That Motown "Pecking Order"

That term has been used, and quite accurately I would agree, in another thread to explain why Kim Weston did not achieve greater success at Motown. I have often said that Motown was blessed [[or cursed if you want to look at it that way) by having sooooooooooo darn many artists that there simply wasn't enough time for all of them in the studio, much less on tours and such.

So yes, Kim and Brenda suffered for that reason, and of course there were many other female soloists that would have been below them in this pecking order. But what about other artists?

Do we dare to dream that if there had only been one or two top tier female groups instead of the three that we adored, might that have opened the door for our beloved Velvelettes to get more attention and perhaps become the stars they deserved to be?

And how about the solo guys and male groups? Did Edwin, Jimmy, and maybe some others get lost in the shuffle due to Stevie and Marvin hitting it so big? And did the Spinners, Originals, etc. lose opportunities for greater success because the Temps, Tops and Miracles were so big?

We will never know of course but it is enough to make you wish there had been three or four Motown empires instead of just one!!!!

Motown: so fantastic.....the world can't be thankful enough.

Wisely they spread their extensive roster of talent under various labels so DJs wouldn't feel as though they were playing one Motown song after another. Even at that they were on overload.

Most of the acts were diamonds in the rough .....what a challenge for Berry to navigate.
It started there: but it wasn't only about singing.

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Originally Posted by daviddesper

That term has been used, and quite accurately I would agree, in another thread to explain why Kim Weston did not achieve greater success at Motown. I have often said that Motown was blessed [[or cursed if you want to look at it that way) by having sooooooooooo darn many artists that there simply wasn't enough time for all of them in the studio, much less on tours and such.

So yes, Kim and Brenda suffered for that reason, and of course there were many other female soloists that would have been below them in this pecking order. But what about other artists?

Do we dare to dream that if there had only been one or two top tier female groups instead of the three that we adored, might that have opened the door for our beloved Velvelettes to get more attention and perhaps become the stars they deserved to be?

And how about the solo guys and male groups? Did Edwin, Jimmy, and maybe some others get lost in the shuffle due to Stevie and Marvin hitting it so big? And did the Spinners, Originals, etc. lose opportunities for greater success because the Temps, Tops and Miracles were so big?

We will never know of course but it is enough to make you wish there had been three or four Motown empires instead of just one!!!!

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I've never believed that it was girl group vs female solo artists or male groups vs male solo artists but rather a sales and promotion issue. As successful as Motown became the company still had limited resources in terms of marketing and sales and could only promote so many artists or songs at a given time in the early/mid 60's. In the liner notes to I'll Always Love You in TCMS:64 Brenda speaks about how Motown "pulled" her single from promotion so that WDOLG could sell a million copies. Brenda's song unfortunately was released two and a half weeks after WDOLG. If that happened to her single then I would imagine that Motown did that to other singles and artists.

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Originally Posted by SatansBlues

I've never believed that it was girl group vs female solo artists or male groups vs male solo artists but rather a sales and promotion issue. As successful as Motown became the company still had limited resources in terms of marketing and sales and could only promote so many artists or songs at a given time in the early/mid 60's. In the liner notes to I'll Always Love You in TCMS:64 Brenda speaks about how Motown "pulled" her single from promotion so that WDOLG could sell a million copies. Brenda's song unfortunately was released two and a half weeks after WDOLG. If that happened to her single then I would imagine that Motown did that to other singles and artists.

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I agree with this so much not only from the angle of promoting records; however, from the aspect of what artist[[s) groups were seemingly being promoted more than others, even outside of the promotion of recordings. Or why seemingly some individual members of groups were seemingly being groomed or given more attention than others. I'll just repeat SatansBlues excellent assessment again, "As successful as Motown became the company still had limited resources in terms of marketing and sales and could only promote so many artists or songs at a given time in the early/mid 60's." This would also apply to artists' development and promotion.

One more thing about Motown; during the company's peak years they had 110 songs make the Top Ten between 1961 & 1971 [and there was a limit to how much radio could play Motown's records no matter how many labels they used]. Then we have to factor in the fact that they couldn't promote all of their artists due to the limited resources the label had. To quote daviddesper, "it's enough to make you wish there had been three or four Motown empires instead of just one".

I’m a big fan of Brenda and think she could have been bigger, but this story of pulling support is getting rancid. First of all, we are not talking about some great record with amazing potential. We are talking about a record that is so derivative of the previous hit - it’s embarrassing plus nowhere near as good. A killer record like Every little bit hurts limped to number 13, I doubt very much that any amount of promotion could’ve saved this dog. Ugly, as horrible as this scenario sounds, and may be true, you will notice that while Brenda stalls at number 60 at 4 weeks, Martha is number 42, in two weeks, and the four Tops are number 32 in three weeks. It makes for a good story, to add to the, “diana ross ruined my career Anthology” however, One can only presume Martha and the tops benefited from the same action, it’s just not as good of a headline. I would imagine that if Motown had begun to promote Brenda, they could see the writing on the wall as where did our love go was in the top 10 in three weeks, I believe. It might have been four. Record companies wisely do not beg radio stations to play dogs, for fear that the radio station might say, “remember we played that Brenda record, that contours record, that Eddie Holland record,? They were dogs and you told us those were going to be big hits and they stunk up the place. We’re not gonna play this one. We don’t want people changing the channel because we play bad records. “ Once a record is under performing, everyone begins to play hot potato with it.

of course it’s quite possible that Motown did pull the support for practice record, if there was any. Let’s hypothesize the results. Motown gets behind I’ll always love you and pushes and pushes and pushes it all the way till number 44 While where did our love go, without any support, stalls at 53. Holland Dozier Holland probably would not have written baby love and come see about me because they were written to follow up the mega success of where did our love go. Perhaps the Supremes would not have made it any bigger than the Velvelettes. Motown would’ve lost millions and millions in 1964+1965 to expand their infrastructure. They might not of had the funds to sign and develop Gladys Knight and the pips‘s were the Jackson 5. Meanwhile, Brenda still would have peaked at number 25 with the wonderful when I’m gone. Operator, would still have tanked.

I believe Motown was wise to put their efforts, they’re limited efforts, behind breakout stars and those they had a strong, positive feeling about potential. It’s too bad that some people got left behind, but I don’t play Motown for that. Any recording artist with any amount of sense at all, leaves a record company that is not making it happen for them. Kim, Martha, Brenda, Mary, Gladys, the tops, the spinners, the Temptations, the Jackson 5, the Isley brothers are just some of the acts that left Motown with varying results. When the Supremes hit, they hit so big, so fast, so hard that Gordy knew he had struck gold. A month after where did our love go album came out, it was selling so strongly that he immediately put Liverpool into production. There weren’t that many hit albums at Motown at that point, but he knew Liverpool would pay off in a big way and it became one of Motown‘s biggest albums to date. Artistically, it wasn’t necessarily something to brag about, but she’s sold a lot of albums. He knew what he was doing getting behind the Supremes the tops and the Temptations . he stuck with Martha and Marvin because as we know he had great respect for their talent.


I don’t believe anyone deserves to be a success. Lots of wonderfully talented people don’t make it or can’t sell records. I love Jennifer Hudson‘s voice, but her success on vinyl and the concert stage is way under expectations. Part of being a success is having the talent or potential that is evident to others who can’t get behind and push. Judy, Barbra, Janis, Dionne and others all had someone behind them who believed so strongly in them that they would invest their time effort and perhaps money to help them succeed. You didn’t hear mary wilson complaining about pecking order when she was at the top of the pecking order, it was only when she was not at the top that she began to complain.

I think we are very lucky to have the Motown products that we do have. All they did was change history, and that’s worth sacrificing I’ll always love you by Brenda Holloway.

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

I’m a big fan of Brenda and think she could have been bigger, but this story of pulling support is getting rancid. First of all, we are not talking about some great record with amazing potential. We are talking about a record that is so derivative of the previous hit - it’s embarrassing plus nowhere near as good. A killer record like Every little bit hurts limped to number 13, I doubt very much that any amount of promotion could’ve saved this dog. Ugly, as horrible as this scenario sounds, and may be true, you will notice that while Brenda stalls at number 60 at 4 weeks, Martha is number 42, in two weeks, and the four Tops are number 32 in three weeks. It makes for a good story, to add to the, “diana ross ruined my career Anthology” however, One can only presume Martha and the tops benefited from the same action, it’s just not as good of a headline. I would imagine that if Motown had begun to promote Brenda, they could see the writing on the wall as where did our love go was in the top 10 in three weeks, I believe. It might have been four. Record companies wisely do not beg radio stations to play dogs, for fear that the radio station might say, “remember we played that Brenda record, that contours record, that Eddie Holland record,? They were dogs and you told us those were going to be big hits and they stunk up the place. We’re not gonna play this one. We don’t want people changing the channel because we play bad records. “ Once a record is under performing, everyone begins to play hot potato with it.

of course it’s quite possible that Motown did pull the support for practice record, if there was any. Let’s hypothesize the results. Motown gets behind I’ll always love you and pushes and pushes and pushes it all the way till number 44 While where did our love go, without any support, stalls at 53. Holland Dozier Holland probably would not have written baby love and come see about me because they were written to follow up the mega success of where did our love go. Perhaps the Supremes would not have made it any bigger than the Velvelettes. Motown would’ve lost millions and millions in 1964+1965 to expand their infrastructure. They might not of had the funds to sign and develop Gladys Knight and the pips‘s were the Jackson 5. Meanwhile, Brenda still would have peaked at number 25 with the wonderful when I’m gone. Operator, would still have tanked.

I believe Motown was wise to put their efforts, they’re limited efforts, behind breakout stars and those they had a strong, positive feeling about potential. It’s too bad that some people got left behind, but I don’t play Motown for that. Any recording artist with any amount of sense at all, leaves a record company that is not making it happen for them. Kim, Martha, Brenda, Mary, Gladys, the tops, the spinners, the Temptations, the Jackson 5, the Isley brothers are just some of the acts that left Motown with varying results. When the Supremes hit, they hit so big, so fast, so hard that Gordy knew he had struck gold. A month after where did our love go album came out, it was selling so strongly that he immediately put Liverpool into production. There weren’t that many hit albums at Motown at that point, but he knew Liverpool would pay off in a big way and it became one of Motown‘s biggest albums to date. Artistically, it wasn’t necessarily something to brag about, but she’s sold a lot of albums. He knew what he was doing getting behind the Supremes the tops and the Temptations . he stuck with Martha and Marvin because as we know he had great respect for their talent.


I don’t believe anyone deserves to be a success. Lots of wonderfully talented people don’t make it or can’t sell records. I love Jennifer Hudson‘s voice, but her success on vinyl and the concert stage is way under expectations. Part of being a success is having the talent or potential that is evident to others who can’t get behind and push. Judy, Barbra, Janis, Dionne and others all had someone behind them who believed so strongly in them that they would invest their time effort and perhaps money to help them succeed. You didn’t hear mary wilson complaining about pecking order when she was at the top of the pecking order, it was only when she was not at the top that she began to complain.

I think we are very lucky to have the Motown products that we do have. All they did was change history, and that’s worth sacrificing I’ll always love you by Brenda Holloway.

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Wow. Others may fight you on this, come up with tons of "well Motown should have done thid and thats" but I'm gonna say you just provided some MAJOR perspective. And you did it, not based on fan-emotion, but straightforward logic. Reading this was well worth opening my eyes this dreary morning.

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

Wow. Others may fight you on this, come up with tons of "well Motown should have done thid and thats" but I'm gonna say you just provided some MAJOR perspective. And you did it, not based on fan-emotion, but straightforward logic. Reading this was well worth opening my eyes this dreary morning.

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One of my best qualities, perhaps even my only good quality, is my ability to be objective. I’ve never understood reading situations with an agenda. But then again, I don’t believe the election was rigged.

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

One of my best qualities, perhaps even my only good quality, is my ability to be objective. I’ve never understood reading situations with an agenda. But then again, I don’t believe the election was rigged.

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It's your objectivity I appreciate. As I've grown older and taken note of other record companies operations and the many tales of powerful men who tried to buy a hit record for one inamorata or another, I've grown to appreciate that it can't be done [[read about a lady named Dora Hall and her husband, Leo Hulseman. He had probably more money than Berry and even he couldn't manufacture public demand for his wife's records.)

Phil Spector likewise couldn't buy enough heat from an indifferent public to sustain Veronica Spector's career beyond "Be My Baby."

I do think Motown blew some potential hits but then I'll read something from someone who actually was there at Motown about how tricky it can be to launch new artists or to find the key to building sustainable careers and successful follow up singles and I'll think- wow, I never considered this or that.

I recently got a cd of Jackie Ross's entire output for Chess records. The booklet and the music itself gave even more perspective to just how many obstacles Motown had to maneuver to manage its huge roster. In fact, there are even roses given to Motown in connection with how they were the ONLY American record company that was able to withstand and even unfathomably thrive in the face of The British Invasion. Interesting too is the connection made between Motown's loss of Mary Wells and Jackie Ross benefiting from that as well as the ascendancy of the Supremes playing a role in Motown's success in the face of Beatlemania.

I'm rambling on an on but really it all shows that there were many outside influences that played a role in how Motown had to manage its resources to effectively capitalize on the artists who made the biggest impressions on the public. And unless Motown had plans on sending dividend checks to fans as a reward for getting behind whatever artists Motown wanted you to like, I'll never buy into the rusted saw that Berry bought this one or that one a #1 hit.

Go ahead and ramble. If it was true that hits could be bought or promoted to the top, Reach Out and Touch would have been the #1 record of the year instead of #20. ‘Nuff said.

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

Go ahead and ramble. If it was true that hits could be bought or promoted to the top, Reach Out and Touch would have been the #1 record of the year instead of #20. ‘Nuff said.

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Exactly. And Chris Clark would have had a much more robust career. Not throwing shade but if we're going off the argument that a personal involvement with a studio head equals chart success, what happened here?

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

I’m a big fan of Brenda and think she could have been bigger, but this story of pulling support is getting rancid. First of all, we are not talking about some great record with amazing potential. We are talking about a record that is so derivative of the previous hit - it’s embarrassing plus nowhere near as good. A killer record like Every little bit hurts limped to number 13, I doubt very much that any amount of promotion could’ve saved this dog. Ugly, as horrible as this scenario sounds, and may be true, you will notice that while Brenda stalls at number 60 at 4 weeks, Martha is number 42, in two weeks, and the four Tops are number 32 in three weeks. It makes for a good story, to add to the, “diana ross ruined my career Anthology” however, One can only presume Martha and the tops benefited from the same action, it’s just not as good of a headline. I would imagine that if Motown had begun to promote Brenda, they could see the writing on the wall as where did our love go was in the top 10 in three weeks, I believe. It might have been four. Record companies wisely do not beg radio stations to play dogs, for fear that the radio station might say, “remember we played that Brenda record, that contours record, that Eddie Holland record,? They were dogs and you told us those were going to be big hits and they stunk up the place. We’re not gonna play this one. We don’t want people changing the channel because we play bad records. “ Once a record is under performing, everyone begins to play hot potato with it.

of course it’s quite possible that Motown did pull the support for practice record, if there was any. Let’s hypothesize the results. Motown gets behind I’ll always love you and pushes and pushes and pushes it all the way till number 44 While where did our love go, without any support, stalls at 53. Holland Dozier Holland probably would not have written baby love and come see about me because they were written to follow up the mega success of where did our love go. Perhaps the Supremes would not have made it any bigger than the Velvelettes. Motown would’ve lost millions and millions in 1964+1965 to expand their infrastructure. They might not of had the funds to sign and develop Gladys Knight and the pips‘s were the Jackson 5. Meanwhile, Brenda still would have peaked at number 25 with the wonderful when I’m gone. Operator, would still have tanked.

I believe Motown was wise to put their efforts, they’re limited efforts, behind breakout stars and those they had a strong, positive feeling about potential. It’s too bad that some people got left behind, but I don’t play Motown for that. Any recording artist with any amount of sense at all, leaves a record company that is not making it happen for them. Kim, Martha, Brenda, Mary, Gladys, the tops, the spinners, the Temptations, the Jackson 5, the Isley brothers are just some of the acts that left Motown with varying results. When the Supremes hit, they hit so big, so fast, so hard that Gordy knew he had struck gold. A month after where did our love go album came out, it was selling so strongly that he immediately put Liverpool into production. There weren’t that many hit albums at Motown at that point, but he knew Liverpool would pay off in a big way and it became one of Motown‘s biggest albums to date. Artistically, it wasn’t necessarily something to brag about, but she’s sold a lot of albums. He knew what he was doing getting behind the Supremes the tops and the Temptations . he stuck with Martha and Marvin because as we know he had great respect for their talent.


I don’t believe anyone deserves to be a success. Lots of wonderfully talented people don’t make it or can’t sell records. I love Jennifer Hudson‘s voice, but her success on vinyl and the concert stage is way under expectations. Part of being a success is having the talent or potential that is evident to others who can’t get behind and push. Judy, Barbra, Janis, Dionne and others all had someone behind them who believed so strongly in them that they would invest their time effort and perhaps money to help them succeed. You didn’t hear mary wilson complaining about pecking order when she was at the top of the pecking order, it was only when she was not at the top that she began to complain.

I think we are very lucky to have the Motown products that we do have. All they did was change history, and that’s worth sacrificing I’ll always love you by Brenda Holloway.

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I have no reason to question Brenda Holloway's veracity or recollection. She was there when and where it happened. And Brenda Holloway isn't the only artist to say that Motown promoted some artists over others. Syreeta made a similar comment in the late '80s, in addition to Martha Reeves. And while I respect your opinion, I think the artists that were there are the true authorities. I'll Always Love You was just Brenda's second 45 with Motown and she did not have the same history as Martha & The Vandellas, so that's like comparing apples to bananas. Look how long it took the Marvelette's Please Mr. Postman to reach #1, it was released in late August of '61 but did not reach number #1 until December. And Brenda's song was anything but a dog. *eyeroll*. That characterization is over the top. Motown liked it enough to release it as a 45. But we will never know what it could have done if promotion had not been pulled and Motown had not stopped filling orders for the song.

I think living in California during this period hurt Brenda most of all. I think she got lost in the shuffle behind the Supremes and the Miracles and the Temptations and the Four Tops and Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder and Jr. Walker & The Allstars and Martha & The Vandellas and the Marvelettes. Like I stated earlier Motown could only push so many artists and songs at one given time.

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

Exactly. And Chris Clark would have had a much more robust career. Not throwing shade but if we're going off the argument that a personal involvement with a studio head equals chart success, what happened here?

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Thank you so much for your statement regarding the 'involvement with the studio head' as being the haters' reason that so & so artist attained success. I would like to use this Chris Clark example in my rebuttal to the 'hater' crowd in other forums.

People to love blame failure on record companies but the truth is that it's complicated. "Promotion" consisted of aligning live appearances, being displayed in record stores and radio play in a given local market. In Motown's case, Oakland California was the gold standard because airplay combined with sales in Oakland bought one serious consideration by the stations in New York City. That local success was then used to sell the artist to the show promoters and radio stations in other markets where hopefully the competition would allow it. Timing was everything.

Success was all about getting that kind of a chain-reaction going. Payola only bought you a couple days' spins and if there were no sales in local stores, the record got dropped and was not likely to get played again unless it became a huge national hit first. Esther Edwards and numerous promotion people have told me that Motown simply couldn't afford payola and didn't bother playing that game.

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Originally Posted by jobucats

Thank you so much for your statement regarding the 'involvement with the studio head' as being the haters' reason that so & so artist attained success. I would like to use this Chris Clark example in my rebuttal to the 'hater' crowd in other forums.

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You know, I've heard that whole thing for decades about the reason "so-and-so" became a super star. I never fully bought it even as a teenager because it made no sense. Growing older and seeing all the other men who tried to buy a career for a girlfriend or wife without success that was all I needed. And it's not hating on Chris but it really does go to show you can't promote someone into stardom if the public isn't interested. And Chris had some damn good records. I hope you can indeed use that example- but I already know the haters will surgically plug their ears and glue their eyes shut to anything that sounds like logic.

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Originally Posted by bob_olhsson

People to love blame failure on record companies but the truth is that it's complicated. "Promotion" consisted of aligning live appearances, being displayed in record stores and radio play in a given local market. In Motown's case, Oakland California was the gold standard because airplay combined with sales in Oakland bought one serious consideration by the stations in New York City. That local success was then used to sell the artist to the show promoters and radio stations in other markets where hopefully the competition would allow it. Timing was everything.

Success was all about getting that kind of a chain-reaction going. Payola only bought you a couple days' spins and if there were no sales in local stores, the record got dropped and was not likely to get played again unless it became a huge national hit first. Esther Edwards and numerous promotion people have told me that Motown simply couldn't afford payola and didn't bother playing that game.

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Comments from those who were there, like you, Bob, have been a huge eye- opener for me in terms of growing up about how the record industry worked and why Motown succeeded unbelievably well compared to other companies. I love when we get a dose of reality from someone like you. The casual fan believes it's just a matter of putting out what is felt to be a "good" record, getting it promoted and BAM! You get a hit. But just what "promotion" involves, I think, is always a sort of hazy, vague idea that you throw money at someone or something. And even if the record isn't so hot, heck, throw enough money at whatever it is you throw it at and magically, the public will eat up even the worst record.

Not to mention that with this Magic Promotion Wand, even a bland, dull, unattractive artist with no work ethic can be catapulted into stratospheric and sustainable success. You might even "promote" someone into having over 4 decades-plus of success.

When I was a babe, I spoke as a babe, I thought as a babe. And then I woke up.

I didn't have any idea of how it worked until I did work for other labels. Doing that taught me what questions to ask. It's also important to understand that Motown began in 1959 when indi, non-corporate distributors, venues, radio stations and record stores were all at their peak. By the mid-'70s, that opportunity was pretty much over.

Ironically, I think it's back and a next-generation Berry Gordy could do it all over again.

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Originally Posted by bob_olhsson

People to love blame failure on record companies but the truth is that it's complicated. "Promotion" consisted of aligning live appearances, being displayed in record stores and radio play in a given local market. In Motown's case, Oakland California was the gold standard because airplay combined with sales in Oakland bought one serious consideration by the stations in New York City. That local success was then used to sell the artist to the show promoters and radio stations in other markets where hopefully the competition would allow it. Timing was everything.

Success was all about getting that kind of a chain-reaction going. Payola only bought you a couple days' spins and if there were no sales in local stores, the record got dropped and was not likely to get played again unless it became a huge national hit first. Esther Edwards and numerous promotion people have told me that Motown simply couldn't afford payola and didn't bother playing that game.

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Excellent post

The logic that says promotion would have made stars out of Brenda Holloway, Chris Clark, Mary Wilson etc would have also kep the Temptations and Diana Ross on top always and forever; it should also have made Rockwell a star.