if you listen through all of the Meet tracks, this really has an "odd" sound to the bg vocals. I don't think they were using a different group of girls at this time but the sound is totally different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwNLlgGEN-Y
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if you listen through all of the Meet tracks, this really has an "odd" sound to the bg vocals. I don't think they were using a different group of girls at this time but the sound is totally different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwNLlgGEN-Y
You never know who might have stepped in for a session or two. The bg vocals certainly have a different sound to them, as you say. I can't really pick out Mary or Flo [[I don't know Barbara's voice well enough). Raynoma Gordy produced it. Maybe she joined in or brought in some of her friends.
That is definitely the Supremes behind Diana. Y'all really don't hear Florence? And Barbara is pretty clear on the "dut, dut, dut"'s. And Barbara also does the spoken part. There was another thread about the song sometime ago, I think, or whatever the subject was, I commented about how "17" being a rare case in which Barbara really meshes with the others in the background. Usually her voice comes through the harmony as the voice that is doing it's own thing. But it's interesting that Raynoma is the producer and this particular song has a different harmony approach than most- if not all- of the other 4 Supremes recordings up to that point. With Raymona being a female vocalist, one said to have had perfect pitch, she may have been in a better position to direct the girls in a better harmony than the men who produced them. That's my take. But I'm surprised there's any question about the voices behind Diana on this one.
“Seventeen” is very different, stylistically, from the rest of the album. The background vocals are rather “flutey,” while on the other tracks they’re much less so, and some verge on being rather shrill, so something evidently was done to sweeten the harmonies. I never heard those same harmonies on any other Supremes tracks so it does cause me to wonder what manipulation was undertaken. I guess you’d have to ask someone who was there.
Ran - i agree that motown wasn't into the habit at this time of replacing BG singers like they would later. But the style and sound of 17 is totally different from any other track of that period.
i realize that the recording data is VERY incomplete from these early years. according to our EE booklets, 17 was recorded on the same day as Heavenly Father, Save Me a Star and You're Gonna Come to Me. Motown wasn't doing multi-tracks at this time so i don't believe it was the band being recorded. most likely everyone was there and they recorded the whole thing
so listen to Save Me a Star and 17.
wildly different BG sounds. listen to the intonation issues on Star and the lack of blending among DMB. then listen to 17. the sound is so blended it almost sounds weird.
We agree about the sound. As I pointed out, I made that observation months [[or years?) ago in this forum. My point now is that Raynoma as producer may have made all the difference. She also, as Reese points out, may have joined them, which would have made for a tighter sound. At that point it would be four background voices, with three of them being able to keep Barbara's voice in check. Yet still, Barbara is pretty audible on the "dut, dut, dut"'s.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
It would be really interesting if George or Andy can provide any additional information. I would love to suggest that Mary and Diana do the same, but...:p
I think Raynoma originally wrote the song for her girl group The Teen Queens. Maybe she pulled them in to round out the sound, you never know.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
That said, it would be nice if Diana added her thoughts to the expanded editions. George and Andy have said that she's aware of them and I've seen a photo of she and Andy posing with the newly-released A GO GO.
But I'd love to hear her recollections of certain songs or sessions. Way back in 1970, she did a great interview with SOUL ILLUSTRATED and shared a lot of memories of her career up until that point, and in surprising detail. But I suppose memories can fade as well. HE'S SEVENTEEN might be one of her old faves or a song she doesn't even remember recording.
interesting point about the Teen Queens. maybe they were in the sessionQuote:
Originally Posted by reese
if you go through all of the 60 and 61 tracks, nearly every one of them has a rougher BG vocal sound. until you get to Your Heart Belongs. and suddenly it's a very smooth and elegant bg. so prior to 17, the girls did a dozen or so songs. all with this more youthful and rough tone. then 17 comes along and it's a very odd transition in sound. That same day they do 2 more tracks but back to their rougher tone. You get this rougher tone on other subsequent tracks
then you get DJ Shows which is boisterous but less rough. Is Barbara on DJ? haven't listened to it for a while. i though there were just 2 BG vocalists - M and F
then in early Dec they do "Your Heart" with such a smooth and glossy tone
and on the same day as Your Heart, they do The Tears which is back to their rougher tone.
Maybe Barbara didn't make that session. I only hear Mary and Flo on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Maybe one of the Teen Queens. It doesn't sound like there's a bunch of voices in the background. My money is on Raynoma joining them, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by reese
I'm so over Diana's inattentiveness to just about anything Supreme. I find it difficult to believe that Andy or George have never attempted to get her input. I find it far more believable that she has simply declined and I do feel some type a way about it. Her thoughts and recollections are as important as anyone else's when it comes to learning more about their career at the time.
I would love to read that Soul Illustrated article.
If you listen to the version of "Come To Me" recorded during the session, the girls harmonies are probably the tightest it had ever been previously with Barbara. Of course "Star" and "Heavenly" will sound different from the other two because Diana is in the harmony and Florence is not. I wonder what the lineup was during the session and if what they did on "You're Gonna Come To Me" was a carryover from the sound they achieved with Raynoma on "17". Something to ponder.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
As for "DJ Shows", Barbara is not on it. Even in Mary's book, when she recalls the session, she only mentions Flo, Diana and herself.
I'm sure George and Andy have asked for her participation but she has declined. Maybe she feels she'll leave that to Mary. It is sad because as you said, her recollections are as important as anyone else's. After all, it is her legacy as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
I'm not even looking for anything deep or controversial. In 1981, she did an interview with Andy Warhol and mentioned that the Supremes used to be on bills with Otis Redding. Then she mentioned how much her mother loved Otis. Something like that is just so cool to me.
I agree with you on all those points. I think Diana has for the most part turned the legacy of the Supremes over to Mary Wilson and I think Mary has done an outstanding job of keeping the legacy of the group alive. I think Diana approaches her time with the Supremes the same way she approach her acting career, she acknowledges it, because it was an important part of her career, but it's not the only thing she's done in her career either.Quote:
Originally Posted by reese
As a FAN of both The Supremes and DR, I would love a musical interview with her where someone goes album by album if not track by track to get her thoughts, reflections and memories of her recording career and the different producers she has worked with and what songs stand out to her or had particular meaning.
Bluebrock has shared some wonderful memories of his time working with Diana in the 90s. I don't want to speak for him, but my impression is that Diana has limited memory of much of her recording material.
I think the fact is she views it as a job. And as with any job, she might not bother to commit to memory every single detail. I know if i were to sit down and dictate my memories on some of my own professional activities [[how exciting! lolol) i'd struggle to remember some of the marketing initiatives i did in 1992 or 2003. Certainly some big projects i'd remember but even there i might get some details mixed up.
For Diana, i think it's similar. they were doing SO much during the 60s that it's likely she doesn't remember a lot of the specifics. sure taping TCB, first show at Copa or maybe the Funny Girl project might be pivotal enough events that she has a few fun or interesting tidbits on that.
As for Mary, she's specifically tried to research and aggregate memories and stories for her books. And even there, some eagle-eyed fans have noted discrepancies or errors.
Die-hard fans are going to have probably so much more details memorized than any of these ladies
When she was on “The Voice” I was surprised at her detailed recollection of Otis Redding. I think it was him. Either him or Sam Cooke. I remember thinking damn, the stories she could tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by reese
I like to think that most of us are over the controversies. It has marred the Supremes legacy and, IMO, one of, if not the biggest, contributing factors to why the group doesn't get the credit it deserves. I'm way more interested in the creativity of the music, ideas about the group's show and image, and even stuff like the Otis anecdote. In the Hollands' book, they mention that Florence and Diana were in a car accident that ended them both up in the hospital in 1967. First I've seen this mentioned. I wonder what happened? But I sure could tell you about Diana hitting someone upside the head with a hatbox...Quote:
Originally Posted by reese
Diana Ross was an artist. I don't believe for one moment that she approached her career as just a job. Nobody remembers every single detail of their life and I don't think anyone expects Diana to be any different, especially at this stage of her life. But she has memories and definitely has something to add to the picture. The fact that she apparently won't even pass these along to us fans that are still purchasing the music I'm certain she's receiving royalties for, is a bit of a slap in the face. Mary's claim to fame is the Supremes. Diana's claim to fame is the Supremes and her awesome solo career. I think it's commendable that she allows Mary to reign as Queen Supreme, showing up to all things Supremes related without the attention soaker that would be Diana's presence at the same event. No problem. But memories for an expanded booklet? Come on now lady. We deserve better than this cold shoulder.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Has anyone else noticed how lazy Diana's vocal is for both "17" and the first version of "You're Gonna Come To Me"? At a couple points she mumbles in both songs. Usually she's always been so good at lyrical expression, but she was half assing these.
For whatever reason I never heard this song before. I clearly hear Florence all over it, and I also hear Mary in some places. Mary tends to blend in but she takes the edge off Florence's vocals. All that being said, I think Diana sounds TERRIBLE here. Flat. DR eventually grew into her role as a lead singer but on these early cuts--all I can say is Berry must be a true visionary to have heard something special in that voice. I am not hearing it on this cut.
I don’t think Diana “allows” Mary. I think Mary would be happy if Diana showed an interest in the Supremes.
until very recently, she frankly didn't focus on the past. Return to Love was the first real time she attempted to recreate the supremes' music. Otherwise it was always just a medley and then maybe 1 abbreviated song. Even in Evening with DR, it was rushed. she did at least do a hefty "motown memories" segment which was nice. and she did more Sup content in the medley than usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
But listen to the Caesar's palace set. she did the basic hit medley from her DRATS era. but did a HUGE amount of Lady content. clearly she only included the sups medley because she just has to.
her shows always contained some basic element - a sups medley, a couple solo hits from 70s and 80s like Upside Down, Why do fools, Theme mahogany. some Lady content. some songs from her current LP and then closing with Mountain. But she's never really focus on her past or done a retrospective. until the 2000s. and even that is just including more of the big hits like Boss, Missing You, etc.
some people are just not sentimental about things. they don't see the need or value in reminiscing and all. and because of that mindset, they probably don't focus on details or events from the past. so if you asked them "let me about the development of the TCB project or what were your thoughts on Baby It's Me" you'll get a bit of a blank stare. they haven't thought about it in, literally, decades and they're not the type to focus on each and every detail
i think part of the fun of these early songs is that there is SO much variance. Diana herselv ironically had just turned 17 a few months prior to this recording lol. naturally there's going to be issues with the vocals, for any and all of the girls. their voices simply don't have the discipline. and 17 is a little tricky of a lead melody, in terms of the jumps. the tune moves up, down and around the scale. so those attacks are going to be the problem spots, which many of them are here.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyC
she is singing much more reserved here than on something like I Want A Guy. Guy is just a hideous tune but you can tell Diana is singing it as if it were some classical masterpiece lolol. she's out of tune there some too but much more passionate. Who knows what was happening here. if Raynoma instructed her to do a smoother, more "romantic" sound? if the girls had all been out drinking too much the evening before? if she didn't like working for a woman? who knows lolol
I'm going to pick that Raynoma was guiding her and trying to instruct her. this was the 15th tune the girls recorded which is sort of a lot but also not. if a producer is saying "sing it like you're feeling XXXX or YYYYY" a 17 year old may or may not be able to comprehend this properly. but through trial and error, things start to click
i played in orchestra and once we were doing Beethoven's 5th Symphony. the transition from the 3rd to the 4th movement is tricky, as you go from this quiet sort of ebb and flow to this huge, massive sound at the start of that 4th movement. being kids, once we hit the downbeat of the movement we were all excited cuz now it's big and loud! but the conductor stopped us and explain "yes, the score says FF but it's not just super loud. it's REGAL. so let's try it again." and this time we got it!!
it's about learning these different musical expressions.
Allow- give the necessary time or opportunity forQuote:
Originally Posted by luke
Mary does not get time for Mary Wilson solo star because her post Supremes career, musically speaking, has resulted in zero successes. Mary gets to hold court regarding the Supremes and take the spotlight. She cannot do that if Diana Ross is beside her. By minding her business, Diana Ross allows Mary to mind the Supremes, as in give her the necessary time and opportunity to hold the spotlight. And that's gracious of her, IMO.
My problem isn't really her stage show. As an artist, especially one of her status, she's free to focus on any aspect of her career that she wants to, although I would say it sucks for the fans who purchase tickets and don't get to hear favorites. I'm talking specifically about these expanded editions, of which the booklets are mini histories of the group and it's work. For Diana not to provide the historical knowledge that she surely has about this period, knowing how much hard work the guys put into producing these collections, and we fans spending our good money on them, I can't respect that attitude. If she ever came out and said "I just don't remember a lot of stuff from back then", I'd probably accuse her of being a liar.:cool: But I'd have to give her the benefit of the doubt. She is approaching 80 after all. But I don't buy it. She has memories, she just isn't interested in recalling this aspect of her career even to the delight and education of her fans and that sucks. Maybe someday soon somebody, somewhere, will be able to get her to go in depth about these times because once Diana is gone, so is everything she knows and didn't tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
The reason why Diana became a Primette was because Paul Williams heard her sing and thought she was good. Milton Jenkins heard her and came to the same conclusion. Diana's voice, along with Florence's, was the reason why they won the big talent contest. Richard Morris heard Diana's voice and wrote a song specifically for her to record. Before there was a Berry Gordy, there were people who thought Diana Ross was a talented singer.
All the girls were rough around the ages during that early period and there were definitely songs they shined on and songs they didn't. To me "I Want A Guy" isn't a bad vocal, but it's so damn nasal and whiny...I just can't imagine anyone loving it. Diana mumbles through parts of "17" and "You're Gonna Come To Me". But on "Never Again" Diana is compelling, her voice clear and distinctive, she sounds like she is actually living the lyrics. And she rips through "Those DJ Shows" in a way that I don't think we had yet heard her.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Florence's leads on "Save Me A Star" and "Heavenly Father" are beautiful simply because she has a beautiful voice. But honestly she adds nothing to them. Mary was definitely the better fit for those two. The version of "Hey Baby" that ended up on Flo's cd back in 2002 is the superior version of the song. She sounds more in command and tuned in than the other two versions where her voice comes across as very unpolished. Compare that with the way she rocked "Buttered Popcorn".
I might venture the one member who was consistent was Mary. There's an alternate take of "Pretty Baby" that I have somewhere, and I assume it was the first take because Mary isn't as polished as she is on the other. But aside from that, Mary's voice seemed to be a perfect fit for those early songs. The group may have found success in those early days had Mary gotten the attention from Motown that Diana and Flo received. She has a Shirelles type sound, but I'd offer she had a bigger range than Shirley Reeves.
All I say about "He's Seventeen" - as well as most of the Supremes' early years - is that this group were diamonds in the rough for real. Neither member was vocally polished as they would be by the time "Lovelight" finally put them on the map and then exploded with "Where". You hear many of those early songs, you realize how hard it was for them to get a hit because their sound was not tight, it was all over the place. The reason the Marvelettes were able to succeed the way they did was because they somehow captured the voice of those times in ways the Supremes couldn't do at that point, which is why when I hear these early singles, I'm not much of a fan of them. Very talented but definitely not "ready for the big time" yet. And also, being underage as they were doesn't always mean you're gonna be like little Stevie or little MJ so...
And that's probably not what Berry want. I feel he was pretty strategic about "his girls". He didn't want them to sound like any other girl group. Which is why they were mad that they couldn't get a record like "Please Mr. Postman" or "Heatwave". This is why you have to give credit to the Supremes and to Berry Gordy because they somehow were able to pull off what many in Motown thought was "impossible" for them. Their early recordings just sounded like everything else at the time lolQuote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
agreed - Berry has stated that his goal was to find the ideal female star. one that could take him to the stratosphere. beautiful, poised, gifted singer across many genres. I don't know that he immediately saw Diana and said 'she's the one!!!" but he clearly recognized that she was very unique. physically, emotionally, vocally. not the best singer, not the prettiest woman. but unique.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightman