Revisiting the “Return to love tour” 20 years later

No backgrounds on the mary/Eddie version.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

you could be right about Mary - given the 70s recordings. but might not be if you were to count song by song. Diana is one just about every 60s recording. I think the A's backed up Mary on Our Day Will Come and they backed Flo on Silent and O Holy. And the duet version of Can't Take My Eyes - are there any background vocals? can't remember.

A lot of the earlier 70s material though is Jean and session singers. For instance, Time and Love. And i'm not sure if M and C are also on tracks like Then We Can Try It Again and Is There A Place. M is definitely on all of Floy Joy, Jimmy Webb and all of the Scherrie years.

But i think there are simply more recordings over the 9 years that DR was in the group

again, haven't sat to count but i think in terms of recordings [[including unreleased) the count would go

Diana
Mary
Flo
Jean
Cindy
Scherrie
Barbara
Lynda - 10 tracks on Jimmy [[she's not on Once in Morning), BW, Soft Days and I'll wait a lifetime
Susaye - 8 tracks on MS&S, 4 tracks on HE [[HE, Walking and then backing on Till Boat Sails, Don't want to lose you)

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Originally Posted by blackguy69

No backgrounds on the mary/Eddie version.

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that's what i thought too. didn't have it here at my desk and was too lazy to get up lolol

and the solo version - did it have backgrounds? i thought so but can't remember either

Most of Jean led stuff that didn’t have Mary’s or Cindy’s voices were the unreleased material.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

you could be right about Mary - given the 70s recordings. but might not be if you were to count song by song. Diana is one just about every 60s recording. I think the A's backed up Mary on Our Day Will Come and they backed Flo on Silent and O Holy. And the duet version of Can't Take My Eyes - are there any background vocals? can't remember.

A lot of the earlier 70s material though is Jean and session singers. For instance, Time and Love. And i'm not sure if M and C are also on tracks like Then We Can Try It Again and Is There A Place. M is definitely on all of Floy Joy, Jimmy Webb and all of the Scherrie years.

But i think there are simply more recordings over the 9 years that DR was in the group

again, haven't sat to count but i think in terms of recordings [[including unreleased) the count would go

Diana
Mary
Flo
Jean
Cindy
Scherrie
Barbara
Lynda - 10 tracks on Jimmy [[she's not on Once in Morning), BW, Soft Days and I'll wait a lifetime
Susaye - 8 tracks on MS&S, 4 tracks on HE [[HE, Walking and then backing on Till Boat Sails, Don't want to lose you)

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Originally Posted by monicarivers

Not true. Mary is/has been the keeper of the Supremes flame for the last several decades. She is perhaps Motown’s best ambassador. I’ve seen her shows and I think she excels beautifully at slower jazz/R&B sizzlers that are better suited to her voice.

Like the rest of the world, I wish she had been part of RTL.

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i don’t think he reads things with an open mind or he wouldn’t have said that. I’ve been posting all along there was “blame” to go around.

What has Mary done, exactly, to become the keeper of the flame that Diana or the Flos have not done? I ask because I don’t see it that way. To me, Mary has clung to the Supremes for survival and not as some sort of lifelong mission to preserve The memory of the group. She trashed the memory of the group and both of her books for profit, trying valiantly to get a solo career out of it. She was, at best, a bad sport about RTL causing even more negative public discourse about the group. To millions of people, The Supremes are a group of women who are fighting… Mary has left that legacy. She certainly has, again for profit, curated the dresses and turn them into Living Pop culture history - But again, if there was no money in it for her, she would not have done it. She has continued to sing. supreme songs in her act, as have all former Supremes. Millions more people have seen diana ross singer Supremes songs since 1977 then they have mary wilson. Don’t get me wrong Mary has certainly valiantly kept the name Supremes in the public eye and her limited capacity, But no one has ever pointed out to me what she has done above and beyond with diana or The Flos have done. I’ve posted this question before and never had a response. I believe it is because no one can support the statement.

in just about every RTL thread, I ask the Legimate question, “why is it OK for mary wilson to tour with any two women she wants to and call them the Supremes, but it is not OK for diana ross to tour with two Motown signed, recorded and toured Supremes? Even the andantes Have More street cred as Supremes than the different people Mary has picked up with and passed off as Supremes. But no one ever answers that question either. They just want to say that mary should’ve been on the tour but do not want to address the double standard.

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Originally Posted by mwmr

pmsl... Mary sings on more Supremes songs in 17 years than any member and certainly more than Scherrie and def ‘screecher’ Lynda ... who’s contribution to the group was gone in blink of an eye

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Mary has sung on the most tracks for sure, but so what? On many tracks no one even knows she’s there. And back in the day, when she was not used on many tracks she was not missed at all. She has admitted that she chose not to record on love child.

I don’t understand why you’re bringing this up what is your point?

Lynda was not in the group for a long time, but she brought a lot with her and made the group better. She was a true musician, and had a lot of heavy duty connections in the business. It was lynda they could pick up the phone and call Stevie wonder and ask him to write and produce a song for Her group and have it done… He didn’t do it for Mary Jean Cindy or Susaye or Sherry. She was classy, educated, had a strong voice and enough talent to sing lead on her very first gig with the group. And she sounded great. The fact that she chose to leave the group that does not lessen the many contributions she brought to the group while she was there. She handled the interviews on television much better than Jean or Mary. And is really the only one that handled her lines well on variety shows. Mary was very high on Lynda and did not at all want For her to leave.

The reason it is okay for Mary to tour with 2 no name Supremes as back up is that she has next to no national or mass following so no one cares.

It’s quite different if you are Diana Ross

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Originally Posted by jobeterob

The reason it is okay for Mary to tour with 2 no name Supremes as back up is that she has next to no national or mass following so no one cares.

It’s quite different if you are Diana Ross

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but she’s not trying to pass off no names, she’s using bonfire real life Motown contracted Supremes. Mary had every opportunity to travel and tour with real Supremes with the name, but she wouldn’t do it because she didn’t want to share the leads. She could even have joined the Flos, but didn’t want to. So she had her opportunities to two or three or supreme she just chose not to which is fine and that’s her right.

The way I see it, Diana is offering three real Supremes…… So real as a matter of fact that mary wilson publicly asked the public to please except them and give them a chance. Read Soul magazine article: “mary wilson introduces the newest supreme “ Which was Lynda. No I’m not saying that the original lineup wouldn’t be better, of course it would. It might not sound as good, but they have made plans to augment the sound. But they weren’t able to come together and so, The original main voice and star of the Supremes with to Motown signed real Supremes, certainly trumps mary wilson and two nobody’s, the Flos or even mary wilson with the Flos.

and remember, not long after Pedro and Maria got caught using the supreme‘s name without permission in South America, Mary asked to come back into the group and Susaye and Sherry both said yes, But Pedro stays home. Merry could’ve been back with the Supremes in the fall of 1977 but chose not to because they refused to have Pedro have anything to do with the group. So that is on Mary. So that’s twice Mary has turned down returning to the group and both times she wanted to do it, but only on her terms. And all of that is fine, everybody should do everything on the terms that they are comfortable with, but I don’t see how Diana using Sherry and lynda deserves to be called a fake Supremes , sub-premes, replacements or any Of the other euphemisms mary used to describe the former singers that she wanted desperately the public to except the Supremes when she was in the group. She let the public to believe that Diana was trying to pass off fake supreme is as real Supremes with that was not true. The fact of the matter is if the public was so insistent on seeing Mary, why did that not translate to the public wanting to see Mary without the Supremes? Her sophisticated ladies tour tanked. Nothing has happened in the last 20 years to suggest that the general public or the even the Supremes loving public had any sort of affinity for Mary because she’s been a very minor and box office draw. I firmly believe that If Mary had never said a word about the lineup, everything would’ve gone smoothly.

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

but she’s not trying to pass off no names, she’s using bonfire real life Motown contracted Supremes. Mary had every opportunity to travel and tour with real Supremes with the name, but she wouldn’t do it because she didn’t want to share the leads. She could even have joined the Flos, but didn’t want to. So she had her opportunities to two or three or supreme she just chose not to which is fine and that’s her right.

The way I see it, Diana is offering three real Supremes…… So real as a matter of fact that mary wilson publicly asked the public to please except them and give them a chance. Read Soul magazine article: “mary wilson introduces the newest supreme “ Which was Lynda. No I’m not saying that the original lineup wouldn’t be better, of course it would. It might not sound as good, but they have made plans to augment the sound. But they weren’t able to come together and so, The original main voice and star of the Supremes with to Motown signed real Supremes, certainly trumps mary wilson and two nobody’s, the Flos or even mary wilson with the Flos.

and remember, not long after Pedro and Maria got caught using the supreme‘s name without permission in South America, Mary asked to come back into the group and Susaye and Sherry both said yes, But Pedro stays home. Merry could’ve been back with the Supremes in the fall of 1977 but chose not to because they refused to have Pedro have anything to do with the group. So that is on Mary. So that’s twice Mary has turned down returning to the group and both times she wanted to do it, but only on her terms. And all of that is fine, everybody should do everything on the terms that they are comfortable with, but I don’t see how Diana using Sherry and lynda deserves to be called a fake Supremes , sub-premes, replacements or any Of the other euphemisms mary used to describe the former singers that she wanted desperately the public to except the Supremes when she was in the group. She let the public to believe that Diana was trying to pass off fake supreme is as real Supremes with that was not true. The fact of the matter is if the public was so insistent on seeing Mary, why did that not translate to the public wanting to see Mary without the Supremes? Her sophisticated ladies tour tanked. Nothing has happened in the last 20 years to suggest that the general public or the even the Supremes loving public had any sort of affinity for Mary because she’s been a very minor and box office draw. I firmly believe that If Mary had never said a word about the lineup, everything would’ve gone smoothly.

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I think if it weren't for Mary's public campaign against the RTL tour, it would have most likely continued with moderate success. Mary's PR work on how degrading and offensive this was simply poisoned the whole affair. People already had a somewhat negative diva image of Diana and this added fuel to the fire.

Had they not had to contend with all the negative, Diana could have done more to show the public that these two women were in the group for years, and had been for years touring as FLOs. it could have been easily explained that both Diana solo and FLOS have been touring for years, often running into each other on the road, and decided to pair up. That would have worked better IMO than "reunion".

Maniac - and don't forget Motown had some interest in reforming the MSC lineup in the early 80s. Mary insisted she get all the leads and obviously Motown didn't want that.

i wonder if Pedro had never been on the scene, if mary might have stayed with the group. certainly the animosity would have been greatly reduced. I'm also assuming he was the one primarily poisoning Mary's mind to think she could go solo and be a pop star a la Diana. I don't deny mary is talented but as a traditional pop star - no. had she stayed with the group, they could have continued on much longer

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

Maniac - and don't forget Motown had some interest in reforming the MSC lineup in the early 80s. Mary insisted she get all the leads and obviously Motown didn't want that.

i wonder if Pedro had never been on the scene, if mary might have stayed with the group. certainly the animosity would have been greatly reduced. I'm also assuming he was the one primarily poisoning Mary's mind to think she could go solo and be a pop star a la Diana. I don't deny mary is talented but as a traditional pop star - no. had she stayed with the group, they could have continued on much longer

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i think you’re right. Pedro is not just a chickenshit wife beater, he was also a supreme opportunist who ground the group into the dust. Mary should’ve apologized to the girls for allowing him to destroy the group. Imagine having a man with absolutely no connection to show business whatsoever managing one of the most iconic groups of all time with no experience at all. it’s outrageous. But of course, she put all the blame on Motown. Mary never owns up to her BS. Even that funny story about the South American bookings in 1977. She didn’t want to tell the truth so she made up that story about Motown booking them, without telling them, And then not allowing them to perform the gigs. Such a stupid thing to say because if Motown did something like that, they were both liable for all kinds of lawsuits and would have a hell of a time in the industry booking their acts in the future If a high profile tour like this one would get embroiled in such a mess. She just makes up anything she wants to support whatever she wants to say. Certainly the group would’ve been better off without him being involved. It’s hard to say what would’ve happened but it couldn’t have been any worse.

yeah i was always suspect of the SA tour story. never really believe what she was saying in Sup Faith about it. the more likely story is Pedro or Mary's Sup Inc booked it and was so disorganized they forgot all about it or else as it was becoming clear that Mary's solo plans were not being activity planned out by Motown, they became desperate for money and booked it anyway

There are so many "what ifs" during the 70s and especially the Scherrie years. many different potential paths to have explored. And it seems like Mary just continued to make so many mistakes. I realize she was being left to her own devices but some of this just seems like common sense

Just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t meant that was presented to her at that moment. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. It’s easy to sit and judge what happened over time. 95 % of us on this forum wasn’t there and we’re getting second, third or fourth hand knowledge of certain stories. Just remember someone telling a story from their viewpoint doesn’t mean that’s the way it was and I’m not just talking about Mary.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

yeah i was always suspect of the SA tour story. never really believe what she was saying in Sup Faith about it. the more likely story is Pedro or Mary's Sup Inc booked it and was so disorganized they forgot all about it or else as it was becoming clear that Mary's solo plans were not being activity planned out by Motown, they became desperate for money and booked it anyway

There are so many "what ifs" during the 70s and especially the Scherrie years. many different potential paths to have explored. And it seems like Mary just continued to make so many mistakes. I realize she was being left to her own devices but some of this just seems like common sense

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Also about that reunion of MSC, Motown wanted Scherrie to do all leads.

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Originally Posted by blackguy69

Just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t meant that was presented to her at that moment. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. It’s easy to sit and judge what happened over time. 95 % of us on this forum wasn’t there and we’re getting second, third or fourth hand knowledge of certain stories. Just remember someone telling a story from their viewpoint doesn’t mean that’s the way it was and I’m not just talking about Mary.

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agreed - we're all having to speculate here. with other parts of the "supremes story" we have multiple sources to go off of and sort of cobble together our interpretation. for much of the 70s, we really on have Mary's version of things. Jean did her dvd but didn't reveal too much. sure there have been some small stories or things shared from the others but not tons. So that basically leaves us to try and fill in and interpret the best we can

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Originally Posted by jobeterob

Tracee is a huge star in her own right with a virtual reach far beyond those of her Mom or any other Motown personality

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Who? What's a 'virtual reach'? Is this like the Kardashian 'influencers' who have not at all contributed to society or culture [[other than in a money-grabbing way?)

It's probably too sad if social media 'influencers' are actually 'the sound of young america' these days.

I fear the reach of social influencers is beyond what was possible in the Sound of Young America days

Tracee has a large following - far greater than Diana

Sadly maybe, I know nothing about the Kardashians

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Originally Posted by jobeterob

I fear the reach of social influencers is beyond what was possible in the Sound of Young America days

Tracee has a large following - far greater than Diana

Sadly maybe, I know nothing about the Kardashians

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In the days of Motown, parents said the same thing about its music in derogatory screeds. I could go into the microfishe and dig up all the op-eds from parents in local newspapers about "corrupting the youth" and other pearl-clutching diatribes.

Don't repeat that mistake. Social media is the media of the young today. Like it or not, that's how you reach them. Wanna get some young people enthused about Motown? Upload a clip of a song to TikTok and they'll use it for their posts. Ain't No Mountain was there for a while. I had a couple of great chats about who, what, and when that song was famous. More dialogue happened that way than by condemning the way they know the world. I know we could say the thing about Presley, BeBop, or Goodman...

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Originally Posted by blackguy69

Just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t meant that was presented to her at that moment. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. It’s easy to sit and judge what happened over time. 95 % of us on this forum wasn’t there and we’re getting second, third or fourth hand knowledge of certain stories. Just remember someone telling a story from their viewpoint doesn’t mean that’s the way it was and I’m not just talking about Mary.

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very true, but there’s the common sense factor to consider. Why, when itineraries are updated Consistently for 17 years for dozens of acts, would Motown fail this one time, after she left, sue her, and she soon asks to return? Why would Motown book an act that no longer existed AND then fail to mention it to the act? Why would Mary be responsible for Motown’s mistake when she had already left the group? Surely no artist can be held accountable for actions by a company that they had no functioning relationship with. Why wouldn’t the current Supremes be responsible? Why would Motown risk ruining their rep with a bad tour?

you’re right. No,one can be sure. However, there is such a thing as common sense and track history. Her story, to me is preposterous. It’s like the detective says in psycho shortly before he is chopped up, “if it doesn’t gel, it isn’t aspic.......And this isn’t gelling.“

We know that Mary is not a slave to the truth because there are many things in her books that have proven to be untrue, and while this will never be proven to be untrue, either will the Easter bunny.

Ur right about common sense but like in life [[and pardon my French) stranger shit does happen. We can assume all we want to but short of being there, We don’t know and have to go from there.

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

very true, but there’s the common sense factor to consider. Why, when itineraries are updated Consistently for 17 years for dozens of acts, would Motown fail this one time, after she left, sue her, and she soon asks to return? Why would Motown book an act that no longer existed AND then fail to mention it to the act? Why would Mary be responsible for Motown’s mistake when she had already left the group? Surely no artist can be held accountable for actions by a company that they had no functioning relationship with. Why wouldn’t the current Supremes be responsible? Why would Motown risk ruining their rep with a bad tour?

you’re right. No,one can be sure. However, there is such a thing as common sense and track history. Her story, to me is preposterous. It’s like the detective says in psycho shortly before he is chopped up, “if it doesn’t gel, it isn’t aspic.......And this isn’t gelling.“

We know that Mary is not a slave to the truth because there are many things in her books that have proven to be untrue, and while this will never be proven to be untrue, either will the Easter bunny.

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And I’ve asked this question before and still didn’t get a clear answer , what in her books are proven untrue

I don’t think Motown was necessarily booking them at that stage of their careers - wasn’t it Pedro booking them? lord help them..,

I think Pedro was booking them but I’m certain it had to go through Motown’s agency so they could get their cut.

Blackguy69 LOL! "This horse is beyond dead, it's dog food." LOL!

Not much. Being raised in Detroit, the only part of the book that was interesting was Mary’s early life and the initial stages of the groups formation. Everything else was well known re the dynamics of the group. Ross had a chance to be interviewed for the book and turned it down. Mary has never been sued regarding anything she said in her books. Mary, Flo and Cindy were basically Berrys stage props for Ross. Berry and Diane had the power so the other girls were f****d. Mary had a choice. Quit and take her winnings and go to College or try to enjoy the fairy tail the best she could. Kudos to her for capitalizing on her journey. I have met her several times with no complaints. Her infectious laugh is a pleasure. After Ross said something to the effect that they weren’t friends, I would have walked away and never pursued another word with her.

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

Mary has sung on the most tracks for sure, but so what? On many tracks no one even knows she’s there. And back in the day, when she was not used on many tracks she was not missed at all. She has admitted that she chose not to record on love child.

I don’t understand why you’re bringing this up what is your point?

Lynda was not in the group for a long time, but she brought a lot with her and made the group better. She was a true musician, and had a lot of heavy duty connections in the business. It was lynda they could pick up the phone and call Stevie wonder and ask him to write and produce a song for Her group and have it done… He didn’t do it for Mary Jean Cindy or Susaye or Sherry. She was classy, educated, had a strong voice and enough talent to sing lead on her very first gig with the group. And she sounded great. The fact that she chose to leave the group that does not lessen the many contributions she brought to the group while she was there. She handled the interviews on television much better than Jean or Mary. And is really the only one that handled her lines well on variety shows. Mary was very high on Lynda and did not at all want For her to leave.

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I’m bringing this up as it’s a follow on from a post in this thread from sup fan .. maybe you missed it?

personally I think you over egg Lynda’s contribution and value during her brief tenure with the group ... Certainly they’re we’re no hits while she was there.. but a top 40 hit after by MSC
and l don’t buy that only she could ask Stevie.. Mary was at Motown from virtually the beginning.. unlike Lynda .. and knew most of the artists... maybe she didn’t like to ask... Martha knew him better but he didn’t produce for her until late 60s

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Originally Posted by mwmr

I’m bringing this up as it’s a follow on from a post in this thread from sup fan .. maybe you missed it?

personally I think you over egg Lynda’s contribution and value during her brief tenure with the group ... Certainly they’re we’re no hits while she was there.. but a top 40 hit after by MSC
and l don’t buy that only she could ask Stevie.. Mary was at Motown from virtually the beginning.. unlike Lynda .. and knew most of the artists... maybe she didn’t like to ask... Martha knew him better but he didn’t produce for her until late 60s

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Barbara Martin made more of a contribution to the Supremes history than Lynda Laurence. Lynda is Norma Lewis.......

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Originally Posted by mwmr

I’m bringing this up as it’s a follow on from a post in this thread from sup fan .. maybe you missed it?

personally I think you over egg Lynda’s contribution and value during her brief tenure with the group ... Certainly they’re we’re no hits while she was there.. but a top 40 hit after by MSC
and l don’t buy that only she could ask Stevie.. Mary was at Motown from virtually the beginning.. unlike Lynda .. and knew most of the artists... maybe she didn’t like to ask... Martha knew him better but he didn’t produce for her until late 60s

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agreed that given her limited time, she was only able to do so much. since then, she's discussed the fact that she was trying/hoping the group could modernize a bit. become more contemporary with all singing lead. of course that obviously didn't happen. Seems like Lynda said that she and Stevie were still pals and so she'd be happy to ask him to write something for them. sure anyone could have asked him and he was certainly working with other artists. his recent contract renegotiation though had made it easier [[and probably more profitable for him) to producer other artists. so timing was right.

I wonder if he'd hoped to use Lynda on some leads for this project.

also there are little hints here and there of what they could have done had the JML lineup lasted longer. Lynda has a higher voice than Cindy so that allows more upper note work in the background. you get the higher note emphasis like what Marlene could do in the Andantes and with Love Child. it's a nice effect.

on the Japan live set, Lynda does some great little ad libs and all, like when they're finishing up Ladder. Or that wonderful Wooooo slide she does at the 2nd bridge in Tossin' and Turnin'. love it!! plus her ad libs in BW

While she and Susaye are quite different singers, had there been more time and recordings, Producers could have used Lynda in the background similarly to what the Hollands did with Susaye on Driving Wheel and the like. Again, a very different sound and approach than when Cindy was in the group.