Yes. I agree and have noted before the 'brand' was simply exhausted.
Printable View
yep. there was a "perk up" when Diana left and Jean joined. but then it seems the general public started to drift again. the music the girls were doing was superb. but they needed bigger, more dynamic updates and more often. there MAYBE was a chance when they re-emerged in 75 as "glam disco girls" but with Mary attempting in vain to be a pop/dance singer, their sloppy live shows and motown's lack of support/horrible management by Mary & pedro, it was a lost cause
Charts for Stoned Love
Cashbox top 100, Cashbox soul charts, Billboard hot 100, Billboard soul charts
STONED LOVE CB CB B B BB October 31 84 October 31 November 7 65 43 November 7 61 November 14 54 35 November 14 48 33 November 21 26 28 November 21 22 17 November 28 20 22 November 28 21 11 December 5 15 14 December 5 20 5 December 12 12 6 December 12 12 5 December 19 9 2 December 19 7 2 December 26 8 2 December 26 7 1 January 2 6 1 January 2 8 3 January 9 6 2 January 9 8 11 January 16 5 7 January 16 8 14 January 23 11 14 January 23 12 17 January 30 21 18 January 30 21 18 February 6 71 22 February 6 26 20 February 13 29 February 13 30 February 20 49
Good points. What i could never understand is how poor the choreography was with the MSC line up and later the MSS line up. They had the best part of two years to practice and make their live shows and tv appearances slick and professional. They were all over the place. Who the hell was in charge of this? Was it Mary and/or Pedro? It is little wonder these line ups floundered. They sounded great on record, but could not repeat that formula in a live setting.
Mary was indeed totally out of her comfort zone performing leads that should have gone to Scherrie, but even so they were a hot mess and that was never something you could accuse previous line ups of being. The public no longer identified with the Supremes and voted with their feet. A sad ending for the greatest female group of all time.
I agree. there was always a polish to the group before and often that was missing. Now when MSC did something like The Way We Were on Merv, it came across beautiful. I think MSS with Udo doing Walk Away was another strong moment. and the MSS Soul Train clips were hot too, for the most part.
Their performance of Come Into My Life is very well done. new sexy gowns [[that were some stupid chiffon ball gown), Mary and Scherrie execute VERY complicated background movements very well.
But then you have moments like MSC doing HMM on Tonight Show.
My guess [[and it's just a guess) is that there simply wasn't enough focus or discipline with the group leadership and management - Mary and pedro. Their focus was to spotlight Mary and continue to hang onto a tired image of the Sups. They had the misguided notion that they were going to launch her pop career. with the addition of S and S, they should have realized this was a wonderful new opportunity and sound for the group. mary should have recognized the best way for her to shine was a PART of the group. S and S should have been used in writing and production roles.
Airplay is the only thing that matters because the music then becomes part of the fabric of the nation. More airplay over more sales ANY DAY of the week.
Mary did recognize this, that's why Scherrie ended up with most of the leads during that time. At no point does Mary have more leads than Scherrie, I don't think. And in theory, Susaye should've gotten more leads, but seeing how I'm not a fan of her voice- brilliant vocalist as I believe her to be- I'm not mad about this. Susaye definitely should have been given some writing duties. She was already a hit songwriter. Has she ever said this was something she attempted for the Supremes?
Obviously Mary's abilities as a member of a group vs soloist is subjective, but it's so difficult for me to understand why she is faulted for wanting to try things on her own. At some point grown folks want to break out of the same ole same ole they've been doing since they were 13/14 years old. At what point do you stretch your wings? It was time.
Mary was always my favorite Supreme....the eye's made that decision early on.
I came on board around Love Child/TCB, so Flo was already gone and I am partial to the sweeter less sharp sound of Cindy.
If the group continued w/o Mary, I would have probably remained a fan...but a much less interested and dedicated one....I am not a fan of stratospheric high pitch voices..they are too cool for me....I like deeper, warmer tones. Scherrie was fine, 90% of Jean's leads I'm good with....there are 1 or 2 cuts on Right On and a few on the Webb LP where she is too shrill for me
If Susaye had been given more than 2 cuts per LP, I would've dropped off.
Your taste is a lot like mine in regards to high voices. It's crazy that Diana and Jean have ended up among my absolute favorite singers of all time, despite their high singing. [[Deniece Williams is another one.) I like the song "High Energy" and probably would have regardless of who sung it. I never listen to "Come Into My Life" and I really do believe that Susaye's mix with Mary and Scherrie was what threw the Supremes overboard. Scherrie was a ready made lead singer, Mary was coming into her own as a lead singer, they did not need a third lead singer, especially one who believed- and rightfully so- that she should not have to play backup singer to anybody. So the result on stage was three lead singers competing for the lead, even in harmony. Susaye may have fared better pursuing a solo deal while a non lead singer was brought in to take Cindy's spot, Cindy herself being a non lead singer.
I think what caused the demise was they got stuck with a dated image of glamour that the couldn’t manage their way out of; Labelle had 3 lead singers and hit their stride in the 70’s. It was the era of the singer songwriter and the Supremes were dated.
They had a chance at change especially with Susaye but there was no way Mary and Pedro would allow that
I dig Patsy, and Dusty really did have a very nice voice. Don't get me started on the Pointers. They are right behind the Supremes in terms of my favorite female groups, I think. And I love every last one of their voices, but especially Ruth's. There is a certain warmth to voices like these that I usually don't find in higher voices.
Labelle had also been together for eons and learned how to play their positions. [[Although there were times when Patti was all over the place.) The three original Supremes were all lead singers also, but there was never a time where they refused to blend or play the part they were given in any song. MSS was all over the place, each lady always seemed to be trying to be heard over the other two, even in the background. And as a result, IMO, it comes across like a bunch of noise, so it's not hard for me to imagine that audiences that were subjected to this in real time would've been largely put off.
As I was reminded in a thread not long ago, we have to keep in mind that where decisions were concerned, by 1976 Mary was a victim of domestic violence. This lady was getting beat up by this nut for something as simple as refusing to take his brother to see Al Green. So we can't pretend that whatever Mary said went. Pedro was running that show. Not to say Mary didn't agree with certain decisions. The following passage in Supreme Faith [[page 158) explains a lot:
"Pedro insisted I be given more leads, which created a degree of tension. Some people saw this as me just flexing my ego, but it was a matter of survival. I finally accepted the responsibility to prepare myself for future personnel changes and possibly the end of the group. After all my years in the Supremes, I was still the least known of the originals. Record buyers and club-goers assumed there were no original Supremes left...As I prepared to sing my leads, Scherrie grew very quiet, and Cindy acted strangely. We'd rehearsed for days, but wouldn't you know it, once in the studio I lost my voice! It as totally psychological; I was scared to death and felt guilty taking leads meant for Scherrie. I wasn't ready to really step out as a full lead singer."
While I often criticize Mary for always taking the safe route instead of the risks, there is something to be said about her will to just survive. Everything she had been doing since the Flo years of the group was about Mary surviving. She was always trying to figure out a way to keep her spot in the group, and then when it became clear that a day might come where there is no group, there had to be a plan in place to survive. Whether she had anything to do with that on her own, or if it was Pedro in her ear hoping to secure his own meal ticket in the event the group fizzled, it was still the best plan for Mary at that point.
If you go through youtube, you'll find a few older videos of Susaye as a Raylette. The group sounds lovely and the singers are blending.
While i agree that the live clips of MSS are a mess, i don't know that it's as simple as just saying it was 3 lead singers competing against one another.
The problem was the group wasn't being managed to control for such things. Mary's mic was always turned up too high, the staging was a disaster. their approach to live singing was what was the problem.
When they did My World Is Empty, it was stellar as the vocal parts were kept in line. Susaye and mary had gorgeous harmonies and backed up Scherrie very well
Then listen to Let Yourself Go. on the record, there's an echo effect on the word "go" which makes it ring. they couldn't do this live so that's why the girls are all shouting out "go" all over the place. horrible decision. Also the choreography was so demanding that they out of breath.
Whomever was managing the group should have had the ear and the authority to edit some of this. There are times when Susaye is doing too much ad libbing - so a manager should have been able to say "pull it back." The manager should have worked with the arrange and conductor to improve the live renditions.
i certainly do not begrudge Mary for wanting to experiment and try things out. nothing wrong with that. Clearly Diana benefited from that in the early days. But that doesn't mean that content should be released.
If they'd stuck with more of a pop formula [[like the Ivey/Woodford tracks on Sup 75), there very well could have been more of mary to do. You Turn Me Around is a lovely ballad. and, with testing and learning, she could have maybe done more with the standard pop tunes. But we do have her on leads for Give out and while it's nice enough, it pales compared to the Scherrie lead. and the 3lead version of Sha La is also fine enough but the full scherrie lead really is best. IMO
once the girls really focused on a more hard-core disco sound, scherrie was rightly doing the leads.
They absolutely needed a qualified manager. Definitely in agreement there. But Mary was a 15+ year veteran of the business, her talent at harmony very much respected by those she had worked with; the Supremes were not Scherrie's first rodeo when it came to a group; and Susaye, as you point out, was a member of the Raylettes, itself an institution. Manager or no manager, there was no excuse for the way they came across live and no explanation other than they went on stage and each lady said "fuck them, I will be heard tonight!".:cool:
We will always be in agreement that Mary's forte was not disco. But I'm of the opinion that the Supremes shouldn't have been doing disco in the first place. I get why, as it was increasingly being the go to genre if you wanted to make some noise, but that wasn't the place for the Supremes. They should have been doing stuff like the Emotions, maybe even the Pointers. The group HOT also had a number of tunes that were in line for what I think the Supremes should've been doing. "Heart Walking" managed to make some noise, and who knows how far it might have gotten with more of a push from Motown. But aside from "He's My Man" and "High Energy", Scherrie was the lead singer on singles and the group's songs still did nothing.
"Sha La Bandit"...I'm of the opposite opinion here. I don't care for Scherrie's full lead versions, but I love the shared lead version and Scherrie's verse is my fav. Go figure that.
Imagine Patti Susaye and Lynda in the same trio??? that would surely be a scream fest
haha - no i completely agree with you on that too. I'm not sure why there was so much ad libbing and all. were they trying to prove to everyone they were all powerhouse singers?
I'm assuming that back in the day, Berry would have given very specific and detailed notes/feedback on performances. If one of the girls ad libbed something or adding too much, i'm sure he put a stop to it. Also back in the day, the girls would want clips of themselves to see what did or didn't work. and of course Gil, Maurice, Cholly and others were there to advise them too.
I also thought that the girls did too much 3-part harmony. sort of hard to believe i'm saying that but i do think it. not every single song needs to be 100% 3-part harmony. especially when they're singing the same words. it can get muddy and blurred. Like on some of The Way We Were, the vocals are messy. especially that idiotic "ooo,oooo,oooo" part towards the end. They needed better arrangements
Agreed. The 60s Supremes were tightly managed and directed. While Gordy was at the head, there were many people playing positions on the Supremes team. There was obviously none of that in the 70s. It begs the question: what if Gordy had never "washed his hands" and had given the 70s Supremes as much focus as he did the 60s version? Certainly the group would've been a different live act. Gordy would've never allowed what eventually happened on stage to happen under his watch. But would it have meant more hits? Better quality music? I insist that the 70s Supremes recorded some really great stuff, especially with Jean, whose inclusion on any song is- to me- like the points you get on a test for even spelling your name correctly. It's just an automatic plus. However, when I listen to their music- singles and albums- alongside other female groups of the day, there's something lacking in most of what the Supremes recorded. There's a warmth in the overall production that I find lacking. That's the best way I can describe it. I wonder if Gordy would've saw to it that they move in a different sound direction.
I'm not a big fan of the last line ups live work....but perhaps they were going for what a lot of people say they should have [[Labelle, Emotions, Pointers)....bring up all 3 voices, looser structure...like Labelle. Nona and Sarah knew how to pull back and as a trio had years of experience singing together....MSS lacked the time and familiarity. I wasn't aware of Labelle's music other than Lady Marmalade... I was however familiar with some of Nona's mid 80's solo work [[I Sweat, Why Should I Cry?) a rock station played The Revolution and Can I Speak to You one night, and I decided to get a best of CD....I like it a lot. The Emotions I never cared for...harmony always seemed too high pitched for me...Pointers? I had Steppin' and loved it...the long Betcha Got A Chick and a great Duke Ellington medley...the Pointers had rock cred for covering Bruce's FIRE, and later had the advantage of massive MTV video exposure....the 70's Supremes were too early to benefit from cleverly staged studio track videos
maybe the group just got stale. someone just posted reviews of Diana's major productions in 76 and 78. and of course most of us have seen the 79 Boss tour video at Caesar's. not only was each one a massive production, but there's considerable variety in the content and what she's doing. clearly she sat down with the director and brainstormed ideas - the movie images on her caftan, the mimes and dancers, the lifestages in Evening with [[the focus on black female pioneers, the motown segment, then motherhood and The Point).
of course the supremes couldn't copy this but they needed something new and different. I have a bunch of bootlegs of their jean shows and, while they're enjoyable, they're frankly not all that different from one another. nor are they radically different from the shows when Diana was around.
As a solo act, Diana certainly had the flexibility to shift, change and explore new things. perhaps the group framework makes that much more challenging.
Berry invested some of his own money in Lady but the rest would have been recouped for motown against royalties. they didn't simply invest money in DR without being paid back. Sure, those funds would have helped develop a new concept and the Sups didn't have that. But the money used to develop the DR shows wasn't a gift. She paid that back. Similar to how motown invested in the J5 tours and Commodores too.
i've now completed the chart listings through Bad Weather.
some insights to share:
BW spent 14 weeks on the charts, if you include the "Bubbling Under" listings. it only reached 87 on the Top 100 and was only in the Top 100 for 1 week. but all these other weeks it sat around 101, 103, 108. it's like it was just stuck there. The girls performed it on Soul Train on 5/12, Bob Hope on 4/19 and then whenever the Kate Smith special was. it also got a full-page Billboard ad
speaking of the billboard ads, they were rather hit/miss after the initial ones. There were multiple ads for Stoned and NW. Nathan got one as did River and Everybody, which also included a plug for RO lp. I Guess Miss Man got a full page ad but none of the FJ songs nor lp got one. There were ads promoting FJ along with other Motown lps.
there was ton of promotion around Lady, no surprise.
From what I've found on-line, The Kate Smith special was syndicated in June of 1973. Considering the single was released in March, it seems that by the time that show aired, it was too late to do the single any good. But 14 weeks on the chart also seems a long time for a single that didn't hit. There must have been some interest but they couldn't quite break out.
SUPREMES
Royal Hawaiian, Falls Church, Va.
“High Energy” is not only the name of the Supremes’ latest Motown album—it also serves to describe the voltage of their present stage show as well.
The group's April 24 set here was significant in that it marked the debut of the newest Supreme, Susay Greene, former member of Stevie Wonder's back-up group Wonderlove.
While Greene's stature is petite, her talent proves to be enormous, and her vocal range very wade. Her lead vocal on “Long And Winding Road/He Ain't Heavy He's My Brother” drew several ovations.
Mary Wilson's supremacy as songstress remains evident with each tune that she caresses.
Her “Don't Let My Teardrops Bother you” from the new LP is a perfect showcase for her distinctive vocal style. Wilson also delivers a standout solo on "Song For You/How Lucky Can You Get?”
The entire act is fresher and tighter than
ever, especially on the bright uptempo sound of “I'm Gonna Let My Heart Do The Walking” which is already on national disco charts. The song allows Scherrie Payne to cut loose with full-throttle wattage on the lead, while Wilson and Greene deliver the driving choral work that the group is famous for.
The concept of the Supremes in their present form is no longer a single lead and two back-ground singers; rather three unique ladies who shine as soloists as well as a team. Previous gold including “Stoned Love,” “Someday We'll Be Together,” “Stop In The Name Of Love” were delivered with alternating leads and updated arrangements that put the set's emphasis on the present strength of the triad, rather than on that of past glory.
Embellishments including many costume changes and clever bits of choreographed material by Geoffrey Holder, who directed Broadway's “The Wiz" help give the show a theatrical flair throughout.
MARK BEGO - Billboard May 8,1976
true. Mark's devotion to Mary certainly doesn't make him an unbiased source. Still it is good that he got some additional publicity into Billboard
Also i never knew Susaye [[or any of the women for that matter) did Long Winding Road live.