both the front and back look nice. Plus the liner notes from Elton John were a nice touch.

i think the releases were only a fraction of the problem. the bigger issue IMO is that the group was stuck in an old, out of date image

if i could go back in time and wave a magic wand, i'd do the following:

1. delay and reduce the duets. the vast majority of the material on the 3 lps was mediocre. and little of it really rose to the immense combined talents of Levi and Jean. maybe postpone and release AFTER the Touch project

2. redo the NW album to be Stone Love, with the revised cover and a couple minor tweaks to the song lineup. Ditch Come Together and Na Na Hey Hey and replace with Time and Love and another, original rocking song [[i'd have maybe held Baby Baby back from RO and use on NW)

3. start phasing out more of the MOR stuff. sure when they played Vegas you could do all of that. but they needed to do more to appeal to college students. not pre-teens and grandparents.

4. stronger focus in concerts and on tv appearances for album material. sure they sound fine enough on We've Only Just Begun. but why not do Bridge Over Troubled Waters, to tie in with the lp?

5. choreography - has anyone else noticed they had some really awkward tv appearances? the SL choreography on Tom Jones, the SL/Time to Break Down medley on Flip.

6. continue to evolve the group image. with jean coming in, they had a nice shot in the arm of fresh air and it showed. but they never really built upon that or tried to continue evolving.

I agree with Sup Fan.
The image was old ,to many standards
Why were they still singing you're nobody until somebody loves you.gees

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think the releases were only a fraction of the problem. the bigger issue IMO is that the group was stuck in an old, out of date image

if i could go back in time and wave a magic wand, i'd do the following:

1. delay and reduce the duets. the vast majority of the material on the 3 lps was mediocre. and little of it really rose to the immense combined talents of Levi and Jean. maybe postpone and release AFTER the Touch project

2. redo the NW album to be Stone Love, with the revised cover and a couple minor tweaks to the song lineup. Ditch Come Together and Na Na Hey Hey and replace with Time and Love and another, original rocking song [[i'd have maybe held Baby Baby back from RO and use on NW)

3. start phasing out more of the MOR stuff. sure when they played Vegas you could do all of that. but they needed to do more to appeal to college students. not pre-teens and grandparents.

4. stronger focus in concerts and on tv appearances for album material. sure they sound fine enough on We've Only Just Begun. but why not do Bridge Over Troubled Waters, to tie in with the lp?

5. choreography - has anyone else noticed they had some really awkward tv appearances? the SL choreography on Tom Jones, the SL/Time to Break Down medley on Flip.

6. continue to evolve the group image. with jean coming in, they had a nice shot in the arm of fresh air and it showed. but they never really built upon that or tried to continue evolving.

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I agree that the duet albums hurt them a bit. They should have allowed Touch to be able to garner airplay by itself before releasing duet album after duet album that were filled with basically only filler material. I did notice that after years of splendid choreography that Stoned Love on both Tom Jones and Flip Wilson seemed awkward, which was not good especially for their biggest hit. I wonder if that was a Cholly Atkins move or if they demanded something to break away from their usual choreography, either way it didn't work. They did rely too much on standards as things were changing, think that Ross did mainly her album material on Diana save for the sketches. At the time I was excited for all the material that was coming out as a new pre-teen fan and it was where much of my allowance went for but I have to admit by the time of Floy Joy, I was kind of exhausted with the saturation of LPs. Speaking of look-Floy Joy was visually a great album cover as it maintained the glamour but modernized and streamlined the look in a classy and contemporary way. On Touch, yes they looked beautiful but I don't think the B&W photo was contemporary enough to catch the eye. New Ways had lots of great photos but by 1970, that type looked a few years out of date and there were too many pictures on the front for a cover photo.

Hi Jim--I had no idea there was an alternate take on Touch until I read your post! I loved that song as a kid, still love it, and this alternative take was really nice. I wish Mary had done the whole thing--Mary's voice is better suited to the song than Jean's. Jean sounds too nasal and shrill to my ears. Anyway, thanks for the heads up!

That version of "Touch" also seems to be possible evidence that the song was indeed recorded as solos and then put together, as rumored, because Mary sings a verse that Jean sings in the actual release.

Releasing Touch as a single killed them. It was almost an acknowledgement that the group ceased to exist as it was and there was some strange attempt to start again in a mysterious direction no one could figure out. I liked the song a lot but there was no way that could be a radio hit.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

That version of "Touch" also seems to be possible evidence that the song was indeed recorded as solos and then put together, as rumored, because Mary sings a verse that Jean sings in the actual release.

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i don't know that they did record it as a solo. in the notes and commentary about the MW anthology, they said they found a little more Mary lead and included it. but it's still a duet. so i'm assuming that if there were full solo leads, they're either lost or something really out of whack was on the tape or something. otherwise we would have probably received the MW version

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Originally Posted by jobeterob

Releasing Touch as a single killed them. It was almost an acknowledgement that the group ceased to exist as it was and there was some strange attempt to start again in a mysterious direction no one could figure out. I liked the song a lot but there was no way that could be a radio hit.

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Except it didn't. The very next single, "Floy Joy", was their best charting single since "River Deep". If any song or album killed the Supremes, it was "I Guess I'll Miss the Man" and the JW album. "Automatically Sunshine" made quite a bit of noise in various markets, but it appears that Motown dropped the ball in failing to give a huge push to what I believe was the group's best chance at a major hit since "Stoned Love". "I Guess" failed to make the r&b chart, something the Supremes hadn't failed to do since 1963. I also don't think it's a coincidence that both "Touch" and "Guess" are slow ballads, and they failed miserably. If you look at the group's discography, they were never really known for that. Most everything was uptempo, or mid tempo. "Touch" is a great song IMO, but it was the wrong choice of single. However, it can't be charged with having "killed" the group, not when the follow up did a ton better.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i don't know that they did record it as a solo. in the notes and commentary about the MW anthology, they said they found a little more Mary lead and included it. but it's still a duet. so i'm assuming that if there were full solo leads, they're either lost or something really out of whack was on the tape or something. otherwise we would have probably received the MW version

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Sup, I just looked through my booklet and I don't see that mentioned anywhere.

Once I realized that Mary was singing Jean's part, I figured if solo versions do exist, that the reason why a full Mary solo wasn't included is because "Touch" charted as a duet, and the decision may have been to stay sort of true to the original release for a retrospective on Mary's career. My personal feeling is that if the rumors are true, I'd like to have the solo versions back to back rather than a staggard release anyway.

I love “Touch”, but the hit song on the album had to be the mysterious and haunting “Love It Came To Me This Time”. Not a million miles away from the style “Touch”, but rather more accessible and commercial.

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Originally Posted by Ollie9

I love “Touch”, but the hit song on the album had to be the mysterious and haunting “Love It Came To Me This Time”. Not a million miles away from the style “Touch”, but rather more accessible and commercial.

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I do think "Love" was probably the more commercial song, but it would have most likely ended up in the "flop" column because it seems like the public preferred the Supremes to stick to a certain formula no matter who was singing lead. None of the group's ballads seemed to do much of anything. I do think the one exception could have been "Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You", had the label gone with it as a single.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

I do think "Love" was probably the more commercial song, but it would have most likely ended up in the "flop" column because it seems like the public preferred the Supremes to stick to a certain formula no matter who was singing lead. None of the group's ballads seemed to do much of anything. I do think the one exception could have been "Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You", had the label gone with it as a single.

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I think with radio support it might have done reasonably well. A bit of tv promotion might have helped nudge it a little further up the charts, but in truth nothing on the ‘Touch” album screams mega hit, good album though it is.
I still believe “Love It Came To Me” stood the best chance of doing well, being a song that still sounds cool today. :cool:

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Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

This topic gets run up the flag-pole every few months. Of course we can't predict the past, but I'll repeat a few of my thoughts. I have read that statistically an lp with the same title as a hit single will sell considerably better. Though 'Right On' is one of the best Motown albums ever, it's my opinion that the main reasons for its success are two good singles plus public interest in the 'new' Supremes. Despite the negative hagiographic myth that Motown did 'nothing' to support the group the fact is that the Jean-Supremes were all over TV. Mary seems to have started the 'blame-it-on-the-cover' trope about the lesser success of NWBLS, favoring what some call the Black power imagery. Though indeed a beautiful portrait it could be argued that an intensified cover of that sort may have increased sales to an urban audience but it could also be argued that such an lp cover could have decreased sales to other populations. I've also always thought that Jean and Mary's RBF expressions did nothing to enhance sales. I think the real reason for less chart success of NWBLS has more to do with market saturation [[see: Reese) with 3 albums in a 6-month time frame and the excitement of the 'new' Supremes having died subsided.

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I think the women look proud in that pic as opposed to bitchy. Otherwise an accurate assessment in to much product in such a short period of time.
It seemed the company had little faith in the groups longevity, trying to squeeze as much out of them before their popularity cooled.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Sup, I just looked through my booklet and I don't see that mentioned anywhere.

Once I realized that Mary was singing Jean's part, I figured if solo versions do exist, that the reason why a full Mary solo wasn't included is because "Touch" charted as a duet, and the decision may have been to stay sort of true to the original release for a retrospective on Mary's career. My personal feeling is that if the rumors are true, I'd like to have the solo versions back to back rather than a staggard release anyway.

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i believe it was a comment George made on here, that they found out there was a bit more of Mary's part and included it. I'm just guessing that there was no full-lead version in the vaults. given that they included the full lead version of You're What's Missing, if there was one that was usable for Touch, it surely would have been released

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

I do think "Love" was probably the more commercial song, but it would have most likely ended up in the "flop" column because it seems like the public preferred the Supremes to stick to a certain formula no matter who was singing lead. None of the group's ballads seemed to do much of anything. I do think the one exception could have been "Don't Let My Teardrops Bother You", had the label gone with it as a single.

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i think you're right. my opinion on ballads vs pop/dance tunes is that the ballad was to be excellent. whereas a dance tune can get by simply being good. the peppy melody and all helps carry it. so ballads certainly can and do chart and become huge hits. but they must be perfect, timeless songs. Touch is not that

i do think a wonderfully romantic lush ballad could have worked for the girls. they might have needed to lead up to it with an album or two prior. usually they had one or two nice ballads on the lp. if they wanted to branch into this, something like the HE album would have been a good stepping stone. establish a more romantic sensual image with the group and then break out a mega hit ballad

had Touch been reworked, it MIGHT have worked. the back half of the song is quite lovely. once you get through verse 2. then ending is lush, with gorgeous strings, the lyrics are very sexy. all 3 girls are highlighted plus all the layered backing vocals. it's the opening that's so off. and the two halves of the song really don't gel IMO

Teardrops was a very very strong song. definitely a possible single but the group was needing to re-establish itself and was having some success in the disco arena. so pivoting to a heartbreaking ballad wouldn't have been a good idea at the time

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Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

This topic gets run up the flag-pole every few months. Of course we can't predict the past, but I'll repeat a few of my thoughts. I have read that statistically an lp with the same title as a hit single will sell considerably better. Though 'Right On' is one of the best Motown albums ever, it's my opinion that the main reasons for its success are two good singles plus public interest in the 'new' Supremes. Despite the negative hagiographic myth that Motown did 'nothing' to support the group the fact is that the Jean-Supremes were all over TV. Mary seems to have started the 'blame-it-on-the-cover' trope about the lesser success of NWBLS, favoring what some call the Black power imagery. Though indeed a beautiful portrait it could be argued that an intensified cover of that sort may have increased sales to an urban audience but it could also be argued that such an lp cover could have decreased sales to other populations. I've also always thought that Jean and Mary's RBF expressions did nothing to enhance sales. I think the real reason for less chart success of NWBLS has more to do with market saturation [[see: Reese) with 3 albums in a 6-month time frame and the excitement of the 'new' Supremes having died subsided.

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i think the album cover is more of a signpost for the overall problem with the group. I agree that outside of something truly offensive or hideous, 1 album cover artwork doesn't break a group.

IMO the cover is the epitome of the lack of direction and strategic thinking for the group. while i don't take much of Tony Turner's book as factual, i do think he makes a valid comment [[even if it's inaccurate) about a story of Mary saying she didn't think afro wigs looked good with sequin gowns and how the community was shocked. who knows if that story is actually true or not. but he goes on to say that kids were no longer allowing their moms to relax their hair, the fans were getting older and wanting new things. they were maturing and evolving. and the Supremes were not.

the girls did benefit a bit with the lineup change. the new "world peace, love for humanity" tone was a great theme for the girls and jean's new vocal approach was a welcomed change. but they needed to continue that evolution. they should have started in later 1970 to change up their tv appearances a bit. be a bit more aimed towards the college demographic. same with the concerts. the duets should have been shelved, or at least postponed. and then NW released as Stone Love, with the afro cover art and a bit of adjustments with the songs [[cut a couple of hte covers and add a few other tunes) and it could have helped cement their evolution

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Originally Posted by Ollie9

It seemed the company had little faith in the groups longevity, trying to squeeze as much out of them before their popularity cooled.

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Interesting take, but I'm not sure that faith was the issue. To me it looks like Motown was doing what it had always done with the Supremes. I think the motto was strike while the iron is hot. When the girls took off in 1964, from that point through 1965, check out how many albums were released, and the close time frame. I think Gordy wanted to get as much out there as the public clamored for it. By 1966 the Supremes were firmly on the road to continued success, so there wasn't as much of a need to toss out a bunch of albums.

DRATS hit a snag and then once again there was a ton of albums released in a relatively short time. I think the idea was to release a ton of work on the New Supremes to keep the public interested, as the group had scored a well received first album and two huge singles. The problem was the duets. "River Deep" should have been a single only cut. Maybe it could have anchored the Tops' next album, since the speculation is that pairing the two groups was expected to give the Tops a much needed jolt. I think if the group had to compete with itself, as in if New Ways and a new Supremes Christmas album were released at the same time, New Ways may have fared better, as opposed to the Supremes having to compete with the Supremes and the Four Tops together, if that makes any sense.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Interesting take, but I'm not sure that faith was the issue. To me it looks like Motown was doing what it had always done with the Supremes. I think the motto was strike while the iron is hot. When the girls took off in 1964, from that point through 1965, check out how many albums were released, and the close time frame. I think Gordy wanted to get as much out there as the public clamored for it. By 1966 the Supremes were firmly on the road to continued success, so there wasn't as much of a need to toss out a bunch of albums.

DRATS hit a snag and then once again there was a ton of albums released in a relatively short time. I think the idea was to release a ton of work on the New Supremes to keep the public interested, as the group had scored a well received first album and two huge singles. The problem was the duets. "River Deep" should have been a single only cut. Maybe it could have anchored the Tops' next album, since the speculation is that pairing the two groups was expected to give the Tops a much needed jolt. I think if the group had to compete with itself, as in if New Ways and a new Supremes Christmas album were released at the same time, New Ways may have fared better, as opposed to the Supremes having to compete with the Supremes and the Four Tops together, if that makes any sense.

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I get what you mean. I don’t think the Supremes needed bolstering at that point in time, so agree it was the Tops who would benefit more having not done much since the success of “Still Waters”. For the Supremes “River Deep” as a single would have been enough.
A one off duets album instead of the “J.Webb” release would been perfect timing for such a project.
You would have thought by then Motown might have learnt something about how over saturation of product effects sales. The 70’s Supremes were to pay heavily for this marketing ploy.

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Originally Posted by Ollie9

I get what you mean. I don’t think the Supremes needed bolstering at that point in time, so agree it was the Tops who would benefit more having not done much since the success of “Still Waters”. For the Supremes “River Deep” as a single would have been enough.
A one off duets album instead of the “J.Webb” release would been perfect timing for such a project.
You would have thought by then Motown might have learnt something about how over saturation of product effects sales. The 70’s Supremes were to pay heavily for this marketing ploy.

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Interesting idea about a duets album instead of the JW album. Might have been a compelling scenario to re-pair the Supremes with the Temptations again [[since the Tops were gone). The Tempts were riding high on "Papa Was A Rolling Stone", the All Directions album, and continuing major success with "Masterpiece" and the titled album. It may have renewed interests in the Jean Supremes, maybe even ushering in a Supremes Norman Whitfield album.

The public had proven that it could get behind the Supremes post Diana, as long as they heard what they liked. "Ladder", "Stoned", "River Deep", "Nathan", "Floy Joy", all songs that the general public dug. The ladies needed great music. I don't know if Frank Wilson was tapped out. Smokey did his thing, but he also had his own career to focus on. I still think the move to Stevie was a good one, it just didn't pan out in execution. Plus he also had his own career to focus on. Norman may have been a good shot in the arm. Someone once suggested Willie Hutch. I thought that was a fantastic idea.

Thing being, would the Tempts have had the time or inclination for a duets album in 72. It certainly would have been perfect for the Supremes.
Not convinced the funk stylings of Hutch or Whitfield would have been right for Jeans voice but who knows?. New style/direction and all that. The Webb album was everything they should not have been doing at that point in time. Perhaps a hook up with Whitfield or Hutch might have provided the group with their very own “Lady Marmalade.

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Originally Posted by Ollie9

Thing being, would the Tempts have had the time or inclination for a duets album in 72. It certainly would have been perfect for the Supremes.
Not convinced the funk stylings of Hutch or Whitfield would have been right for Jeans voice but who knows?. New style/direction and all that. The Webb album was everything they should not have been doing at that point in time. Perhaps a hook up with Whitfield or Hutch might have provided the group with their very own “Lady Marmalade.

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To me, the number one reason to go with Jean Terrell as Diana's replacement is that they had one thing in common: both of their voices were pliable. They had this wonderful ability to adapt their style of singing to the style of song, and do it without losing their identity. So to my ears, Jean's voice would have perfectly fit a funky song Norman crafted for her as easily as it would a Jimmy Webb production. Plus, keep in mind, Norman was more than a writer/producer of funky, psychedelic soul, even though he's largely remembered for it.

But Norman and the other options I mentioned in the other post are limited options because of Motown's tendency to work with in-house producers. I really believe the Jean Supremes best option was bringing in an outside producer not named Jimmy Webb.

Regarding Willie Hutch, now that I think about it, someone suggested him for the Scherrie Supremes, which I thought was a great idea. I think Scherrie in particular would've sounded great on his productions.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

To me, the number one reason to go with Jean Terrell as Diana's replacement is that they had one thing in common: both of their voices were pliable. They had this wonderful ability to adapt their style of singing to the style of song, and do it without losing their identity. So to my ears, Jean's voice would have perfectly fit a funky song Norman crafted for her as easily as it would a Jimmy Webb production. Plus, keep in mind, Norman was more than a writer/producer of funky, psychedelic soul, even though he's largely remembered for it.

But Norman and the other options I mentioned in the other post are limited options because of Motown's tendency to work with in-house producers. I really believe the Jean Supremes best option was bringing in an outside producer not named Jimmy Webb.

Regarding Willie Hutch, now that I think about it, someone suggested him for the Scherrie Supremes, which I thought was a great idea. I think Scherrie in particular would've sounded great on his productions.

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An Ashford & Simpson produced album might have been less radical. I agree about Hutch working with MS&S. His funky productions would have work well on a voice like Scherrie’s.
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motown had long been using the policy of flooding the market with material. i believe the rational was if we have 1 really solid album and it sells 600,000, if we flood the market that really solid album will still sell 400,000 and the others will add to it. so in the end they end up selling 700,000 but none individually sell or chart as well as would have happened with just the 1 lp. but the rule was $ not artistic statement or long-term music historian perceptions

that said, i too like to play Producer and jostle the releases around, see what might happen

that's an interesting idea about 1972 and a duets album. but i think part of the problem with 72 was the fact that the girls overall reputation had slipped, as had all of motown. including Diana. Lady was her salvation

the flooding of the market with junk albums was only part of the problem. as i mentioned earlier, the group's image was just getting stale. and whereas the group could focus on 1 image/presentation for a couple years in the 60s and then change things up, by the early 70s with the significantly increase competition, that window for change had shortened.

the idea of moving the girls in 72 to an outside producer that was widely acknowledged as a trend-setting artist producer and developing a project that was more mature, contemporary and introspective is great on paper. regardless of how hot the group was, it could have benefited either way. if they were on top of things, it would have been a mega leap forward. with them down a bit, it was a great reinvention.

problem was every single aspect of the execution was a bad idea. i don't know if you could fuck it up any more if you'd purposely tried to. IMO Jimmy was an ok selection but not the best they could have found. Carole King, James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Helen Reddy. some of these might be too folk rock but i think Carole would have been the best.

i think if they'd postponed the duets until summer 71, that would have allowed SL, the single and a follow up single to all have the focus. then move to 1 album of duets, maybe with this lineup:

knock on my door
River Deep
For your love
one more bridge to cross
if you could see me now
I'm glad about it

melodie
function at the junction
what do you have to do
reach out and touch
stoned soul picnic
you got what it takes

River and I'm Glad about it are the singles. maybe Melodie

than after the duets, you move onto the Touch project.

If the Jean-led Supremes had been offered the chance to record an album written and produced by Norman Whitfield, would Jean have been more or less inclined to do it if the song He Means The World To Me, Too had been the title track? Would the record-buying public have been more or less inclined to purchase an album with that title? Would the '70s group have eclipsed the success of the '60s group after rebooting with this song? Would Diana have been pulled from Lady Sings The Blues so Jean could replace her in the film as well as in the hearts of fickle fans seeking something new?

Never cared for the duets but Return of had some good tracks but the other two lps were , lackluster.
Imo.Functiin at the Junction was great.had did that get overlooked.
Some gems on the duets box set.
I would have held New ways back to 71 and issued Together We Can as a single.
Shine on Me had a good feel.
They needed to drop the standards and sing they re own material.
It was a new decade.nobody wanted to hear Somewhere by this point.
Crazy how they continued to do same show and nobody got it.

I liked, Here comes the sunrise as a single.
And I would have released when can brown begin.
Over and over had possibilities and a dance mix on your wonderful sweet sweet love.
Been waiting for someone to remix this