RanRan and Boogie: your respectful, reasonable and rational posts don’t belong in a forum like this. Can you take them somewhere else please before something bad happens?
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RanRan and Boogie: your respectful, reasonable and rational posts don’t belong in a forum like this. Can you take them somewhere else please before something bad happens?
You know, I do love Mary. I found what she did with her book in poor taste frankly, but she has every right to publish her side of things...and make money doing so. And I’m glad we have it to read! I do find it interesting though that Mary threads dominate this forum so much haha
The Supremes were Motown's 'Beatles', so they should dominate this site!
Alright Boogie, you're in black, I'm in blue.
"OK , but I’m sure Diana had more than a sleep on the couch to offer. She now had years of LA exposure / interactions."
Could be. That part of the conversation isn't known [[outside of the parties involved). I just can't imagine Diana being tight with any of the movers and shakers in the business outside of Motown at that point, so I'd be surprised that this was something she could offer. But it's definitely possible.
“try” - how did that fail exactly?"
Mystery surrounds this. We covered it in a recent thread but the thread was deleted. The story goes that Diana heard about Flo's inability to pay the mortgage, found out how much was owed, and wrote a check to cover it. Diana wanted to go through Flo to take care of this but somehow Tommy got in the way and wanted Diana to deal with him, which of course she refused to do. As a result, so the story goes, Diana was unable to save Flo's home. According to Flo's sister Maxine, Diana made attempts to contact Florence but Flo refused to take Diana's calls. According to Flo's words about Diana not helping her, it appears that she was unaware of Diana offering assistance. I have questions about some of this, particularly the role Tommy is said to have played, which makes no sense. It's a mystery.
"Performing once and then doing nothing more as eight months pass , I’m going to give that effort an “interested” with a small "i"."
And that might be accurate if Florence was 18 with no obligations. How easy do you think it is to jumpstart a singing career with three small children? Nothing about her suggests she was the type of mother who would have thrown caution to the wind and went out chasing record deals and club appearances without making sure she had a firm foundation for her children. Not to mention she was still trying to recover from the down years [[lack of singing, weight gain, psychology) and deal with the lawsuit settlement which finally allowed her to get off assistance and make a new home for her children. I think she did enough to perform and then reconnect with former Motown buddies Diana Ross and Jack Ashford. Had she not died a few months later, who knows what she would have gone on to do. But a singing career doesn't happen overnight, not even when making a comeback.
"Its not a commentary against Flo . My answer was in regards to “having the ability to operate within a relationship that keeps everyone in line.” When it came to her husband , apparently not ."
No one can be all things to all people all the time. Maybe Tommy was her Kryptonite? Everyone has one.
"Fine , but again I’m saying Mary and Diana would not likely be seeking Flo’s motherliness at this stage of the game."
Agreed, but if you know "motherliness" the way I know it, you don't have to seek it out to get it. Florence doesn't strike me as the type of person who waits to be asked her thoughts. Lol
"Imo Diana would not be interested. It would be going backwards for her , she's maintained that notion and distanced herself from anything Supremes , a stance I think she'd hold steadfast to, Flo or no Flo."
Good point, but at some point that's exactly what she did, which is how we got the RTL debacle.
"But how did people get screwed ? Cindy and Mary got to go on being Supremes [[successfully) while Diana got to go on to do her thing."
I posted my thoughts in a thread about where blame lay in the Supremes breakup sometime ago. I don't think I could reproduce my words any better now than I did then. So I'm going to search for that thread and if found [[I don't think it was one of the ones deleted) I'll post the link in this thread for your reading pleasure and to get your thoughts. Stay tuned.
"OK but I think you are making this whole Supremes thing sound a bit sacred. They weren’t joined at the hip , they didn’t make a pact to stay together into their eighties [[as far as I know) , they weren’t even family. Hell even the Jackson brothers split at some point!"
See my previous reply.;)
"Weren’t Eddie and David and the rest pretty desperate at this point? Diana never was. "
True, but I wouldn't rule out Diana being "talked" into it. [[As much as Ross could be talked into anything. Lol)
"And meanwhile Flo was reuniting with an abusive husband . I know you are squeamish about that , but nonetheless , I don’t consider that move on her part to be evidence of maturing. "
Right, because once one matures, every decision that is made is always good and mature? If that's been your experience, how blessed you are. I consider myself mature at 30something, but admittedly I make poor decisions every now and again, especially when I allow my feelings to overrule my good sense.
"Thank you, there is an effort , but its surprising to me how so much can get lost in the translation!"
But that's communication, and it's also where maturity comes into play. We write something and it's interpreted in a different way. It's good when the parties can go back and forth in understanding, as opposed to going back and forth in confusion and insults and negativity. This forum would run much more smoothly if people communicated more effectively.
The Supremes were the biggest thing to happen to Motown, that's why I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one) about why the group and it's individual singers dominate conversations around here. It's like someone complaining about Elvis dominating an RCA forum. Some folks just like to complain.
Boogie, I found the thread. Here's the portion where I give you some idea about my thoughts on what went wrong with this group. It was in reply to something someone else had said, so keep that in mind if there are parts that don't quite make sense on their own. The bold faced red parts is my general way of answering your question of- and I'm paraphrasing- "what part did Diana play in the breakup of the group".
"The world is a rough place. And don't forget, all of these people were so very young. I'll admit that I can be a bit hard on Berry Gordy because he was the head man in charge and he was- relatively speaking- considerably older than the Supremes, so in my mind I often feel like he should have known better than say certain things, do certain things, react in certain ways, etc. But in actuality Gordy was a very young man in his 30s when all of this drama was taking place. None of the Supremes were really equipped to deal with the reality that their fame became, and quite often that's attributed to their impoverished background and parents who were, more or less, not very worldly. But Gordy was in a similar boat in the sense that he was in uncharted territory for a Black man at that time. The stress on the girls was one thing, but I've never really contemplated what the stress may have been like for Berry. Now this is no excuse for what I do believe were his chauvinistic mind games that he often played with the three girls, Florence in particular. But keeping his age in mind might also explain how immature some of his antics were [["I agree with Diane, you're fat Flo"...wtf kind of school yard crap is that?).
Being rational definitely wasn't in the picture. Rational would have been Gordy figuring out how to make Diana "the greatest star" without alienating Flo and Mary or attempting to diminish their roles in the group. Rational would have been Florence understanding that she had a job to do and either she do what is asked or she find something else to do with her life. So often today major stars are ridiculed for not having real world values, but I find it a little interesting that Florence is given a pass that just about everyone on this forum [[who has a job) would be fired for if we went on our jobs with Flo's mentality.
Compassion most certainly wasn't involved. Compassion would have been Diana taking a moment to think about someone other than herself. Her mind was hellbent on being DIANA ROSS and doing whatever to get there that she didn't take a moment to wonder- until well after she left the group- what her special treatment was doing to her friends. She knew people were being required to address her as Miss, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was being given her own dressing room, but not Flo and Mary. She knew she was going to interviews early so she could have solo time while Flo and Mary were arriving late. Compassion would have been Diana advocating for Flo and Mary. Instead she was often indifferent or at times, if Flo's story about the charity commercial filming is accurate, she actively worked against them."
Clearly I wasn't referring to you, hence the part of my post- which you reproduced- where I say "I don't understand the criticism by some in other threads [[not this one)". I took your original comment as an observation, not criticism or a complaint. I must question if your response to me is even a legit gripe or if your intention was to stir something up, in the wake of the comments about civility. If the latter, you try again. Have a good morning.
I'll admit I've complained about it. And I'll continue to do so. For me it is because they almost always end up in nastiness and pettiness [[for instance, see below). It gets old and tiresome, as if there is little else to Motown than petty squabbles between Supremes fans.
I get complaining about the arguments. You and I have sung in that choir together for quite some time now [[and we don't fight over who gets to take the lead!:p). But some of the complaints I've seen are about Supremes/Diana/Mary threads in general, and that makes no sense to me, as in the example I gave previously about Elvis. But it is sad that most threads about the group devolve into arguments about various Supremes, and usually it's the handful of same screennames that jump right into it.
You guys have had a great discussion.
I guess it has been determined that Mary did not attend the show incognito or otherwise? Nobody was sitting next to her?
'
Ha !!!! thanks for that needed laugh Tom Tom ! By the way you [[or anyone else ) is welcomed to jump in if you have additional thoughts . Open forum! Ran Ran holds his own well , but maybe together we can get this guy to flinch!! :p:p
and I know you're not alluding to that "in the cellar" theory !! lol!!Quote:
RanRan79
https://soulfuldetroit.com/images/st...er-offline.pngBarring a future announcement from Mary or Diana, Rob it appears Mary never made it. The best news is Diana's engagement was successful and wasn't mired in controversy. Well aside from her comments about Cindy. Miss Ross is still knocking them dead.
Good luck with that!!:p
LMAO...I even hate that I mentioned that bullshit. It was ridiculous when it entered whatever thread someone brought it up in and it will forever be ridiculous. The things people come up with around here because they hate Diana Ross and/or Mary Wilson. It's pathetic.
thanks for digging this up Ran ! . Just so you know, I'm not so much challenging you as I am tapping into you for information. Thanks for sharing, i'm learning!
Ok so therein are examples of the regrets you think Diana could own up to concerning how things went down during the Supremes restructuring . I see , thanks again for sharing that Ran . :)
"Why "of course"?"
By most- if not all- accounts, everyone in the know could see that Tommy couldn't be trusted. So I would think it smart on Diana's part that if Tommy was attempting to act as a go between, she would wisely avoid that situation.
"Also, he and Flo are still together at this point, but they are losing the house . So , Tommy doesn't work?"
I've been under the impression that Flo losing the house happened after she filed for divorce from Tommy, so no, I don't believe they were together during this juncture. Cue back to the part in a previous post where I say that Tommy trying to intercept Diana's check doesn't make sense. That's one of the reasons why. As for Tommy and working, I think he always kept a job. I don't recall anything about him being out of work, except maybe a period of time after he was no longer Flo's manager.
"Very odd. [[and not very mature) Why not ??"
Another part of the story that doesn't make sense. And this will tie into the part where you questioned my remark about Florence being unaware of Diana offering assistance. Flo told Peter Benjaminson that if Diana were ever down on her luck and needed anything that Flo would do whatever she could. But Flo supposed that Diana didn't feel the same way, implying that she believed Diana knew she was having difficulties but didn't try to help. I'm taking Flo's words on this. If Diana did attempt to offer help, Florence never knew about it. This calls into question Maxine writing in her book that Flo refused to answer Diana's calls. Other than Maxine flat out lying, the only other explanation for her version of events is the mixing up of time periods. Maxine's story jumps all over the place in her book, and there are times when it's apparent that the timeline she created was a bit off. So I'm thinking any story where Diana is calling and Flo is refusing to take the call may have happened while Flo was still a Supreme and shit had gotten crazy. Although there is one other scenario that I just thought about: Flo claimed that prior to her and Diana's last conversation in 1975, the last time the two of them spoke was in 1971. 1971 was also when Flo sued Motown, naming her former singing partners in the suit, including her claim that Diana maliciously ousted her from the group. Could be that Diana called Flo about the suit and for awhile she dodged her calls before finally speaking. Or maybe they spoke on the phone and Flo didn't like what Diana had to say and when Diana kept trying, Flo refused the calls. At this point Maxine is dead, Flo is dead, so the only other person who could possibly shed factual light here is Diana. Boogie you may be right about the story being twisted.:D
"I would say this claimed house saving effort [[while if true was quite mature on Diana's part) sounds about as halfhearted as Diana's current search for Cindy."
I don't believe Diana ever does anything halfhearted, not when it comes to helping people. It's the one part of her life I wish people talked about more.
"Doesn't seem like the cards were going to line up. Besides all the obstacles you've mentioned, she was going to be a mother for years and years yet. And she'd have to once again contend with that historically abusive husband [[ who seems to have heroically reentered the family picture when there was new found hope and new found money. Did this guy now have a job ?)"
It wasn't in the cards because the woman died several months later. I'm curious to know what you think she should have been doing in order to label her intention to get back into singing as "in the cards"? I would never advise anyone to jump right into anything of that significance. And having a spouse who clearly was unreliable would be the last reason for Florence to leave those children. LOL
"But wouldn't the other two Supremes annoyedly tell her to buzz off. A bossy Flo doesn't strike me as a unifying component at this later juncture."
Real maturity isn't bossy. It's telling it like it is and hoping the folks listening buy into it. You can lead a horse to water...
"But that is the very definition of immature."
No it isn't. And bad decisions does not negate a person's maturity. Florence was an abused woman in the 1970s. Where abused women go, she was the rule, not the exception. Domestic abuse is much more widely understood today and yet 10 million women annually are victims of it. Returning to an abusive spouse doesn't denote a period of mature growth no more than Diana's alcoholism and drunk driving charge at 50 something suddenly made her an immature woman. Now if your position is that once mature always mature decisions, then we'll have to agree to disagree as I do not believe that's even possible.
"And returning this to your initial point about how much more mature Flo had become by then , how much more resolved , and therefore ready to now get back into the swing of things, sorry, I just don't see it and its especially this whole Tommy thing that can't be easily ignored here ."
For me Tommy can be easily ignored. If anything Tommy's presence would've been even more motivation to try again at a singing career since he so obviously loved the potential meal ticket. Bottom line for me is that at age 32 Flo was figuring things out. She received mental help [[something most people, let alone Black women, in the 70s didn't dare think about doing), she was reconciling old relationships, she was singing again, she was back in the money. But it was that performance that I think nailed it. She knew where her place was and I suspect that if death hadn't found her so early, we would have heard a bit more from the great Florence Ballard.
Oh I didn't take anything as a challenge to me, although some of your thoughts are challenging for me to figure out how you come to your conclusions.:p If I'm helping you learn anything, that's great! Your questions and comments also allow me to ponder my opinions and even change them at points. Case in point: me saying Diana wasn't mature in the mid 70s. I'm going to have to revise that. She was indeed a mother and very hands on. Clearly she wasn't the selfish 20 something she had once been. Even attempting to help Flo, that's definitely maturity at work, considering that the two of them haven't always had the best relationship. Sure, she smacked the shit out of Gordy, but as I said in my previous post, it's my opinion that a person can make immature decisions every now and again and still be a mature person.
Except we know that nobody saw Florence as fat. Mary has consistently said that Flo gained weight at a point in the group, yet there is no photographic evidence or video footage that supports the idea that Flo was ever fat. Both Diana and Mary wished they were built like Florence Ballard. That was a sexy ass woman. Gordy was great at mind games and he knew how to get to each girl. Gordy zeroed in on Mary's lack of confidence in her vocals to keep her in line. He knew he couldn't get anywhere with that with Flo. That girl knew above all else that she could sing and you weren't going to convince her otherwise. But trying to make her think that visually she had a problem...well it's the one thing we men know is a sure fire way to hit the confidence of a woman: with her looks. Add in the fact that Flo's mother was morbidly obese and it's possible Gordy was also attempting to play on any fears she had of turning into her mother, as some girls do. That's just mean. Had Gordy been a different kind of man I think he would have known how to run the ship more smoothly and still get the end results he worked toward: making Diana Ross a solo sensation. And he could have done that and kept Flo and Mary happy at the same time.
My point was that Flo is lauded around here for all the times she let Gordy and Diana have it. She's given a pass for missing recording sessions, rehearsals, even a performance. She was just exercising her right to free speech and to respond to suddenly not be happy in the Supremes. But in what other job is this a good idea? What job can any of us cuss our boss out and expect to come in the next day? What job can we skip work we don't want to do and expect to continue employment? It doesn't happen. And while I empathize with and understand Flo's feelings, the way she went about expressing her displeasure ultimately got her booted out of the group she helped make famous. Was Gordy a dick about it? You bet. But I suspect that if Flo had approached her problems in the group with a level head and a calm demeanor, she may never have been fired at all. Of course that would have been the mature [[there's that word again!:p) thing to do, and in her early 20s it's no surprise she didn't take that route.
Flo told one of the biographers [[can't remember if it was J.Randy T or Benjaminson) about the Supremes filming a commercial in 1967 in the Brewster Projects. According to Flo each girl had speaking lines when they arrived. Halfway through filming Diana suddenly stopped and told Gordy that she wanted to do all the lines herself. Even Gordy wasn't pleased with Diana's timing but ultimately agreed with her, to which Flo went off and she and Diana exchanged words, all the while everybody in the projects were watching. When the commercial aired Diana did all the talking. I'm surprised Flo and Mary didn't jump her ass right then and there. How much more of the spotlight did the girl need? LOL
Like I said before, Diana was a selfish 20 something year old girl. Flo was an impetuous 20 something year old girl. And truth be told you could switch either girl for selfish and impetuous. They were acting like normal girls, it's just that there was so much at stake for them than the average young lady their age. Diana has hinted at times of understanding Flo and Mary's positions when Diana was given more attention, but I always want her to just be real.
Interviewer: Mary Wilson wrote a book in which she accused you of being a spotlight hog. Florence Ballard's various anecdotes about you as a singing partner have also been well documented, as have several anecdotes, supposedly, regarding your antics as a member of the Supremes by other authors. Are these things true? Were you really that bad?
Diana: Sometimes I was that bad. It was a million years ago. I'm a grandmother now and it's amazing to me that some folks are still talking about something I may or may not have done when I was a teenager or in my 20s. We all have a past. Mine isn't squeaky clean. Did I hog the spotlight at times? Yes I did. I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality. I did what I felt I needed to do at the time to shine. Some of my actions hurt Florence and Mary, and for that I'm sorry. Some of my actions rocked the boat more than necessary and caused more trouble than there would have otherwise have been. Of course I know that now because I'm grown, I'm wiser, and hindsight is 20/20. Flo and I made amends before her passing and I took care to keep up with her girls when they were growing up. Mary and I have had difficulties which I will not rehash, but I wish her the best. But all those other people that's constantly talking about what I did when I was 17 or 23 can choke on a thousand dicks. I'm in my 70s. Get over it.
Yes, that's what I would like to see my Ross finally admit.:cool:
I would never say Flo was fat but she did gain weight while there. Mary had commented that these gowns were so snuggly that a pound gained spelled disaster. Flo did go from an 8 in 1965 to a 12 two years later. And of course it didn't help that Diana was so thin so she looked huge in comparison. To answer your question Ran about no photo evidence, actually there was if you caught it. When Flo was brought back in for the last few months before she was fired, you noticed that the bulk of what they wore was the looser chiffon dresses as opposed to the tighter fitting ones.
A lot of them probably choked on one.
OMG!Diana Ross was not one third, she was the lead singer and front person from Day One, all through the 'no hits Supremes' period right into the 12 Number Ones period; if being the front person makes her a stage hog, then I guess the same applies to Martha Reeves, Smokey Robinson, Gladys Knight,Levi Stubbs, etc.. get over this sisterhood fantasy land, folks, welcome to show biz..
the group was built on brilliant H/D/H compositions tailored to the sound and delivery of Diana Ross; that's how 12 Number Ones came along..
Oh yeah, she gained some weight over time [[as did Mary) but she was never fat. Remember Gordy's taunts and Mary's claims occur as early as 1966. Look at Flo on Sullivan when they do "You Can't Hurry Love" and the Symphony medley, or when they debut "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone" on whatever show they were on in 1967. That is not a fat woman and no one watching them was thinking "The Supremes look great, but that big one on the end...". Lol Flo's so called weight issue wasn't real. It was used as a weapon in war.
Don't bother BG. You see how of all the things I wrote in my fake Diana interview the one thing they zeroed in on was my reference to Diana Ross being one third of the Supremes. That's how much hate exists for Flo and Mary. If you aren't saying anything that maligns them in someway, it's a problem for some. And apparently some folks don't know what "one-third" is.
Noun. 1. one-third - one of three equal parts of a divisible whole
Before DRATS no one even knew Diana Ross' name who didn't also know Florence Ballard and Mary Wilson. That was the whole point of changing the name to Diana Ross and the Supremes. Gordy wanted to elevate her above Flo [[and then Cindy) and Mary in the public's mind, because until then, while Diana was the lead singer and the indisputable voice that captured the public's ears, it was the look, story and personalities of all three that captured the public's heart. If Diana were more than one-third she could've went solo in 1966. If Diana were more than one-third even after the name change, and the whole thing had been all about her, when she left the group, the Supremes never would have had continued success while Diana's first show couldn't sale out with a 20 dollar giveaway gimmick.
But that's the part they chose to focus on. Not Diana telling the haters to go to hell, but the part where I say she was one-third of the group, which is a fact, not an opinion. It's math. I guess these folks are so smart they're rewriting mathematics. What is this, that new NEW math?:rolleyes:
"I was one third of the greatest female group ever and neither of my singing partners were slouches in beauty, voice or personality."
That, ladies and gentlemen, is the Supremes, told in fake voice by one-third of the Supremes, Diana Ross. And I think from here on out that's how I will refer to her: Diana Ross, one-third of the Supremes. Ya know, cuz I'm feeling petty.:cool: