I love the rare anecdote where Diana is said to address her past actions that bother someone. Shows she isn't always deaf when people bring up something she said or did that hurt them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9R5EBRRNzo
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I love the rare anecdote where Diana is said to address her past actions that bother someone. Shows she isn't always deaf when people bring up something she said or did that hurt them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9R5EBRRNzo
agreed - everyone is on a journey and grows. I don't know when it was that they met up again and all but it's great that they've moved on. same with her relationship with other celebrities.
i also applaud Sheryl for recognition her component of the situation. she didn't excuse diana but she clearly understood that first meeting and Diana's perspective.
My question is, Sheryl mentions the Dreamgirls movie being sued. I don't think I've ever heard this. Who sued, Motown?
She mentions that she was cautioned not to play Deena as Diana Ross because of the possibility of being sued, but I'm guessing somewhere along the way that fear was abandoned, because I saw a video of, I think, the national tour cast around 1984 or so doing a medley of the show's songs on a tv show, and I don't know the young lady's name who played Deena, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone in the business who screamed Diana Ross in every way. She looked and sounded like her. She moved like her. I can't imagine that there's anyone out there who would have ever been a better candidate to play the actual Diana Ross, if a biopic had a chance in the 80s.
That was the fabulous Linda Leilani Brown. And yes, she gave great Ross.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
https://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=swope_1134126&t=w
i think there was some angst about how the berry gordy character was portrayed in the movie. the whole payola issue. i don't know that there was actually a lawsuit. odds are Sheryl was just referring to the overall issues that Smokey and others had.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
and as for her portrayal of DR, to me it sounds like she's still repeated the canned answer of "of course this isn't about Diana Ross" but meanwhile that is EXACTLY what they intended.
Yes, that was her! I'm gonna do a little research, find out her story.Quote:
Originally Posted by sansradio
As a kid I also thought Jonelle Allen would have made a great Diana.
Yeah. I remember Jennifer Holiday being ticked that Jennifer Hudson shouted out Flo at the Oscars or Golden Globes. She keeps saying the role was created for her and had nothing to do with Florence, although that's exactly who inspired the role. Not to mention a few other women played Effie, including the late great Nell Carter, during the workshop phase of the play before anyone knew who Jennifer Holiday was.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
I remember ET doing a story on Linda when the musical was running in LA. They really played up the Diana angle, even showing screenshots of Diana on Ed Sullivan.Quote:
Originally Posted by sansradio
Jennifer Holliday is partially correct. The role of Effie pre-dated her coming into the workshops when Nell Carter was still attached to the project. Once Holliday replaced her and the creators realized what a force she was that they crafted Effie around her talents. She left the workshop when the original plot had Effie dying at the end of act one. This is when Jenifer Lewis stepped in to play Effie. The creators rewrote it so Effie lived and was a nurse in Act Two to entice Holliday back, but Effie didn't have much to do so Holliday quit again. This is when they rewrote the show into what we know today and she returned.
I want to say there was threat of a lawsuit from Gordy but Bill Condon and Paramount apologized and he backed off. When the film first came out, I loved it but over the years I've changed my opinion. While still enjoyable, the obvious attempt to blur the lines does a great disservice to both the show and the Supremes. I wish the film was more faithful to the stage show. Not to mention there were a lot of miscasts - Beyonce being one. I would love to see this get a live telecast production.
Interesting info on the stage show brad. Why do you think Beyoncé was miscast?. She certainly didn’t steal the film that’s for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes
I like the music with Beyonce better - i have to say i find the original with Sheryl to be too piercing and fast. but Beyonce was so paranoid to have the nastier parts of Deena for fear of people comparing it to her own experience with DC that they watered the part down to nothing. of course, B is not necessarily a powerful actor so maybe that was also for the bestQuote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes
i had some other issues with the film
1. the look - it sort of seems to want to be a colorful tribute to the mod 60s but never really goes there. Look at what the show Mad Men did and you'll get a sense of what i'm talking about. it doesn't need to be cartoonish or over the top, but the style of everything was just too subdued
2. outfits - all of the Dreams and DJATD gowns were ghastly. I know the costume designer wanted to be a bit more revealing than what the Sups wore, which for the most part was really quite modest. but the colors, styles, etc just looked cheap
3. Jamie Foxx - i thought he was terrible. or maybe it was how they'd altered the role. but he was as 1 dimensional as Cal was as the rich villain in Titanic. it was so 1 sided, no nuances of character. nothing.
i think she was miscast because she isn't a strong actress. she doesn't have the chops to take the character where it needed to go. also she is SO protective of her persona of "Beyonce" that she was totally unable to play a woman that is manipulative, aggressive, conflicted, scheming, sexual, vulnerable, powerful, scared. Those are words that describe the real Deena. but B was too worried that if she played Deena as it was written that people would say "ahhhh that's just like what B did to those other girls in DC"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
I agree with a lot of what sup_fan said regarding the look and feel of the film. It didn't quite feel completely it was the 60s. The gowns really could have been something but instead they are quite lackluster especially in comparison to the original shows gowns and wigs which were incredibly authentic to the time period. I should also mention the music itself was a bit too contemporary - they really could have made it authentic 60s but didn't which I think was a mistake. The other issue was how Act Two was handled. Condon kept the basic structure, but rewrote a lot of it and some great things were lost like the Act II Vegas Opening and Lorrell's only solo number "Ain't No Party."
As for Deena, I wouldn't say that she was a woman who was manipulative, scheming, or aggressive. If anything she was a much more vulnerable character, a tool of Curtis to get what he wanted and she went along with it. Beyonce was totally wrong for the part. I know many think she was an obvious choice because of who she was, but 1.) Beyonce is not that great of an actress to pull off the role, 2.) Deena needs a vulnerability to her. Beyonce portrayed her too powerfully and strong. Effie is the strong one. 3.) Similar to #2 - Beyonce was too vocally strong for Deena. The whole point of her being lead is that she has a commercial, but easy, non-threatening voice. If she has the same vocal chops as Effie then it kinda defeats the purpose of the plot.
I would dare to say that most of the cast with the exception of Eddie Murphy were a miscast. I know Jennifer Hudson won the Oscar for her performance, but like Beyonce, she was missing something. I've seen videos and heard audio of the ladies who did Effie during the Broadway run and during the national tours and those ladies could wail and act the hell out of the part. All of them I would say were better at the role than Hudson. I don't think I had too much of an issue with Jamie Foxx in the role of Curtis, but I had heard that Terrence Howard was approached and I would have liked to see how he would have handled the part.
Good points. I found her portrayal of Deena to be very one dimensional, though she was working within the confines of the script. Never saw the stage version so can’t really compare what might have been.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
I wonder what kind of reaction Mary Wilson’s book might have received had it been turned into a film. Hopefully a little more depth of character than what we got.
It really was no surprise when Jennifer Hudson walked away with all the plaudits.
I agree about the portrayal of the Effie White character on stage, but do wonder if Jennifer was encouraged to tone down some of the emotions for the rather sugar coated film version. Her actual singing was great i thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes
i also agree about Jennifer. she did a nice job. she certainly had the vocal chops for And I'm Telling You. but IMO it was like watching a very very good community theater or college production. jennifer just doesn't have the acting skills to handle the necessary REACTING that makes a role great. it was more "ok in this scene i'm sad. in this scene i'm mad. in this scene i sing" And maybe on stage it might have worked ok because you don't have close ups. but in a film, you need so much more expression with your eyes and facial muscles. jennifer just didn't have the experience or ability to draw on that. so her performance just comes across a bit flat or amateurish.
i wonder if this sort of helps demonstrate the whole diana and lyrics thing that we've discussed many times in other threadsQuote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
Diana is a master when it comes to interpreting lyrics. whether it's something written just for her like Baby Love, some Michael Masser r&b/pop-soap opera like It's My Turn, MOR like I Am Woman or My Funny Valentine, the tv extra material they did like Cole Porter or Millie/Rose/Mame. i would imagine in the studios, she would sort of "become" the person from which the point of view of the song was written. so in essence, she was acting while in the studio, channeling the thoughts and emotions the underlie the lyrics and meaning of the song in order to express that through music
so when it was time for Diana to take on the complexities of the Billie Holiday role, she could tap into that.
and this isn't to say that every song or acting experience Diana did was magic. clearly in the 80s, she wasn't doing this channeling in the studio as often.
But I don't know that jennifer is that type of a vocalist. and honestly - i don't know because i don't know a lot of her music. My GUESS [[and it's just that) is i don't think she has that innate sense with lyrics like DR. maybe some of that was age too. jennifer certainly could handle And I'm Telling You from a vocal perspective. she has the big full soulful tone, she had the soulful runs. she had the basic feeling of "i'm hurt" but she didn't have the total distress and panic and shock and variety of feelings coming through like Jennifer Holiday did. Watching the Tony performance of jennifer and you see she is nearly coming to her wits end. Effie is nearly having a total mental and personal collapse right before our eyes. And sure, jennifer couldn't simply copy jennifer. but she needed to show somehow that she wasn't just mad at curtis/deena and hurt by there actions. she needed to show that she has just realized her entire world has collapsed, that she realizes all of backstabbing and underhandedness has essentially destroyed her.
I certainly agree regarding Jennifer Holidays performance on stage, but still think Hudson may have been less encouraged to give that kind of heart wrennching performance in what is a generally tame film. Remember also the film featured a much bigger star in Beyoncé that may or may not have had something to do with this. Just speculation of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
I tend to think Jennifer Hudson just didn't have the full emotion in her to deliver the songs the way Holliday did. However it has been stated that while Holliday could rip into a song like no other, her acting skills lacked and her portrayal of Effie was also one-dimensional. I've read reports from folks who saw the show later in the Broadway run, LA production, and national tours after Holliday left and Effie replacements like Lilias White, Sharon Brown, Julia McGirt gave more impactful performances because they were accomplished actresses who were able to bring more to the role than just belting out songs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
another problem i have with the movie [[and maybe the show but i've not seen the stage show) is how quickly they move through the problems The Dreams had. you literally see about 3 things that are supposed to make all of this angst and turmoil. there's the initial incident of making Deena lead. then the press conference scene where Curtis talks about Deena being the entire ice cream sundae and you see Jennifer struggling to hold a smile. then the recording studio where Effie storms out. and the Heavy scene. all of this happens in about 5 mins of run time. and then WHAM we're supposed to have this Act 1 finale of And I'm Telling You. but i always felt they hadn't gone nearly far enough with showing the deterioration of everyone's relationship.
in Randy's Beyonce book, he offers up some fascinating insights around the whole problem of B and Dreamgirls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
1. B isn't that gifted of an actress, so she was always going to struggle with such a complex role
2. the subject matter was frankly just too close to home. and if not with the reality of what DC went through, then at least with the public perception. playing Deena would only further identify her as the out of control diva bitch which too many people already saw her as
3. the top climatic moment belongs to another character along with the most climatic song. and being a singer, she's not included on the top song of the score
4. the primary dramatic arc of the show is not about her character. B is the biggest star in reality but the character is not the biggest star of the show
5. the revisions to the character that B required essentially eliminates all of the opportunity for her to do anything of interest. the new character is so bland, that even if she could act, there's nothing to do.
6. the revisions from B now make for a messy and too complicated second act. you have to find a way for both Deena and Effie to have redemptive arcs and it comes across as just pandering. and the other Dreams are essentially sidelined through the entire show and are just blank background people.
The stage show is similar in that the deterioration of the group happens toward the end of Act One and fast, but again, there are elements in the stage show that weren't used in the film that should have been:Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
- First, Curtis makes Deena the lead singer which starts to cause problems.
- After their debut "Dreamgirls," there is a press conference but it is Deena who leads it [[sings it) while Lorrell and Effie stand behind her. Afterward, Curtis sings how he will make her the greatest star and how it will only be her while Effie watches on. In this scene, Curtis kisses Deena.
- This leads into "Heavy" TV scene where they perform until Effie notices all of the monitors are on Deena and then stops performing and walks off. The girls get into an argument backstage about Deena and Curtis seeing each other and how Effie felt Deena took away the lead from her. Following there is a quick costume change where the girls burst through the curtain as if they are performing live when Effie acts out and starts singing the lead over Deena which then causes a battle between the two trying to out-sing each other.
- Again, there is another argument backstage but this time Curtis enters and he and Effie get into it. The film version combines this scene with the TV one eliminating the live version of "Heavy" and the first argument between the girls. In the Boston tryout, there was a third performance of "Heavy" with just Deena and Lorrell showing Effie missing performances but this was cut before Broadway.
- This all leads into the Vegas scene where "It's All Over" and "And I'm Telling You I'm Not Going" and the explanation of Effie's issues. In the stage show, this takes place in the dressing room. In the film version, it's on stage before the showroom doors open.
Interesting insight regarding Jennifer Holiday brad. Not a good thing if it’s only the big numbers she delivered on. I was never motivated enough to see the stage show, but kinda wish i had seen it now. Not the same as seeing it on you tube.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes
interesting! but i still wonder if there's sufficient development of the problems in order to really capture the power of the And i'm Telling You scene. and it could just be that i'm being WAY too particular and comparing it to the supremes which was really more of a long, slow burn rather than just a couple key events.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes
with a movie, you could have had events and then also had a montage effect. but of course they used that to show the group rocketing to stardom.
The show wouldn't have worked if Holliday wasn't believable in the role, but her acting wasn't her strong point and the YouTube videos of the original cast prove it. I've read some who saw the show many times say they were more satisfied with some of the ladies who took over after Holliday left. The vocal deliveries may not have been as guttural as Holliday, but they were able to interpret the role their own way and give it more color. I've heard several of them sing "I Am Changing" and "And I'm Telling You I'm Not Going" and it was refreshing to hear them do things that Holliday wasn't able to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
The stage show was built to be cinematic and fast-moving. Sets would fly in and out, incredibly fast costume changes, songs blending right into the next, etc. I think the stage version was better at showing the problems. The film version for some reason neglected that, but it is fast-moving just like the stage. They had more opportunity to show it on film. On stage, the time from Effie being told she's no longer to singing lead to the end of act one probably takes up 1/3 to 1/2 of the act. Effie's temperament and attitude though is clear from the beginning so we know she has issues not wanting to take direction or willingly do what others ask of her right from the beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
I can't do much commenting on the movie. I saw it once, maybe twice. Haven't seen it in more than a decade. I wasn't impressed and honestly, I was so disgusted at the changes made for the film that made the Dreams even more like the Supremes that it all left a bad taste in my mouth.
I've seen bits and pieces of the original Broadway show on Youtube and I have the original cast album. The cast album is a bit disappointing because some songs didn't make the album [[I wonder if they were recorded at all), while others, like "One Night Only" was condensed into one whole song- a verse or two and chorus of Effie's version and then a full Dreams version- and I don't understand why these decisions were made. As is, I do love the music for the album.
I also have the Dreamgirls In Concert cd with Audra McDonald, Lilias White and Heather Hedley. I really enjoy it too. Jennifer Holliday's "And I Am Telling You" is such a hard act to follow. Hudson did a great job. I've heard Sharon Brown's version and she was great as well, although it was a bit different. I'm a huge fan of Roz Ryan and always figured she killed "And I Am Telling You" when she played Effie. I was so disappointed when I finally got a chance to hear it. She was good, but I thought it would've been much better. Anyway, I said all of that to say this: I've heard Lillias do "And I", both on the In Concert project and in a clip from her time in the Broadway show...meh. It has it's moments, but...meh. However, her version of "I Am Changing" on the In Concert cd cannot, IMO, be topped.
I have audio via Youtube- don't know if it's still up- of Jennifer Holliday doing "Gonna Be My Time". I'm guessing that it was switched out for "One Night Only" because the Dreams also do a version of "Gonna Be My Time". I love both of these numbers. I think "One Night Only" is ultimately the better song for what they were trying to accomplish, but man, I really love to hear both versions.
I also have audio of Nell Carter doing "One Night Only" when she was playing Effie. For me she has the version.
I think I'm in the minority that actually prefers "Gonna Be My Time" over "One Night Only." The Dreams' version sounds a true authentic disco song and it plays into the narrative of each girl's aspirations. "One Night Only" doesn't really contribute much in that way. If I was producing a Broadway revival, I would actually drop "One Night Only" in favor of "Gonna Be My Time."Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Ke-t3uPGI
I agree that the lyrics are certainly more relevant as regards the story line, but find “One Night Only” a stronger song overall. Would be difficult to choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsupremes