The "Replacements" - Do They Deserve More Recognition?

Dennis Edwards' passing made me wonder about this topic. I have a couple questions for you SDF types.

[[1) Do you think "replacement" singers ever get as much recognition as they deserve?

[[2) What is your opinion, or philosophy, regarding a "rule regarding replacements?" Here's mine. I think the ones who are most successful are those who have some things in common with the singer they're replacing, but don't sound as if they're mimicking them, meaning they don't sound exactly like the singer they're replacing.

Here's what I mean. To me, Dennis Edwards was very successful in the Temptations because he could sound like Ruffin at times, but had a much grittier, churchy sound to his vocals. I always thought Paul Williams sounded more like Ruffin, but without Ruffin's edginess.

I felt the same way about Jean Terrell and Scherrie Payne. They both had some qualities similar to Diane, but they both offered their own "tangents" beyond that. Terrell was certainly a more soulful singer than Ross. Payne could sing soul, but to me her standout ability was that she had that amazing Broadway-Jazz-Song Stylist inflection to her voice and delivery.

Obviously, I'm not comparing their ability to have hit records with the one they replaced. Payne had only one Top 40 as a Supreme, I believe, but I still think as a vocalist, and in terms of replacing Terrell [[and Diane before her), she was successful.

I think less so of the ones who sound so much like the ones they replaced. For example, I could hardly tell a difference between Damon Harris and Eddie Kendricks, so how could Harris ever really achieve recognition for his own talents? Billy Griffin didn't sound exactly like Smokey, but again, to me, he sounded too much like him to really create his own sound for the Miracles.

Anyway, would love your opinions on the above.

My opinion? GENERALLY, all replacements are bogus. I would not accept a 'replacement' for [[say) Aretha, so why should I accept a replacement of a beloved lead singer?

For me it depends on the replacement and the talent of the person being replaced. I think that Dennis Edwards was different enough from David and talented enough that he couldn't help but be successful. He didn't try to copy David; he was his own lead singer and the material suited him very, very well. On the flip side, I couldn't fathom anyone replacing Levi Stubbs.

even The Village People suffered from replacements.

I hate to say it but if the replacement was successful, they got a lot of recognition

If the success was modest, the recognition was modest

I suspect if you stack the Dennis statistics from Billboard against the David statistics of the Temptations, Dennis would come out on top

even die hard fans loose interest after too many changes....but Dennis and Jean made significant impacts....its the replacements of the replacements where you start losing camp.

Dennis Edwards was just as much THE Temptations as Otis Williams, Melvin Franklin, David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, and Paul Williams.

David had "My Girl", "Ain't Too Proud To Beg", "Beauty Is Only Skin Deep", "[[I Know) I'm Losing You", and "I Wish It Would Rain"; Dennis had "Cloud Nine", "I Can't Get Next To You", "Psychedelic Shack", "Papa Was A Rolling Stone", and "Shakey Ground".

Even the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame recognizes that.

Rest In Peace, Dennis Edwards.

I agree that Dennis and Jean were rare exceptions -

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Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

I agree that Dennis and Jean were rare exceptions -

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I don't think so. Billy Griffin gave the Miracles their greatest selling record, "Love Machine" after replacing Smokey Robinson.

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Originally Posted by marv2

I don't think so. Billy Griffin gave the Miracles their greatest selling record, "Love Machine" after replacing Smokey Robinson.

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Actually, I think technically Griffin's voice is probably better than Smokey's though Smokey had the nuances and instincts of a really great singer. But Marv, you didn't feel that their voices were too similar for Griffin to stand out on his own?

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Originally Posted by marv2

I don't think so. Billy Griffin gave the Miracles their greatest selling record, "Love Machine" after replacing Smokey Robinson.

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I loved the "New" Miracles. Their Renaisance album was a classic. One of my all time favorite songs was and is "Don't Let It End [[Til Yoou LLet It Begin)".

Jean, Dennis, Billy were all good replacements. And we should put Teddy Pendergrass in that group since he was not original lead singer of HMBN, but he brought them their greatest success.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ38FCKj5AQ

@milven, I agree. I also loved "What is a Heart Good For" and "Give Me Just Another Day." Great performances.

The only problem i have with replacements is that somehow the legacy is lessened,now as for dennis he's as much a temp as anyone,as for damon harris he sounded more like eddie than anyone who came after,but he had a different nasal tone which you could pick up if you listen closely,as for me personally i want a replacement to sound as much like the member being replaced as possible[the reason louis price didn't work was he sounded like jerry butler]and that wasn't the temps sound,if i may use the drifters as an example,listen to david baughn who replaced clyde or rudy lewis who replaced ben e. King.

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Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

I agree that Dennis and Jean were rare exceptions -

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The Supremes are known to the majority public solely as Diana Ross and the Supremes.

This is a fact; from "Where Did Our Love Go", "Baby Love", "Come See About Me", "Stop! In The Name Of Love", "You Can't Hurry Love", "You Keep Me Hangin' On", "Reflections", "Someday We'll Be Together"; "Up The Ladder Through The Roof" was and is not as pop-culturally memorable, aside from as for those all-time Supremes fans whose chosen to dig deeper past "Someday We'll Be Together".

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Originally Posted by Ngroove

The Supremes are known to the majority public solely as Diana Ross and the Supremes.

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And the Miracles are known to the majority solely as Smokey and the Miracles. But Billy brought some big hits to the Miracles, as did Jean to the Supremes, Dennis to the Tempts. Considering that they may have been partially in the shadow of their predecessors, it is quite an achievement that they were able to keep the group on the charts after losing icons like David, Diana, and Smokey.

Dennis was a rare exception imho... like people just accepted him as a <i>TEMPTATION</i> along with Ruff, Eddie, Otis, Paul and Melvin. The other members afterwards don't get the same acknowledgment. Like people would think Eddie sang on "Papa" before thinking of some dude named Damon Harris.

When the Jacksons were inducted in 1997, it was as the Jackson 5 and not the Jacksons, which Randy replaced Jermaine. For many, Randy was the "forgettable" member.

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Originally Posted by kenneth

Actually, I think technically Griffin's voice is probably better than Smokey's though Smokey had the nuances and instincts of a really great singer. But Marv, you didn't feel that their voices were too similar for Griffin to stand out on his own?

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Billy's voice was higher and more melodic. Love Uncle Smokey, but that is just a fact. Smokey had more emotion in his voice that made the ladies get moist. LOL!

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Originally Posted by milven

I loved the "New" Miracles. Their Renaisance album was a classic. One of my all time favorite songs was and is "Don't Let It End [[Til Yoou LLet It Begin)".

Jean, Dennis, Billy were all good replacements. And we should put Teddy Pendergrass in that group since he was not original lead singer of HMBN, but he brought them their greatest success.

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The "New" Miracles were great! Motown should have done more with them. I would love to have seen/heard them team up with Mary, Cindy and Scherrie- The Supremes for an album or tour.


Let's not forget the magnificent John Edwards who replaced Phillipe Wynne in the Spinners giving them hits into the 80s!

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Originally Posted by Ngroove

The Supremes are known to the majority public solely as Diana Ross and the Supremes.

This is a fact; from "Where Did Our Love Go", "Baby Love", "Come See About Me", "Stop! In The Name Of Love", "You Can't Hurry Love", "You Keep Me Hangin' On", "Reflections", "Someday We'll Be Together"; "Up The Ladder Through The Roof" was and is not as pop-culturally memorable, aside from as for those all-time Supremes fans whose chosen to dig deeper past "Someday We'll Be Together".

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I think you are correct. It was in Mary's second book where she said even though they'd had several Top 10 hits with Terrell, the audiences didn't seem to know their newer songs.

The general public only thinks of Diana Ross when they think of the Supremes. As Mary put in her book, the public seemed to accept new members of the Temptations more readily and they were much more of a revolving door than the Supremes. Dennis Edwards became the lead of the Tempts so he did get recognition. Cindy was eased into the Supremes and she was not the lead so she was accepted more easily. I think Jean and later Scherrie had the unenviable task of replacing Diana Ross, who Motown was 1000% behind to make her a superstar, even if she was deserving. Jean and Scherrie were maybe technically better singers but Motown wasn't going to push them or Mary because it would have said that Diana being Motown's choice was wrong and these ladies have more to offer. Jean recorded one album leaving Motown and it was excellent but went nowhere and she didn't really tour for it. Perhaps, Jean was her own worst enemy with regarding success. Scherrie has hit the charts a few times sans the Supremes but also was not as focused on pursuing superstardom. No, the replacements are not given their due by Motown fans, so how can we expect the general public to do so-yet Dennis, Jean,Scherrie & Billy all had top 40 hits and did a great job of being the lead replacement in legendary groups.

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Originally Posted by kenneth

I think you are correct. It was in Mary's second book where she said even though they'd had several Top 10 hits with Terrell, the audiences didn't seem to know their newer songs.

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And just about anywhere that still plays "oldies" still regularly plays "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" in regularity.

Think about the Supremes like the Platters; yes, Sonny Turner is great in his own right, and he did extend their list well into the mid sixties with "I Love You 1000 Times" and "With This Ring"; but regardless, the Platters, seemingly no matter what, will mostly only be known by the majority, for their previous decades' "Only You", "Twilight Time", and "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes".

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Originally Posted by Ngroove

The Supremes are known to the majority public solely as Diana Ross and the Supremes.

This is a fact; from "Where Did Our Love Go", "Baby Love", "Come See About Me", "Stop! In The Name Of Love", "You Can't Hurry Love", "You Keep Me Hangin' On", "Reflections", "Someday We'll Be Together"; "Up The Ladder Through The Roof" was and is not as pop-culturally memorable, aside from as for those all-time Supremes fans whose chosen to dig deeper past "Someday We'll Be Together".

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It is interesting that you say ""Up The Ladder Through The Roof" was and is not as pop-culturally memorable, aside from as for those all-time Supremes fans whose chosen to dig deeper" when that song is the most covered song ever recorded by Motown. It has become like a standard among high school and college choirs, quartets and various vocal ensembles today. It is sung is schools all over America.....today!

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Originally Posted by midnightman

For many, Randy was the "forgettable" member.

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Which is sad considering that Randy had "pure" talent. It's a shame that he wasn't able to parlay his last name into a successful career apart from his brothers. Even the Randy and the Gypsies stuff was very good.

There are three kinds of difficult replacements. For the sake of this discussion I'll christen them the Diana type, the David type, and the Florence type. The Diana type is the most difficult group member to replace. The Diana type is considered the front person, the lead, maybe even the face. The Diana type has become that which identifies the group. For the general public, when the Diana type leaves, sometimes so does public interest. Sometimes even the fanship moves on, either with the Diana type into the singer's solo career, or abandoning both.

The David type is still a dangerous replacement issue, but not as difficult as the Diana type. The David type is identifiable but not necessarily the life blood of the group. A David type's replacement has to be carefully considered but there's a bit more of a cushion for error as there are other group members to keep the brand moving along.

The Florence type is the easiest group member to replace but difficult just the same. A Flo type is one who is beloved by the public, is sure to be missed, but because the group's dynamic [[with the public) mostly hinges on the Diana or David type, the Flo type replacement mostly just has to make the public comfortable with the switch. Nothing too crazy as to throw off what the public has come to love.

Jean and Billy had incredible shoes to fill stepping into the roles of damn near exclusive lead singers. Their groups already had a thing going on and the roles they stepped into had already been so clearly defined, especially Jean's. Luckily for both, Motown hooked them up with good records that kept them in the public's good graces.

Dennis' transition was probably a little easier because for all the talk about David and his role in the group, the Temptations were a quintessential GROUP. Everybody had a role. Everybody had a lead. David wanted the Tempts to be all about him but it never was. Eddie's voice was probably nearly as identifiable as David's was. Dennis had the benefit of being eased in by four men who could [[and did) help carry the load. The fact that Dennis was an exciting singer/performer in his own right probably helped the public go "okay, we can get with this dude" in replacing someone as unique as David.

Cindy Birdsong has spoken about how difficult it was stepping into Florence's shoes. The public loved Flo. She was one third of the most popular female singing group...one third of the most popular American group at the time. Of course she was going to be missed. And it made sense that Motown would seek out someone who had a "similar" look and, while I wouldn't say Flo and Cindy had a similar sound, Cindy was capable of singing the top harmony, which was Flo's thing, and so it made sense that Motown would replace Flo with a soprano. And of course Cindy's job was made even the more difficult because there was controversy over the reason why Flo left. Motown and Flo had a standard answer but the streets were saying something else. But as difficult as all of that must have been, Cindy was coming into a group where most of the pressure- and the spotlight- was on the Diana type...as in Diana Ross herself.

My idea about replacements is that they are what they are. As long as the music continues to be great, kudos to them for a job well done.

Some make lasting impressions and last years,while others are barely a blimp on the music radar screen..ricky owens comes to mind,most don't remember him even being a temp which is too bad because he was a good singer who just didn't fit.

One replacement often forgotten is Yvonne Allen/Verneewhose voice I adore for its gentle strength. Interviewed she said Motown askedher to hold back to resemble Saundra [[whose voice I also like) but onceMotorcity let her cut loose you get to hear her effortlessly conquer swing-jazzon “Take The Train”, great soul on “Don’t Wait Around” and, of course, get acrack at the Bonnie Pointer arrangement of “Heaven”. In the videos released inUK during their 90’s tour it’s fun to see Cleo and the others joshing aroundwith her backstage she seems such a bubbly personality and a newsclip of aDetroit event posted on this forum a little while back showed her looking asvibrant as ever. To me a wonderful and much underrated performer I so hope tohear and see again.

Apparently, Eddie was more difficult to replace than David. His replacement Ricky Owens only lasted two shows! The fact that the Temptations has the number one record with one of Eddie’s signature songs, didn’t help much either!

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

There are three kinds of difficult replacements. For the sake of this discussion I'll christen them the Diana type, the David type, and the Florence type. The Diana type is the most difficult group member to replace. The Diana type is considered the front person, the lead, maybe even the face. The Diana type has become that which identifies the group. For the general public, when the Diana type leaves, sometimes so does public interest. Sometimes even the fanship moves on, either with the Diana type into the singer's solo career, or abandoning both.

The David type is still a dangerous replacement issue, but not as difficult as the Diana type. The David type is identifiable but not necessarily the life blood of the group. A David type's replacement has to be carefully considered but there's a bit more of a cushion for error as there are other group members to keep the brand moving along.

The Florence type is the easiest group member to replace but difficult just the same. A Flo type is one who is beloved by the public, is sure to be missed, but because the group's dynamic [[with the public) mostly hinges on the Diana or David type, the Flo type replacement mostly just has to make the public comfortable with the switch. Nothing too crazy as to throw off what the public has come to love.

Jean and Billy had incredible shoes to fill stepping into the roles of damn near exclusive lead singers. Their groups already had a thing going on and the roles they stepped into had already been so clearly defined, especially Jean's. Luckily for both, Motown hooked them up with good records that kept them in the public's good graces.

Dennis' transition was probably a little easier because for all the talk about David and his role in the group, the Temptations were a quintessential GROUP. Everybody had a role. Everybody had a lead. David wanted the Tempts to be all about him but it never was. Eddie's voice was probably nearly as identifiable as David's was. Dennis had the benefit of being eased in by four men who could [[and did) help carry the load. The fact that Dennis was an exciting singer/performer in his own right probably helped the public go "okay, we can get with this dude" in replacing someone as unique as David.

Cindy Birdsong has spoken about how difficult it was stepping into Florence's shoes. The public loved Flo. She was one third of the most popular female singing group...one third of the most popular American group at the time. Of course she was going to be missed. And it made sense that Motown would seek out someone who had a "similar" look and, while I wouldn't say Flo and Cindy had a similar sound, Cindy was capable of singing the top harmony, which was Flo's thing, and so it made sense that Motown would replace Flo with a soprano. And of course Cindy's job was made even the more difficult because there was controversy over the reason why Flo left. Motown and Flo had a standard answer but the streets were saying something else. But as difficult as all of that must have been, Cindy was coming into a group where most of the pressure- and the spotlight- was on the Diana type...as in Diana Ross herself.

My idea about replacements is that they are what they are. As long as the music continues to be great, kudos to them for a job well done.

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impeccably stated! I might add that Dennis also was a natural performer in the same vein that david was and so he wasn’t adapting to another style. One of the problems with Jean Terrel was that her vocal style and musical interest was not the Supremes style of music. She resented being told to sing like Ross, And I don’t blame her… Yet her to biggest hits with the group where that very seeing style she despised. Jean wasn’t more soulful singer than diana there’s no question about it, and jeans talent has never been questioned, but that doesn’t mean that’s what the public wanted from the Supremes as evidenced by their slow but steady decline from their strong start. This business of blaming Motown, or berry Gordy, or Jean to Ralph, to me are ridiculous. I believe that Motown try to hard as they could to get the Supremes going and that they felt that Jean would be a great replacement for ross. It doesn’t make sense to select a replacement as much talent as Jean Terrel, and then say the Motown did not want them to succeed. Well count could’ve picked a much much much less talented person if that were the case. Sometimes replacements just don’t work out. I think all replacements deserve recognition for their contributions, But it is very very very very rare to get a smooth transition like they did with Dennis. That being said however, I do think it gave Motown a false sense of security when it came time to replacing ross.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Which is sad considering that Randy had "pure" talent. It's a shame that he wasn't able to parlay his last name into a successful career apart from his brothers. Even the Randy and the Gypsies stuff was very good.

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Randy was the "hard rock" Jackson as well. That wasn't gonna gel well with a public who expected a Jackson to just sing and dance and do choreo.