Mary Wilson: June 13, 1977 - August 27, 1979

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Contracts are hard to get...just ask the countless amateurs over the decades who have tried but failed, for various reasons. But finding a contract when you've already been in the business makes the process a million times easier. Your examples of the Ronettes is right on. Mary had been in the music business for decades, and for most of it she wasn't a bottom dwelling celebrity either. Mary, apparently the most personable and outgoing of the original trio of Supremes, made countless friends and connections in the industry and yet it seems like none of it did her much- if any- good [[business wise) after she left the group. What labels did she audition for? How many demos did she record and shop around? I cannot be convinced that after Dreamgirl's success that there weren't labels who saw dollar signs in being able to promote Mary Wilson and her music. Hell even Cindy Birdsong had a damn recording contract in the 80s! LOL But Mary couldn't get one? Nobody wanted her? I'm trying so hard to break my bad habit of cussin but for this I have to say: BULLSHIT.

The one mystery is what the hell happened with Atlantic Records? No reputable source seems to have any real insight into what happened after Mary recorded the demos for the company. Perhaps they heard the demos and didn't like what they heard. But was that on Mary or the songs? And could anyone who signs Stacy Q and Julian Lennon decide that there's nothing Mary could do vocally? I think not. Lol

I don't recall her talking about Atlantic in her second book at all.

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Bravo. And I couldn't agree more about the possibility of Mary getting a contract after the success of "Dreamgirl". Sales of the book alone should have had record companies interested in her.

The only thing I can come up with, by looking at the top hits of that year[[1986) is that music was new wave heavy, and 3 of the 5 biggest songs of the year came fom non-US artists: Falco, Europe, and the Pet Shop Boys. The biggest US sellers were Madonna and Berlin. Maybe Mary could have found her niche, but I don't see her competing with anything that was current at the time.

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Originally Posted by marybrewster

Bravo. And I couldn't agree more about the possibility of Mary getting a contract after the success of "Dreamgirl". Sales of the book alone should have had record companies interested in her.

The only thing I can come up with, by looking at the top hits of that year[[1986) is that music was new wave heavy, and 3 of the 5 biggest songs of the year came fom non-US artists: Falco, Europe, and the Pet Shop Boys. The biggest US sellers were Madonna and Berlin. Maybe Mary could have found her niche, but I don't see her competing with anything that was current at the time.

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And she was too old

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Originally Posted by marybrewster

Bravo. And I couldn't agree more about the possibility of Mary getting a contract after the success of "Dreamgirl". Sales of the book alone should have had record companies interested in her.

The only thing I can come up with, by looking at the top hits of that year[[1986) is that music was new wave heavy, and 3 of the 5 biggest songs of the year came fom non-US artists: Falco, Europe, and the Pet Shop Boys. The biggest US sellers were Madonna and Berlin. Maybe Mary could have found her niche, but I don't see her competing with anything that was current at the time.

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There were several record companies that were interested in Mary Wilson. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they could not come to terms with her? Just maybe.........?

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Originally Posted by marybrewster

Bravo. And I couldn't agree more about the possibility of Mary getting a contract after the success of "Dreamgirl". Sales of the book alone should have had record companies interested in her.

The only thing I can come up with, by looking at the top hits of that year[[1986) is that music was new wave heavy, and 3 of the 5 biggest songs of the year came fom non-US artists: Falco, Europe, and the Pet Shop Boys. The biggest US sellers were Madonna and Berlin. Maybe Mary could have found her niche, but I don't see her competing with anything that was current at the time.

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Oh yeah, no way was Mary going to compete with any of the BIG names at that point. Around Dreamgirl I don't think Mary was going to do much more than maybe a few top 40 pop singles, some top 20/maybe top 10 r&b singles, some top 10 AC cuts, and a couple of nice albums. Maybe with some luck she might have gotten one big universal smash [[I think Mary would've done just as well as Brenda Russell with "Piano In the Dark"). I think she could do some soft rockers, but it would've been best to let her do the type of stuff Anita Baker, Phyllis Hyman, Melissa Morgan, Regina Belle, and others were doing [[her demo of "Sleeping In Separate Rooms" is the direction I think she should have gone in). But there's no way in my mind that Mary was going to be putting up numbers that even Diana couldn't do at that point. But she would have proven to be a solid money maker IMO. The hope would have been that she was able to just be Mary Wilson, without the Supremes.

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Originally Posted by marv2

There were several record companies that were interested in Mary Wilson. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they could not come to terms with her? Just maybe.........?

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Sounds believable. And there was the other time when she couldn't come to terms and also wound up with nothing.

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Originally Posted by marv2

there were several record companies that were interested in mary wilson. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe they could not come to terms with her? Just maybe.........?

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lololololololololololololol

Something tells me Mary's confidence wasn't so high even when she released Dreamgirl because the music industry had changed so much from when she was 16. Now she was 42. Time was definitely running out but she could've went into a freestyle/R&B/urban contemporary sound similar to Vanessa Williams and Mel'isa Morgan that year. She had the look and voice for it, just needed a label and the sound so she could finally be MARY WILSON, you know? Instead of "oh that's just Diana Ross' singing partner". Even Florence Ballard post-mortem has been seen as FLORENCE BALLARD, the group's founder. Mary, however, "oh just a background singer" to the mainstream. That has to suck because she was more capable than that, way more.

Due to Marv, Mary gets so crapped on in these threads

They are the most popular threads beyond Word Association

I hope she doesn’t come and read these threads because it wouldn’t help the ego of somebody who in the end only was known as known as a background singer on Diana Ross’s hits

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Originally Posted by jobeterob

Due to Marv, Mary gets so crapped on in these threads

They are the most popular threads beyond Word Association

I hope she doesn’t come and read these threads because it wouldn’t help the ego of somebody who in the end only was known as known as a background singer on Diana Ross’s hits

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Due to me? You mean due to you and your buddies. I always support and honor Mary. If there is any crapping done in a Mary Wilson thread it's by you because you cannot stand that I do not like Diana Ross at all!

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Originally Posted by jobeterob

I hope she doesn’t come and read these threads because it wouldn’t help the ego of somebody who in the end only was known as known as a background singer on Diana Ross’s hits

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I doubt Mary is bothered these days. She feels satisfied with where her legacy is at. She's a Rock and Roll Hall of Famer. That's enough for her.

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Originally Posted by marv2

Due to me? You mean due to you and your buddies. I always support and honor Mary. If there is any crapping done in a Mary Wilson thread it's by you because you cannot stand that I do not like Diana Ross at all!

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And just to put a balance on this situation it could also be true to say that you cannot stand that some people do not like Mary Wilson at all! It works both ways.

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Originally Posted by Bluebrock

And just to put a balance on this situation it could also be true to say that you cannot stand that some people do not like Mary Wilson at all! It works both ways.

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No, that would not be accurate or truthful. I do not care at all if you cannot stand Mary or not. It's your preference. I don't like Diane..ever!

K, guys, we're having a great discussion, don't mess it up lol...

I should be a mod here LOL

I'm watching y'all...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d72acd52c...nn9lo4_400.gif

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Originally Posted by milven

Sounds believable. And there was the other time when she couldn't come to terms and also wound up with nothing.

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I don't believe anyone is buying that Mary talked to a bunch of labels and couldn't come to terms. If anything, that scenario makes Mary look bad. It makes her look like an idiot who couldn't figure out how to negotiate a deal. And let's not kid ourselves, love her as we do, but this is Mary Wilson, not Diana Ross. What the hell was there for her to negotiate? Unless every contract had crazy stipulations like Mary had to sign over her first born or she had to undergo medicinal experiments or she had to perform a concert on the moon, there really was nothing for her to turn down. If the label was going to pay her and help her put out an album, what was the problem?

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Originally Posted by midnightman

Something tells me Mary's confidence wasn't so high even when she released Dreamgirl because the music industry had changed so much from when she was 16. Now she was 42. Time was definitely running out but she could've went into a freestyle/R&B/urban contemporary sound similar to Vanessa Williams and Mel'isa Morgan that year. She had the look and voice for it, just needed a label and the sound so she could finally be MARY WILSON, you know? Instead of "oh that's just Diana Ross' singing partner". Even Florence Ballard post-mortem has been seen as FLORENCE BALLARD, the group's founder. Mary, however, "oh just a background singer" to the mainstream. That has to suck because she was more capable than that, way more.

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Definitely agree on how the public views each Supreme. I don't know if I buy that her confidence around Dreamgirl was still low. When she performs during that time, I don't see or hear a woman who second guesses her abilities. I think at that point she had tunnel vision. She did the book, it was a phenomenal success, but I don't think she really thought about how to parlay that success into a music career. I bet you that once the first book hit, she immediately started thinking about the second book. And of course the second book was definitely a good move, but again, what about the music? Just seems like missed opportunities to me.

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Originally Posted by midnightman

I doubt Mary is bothered these days. She feels satisfied with where her legacy is at. She's a Rock and Roll Hall of Famer. That's enough for her.

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I agree. She's a grandmother now and, like Diana, she's at a point in her life when there's no crying over spilled milk. Mary has done more than most of her peers in the industry, and for far longer too. We fans probably make more of these kinds of things than the artists do at this point.

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Originally Posted by midnightman

K, guys, we're having a great discussion, don't mess it up lol...

I should be a mod here LOL

I'm watching y'all...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d72acd52c...nn9lo4_400.gif

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You and that gif!! You gotta do one of Florence.;)

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

You and that gif!! You gotta do one of Florence.;)

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Haha, I got a good Flo gif from this too. :)

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Definitely agree on how the public views each Supreme. I don't know if I buy that her confidence around Dreamgirl was still low. When she performs during that time, I don't see or hear a woman who second guesses her abilities. I think at that point she had tunnel vision. She did the book, it was a phenomenal success, but I don't think she really thought about how to parlay that success into a music career. I bet you that once the first book hit, she immediately started thinking about the second book. And of course the second book was definitely a good move, but again, what about the music? Just seems like missed opportunities to me.

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Right. You'd think she'd be able to make music waves like Tina Turner did [[though she released her first memoirs after re-establishing herself so maybe that's not a good comparison?). But yeah I agree that Mary was thinking about books than music. She had mentioned writing a "part 2" during promotion of the Dreamgirl book.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

I agree. She's a grandmother now and, like Diana, she's at a point in her life when there's no crying over spilled milk. Mary has done more than most of her peers in the industry, and for far longer too. We fans probably make more of these kinds of things than the artists do at this point.

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Plus, she's living very comfortably in Vegas. And yeah some fans are stuck in the '60s/'70s like the issues that were mentioned wasn't 50 years old already. It's great to reminisce but yeah.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

I don't believe anyone is buying that Mary talked to a bunch of labels and couldn't come to terms. If anything, that scenario makes Mary look bad. It makes her look like an idiot who couldn't figure out how to negotiate a deal. And let's not kid ourselves, love her as we do, but this is Mary Wilson, not Diana Ross. What the hell was there for her to negotiate? Unless every contract had crazy stipulations like Mary had to sign over her first born or she had to undergo medicinal experiments or she had to perform a concert on the moon, there really was nothing for her to turn down. If the label was going to pay her and help her put out an album, what was the problem?

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Good post. I find it hard to believe she turned down many if any offers of a recording contract. I am sure she would have taken pretty much any offer on board. It is more likely that no-one was willing to take a chance on her. Her voice does not lend itself well on pop or r&b tunes. She is better suited to jazzy numbers and standards . A cabaret singer maybe, but an r&b diva ? No way.

everyone needs a certain level of self awareness. dream vs reality. sure she was blessed and fortunate to be part of the Supremes but everyone knows nothing lasts forever. and after a certain amount of banging your head against the wall, you should realize that a career as a pop singer has either come & gone and a solo opportunity isn't going to arise.

and maybe she did come to this conclusion. After the little bit in Sup Faith about signing with a few labels in the early 80s, it doesn't sound like she did much with any other potential deals. except that little bit she did with Nightmare.

But she could have also focused on doing session work, developing a reputation in another genre like jazz, cabaret work, stage work, education, etc. And there was the oldies circuit which she was heavily involved with. I'm not personally aware of what she did or didn't do to diversify and find other opportunities. maybe she did, maybe she didn't.

I do think she probably should have reconsidered the opportunity to join the FLO's. i doubt anyone would have demanded that she devote herself 24/7 to that group - they didn't have so many gigs and recording demands that she couldn't have continued some of her solo work. and basically during this time she was still living off the Sups name and touring as a former Supreme. I've always wondered if there was still angst between her and Lynda that really prevented this

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Originally Posted by midnightman

Right. You'd think she'd be able to make music waves like Tina Turner did [[though she released her first memoirs after re-establishing herself so maybe that's not a good comparison?). But yeah I agree that Mary was thinking about books than music. She had mentioned writing a "part 2" during promotion of the Dreamgirl book.

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Tina was a once in a lifetime story, I think. Mary was never going to make those kind of waves, Dreamgirl or no Dreamgirl. A lot of the music business is pure luck vs many other factors, but I do think most of the HUGE artists of our lifetimes were uniquely talented in someway. I think Mary was/is a gifted vocalist, gorgeous, charismatic, great stage presence. But uniquely talented...I wouldn't say that. She could've made a label some nice money, but she wasn't ever going to do a Tina Turner. Lol [[And I say that as someone who prefers Mary's voice to Tina's.)

Tina was that artist that was driven and determined to get to where she got to and didn't kiss butt to do it [[honestly why didn't VH-1 do a "Driven" type documentary for her first post-Ike years?!?!).

Mary was already looked as a Motown legend.

also Tina was the lead singer of her outfit. so she had already established her voice and stage presence with an overall audience. wasn't like she was one of the Ikettes trying to land a record deal

That's true lol

She WAS the star of the show as well.

But I do think in terms of background singers of vocal groups, Mary has become one of the most famous, if not the most famous.

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Originally Posted by midnightman

That's true lol

She WAS the star of the show as well.

But I do think in terms of background singers of vocal groups, Mary has become one of the most famous, if not the most famous.

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I think that’s true

She’s pretty much treated as on a par with Martha Reeves

Walk the Line was a great, modern up to date sounding song....the record company filed Bankruptcy the day after it was released. That was a very bad blow...that CD was a far better display of Mary's abilities than the '79 LP. I was never nuts about RED HOT till I saw Mary perform it live in the mid 80's...she really worked the song. I later got the 12" single....that is the arrangement she was using live.....much better flow than the LP version....and a fire red outfit, be it a gown, balloon dress or mini skirt [[saw her do it in all 3) added to the performance. Red Hot and Warm Summer Night are the only 2 songs I consider very good on that LP...You Danced My Heart was a show stopper...too bad it wasn't released at the time...and Ian Levine's Don't Get Mad Get Even is one of the best recordings in the entire Motorcity project catalogue.

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Originally Posted by Bluebrock

And just to put a balance on this situation it could also be true to say that you cannot stand that some people do not like Mary Wilson at all! It works both ways.

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How about we don’t like negative mean spirited people

Mary Wilson and Diana Ross don’t fit that Description but which poster do you think would fit that description?

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

also Tina was the lead singer of her outfit. so she had already established her voice and stage presence with an overall audience. wasn't like she was one of the Ikettes trying to land a record deal

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Not to mention that Tina is/was a once-in-a-lifetime singer and dancer as well as force of nature.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

also Tina was the lead singer of her outfit. so she had already established her voice and stage presence with an overall audience. wasn't like she was one of the Ikettes trying to land a record deal

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Although a few of the Ikettes did land solo record deals, so another great example of that.

I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.

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Originally Posted by luke

I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.

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Yes, it was not like she did nothing but I believe Motown may have made her very wary and probably she was reluctant to just be recording like she did with Motown. Still, Bogart passed away and Atlantic did not pan out. I remember seeing her on Good Morning America when Walk The Line came out and they even said she was widely quoted for wanting a recording deal and she laughed "I was begging". Her stint on Arsenio singing Walk The Line should have peaked some interest after CEO folded and I remember her singing Bad Case Of Lovin You on Rick Dees and he was quite complimentary. I think in negotiating perhaps the two sides couldn't come to terms with both being a legend and a new soloist but I am sure there are those on here who know far more than I and that will r*d#ly say so

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Originally Posted by luke

I don’t get it. I thought it was common knowledge Neil Bogart was interested in her after Donna Summer and Atlantic had her do a demo.

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We discuss the Atlantic demos [[I think there were four). I recall Mary writing about meeting with Bogart but had forgotten the details. I also recall some folks questioning the truth of Mary's story. I just finally pulled Mary's book out to read exactly what she wrote about the Neil Bogart situation. I don't doubt her story. She may have padded it a bit with Neil's promise to make her a huge star, but I believe her when she says she was days away from signing when he passed away.

She also writes this, which is very interesting: "I met with various label executives, once even auditioning for Merv Griffin's new record company, but no luck." Prior to this statement she talks about having the Gus Dudgeon masters and how the industry had changed in a way that a singer needed a finished product in order to get a contract. So I wonder how much of the "no's" she received had to do with the demos she might have been shopping around? Many of us agree that the songs are great, Mary sounds great, and a full album of Gus' productions could have been a turning point for her post Supremes career. But the music business always was tough on Black women and feeling the need to place them in a box. Those Dudgeon songs are mostly very pop sounding. Perhaps the labels didn't want a pop singing Black woman? What if Mary had shopped around demos that had a more r&b sound to them, what might the reaction have been?

Just throwing some stuff out there. Ultimately none of us will ever know why things didn't go Mary's way, so it's all conjecture.

Also, Mary writes about this time in her life [[the early 80s) that "My self confidence wasn't at its highest..." So I guess it makes sense that this too would play a part in the decisions she made regarding the industry.

Mary said she and Neil were negotiating the deal with Casablanca when he died of cancer in 1982.

It's also possible Mary Wilson was trying to present herself as a woman who could sing anything via the Gus Dudgeon demos but labels told her to her face they couldn't sell a black woman singing rock and/or pop rock music so they turned her down.

Doesn't seem like she was trying to carve an R&B career at the time...

Mary Wilson has a wonderful Cassandra Wilson type voice. Jazz and soulful ballads was the genre of material she should have been recording at that period in time. Not rock,pop and most certainly not disco. She could have built quite a following if she had just understood the type of music that was best suited to her voice. I certainly believe record labels would have shown a little more interest if she had.
From an image perspective she often [[not always) presented herself as a kind of Diana Ross clone which did not help matters either. I think it would have been better for her to downplay the glamour/glitter image and gone for a more earthy look.

^agreed

it also didn't help that her show was essentially a rehashed Supremes show from the late 70s. many of the same arrangements and gowns. so she was touring basically as an oldies act but trying to audition for labels as a current pop star.

and as i said before, given her age she had about 3 weeks after leaving the Sups to make it before she would start being considered too old.

Time was ticking, she had locked herself in an out of date performance image, she had no current pop record in the US [[with our without the Sups).

Mary also did acting after the book...perhaps she was undecided about what performance area she should be concentrating on? She got great reviews for her work in Grandma Sylvia's Funeral and her performance in Beehive...She also got an education...moving to NY to attend classes at NYU.

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Originally Posted by gman

Mary also did acting after the book...perhaps she was undecided about what performance area she should be concentrating on? She got great reviews for her work in Grandma Sylvia's Funeral and her performance in Beehive...She also got an education...moving to NY to attend classes at NYU.

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Yeah, she appeared in a number of stage productions. I saw her in Beehive and Grandma Sylvia's Funeral. She also appeared in "Leader of the Pack", "Ardella's Soul Shack", "Vagina Monologues" to name a few.