I agree with you Roberta. It was like one of those things that make you say HUH ?
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I think it makes perfect sense, regarding Jean and gay people. I sincerely doubt Jean even knew that the Supremes had a gay following back when she joined. People just didn't talk about gay people back then, and if anyone did mention gay people, it was like a dirty joke that you didn't tell in mixed company. Don't forget that back in 1969, you could get fired from being a teacher, police officer, FBI etc so if you were gay and smart, you hid. At that time people justified their contempt for gays on religious grounds and Jean was very religious.I would imagine Jean was completely blind sided.The first pop/R&B group I ever even heard mention having a gay following was Patti Labelle and the Bluebelles. They were very accepting after years of playing to a large gay following. Later in the 70's Diana Ross came out and said something to the effect of "Yes I have a large gay following and it is my pleasure." I remember choking up when I read that because in those days, that was the first time I heard anybody saying anything positive about gay people.
Now today, most of the fan sites and fan groups of older female entertainers are run by gay men. Many of the people buying tickets to their shows are gay guys. Gay people are very loyal on the whole. We stick by these stars when the general populace have lost interest. I doubt Jean knew any of this when she joined the Supremes but I'll bet she gets it now.
That is a good observation. Things were very different back then. It seems odd from today’s perspective but that’s how they were. We can wish and hope things could have been different but they weren’t. It’s not to say that such behavior was ok, but in historical context it was the circumstances in which people found themselves. Were she still to hold those views today, that would be another story.
People ? Jean Terrell had it with Show Business,she wanted out,no matter what,it's fans that wanna believe she was not happy with the way Motown was treating the group,that's why she left, Jean would have left The Supremes if they would have had 5 number 1 singles in a row,she just didn't like Show Business,so she was unhappy,i don't believe Jean was really sick,she'd have a attitude with Mary,just because she didn't want to be there,and with her becoming a Jehovah Witness made it worst, so she left,i don't know how she got her deal at A&M, Jean recorded I Had To Fall In Love,from what i'm told, she never finish the album,and she wouldn't go out and promote the album,so A&M let her go,no one in Show Business is gonna put up with Jean Terrell.I disagree,i think that Jean had the looks the voice,and a great stage presence,what she didn't have was the love for Show Business,if she did,she would have never stop singing.
Except most of what you say here is factually incorrect. After Jean left the Supremes she did some recording, the details of which escape me, but she recorded "Do You Believe In Love At First Sight" among some other songs. After that she signed with A&M and not only recorded "I Had To Fall In Love", but completed the album of the same name, which was released. And then after that, in the early to mid 80s, she did at least two shows that I suspect can really only be described as showcases, used to elicit interests by record labels. And yet still, when the FLOS were formed, Jean was a founding member. She never "stopped" singing. For somebody whom you claim wanted no part in showbusiness, she sure as hell kept knocking on the door.
In any career there are ups and downs. Sometimes a person goes to work in his/her chosen field, joins a particular company and finds that it's a nightmare working there. I think most of us have had similar experiences. You leave one place and find a home somewhere else. I'm not sure what Jean's real story is in regards to the business. I keep seeing all of these posts about how she felt but rarely does anyone source them. Has Jean gone on the record about her feelings, or is it all conjecture?
I do think it's possible that even with five number ones Jean may have been unhappy if [[a) the money wasn't right, [[b) creatively and artistically she wasn't being heard, [[c) Mary was power trippin'. She wouldn't be the first artist to be annoyed with her record label and the business decisions thereof. Gladys Knight basically gave Motown the finger, and then she left to what is arguably even greater success.
Sometimes it seems like whenever an artist was fed up with Motown some fans jump to the conclusion that said artist was done with the business. Face it, some folks got sick of Motown's bullshit and simply wanted out. If they received better treatment elsewhere, that's where they would rather be. But Jean does strike me as someone who may have been hard to please, so she may have had trouble just about anywhere, especially if someone in control lacked the ability to handle her with care. Today artists go the independent route for these very reasons. Had that been a big thing back then, Jean may have had greater solo success.
the entire point of getting a Jean Terrell was NOT to get another Diana Ross...the group didn't need that, and Berry did not need a competitor in his own stable.
the group did not need or want a star within the group setting again...increasing the vocal contributions and visibility of Mary and Cindy was a very noticeable and welcome change.
The scenario of the group having a more successful beginning than Ross chart wise, and the possibility of that continuing must have kept Berry up nights...lets remember in the 70's Diana's singles generally petered out short of the top 10...4 times at #1...but not a top ten hit if it didn't go all the way
I've said before, reading much of what is written about Jean personality wise, she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more. Seems Jean was unlikely to change her mind once she made a choice regardless of others influence. She worked very hard...especially considering she was coming from a much less visible and demanding entertainment career. She successfully moved the group passed the DRATS era...Assuming that she was a salaried [[and sales royalty receiving) employee, it's understandable that after a years public acceptance she should have had a better deal and % of partnership rites....This, as we all know was not Mary's doing.
When the huge sales on singles started slipping, her bottom line must have taken a big hit...and it was the same workload travel wise, and time away from home....Jean supposedly by nature had a stronger "happy homebody" streak that is hard to satisfy being away most of the time. Maybe when she signed on, she was aware the schedule would be packed for a set period, and then once radio got used to the new sound [[they seemed to be thru River Deep) and the public got used to the new group, the touring would ease up a bit...The groups road money was still off setting recording budgets and feeding the company.
The problem escalated very quickly once Cindy was gone...with Lynda the group of 3 only had 1/3rd die hard dedication to the name, the legacy and the company. The group already experienced one uncooperative and unhappy member with Flo. If Jean and quickly Lynda were that unhappy, best scenario did happen bringing much loved Cindy back and getting Scherrie...MSC was a great group with high potential and appeal...it blew up beating a dead tired, too brassy, too fast paced Vegas act and replacing Cindy a 2nd time. Having her there was important...she added stability and familiarity.
I think you perfectly characterized the situation with Jean when you said "she was willing to do what she was willing to do, and nothing more....." I remember there was a time where Jean wouldn't even do the choreography on stage to the songs, other times she just stood and sang a song however she felt on a certain day.
I keep hoping Jean will resurface...even though I am a huge Scherrie fan, when Jean left the FLO's it was over for me. I think the most recent performance I've seen is her guest spot on Preston Glass' WELCOME HOME...I have also never heard a satisfyingly candid interview with Jean.
I know people are going to hate me for this--but I never liked Jean's voice that much. She sounds good on some songs, but on others she screeches. When she's in a lower register she is fine. I know Berry got it in his head that leads singers had to sing soprano, but I don't think that is true at all. Gladys Knight, Anita Baker, Darlene Love, etc are all altos and even Diana Ross finally clicked when she was recorded in her lower register on Where Did Our Love Go.
Same here! I saw Jean lead the FLOs in concert in Detroit. Jean had not lost a thing vocally at that time. I was with Esther Gordy Edwards. Every now and then I look over at Mrs. Edwards while Jean was singing and she would be beaming like a proud mother!
Jean has never done a good, in depth interview. It is long overdue.
I prefer Scherrie. She never sounded screechy.
I think Jean, Gladys and Thelma were arguably the best female vocalists at Motown followed by Brenda.
Luke when you say that are you saying you think they were the most innately talented, the most technically skilled, or are you saying you just like their voices the best?This is a sincere question. I love Gladys' voice the best of the women you listed, I just like her sound, but I'd probably say Jean Terrell was more technically skilled.
There was only one Diana Ross. Motown couldn't duplicate that one if they put out an open call around the world. However, the Supremes, to the world, had a certain something that Ross brought to the group that made the group not only audibly pleasing but visually as well. Individually, Florence and Mary brought their own brand of uniqueness to the group which complimented Diana's energy, which is why while Flo was a part of the group, the group had a group essence, even when the focus was sometimes shifted to Diana. By the time DRATS really got going it was primarily a Diana Ross showcase and, IMO, any two women could've supported her from Mary and Cindy's positions, and it's quite possible no one would've minded a whole lot. [[That last statement is a bit extreme but I'm not in the mood to simplify it.) The Supremes as a name had made their mark. To replace Diana Ross with someone who was more than less her opposite was sort of dumb. Now that little bit extra that made the Supremes pop is gone.
Raising Mary and Cindy's visibility was a good move, but there was nothing overly exciting or entertaining about it, from my perspective. You give them Jean and the group lacks a lot of the overall entertainment factor that was present when Diana was still a member, although it's worth pointing out that vocally Jean ushered them into the 70s and the sound was often on point. I do think any replacement for Ross was going to need to be group focused. Gordy wasn't going to get behind any grooming for potential Diana Ross rivals.
What I do love about Motown [[well there are many things I love) is that they signed such varied female vocalists. I never argue "best" as it's subjective and no one ever seems to really be able to define what makes one singer better than another, at least not to my personal satisfaction.:p To me voices fall into two categories: good or bad. No in betweens for me. Diana, Jean, Florence, Martha, Gladys K, Gladys H, Kim, Brenda, Thelma, Hattie, LaBrenda, Wanda, Ann, Yvonne...all so different, yet oh so good at the same time. And that's barely scraping the barrel. I could mention tons more but aint got that kind of time.
great points Ran
it's almost like Diana Ross is a drug lolol [[and i mean that in a good way lol). during the DMF era, you did have 3 engaging personalities and within the structure of the group and performances, each still had some opportunity to shine. Obviously Diana shown the brightest and emerged as the star. And her presence and contribution to this thing called The Supremes was so large, dazzling, etc that it was essentially a 'drug.' as the years continued and the group became DRATS, it's like we were being fed even more and more of this drug. until we were addicts and any alternate approach or concept of "The Supremes" would be like going through withdrawal.
all of the women in the group were talented. some were extremely talented vocalists and decently talented entertainers. some were wonderful entertainers and decent vocalists. some were both.
But no other member of The Supremes, no other singer at motown [[male or female) and frankly very, very few other singers in general, have this absolutely magnetic and hypnotic singer/entertainer presence as Diana Ross. it's why she's one of the most successful performers in recorded history.
and anyone that was going to replace had a Mount Everest to climb
Good addition Marv. I agree!
If pulling someone already associated with the label was thought of, I am surprised Carolyn Crawford wasn't considered in '69....or even Blinky. I only became aware of CC in the early 90's through a 5 CD Motorcity Ian Levine comp, and Blinky fairly recently. Sound wise, they would have been a better fit than Tammi or Syreeta.
Carolyn Crawford would have definitely made a good replacement. Good call! Ultimately though, Jean Terrell was the ultimate and perfect candidate in my opinion. Thinking about it, She must have scared the shit out of a certain other singer. Why? Well because Berry Gordy just happen to go out for drinks one night at the Fountainbleu [[sp?) in Miami and without even trying real hard found a superb replacement for Diana Ross in the Supremes [[the biggest female act in the world at that time!). Some concluded that Jean Terrell was even a much better singer. This could not have done Miss Ross' self esteem much good..........LOL!
all interesting candidates
Mary mentions that she was a little surprised that Berry selected Jean so quickly. It's of no surprise that it appears neither M or C were heavily involved in the search. sure they got to meet Jean and see how it worked. and i guess if they were wildly opposed to jean at the start and said so, berry and motown would have kept looking
but mary makes no real mention of the search process or being at all involved in it. so maybe there were internal, corporate discussions about each of these women. sure would be interesting to have some of those memos and meeting notes revealed!!
Flo and Mary were lucky in a sense. Prior to them becoming a global phenomenon, they had approximately five years with Diana, cultivating their image, their sound, their chemistry together. Mary's first book puts Diana's official designation [[ie Gordy's verbal mandate) of lead singer as approximately late 63-early 64. But there's no question that Diana was the unofficial lead singer of the group from 1961-1964, yet there's also no question that they were as much a group as any other group of the day.
So when the girls became the legendary Supremes, there was room for each girl's identity. Sure, one girl got most of the leads and by extension a good amount of attention. It also didn't hurt that she was a little bit "extra" in nearly every way. But they were separate identities that equaled this incredible entertainment entity and as such, Flo and Mary enjoyed their own individual fame.
DRATS was something else entirely. That really was a solo artist with prominent background performers. It's interesting to note just how many TV performances DRATS did where Mary and Cindy are right up under Ross most of the time, like the Fats Waller medley. At first glance one wants to say "Hey, they're still a group here", but if you really pay attention this is all Diana Ross with vocal and dance accompaniment, not the Supremes, a singing group. [[It is, for the record, probably my favorite DRATS performance. Perfect in every way.) My point being, there was no room for Mary and Cindy's individualism the way there was when Flo was in the group. This was a test run. Diana Ross left the Supremes on the same night Florence did.
What set Diana Ross apart from the other Supremes and, even most of the other Motown acts is that she was a total entertainer. She moved on the stage, gracefully. Her smile really could light up a room. She had this ability to pull the audience into her every move, every word, every look. She was a fashionista. She was gorgeous. And she could flat out sing. Back her up with a full orchestra and she'll kill it. Throw her in front of a Funk Brother's groove and she'll knock it out of the park. Throw her a mic and no music and she'll still captivate. She possessed a magic that sometimes may have been difficult to even define. But you knew she had it. [[I think only Michael Jackson was the other Motown star to have that thing. I also think that if David Ruffin had gotten out of his own way, and then had the kind of attention that Diana got from the big guy, the same might be said of him also.)
Diana had the ingredients from day one, it just took someone to help her hone it. Would her full talent have been realized at Stax or Atlantic or Columbia? One might argue no. On the flipside it's always interesting to ponder what might have become of Florence or even Mary had they gone to another label where someone was more interested in their particular skills. But Diana Ross was definitely a diamond in the rough that, to Gordy's credit, he saw the value in and we all reaped the rewards.
Yup, Diana was shaking in her boots about a singer who was taking her place in a group that Diana probably secretly wished she could've ditched two years before. I find it hard to believe that Diana was thinking about much of anything that didn't concern her own career. While I think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she raised an eyebrow when her first single didn't do as well as the Jean led Supremes' first single did, I also think it's possible, maybe even probable, that she lowered that eyebrow when none of the Jean led Supremes' subsequent singles- and certainly none of their albums- came close to the enormity that was "Aint No Mountain High Enough" or her first solo album. Although Diana is probably still wondering where Jean's movie career went.:p
In all seriousness, I do think if there was any real concern about who would win the "rivalry", it was more on Gordy's mind than Ross'. And again, at some point any idiot could see who was going to win that race. And as we sit here 50 years later, we can safely answer who the winner ended up.
Yeah, I would love to know what exactly went into the search. It's so interesting to me that in this forum we always ponder these "important" Supremes related questions but in all the books that ever end up being published, most of this kind of inside the music or inside the business information never makes it onto the page.
I agree that it would be interesting. Scherrie Payne has mentioned that her name came up as a potential replacement for Diana but then someone else said that she was more interested in her schooling. But she doesn't mention who these people were or how they even considered her, albeit briefly.
Look, Diane has always been insecure [[or at least that is the excuse she used for most of her bad behavior towards others in those days.). Berry Gordy is a very smart man. He knew if he could prove that there were countless talented singers out there that just needed a break, he could use that fact as leverage to keep Diane in her place whenever she got too big-headed.[[She told a nationwide audience on the Tonight Show that she couldn't be replace.....HA!) She went further to "secure" her position by getting pregnant the next year and the rest is history!