Did Martha really refuse to finish I can’t Dance...and Syreeta brought in to finish? Why on earth would Motown do that to one of its most successful singers? Why not just can the song? Or is there more to the story? [[Or less lol)Motown Myth?
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Did Martha really refuse to finish I can’t Dance...and Syreeta brought in to finish? Why on earth would Motown do that to one of its most successful singers? Why not just can the song? Or is there more to the story? [[Or less lol)Motown Myth?
Luke,
Deke did post a detailed account on the old forum a long time back [[I think I have a Word copy somewhere), but in a nutshell, Deke Richards was asked by quality control head Billie Jean Brown [[much against his wishes) to put the chorus at the start of the tune [[and also change the melody IIRC), which for the former, meant he had to go and 'chop' the tape up for this to happen.
So he does this, presents a new mix of the tune to present to QC, only for BJ to say actually it was better as it was originally intended! So Deke now goes back and puts everything back in the right order, but on playback, finds that Martha's voice has been clipped due to the tape edit during the chorus, and will need to recut those parts with her.
Unfortunately for him, Martha was out on a tour/promotion somewhere a long way from Detroit, so Deke asked if he could take the tape to wherever she was and recut her to replace her clipped parts on the chorus. However the trip was never going to happen and after a long wrangle with the Legal Affairs Department, Deke was stuck in Detroit with a song that needed finishing, but with the lead vocalist not present! Add to this pressure the Sales/Promotion department were putting on him for a record [[a follow up to Honey Chile was needed), he was in a bit of a dilemma!
After some conversation with BJ, who suggests that one of the Andantes sing in place of Martha on the chorus emulating her, although he tried this, Deke wasn't so sure, and this is where Rita Wright came in after a suggestion from someone else.
He taught her the song, and using various EQ settings etc. tried to get her to sound as much like Martha as he could, all the time aware that he really needed Martha, but with time and pressure against him, had do the best he could so the record could be put out as soon as possible.
[[One thing he did mention was that he didn't have time to make a copy of the 8 track tape after the edits took place. That said, seeing as the 'Martha & The Vandellas 50th Anniversary' set had a stereo mix done by Deke of the song with Martha's complete vocal on it, suggests a copy of the 8 track had been done prior to Deke's edits, or he was using a copy of the 8 track when he edited it).
Cheers
Paul
Thank you Paul. I had no idea!
This account by Deke has puzzled me ever since the 50th anniversary set was released. Why tell such a tale when there was a complete vocal by Martha all along? Could he have genuinely forgotten or did using Rita just make for a good story?
There's a stereo version of "I Can't Dance" on the 50th set? which track # is it as I could not tell but didn't listen that closely assuming the 2 versions I have came from The Motown Singles box set. I have been wanting a stereo version of this forever and may have it and didn't know it. Thanks a million! I just looked, I have the original and then the alternative versions only which I love. What a great record this is. So maybe the 3rd version on 50th is stereo?
Good question LD, and one I asked myself after getting the 50th Anniversary set!Quote:
Originally Posted by lakedistrictlad1
I don't think the use of Syreeta was to make a good story, but as I said in in my earlier post, it's possible a copy of the original multitrack was made, and as you say, Deke had forgotten, or was possibly not aware, with things happening so fast and all the drama of having to do as QC instructed him.
Nathan,
There are two stereo mixes of ICDTTMYP on the 50th set.
There is an earlier version cut in a different key, and the second [[released version) with Martha's complete vocal take, both mixed for the set by Deke.
What is interesting is why the single mix has the 'blended' sax note on the bridge with Martha's vocal, whilst the stereo mix [[from the UK "A Collection of Big Hits Vol 7"?) doesn't!
I'm sure George Solomon was involved with the Martha 50th set, so maybe he can chime in on the situation with the ICDTTMYP multitracks, and possibly how the one with the complete vocal was missed by Deke at the time?
Cheers
Paul
The version featuring Martha all the way through really sounds more like a demo than a finished product. Her lead on the verses in the released version is much superior, and the overall arrangement is altogether better, so I can see why Richards felt he needed to use that one even if he couldn’t schedule Martha in order to meet the deadline.
As for Syreeta stepping in, well, even when the song first came out, I assumed it was just Vandellas on the choruses and no Martha, and I didn’t give it a second thought. Consequently, years later, when I learned that Richards had slugged in Rita [[Syreeta), it just didn’t seem like all that big a deal to me. I can see how it might have incensed Martha, but I do think she overreacted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqGNr4gqRCQ
Cheers
Paul
https://youtu.be/9dlSxCozO-c
Cheers
Paul
Al,Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl
As far as I'm aware [[and to my ears - the second YouTube video I posted) this is the same vocal take by Martha as per the 45 and aforementioned stereo mix that appears to have been issued on the UK 'A Collection of Big Hits Vol 7', but is complete, hence the query by LD and myself as to how this multitrack was missed at the time, and Deke's story of how Rita Wright came to be used on the chorus of the released version, which started with the query by Luke!
Cheers
Paul
https://youtu.be/cB5WS24ciOs
This is the stereo mix that has been used on various compilations over the years, and as mentioned, is most likely the one issued on the UK issue of 'A Collection of Big Hits Vol 7', and possibly a shelved US release - A Collection of 16 Big Hits Volume 12. [[see this thread for more info.)
As you can hear, not such a tight or polished mix compared to the 45, and missing the 'blended' sax break which is strangely on the 45 mix, and of course the stereo mix with Martha's complete vocal on the 50th Anniversary set!
[[It would seem there is a bit more to the story than Deke could recall at the time of his "The I Can't Dance Caper" essay).
Cheers
Paul
I have a bootleg copy of "Ridin` High Expanded" and there are 4 versions.Original single mix mono 2.39 , stereo mix 2.44, original version mono 2.52 and alternate mono 2.37.
Confused ? I am.
Roger,
The confusion could come from the naming of the mixes on that bootleg set!
[[I find this to be the case on streaming/downloading services, and YouTube, where even the official uploads by the record companies gets it wrong or muddled).
Anyway, here is the US 45 mix to top things off, for a comparison.
https://youtu.be/vlsjUTaBkXU
[[So far I've posted all the mixes I know of that are currently officially available, except for a mono mix of the first version [[in the lower key) which was done for the 'Motown Unreleased 1968' set, which is most likely your 'alternate mono').
Cheers
Paul
I`m now more confused!
Lol. I’m pretty confused too! Can you imagine if Syreeta was slipped in on a Supremes record for a solo! OMG
Yeah, this is quite a story. I'm not a musician or anything but what could possibly be the rush to get this song out and just wait for Martha to return to complete a particular take? I'm just sorry this record didn't chart better even into the top 10. It still remains one of her best in my book. In the meantime I searched my computer and found multiples of the mono single, the alternate and the original. On amazon, the "GOLD" version says single/mono and it is clearly stereo as posted above so now I have it, although sad it doesn't have that fantastic voice/sax blend as discussed. I do like the alternate with that "clicking" sound whatever that is. Then another version is more uptempo. Either way, makes for a great story and a great recording by Martha and whoever. Oh, and thanks for the info bradburger.
I think we need the wisdom of Solomon on this subject to explain it in more easy to understand terms - c'mon George where are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanj06
Well that 45 US mix is just great and it seems to me that Syreeta was superfluous as those vocals were just fine and would have done just as well without her [[and I love Syreeta by the way). What was so bad that they had to bring her in?
"Like the tale by the time it's been told by more than one... It's growing." Like many Motown stories even told by those directly involved sometimes the truth isn't quite as interesting as a colorful story. [[Do I need to mention the gross exaggerations about The Supremes version of "People?") Not only did Martha finish "I Can't Dance..." but she finished it MANY times. Yes there are even other unreleased versions including some in the higher key where Martha sings alternate melodies and even the same melody on the chorus that Syreeta sang. From studio chatter it appears that Martha was perhaps getting tired of singing it over and over. But pro that she is, she finished each take and like all Martha's recorded performances they are all good. I certainly think there is truth in what Deke said about Mr. Gordy or quality control wanting the chorus up front and him having to re-edit and I believe he was genuinely surprised to find other Martha vocals in tact. Obviously I wasn't there and this is JUST MY OPINION. I think what no one wants to say is that Syreeta was added to make the song more pop friendly and her voice would add another dimension or dare I say Supremes like sound. [[As a kid I just assumed it was one of the Vandellas featured on the chorus). Martha was rightfully upset when she heard the finished mix and even though the song was off to a great start on the charts the promotion was pulled. It puzzles me that Syreeta was used again at the end of "Taking My Love [[And Leaving Me)." Can I please repeat, this is just my personal theory?
[[Do I need to mention the gross exaggerations about The Supremes version of "People?") Thank you for your efforts then & now, George!
I had the Anthology purple cover 2 Lp since it was new...this cut isn't on that. First time I heard it was in the mid 80's when I got the Command Performances CD....I immediately liked the song....what I cant figure out is how anyone can assume it is or sounded like Diana as I had read before I ever heard it....Since it's been said that Syreeta was added to DRATS "Beginning of The End", I would love to believe that is Cindy pumped way up repeating "Mind Mind Mind" but that voice is too similar to the voice in ICDTTMTYP for me not to believe it too, is Syreeta...those Anthology LPS were my "crash" Motown education enrichment....other than DRATS, I only knew the really big top 10 hits before I started collecting those....all those very early and mid pop chart level wonderful Marvin, Marvelettes, and Vandella songs I grew to love so much. I was 14 when they started releasing them, so I had a lot of catching up to do...I did get the 5 LP Motown Story about 3 yrs earlier, the summer it was released....[['71?)...mainly because the Diana and Mary interviews.
So, according to George, Martha did finish all versions and so forth. There's more??? OMG! My only wish would be a stereo version with that phenomenal sax blend with her voice. Perfection! Now I have to figure out the second stereo take that was mentioned. I listen but can barely tell except for the one from "Gold". This is quite a fascinating subject.
Paul, George, and everyone else - thanks for your contributions.
Just for clarity, I think it's always been obvious that Martha did indeed "finish off" the released version of ICDTTMYP, as confirmed by listening, and Deke's essay, but clearly Rita Wright was used on the choruses as confirmed by Deke.
Nathan, there is a stereo mix with the 'sax blend' on the chorus - check the second video I posted. [[As mentioned, the multitrack it was mixed from has the complete vocal by Martha).
Btw, I forgot I had discovered this awhile back, uploaded by UK soul vinyl specialist collector John Manship. It's an UK EMI acetate of the original stereo mix of ICDTTMYP [[the same mix as in video No.3 - in this case from 'Martha Reeves and The Vandellas - Gold").
https://youtu.be/EvP1CybLlbs
So I assume this version was used on the 'A Collection of Big Hits Vol 7', but I wonder if it was also used on the UK single version, folded to mono?
Cheers
Paul
In the UK, Tina Charles had a single out on the MAM record label "I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playin' " and as Wild Honey also released a single of "There's No Stopping Us Now" [[I used to have both 45s).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuGGMP-6r2s
Nathan, there is a stereo mix with the 'sax blend' on the chorus - check the second video I posted. [[As mentioned, the multitrack it was mixed from has the complete vocal by Martha).
bradburger, The second video you posted is no longer available. Do you know where or which source it came from? I would love to have that!!! Thanks.
Couldn't they have just called Martha and explained what they had to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by George Solomon
found the post, here it is:
I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playing:
I know it's late, but its been one of those days and this is the first chance I've had to write. I'm sure most of you are already under the covers and even down for the count, but here's the bedtime story I promised you: "The I Can't Dance Caper".
Well, you must remember in those days we cut on 8-Track. There wasn't a lot of room for error, much less giving anyone extra tracks, including the lead vocalist. The 3 guitars were mixed to one track while you were recording live, Jamerson had his own bass track, the drums were cut on one, [[sometimes) on 2 tracks The piano on one, percussion on another. So, you see there is 6 gone right there. You had enough for the group and the lead. If you planned to sweeten the tracks, you had to either do a different mix when you recorded the original tracks or make an 8 Track to 8 Track transfer and put the perc and drums together etc., etc., to open up another track. Well, let's cut to the chase . . .
The song, "I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playin'" was complete with Martha singing all the way through, as well as the 'saxy vocal break'. Enter . . . Quality Control. [[Now, if you don't know about BJ and QC, we'll have to go into that one another time.) I can tell you that BJ liked it from the first time she heard it. There was competition from Richard Morris, who was out to follow up "Honey Chile" with "Sweet Darlin'". I hadn't really earned my 'stripes' yet to be in a QC meeting. I remember, BJ said just before going in, "Take it easy Deke, you've got a good record and a good shot at it. We'll see." However, you could hear BJ and BG playing the acetates [[behind closed doors) in the hall, stopping and starting, comparing the 2 back and forth . Then, there was silence while they were voted on. When the door finally opened, BJ said, "OK Deke, you got it!"
Well, I just about had kittens. However, BJ wanted me to make a few changes. First she wanted the song to start right out with the chorus and then wanted me to change the melody on the chorus. 'Deke, make these changes, and you'll have a hit!" Chorus at the top? Maybe, but change the melody? I didn't really agree, but I wanted the release. Hey, BJ was the pro, a senior at Motown while I, was still a freshman. I had to go with her. After all, after BG, she was the boss when it came to making those kind of decisions. Don't get me wrong, BJ did have a certain amount of magic, and she was right on a lot of her calls. So, I had to go in the studio with my trusty 'safety razor' and edit the tape. After I did it, a few of Martha's lines got clipped where I edited the tape. Not only that. The phrasing just didn't sound natural. So I asked for studio time, to make the opening kick with a fresh OD of Martha doing the opening chorus. It was tight because Martha was leaving for a gig. I think it was in Philly. [[I'm almost sure it started with a "P" anyway.) At any rate, I also changed the melody like BJ suggested. Done!
It goes back up to BJ & QC and Oh-Oh! Uh, the response to the change was a tad cool. Meeting time, closed doors, etc. I'm waiting in the hall, pacing back and forth, like a man who's wife is getting ready to have a baby. Doors open, "Come in, Deke". Well, it seems like I had it right the first time. "Deke", pregnant pause, "change it back the way you had it." [[BJ had to admit she was wrong, which I know was not easy for her to do, especially to me, a kid who was still a bit green.) Great! No, it wasn't. What a drag, I thought. BJ wanted those first changes done so fast, there was no time to make an 8 track to 8 track transfer. I had to erase Martha's original lead vocal to redub her with the new melody BJ wanted. I didn't have an open track left. Anyway, back into the studio I go and re-edit the tape and put the pieces back where they were before I so rudely violated it. Now, I go to A&R to schedule another dub in with Martha. Wait a minute! Martha's gone to "P", wherever that was. Now, I have to go back up to A&R and tell them the problem. From there, I end up tangling with the Legal Affairs Dept. to get permission to go to "P" so I can redo her vocal back the way it was to begin with.
Now here' is the sad part of the story that no one, including Martha, knows. Legal Affairs, nixes the trip. What? Why Legal Affairs? Cost too Much? There wasn't a studio near where Martha was performing? She was going on to another gig and I wouldn't be able to catch up with her? Why couldn't I go and have Martha redub the missing pieces? This, I will never understand. On top of that, I keep being told, "there is no time". DJs and/or sales are putting on the pressure. They have to have the follow up for "Honey Chile". The record HAS to come out yesterday! NOW, what am I supposed to do?
BJ suggests I have the Adantes sing the chorus on the opening. "Maybe you can get one of the girls to sound like Martha [[or like the old Vandellas) in the background." Anyway, I try, but no way. I need Martha, that's it, period. It just won't work without Martha. Well, I don't know what to do. Sure, I want the release, but it's not right. To make matters worse, they won't let me go to Martha; and even if I got the OK, sales was putting on the pressure to get the record yesterday. If I wasn't a young buck, I probably would have had a heart attack.
Enter . . . Rita Wright. Rita was working in the arrangers room running sheet music to the sessions and assisting the arrangers etc., waiting for her own break. [[Remember, many stars in the Motown family, worked as secretaries and such waiting for their chance.) She had already done a few demos for Diana. One of the arrangers asks me, "Have you heard Rita sing?". Well, to be honest, I hadn't. "She's really good"! I listened to one of her demos, and she had this little edge that gets thinner and fatter when she gets up there. Could this possibly work? Maybe if I bury her just enough with the other girls . . . Maybe if I double the girls and add just one Rita? No, then it will sound too big, to overproduced, to 'Mamas & Papas-ish". So, I go over and talk to Rita and tell her the situation. "So, do you want to give it a crack?", I asked. "Keep in mind there is no glory in this Rita, you are just playing a part." It was like . . Rita was going to be the one fake brush stroke on the original painting of the Mona Lisa."
- 07-29-2015, 09:45 AM
motown01
https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/st...er-offline.pngSenior Member
Join DateAug 2010Posts437
I go into the studio and we begin. I even have her sing along with one chorus I still had with Martha's voice that was clipped when I did the edit. You know, Rita really tried. I even made her change the timber of her voice in the middle of words and almost crack. But I have to tell you, only Martha can really do that. I changed EQ..while recording live. I had 3 different setups I would switch to. Believe me, no one or two could have tried harder. When I originally mixed the rough 7 1/2 ips, it did sound decent. But, I had to pull her back into the group just right. However, I think anyone would have still said, "Why did you lower Martha's voice in the chorus?" Now, here's the next cute move. I didn't mix the final record! They didn't even call me in to be at the mixing session. QC and especially BJ, knew this was a problem side. [[Note: There were only a few producers that got to mix their own product at that time: Norman Whitfield, HDH, Smokey and that's about it. Your final mixes were done without you being there.) So, you can see what a disaster this one was going to be. Whoever mixed it, needed to know what was going on. I remember when I heard it mixed the first time. "You better pull Rita back into the mix." I said. Who do you think you are going to fool? The fool, that's who . . . and that's all, I thought
Through all of this, my gut is doing somersaults. Here we are, emulating the great Martha, when the real Martha is still with us. Now, I don't want to make this a political forum, however . . .After all is said and done, and all the stories have been told, you have to ask yourself the following:
DO YOU REALLY THINK . . . I would want my first solo record by a major artist on Motown to be a fabrication? DO YOU REALLY THINK I wanted my first solo record to stop dead in it's tracks at the lower half of Billboards Hot 100, and have a bullet on the way down? Anyone who could have really prevented this from happening, took themselves off the hook. Someone had to take the fall. I remember seeing Martha one last time in Detroit. I went up to see BG, and she had just returned from being on the road. She was sitting there also waiting to see Berry, with tears in her eyes. She didn't even want to talk to me. I don't think she was ever told what was going down. She just heard it on the radio. Swell. What in the world did they tell her? I don't think any of us will ever know.
Since then I've heard stories, including a few mentioned in this forum. Well, Martha never mentioned anything to me about changing the lyrics because a relationship gone bad with a musician. If that was really the case, then she kept it inside, until she blurted it out later down the line to someone. Either that ,or some writer stared that junk. Oh yes, and the one about Rita having to hit the notes for Martha? Nonsense. Martha hit the notes I gave her just fine.
I met with Martha one more time after Motown in 1981. She was taking care of her mom and she came over and we spent the day together. We were both at low points in our lives. However, Martha had been "To Hell and Back". She had signed a couple of artist deals, neither of which were totally satisfying. I could tell she had definitely seen the demons. However, as much as I wanted to do something, I was really not in shape to help her, much less myself. Dearest Martha, I was crazy about you, I idolized you. Do you think I did this to you for my personal gain? Do you really think I had the authority to do this to you? Better yet, where did I, the new kid on the block, ever get the authority to do this to you? Ain't no way, baby. Never in a million years.
And then there's Rita. She was just a pawn in this deal. However, I'm sure she's had her share of embarrassing questions to answer over the years.
Now that it's history, I think we all are to blame. I could have stood up and told QC, "I'm not going to do what you want, without Martha!" Rita could have told me, "I don't want to be the one to play "Martha Reeves" on a Martha Reeves record"; and Motown could have said, "Get a hold of Martha and have her come back here so we can finish this record".
...and so we all came to the finish line together, dead last.
Wow! Thanks for that bg69.
Quite a story! Takes a while to get through it, but well worth it. So this all must've been just before Deke broke out as a member of The Corporation, I guess?
Now I must beg! How can I get that version in stereo WITH the blended voice/sax?Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanj06
What an amazing and troubled story. One of zillions anyone from Motown could tell us. This one sure is a classic and as far as I'm concerned, I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playin' IS a #1 on my list for Martha Reeves. Just like she's the only one who can sing Dancing In The Street. That song is hers.Thanks for posting the story blackguy69.
Why has this version not been released? It would have been fitting to have it on the 50th Anniversary Singles Collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by George Solomon
There were additional tapes found after the 50th Anniversary was complete.Quote:
Originally Posted by smallworld
I swear, George, Motown has tapes all over the place! Check under the sofa cushions, there might be a lost Four Tops album hidden in there!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by George Solomon
Nathan,Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanj06
It's track 26/CD3 of the '50th Anniversary Set' [[the second video I posted which is still working when I click on it, but it might not be available '"in your territory" as they say, so it might pay to search YT to find the version that is).
Cheers
Paul
It doesn't work here but I can get that. I did see for a split second the time was 2:52. A million thanks bradburger.
Here I had the "original" the whole time but it is a different vocal and the sax blend is there. I don't hear the stereo effect as much as I do on another stereo version. I also like the alternate and the mono. That should round this one up until they find more and do a special EP or deluxe I Can't Dance CD. I now have 4 versions. Fun stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Solomon
Quote:
Originally Posted by smallworld
That explains it. Thanks. I wonder if Universal would release that version to the Ace label for one of their "Motown Girls" compilations? A period sounding mono mix and a modern style stereo mix would be appreciated.Quote:
Originally Posted by George Solomon