Attachment 18773
Mexican LP
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Attachment 18773
Mexican LP
while i've not heard of Reflections being the final single, i'm sure you're right about the trepidation everyone felt at the time.
What if after Reflections was released it DIDN'T chart well or what if concert attendance dropped off drastically or something else? If the public rejected the change in lineup, then it would have accelerated Diana's departure.
add into this the HDH fiasco and you probably had lots of motown brass sweating bullets. and this probably lasted well into mid 68. you did have the single Reflections do very well. but each subsequent one did worse. the reflections lp only went to 18 or so, then TOTT did something like 50 and Funny Girl bombed. the group had really declined over the course of 1 year
then they did rebound with LC and the duets. but things were def shaky for quite a while
John Phillips fired Michelle Phillips after discovering her affair [[one of which had been with group-mate Denny Doherty) with Gene Clark of The Byrds in the beginning of June 1966. The "legend" goes that Jill Gibson, a model and former girlfriend of Jan Berry of Jan and Dean fame, was visiting friend/producer Lou Adler in the studio the night of Michelle's firing and, shortly afterward, John chose to replace Michelle with Jill. The group left [[with newly-hired Jill) within a week for a multi-week tour in England. Upon their return to Los Angeles in July 1966, Gibson went in the studio with the rest of the group recording more tracks for the M&Ps second album in between going out on the road for various concert appearances around the country. While the promotion machine began touting Jill as "the newest Mama" and supposedly a majority of then fans were accepting of Jill taking Michelle's place in the group during the appearances made in July and August 1966, John Phillips [["and others") claimed that the chemistry possessed by him, Denny, Cass, and Michelle...just wasn't there with Jill in the group. Phillips apparently decided it would be best to have his wife, Michelle, return to her position in the group and to let Jill Gibson go. MY opinion about all this is that John Phillips was punishing Michelle in a very, very public way and had things overall with Jill Gibson gone smashingly, Michelle would have stayed fired. I suspect that when John noticed that things on stage just didn't feel quite the same without Michelle, he probably began to reconsider his decision. Plus, he'd probably made his point with Michelle after publicly humiliating her in a way that he felt she'd privately humiliated him. This was less of a "disaster" than Phillips likely feeling he'd made his point with his wife/group-mate after realizing the electricity of the group was better with her there than not there. Unlike Florence and Berry, John was married to Michelle and they still lived together. There were different things involved in the decision to fire Michelle and eventually bring her back than there were in Florence being fired from The Supremes. I'd think that Michelle's return was not quite as highly promoted as Jill's entry because then they'd have to explain why she was gone in the first place and then brought back. The feeling/approach was likely to carry on and continue riding the success and just pretend June-August 1966 never happened for the Mamas and Papas. I have to doubt Berry knew of any inner details of why Michelle was fired, why Jill Gibson was hired and fired, and why Michelle returned. I would think that Berry acted with Florence in that moment and related to Florence and how she was affecting the booming business that was The Supremes and not "how did the fans/public react to Jill Gibson replacing Michelle Phillips?" Do I think there was trepidation from Berry and his executives about whether or not it was the right decision to keep Florence or let her go? SURE. I would think Berry felt that keeping Florence out of the Hollywood Bowl show [[a high profile event for both the group AND Motown's education scholarship fund announcement) was a punishment--and a public one at that. Clearly Berry wasn't fixed on a decision about Flo being out because he let her return a few weeks after the Bowl to appear at the Copa--an always important venue for the group--and to continue on with the group [[appearing and recording) past that big gig and on to Las Vegas...another important gig. Although I think the final decision about Flo was made in Las Vegas, I suspect that had Florence kept herself in check for several more months, Berry would have likely thanked Cindy for her time, rewarded her with a generous one-time payment [[charged to The Supremes' account, I'm sure LOL), and let her return to the wilds of New Jersey and The Bluebelles [[if they'd taken her back). I don't think the situation experienced by the Mamas and The Papas with Michelle ever really factored into Berry's thought process or decisions involving Florence. By that point, the goal was likely to make sure that Diana's career was protected and kept healthy and Berry and Company were likely less concerned with how Florence [[or even Mary) was affected by that. Whether they brought in Cindy or anyone else [[which, Motown clearly had no problem with group member replacements--see The Vandellas, The Temptations, and The Velvelettes--so again--it was all about protecting Diana's career), the decision to put Diana out as a solo by the Fall of 1967 was likely not at the top of the list of choices, but rather making sure the vehicle that was propelling her career [[The Supremes) was remaining viable for as long as they needed it to be.
Its also been said that Berry was hesitant about firing Flo because Jules Podell got wind of Flo being replaced and told Berry he wanted the original group.
I've always wondered how did Berry and the girls talk Flo into coming back? Clearly she wasn't happy when she did return. Mary says that Flo didn't speak with her or Diana when she came back.
Can someone remind me again when the big meeting was with Gordy and the Supremes at his house discussing Florence's participation in the group? Was it before or after the Hollywood Bowl?
i believe the meeting was late april
On April 23 they were scheduled to play the Loyola Field House in New Orleans. this is the show that D and M did as a duet act
the hollywood bowl show was on April 29
So that's a crazy short period for Cindy to learn the act
here's another thought for this topic
Reflections was originally planned for the Greatest Hits album. had that happened we might not have even received a Reflections lp. so would In and Out and Forever still have been follow up singles?
Reflections peaked in early Sept 67 just a couple months after Cindy joined. at that point you have no new album out and no new singles out.
so what might have been released?
Good question.
But in n out was pulled and the Andantees added...
forever came today probably would have been released unless Ross went solo.
Then love child would be her first single
ive always wanted to know what was shown on the Aug 12th edition of "American Bandstand" some sources say it was "Reflections".. was it a promo clip performance ? something by The Supremes appeared on this air date on the show
good point
In and Out was released PRIOR to Reflections album being released. so i guess we could assume that would still happen
exactly right!!!
while the vast majority of the discussion of this overall time period falls on obvious Flo topics, we shouldn't overlook Cindy. She was brought in to fulfil a job and did so amazingly. learning their show in just a few days, doing so w grace and kindness.
Nothing went wrong with this album it’s a master piece in every way possible also it does not matter what it did on the charts the voice was there and she made a heck of a album
I was always able to listen to every Supremes album all the way through until the Reflections album. Theres still a couple of songs on there that I really don't think I've listened to. Whenever I've played this album I always end up tuning out and doing something else. I think the only late 60s album I listened to all the way through was Love Child and maybe Let the Sunshine In.
I love the Reflections LP cover, controversial lol, and the singles released from this album. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, but that's just my opinion. It's the B-side that makes this album feel sloppy and rushed. Just not keen on the first 3 songs, What the world, love makes me do foolish things and up up and away. The A side is great and I can listen to it without skipping a song. I don't think anything went wrong because 18 on the album charts is still very good. Martha and the Vandellas didn't even get a single album in the top 20. Marvelettes were even worse on the album charts.
interesting POV After. what about this album really jumps out to you? I love the sort of despondent tone Diana uses on Reflection. her delivery is like that of a person in shock of heartbreak. But on some of the other tunes like I'm Gonna Make It, it's a different kind of detached. like she's just going through the motions of recording. IMO
would love to hear what really makes this album a gem for you
i think Love Makes Me Do is a lovely track. very well done even if Martha's is still the definitive version.
and Up Up has grown on me. while it's never been a fav of mine [[neither had In and Out), when i learned that both songs fall into the "sunshine pop" sound of the era, it makes sense. that sound had it's base in LA and with groups like the 5th Dimension. Whereas Reflections and some of the other Side A tracks were clearly influenced by psychedelia from San Fran.
so the idea could be [[albeit incomplete) that this is a "motown does California" album.
I agree. Typically I skip tracks on almost every album, but if I'm in the mood for the entire thing, I'll sit through tracks that I'm not necessarily crazy about. I will not do that for Reflections. "What the World Needs Now" is dreadful. I used to hate "Up, Up and Away" also, but it has grown on me a little. I'll play Love Child and Sunshine all the way through, but not Crop. IMO Reflections and Crop are at the bottom of the list if I ranked Supremes albums during the 60s.
What I like about this album is The Voice there is nobody in the history of music as a voice like Diana Ross it flows from song to song it’ll take you to that place there is no denying But this album is great case in point Justin Bieber’s new album though I love them songs are great I can understand hardly understand what he’s singing the songs are boring and then you have an album like this reflections the voice is very clear you can hear Word for Word what she’s singing and then that case it’s a masterpiece
Yeah, I love this version of the song. I seem to recall a thread once where we discussed the cuts that the Supremes did that Martha and the Vs did first and the consensus was that the Supremes could never manage to do those songs justice. I definitely think this is the one exception. Martha is tops on this, but Diana isn't too far behind. Of course I think the song itself is just perfect and might just be one of those that's hard to mess up. I have not heard a version that I didn't like, with my top 3 being Martha, Thee Midnighters, and then Diana.
i love her voice too. i just don't know that i find this album set to be the best display of her vocal capabilities. even if you just look to either side of this album, the albums just pre and post Reflections.
Sing R&H is one of the most perfect albums the group ever released. it stands up there frankly with any Diana Ross album of her career, including Touch me in the morning, the Boss, surrender. I get it if you don't personally care for this genre of music - that's perfectly fine. but you can't deny the vocal skill and magic the girls bring here
FG is another one where you might not like the show or the genre. but DR is superb here. just excellent throughout.
Love Child is an example of the excellent pop music DR and the group could put out. while the album doesn't have a collective approach or theme [[other than maybe just good songs lol), i find the tracks on it are better performed that many of the Reflections tracks
but again, i love comparing and sharing with everyone here :) your opinion of the Reflections album is wonderful and love hearing your POV
so i don't know if i find What The World as terrible as everyone else. it's certainly not a favorite nor one i add to playlists. but i also don't find it as offensive as everyone else. I agree that the vocals are a bit boring. they could have had more passion when recording it.
Side two including up up and away and what the world needs sounds like run thru's to me.
Sound unfinished
I'm a fan of the original, which I heard before I heard the Supremes version. The original is so well done that any cover version that doesn't at least attempt to take it up a notch, fails in comparison. The drivel HDH produced with this song, there was no attempt to take it up a notch. Not even an attempt to respectfully cover it. Diana's vocal is lackluster at best. And Flo and Mary turn out what is possibly their most boring backing vocal ever. No imagination in the track. Had this song never been released on Reflections and only came out in one of the subsequent vault comps, I probably wouldn't be as hard on it as I would assume it was a demo of sorts. But not only was this bullshit put on an album, it was considered for single release. I wouldn't even want what they were smoking when that decision came across the table.
"What the World" is only a smidge better than their version of "My Guy", which is bad for all or similar reasons.
i'm just totally speculating here
What the World was recorded on 4/18 along with In My Lonely Room, Heat Wave. on the 20th they did It's not Unusual, Get Ready, Sloopy, Money, Satisfaction, This old heart, shake me wake me, mickey monkey
To be honest, some of the vocals from these days just aren't up to Supremes' standards IMO. Diana typically delivered a pretty solid lead but M and F really seem disengaged on many of theirs. were they tires? mad? bored? sick? fed up? who would know.
But What The World is most definitely not the only subpar song that came out of this time
and I agree with you Ran, given other material that we've since received from the vaults, there were stronger options available to include on the album. A Little Breeze would have been a lovely option.
I don't like what the world needs now either, said it earlier. To me it just doesn't fit the album nor does it sound finished. I agree that Mary and Florence sound semi boring. I tried to listen to the alt version on A Go Go expanded but still not keen on it. I think the song would have fitted on the There's a place for us album.
For me the songs on side A are so strong that the songs on side B disappoint. I like Then on side B but only because Cindy is on the background.
It appears it’s always the same ones that are always trashing anything that Diana Ross does it’s too I’m finished it doesn’t sound rightThe sounds don’t match this and that this and this and this is just absolutely ridiculous just enjoy the music don’t destroy it there’s absolutely nothing wrong with any of these songs compared to any singers out there today she does a damn good job and that is a fact
I don't think that very fair to say such thing. The Supremes forum has been good for quite some time and nobody has disrespected any of the ladies, including Diana. This is a forum to discuss and those who don't like a song are allowed to give their opinion. Cindy is my favourite Supremes and I accept that some find her bland or boring because they are entitled to give their opinion.
I love Diana and her voice is fantastic but that does not mean I like every song she sang. People are allowed to say they don't like a song or why. It's part of being member of a forum and sometimes you might read things you do not agree with but nobody has been trashing Diana. There's only 1 CD in my car and guess which one??
Different opinions make this forum more interesting. We all love the Supremes that's why we discuss them. But that doesn't mean we like all their songs or the choices they made or whoever made them for them. I might be speaking for myself here but that's my say in this. Finish, Einde, Fin und Ende.
Sub par, but not downright disrespectful. Lol Let me be clear about the way I view Flo and Mary as backing vocalists: they were as good as anyone in the business. When they were on point, they were really on it. So for them to approach "What the World Needs", which had this original backing vocal that was superb, with the energy Pat Boone might have given it, is almost unforgivable.
The songs you point out aren't necessarily the best representation of what Flo and Mary had to offer [["Satisfaction" being an obvious exception IMO), but none of them, not even "Sloopy", are quite as un-Supreme like as "What the World Needs".
The only thing that gives "World" the edge over "My Guy" is that Diana's lead on "World" is slightly more acceptable than the crap she did on "My Guy". That entire recording is a sin and a shame.
Seven posts in and this person is already insulting forum members because they have a different opinion. I smell someone who's been here for far more than 7 posts and long before this month. I smell someone pissed that the forum has largely been absent the bullshit that got the DRATS section banished to the basement and so decided it was time to shake things up. Don't feed the actual trolls people. Blocked.
Same here. Flo is top rated in my book. But then I go on Diana Ross vids on Youtube and see some of the comments people leave and wonder why, even after a legendary career, they still don't get why Diana's popular. But no reason to go on the attack. People like what they like.
I always think some are even more obsessed with certain people than we are and Youtube is far more vicious than this forum has ever been lol. Love the fact that we all have different views.
I didn't like it when they relegated Cindy even further into the background when they did the joined Temptations version of "Then". I think heaven must have sent you would have been a great inclusion on side 2 of Reflections. Wonder if "the Happening" would have worked on Reflections.