As Diana once sung beautifully mb, “We’re Always Saying Goodbye”. :)
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There was some story about Mary and Cindy climbing through some bushes to make an entrance because nobody knew who they were - I think that was from her book Dreamgirl
I think that was at one of Diana's concerts? Mary climbed through the bushes with Tukessa to get on the red carpet so they could see her "Godmother". Diana refused to recieve them, and they left with a tear in Turkessa's eye.
It was caught on camera, and Mary had a twig in her glitter wig.
That was in CALL HER MISS ROSS. Supposedly they had already gone into the venue. But then decided to fake an entrance and went back to the front, trying to generate some interest from the red carpet paparazzi. One of their escorts yelled out "Look, it's two of the Supremes" and the paparazzi started taking photos.
This happened when Mary and Turkessa decided to attend Diana's WORKIN' OVERTIME concert in LA. Although Diana wouldn't leave her dressing room backstage, they decided to Spago, where Diana's after-party was being held. Mary said there were instances where other parts of the restuarant would be open when a private party was taking place. In this case, however, they were turned away again, conveniently in front of a crew from ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT.
No bushes this time. ;)
Combining the two does makes for one good story, lol.
3 years after Dreamgirl; it seemed like Diana had it with the required sensationalism and media interviews Mary had to do. Little did she know what was coming with RTL.
Does anyone think she was justified in declining to receive Mary?
Kind of like the Queen Mother refused to receive the Duke of Windsor - “after what he’d done”
When I first read the story, I thought Diana could have met with them, if only for Turkessa's sake. But Diana had already stated for publication that her heart had been broken and she found it hard to stay close. I gather things have gotten better as I recall a later interview where Mary said Diana and Turkessa do communicate. I hope it is true.
Me too .......
Is Turkessa REALLY Diana's Goddaughter? Or is it like one of those Whitney Houston things where everyone and their sister is Nippy's Gmama.
I mean, if Diana didn't attend Mary's wedding, there's little chance she attended T's christening.
What was always interesting to me was there were some major stars from Motown that wanted nothing to do with Motown 25 including Diana, Marvin and Michael to name a few. I could never figure out if it was because of Suzanne De Passe or Berry Gordy. To me that was the beginning of a disaster.
We can certainly speculate all we want. It is obvious that they are still somewhat cordial with each other despite what the media perpetuates. There are probably many private things that they need to communicate with each other and at ages 76 I do not see that happening. For Motown 25, Diana was dealing with not only reuniting with the Supremes but also being on RCA and celebrating Motown and Berry Gordy after she had left them. Mary was dealing with celebrating Motown after they had dropped her 3 years earlier and reuniting with Diana after some hot and cold friendship moments. For RTL, the rumors were out there for over a year and Diana waited and just called Mary so that the business would start rather than meeting together to discuss the tour and ideas. Besides the monetary offer being somewhat degrading so was the treatment, which Diana later said in an interview was all that Mary had to do was show up. So on one side we had someone acting too grand to even communicate properly and on the other side someone who was hurt yet did not communicate properly on what they really wanted and how they felt except through the media. I am just happy they are both looking so beautiful, can sing and entertain so well at 76. I'll leave it at that even though the dream of them reuniting is not a dream that will come true.
In a way, you summarize the real personal issue some at Motown had with Diana - here she was, Diane from the Projects, and she became so grand and successful - and many felt forgotten - by her, Motown, the media. And they all been together in those buildings and on the buses, with very basic beginnings
I always stay out of these RTL discussions. But Diana did try to extend the olive branch by calling Mary. Mary was the one with the funky attitude. Diana should have ended everything right then and there, after that call. I do agree that discussions should have happened first, then the business discussions should have followed. I also think too much emphasis is put on Diana’s comment about Mary just having to show up. She was talking about financial responsibilities.
I do wonder if Mary and Diana's beef would have been settled by now had Flo lived considering she saw Diana in a better light and reached out to her before she passed.
It’s my understanding that Diana Ross had the same type of personality in the days before the hits. I got this from someone who grew up with her. She always thought highly of herself and carried herself that way, and did it well enough for folks to still see her that way.
of course she was justified, Mary was only pushing the point to stir up trouble. She knew Diana didn’t want anything to do with her and stubbornly and childishly parked her self outside of the dressing room trying to force a confrontation like she did at Motown 25. Diana was not having it. Then Mary goes to the party uninvited and acts like She’s somehow been hurt. I lost every ounce of respect for her I had when she did that that night and was crying on national television pretending not to know why Diana was refusing to see her. That’s as phony as phony can be. It’s just so fake of her to pretend that she has no idea what Diana‘s problem is with her. She’s like Donald Trump insisting on election fraud. Mary will just say anything.
And let’s face it, if Mary really was hurt that their friendship was over in the 70s and 80s, she should seek psychological help. They were work friends for 10 years and then went their separate ways it’s quite normal to move on. Mary used her for attention whenever she could.
if Mary is being truthful and that she misses Diana‘s friendship so much, it reminds me of the movie Chuck and Buck who haven’t seen each other in 10 years and one is obsessed with the other and can’t give up the fact that their lives have moved on. I highly recommend it although it is absolutely the most uncomfortable nerve-racking embarrassing film to watch, but there’s a brilliant comic performance in it. Personally I don’t think Mary really does feel that way because I know for a fact that she had nothing good to say about Diana from the day Cindy joined the group, I think she just wants closeness now so that maybe they could do some sort of reunion and get some money out of it. Or at least she would get some Press.
Wilson had a chance to grandstand, and grandstand she did. Red dress and all. Do your research. Mike drop.
in Randy's book, he writes about Mary visiting Diana backstage and discussing writing her book. Diana asks what is the book about and Mary states "well no one wants to read about me. It's about us - The Supremes"
that sort of sums things up
By herself, Mary hasn't been able to really lock onto something that seems to really work other than being a "former Supreme." it seems to me that Mary defined happiness and success as being a top pop act and singer, living the glam life, jet setting about. Unfortunately her music career from the mid 70s on really did provide for that. Will certainly give her credit for trying and trying again.
I've said many times before that other genres or areas might have been more to her calling. and while they may not have been big time and big money pop successes, it would have been just a different kind of success.
But instead she's worked using the Sup legend and capitalizing on bits of sensationalism here and there along the way.
the Sups petered out in June 77 and then in fall 77 hit the news with her lawsuits
in 79 she had hoped to spark interest with her solo debut
81 she tried grabbing spotlight around the show Dreamgirls
83 was motown 25
86 was her book release
89 was the fiasco with Diana and the Working Overtime stunt
and on and on it goes
A lot to comment on in this thread. I'll try to condense it to a few things that standout.
Gotta agree with Sup on Mary and Cindy's rumored response to the rumored scenario regarding the medley rehearsal. These women were 40 and 40+ still allowing Diana to control things like they were all still 20 something. Couldn't have been me.
Disagree with the idea that Mary was somehow to blame for the embarrassing Motown 25 reunion. That was all on Diana. First of all, again, Mary was 40 years old. If she wanted to come on stage wearing red instead of whatever was agreed upon, so what? Let's not pretend like it would've been gasps if Diana had suddenly changed her wardrobe at the last minute. No one at that reunion, including Diana, should've felt any type of way about Mary wearing red. Diana was probably pissed that she didn't think of it.
If things played out the way they were rumored to, Diana turning around and shoving Mary for any reason other than Mary shoving her first was completely unacceptable. That this is also rumored to be a response to the fact that Mary and Cindy refused to let Diana stand ahead of them like it's 1969 again makes it even more disgusting. That was on Diana, not Mary. And while I think it unprofessional for Mary to call Gordy to the stage when she knew it was not her place to do so, it was 10 times worst for Diana to touch Mary's body in any way, pushing her mic down and yelling at her. That was far more unprofessional than what Mary did, when the correct response to such an out of order occurrence would've been to say something like "Yes, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Berry Gordy". The Supremes reunion was fucked up because of Diana Ross, not Mary Wilson.
Mary B brings up a good point about people growing apart. I made a similar point in the forum once before, that there was a genuine friendship between Diana and Mary as teenagers, and during their early 20s, like millions of other youngsters have had since time began. But where college or young adult experiences might have otherwise ended these friendships, with Diana and Mary, they were bonded together via the Supremes, working together, basically living together. Now one could also make the argument that at some point they became more than friends, that it was family. Sometimes you can't stand your family. The flaws become too much or whatever the case may be, but it's still family. There's that soft spot in your heart for this person and a need to remain connected. Apparently up until Mary's book, this wasn't a relationship where only Mary made overtures to Diana. There were times when Diana sought Mary out also. So obviously there was a need to stay connected on Diana's part. I think if Mary hadn't written her book, or at least had kept some of the Diana related stuff to herself, the two would've continued keeping in touch because they had a need to do so.
While I understand some of the idea behind the "co-workers" thing, the truth is that Diana and Mary and even Florence were not just co-workers no matter how many times some want to reduce the relationship to that. Specifically as it relates to Diana, none of us- I'm sure- would ever think to set up trust funds for a co worker's children, a co-worker we haven't worked with in almost ten years. How about paying for the surgery for a co worker's kid? Ever loaned a down payment to an ex co worker you haven't worked with in a decade? No? Didn't think so. Yes, the original Supremes worked together and were, by definition, co-workers. But that was not the extent of their relationship and attempting to frame it as "co-workers" is disingenuous. Berry Gordy was Diana's boss by definition, but........
As for Mary trying to see Diana after the book, I personally can't blame Diana for refusing Mary to be in my space. I've never viewed Dreamgirl as this complete hatchet job on Diana, but there were definitely some things in that book that wasn't Mary's place to tell. If I were Diana I would've reacted the same way. I would not have considered Mary a friend of mine at that point. I might wish her well, but there's nothing left for us after that. Now, where Diana and I differ, I couldn't refuse Turkessa. Even though I recognize Turkessa was a tool in Mary getting to see Diana, Turkessa was a child who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever was going on between Mary and Diana. I would've sent a message that Turkessa and only Turkessa was free to come back and see me if she wanted. If Mary wasn't okay with that, it would be her right as Turkessa's mother to refuse the offer and take her child home. But Mary would not have been allowed back under any circumstances at that point.
i think the blame with the actual reunion themselves falls on both. Throughout the evening, Mary had questionable professional behavior. For instance, there was the speech she had been selected to present. Now i've not read or heard what the original speech included and only know of her actual speech based on her book, about how she saluted Flo and others. While the theme and topic is admirable, to simply change the material 100% during the performance is not acceptable. If she felt so strongly that the words given to her were inappropriate, she simply should have said she couldn't do the segment and let someone else. from a production management perspective, this was grossly unprofessional of her.
during the reunion itself, there's the "shove." Mary has always depicted it as a massive physical assault. in Randy's most recent book, it was more of a "move back" action by Diana. Agree that either is not acceptable and Diana broke that cardinal rule. for M and C to "plot" backstage to do their own choreography is not acceptable either though. Why didn't they simply state during their brief rehearsal "no we aren't going to stand in the back. let's sing together in a row" Again to wait and do this in the middle of the performance is unacceptable. cameras and camera angles were planned based on the marks given to the performers.
Mary's usurping the lead vocals on Someday are also not acceptable.
Then Diana's grabbing Mary's arm when Mary said "berry come on down" is also unacceptable.
Both women handling the situation very poorly
Mary's speech had nothing to do with the Supremes, but I'll concede that in the overall evening, yes, changing her speech without letting TPTB know was very unprofessional.
Regarding camera angles, again, that would be something that folks behind the scenes would care about, not us watching at home or in the actual audience that night, and certainly was not something for Diana to even react to. She should have thought it a good idea to stand together, unless her ego was screaming "Diana in front! Diana always in front!":p
Mary didn't usurp the lead to "Someday", she saved it. Mary says Diana stopped singing. I suspect Diana forgot the words to a song she apparently hadn't sung since 1970 and had a minute's worth of a rehearsal an hour or so before. Mary did what she was supposed to do. If you watch the performance, there's a tell tale sign that this is most likely what happened. In the video below, for reference, Mary is singing the lead and then at about 5:36 Diana joins her in the "whoo" part and then at 5:38 Mary gestures to Diana as if to say "Okay, you got it" but as she's doing that, Diana announces Smokey Robinson and so Mary keeps going. To me that's not unprofessional, that's the show must go on no matter what. What were they supposed to do, just stand there until Diana remembered the words?
So for me, when it comes to the actual reunion of the Supremes, Diana is the reason it became a fiasco. Mary however did have some other unprofessional moments that night, as did Diana, like appearing during someone else's performance unexpectedly. I imagine those concerned with the camera angles during Adam Ant's performance would've really lost their minds. Lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDh41GFt6s
Overall, a disappointing evening for the Supremes and Ross fans; I can still remember being stunned that the "reunion" was over and while everyone else joining them was great, there wasn't really any reunion at all.
Mary Wilson had nothing much to lose and she was sick of playing 8th fiddle and probably more pissed when no one knew who she was and she had to make another entrance out of the bushes.
So she acted up.
I don't know what exactly Diana did. But she was the Queen of the House and she should have put "hands up" even higher like nothing ever happened.
the audio we've heard is not in sync with the video we've seen. because of the altercation and problems on stage, they made edits and so there's a second or two where Diana is actually behind M and C and re-introduces them. the audio has Mary singing "bye, bye, bye, bye" part of the bg vocals but the Mary we see on the video isn't actually singing that. then they've cut to Smokey coming on stage
If the lead singer stumbles over the lyrics, it isn't the role of the bg vocals to simply take over the lead. the smoothest action would be to allow the lead to continue, ad lib and find a way to work themselves back into the song. in mary's book she says that she began singing lead because she thought Diana forgot the words and would come back in. Mary then specifically states she kept singing.
without seeing the entire unedited performance, we're not able to determine exactly what happened. we have Mary's book and Randy's two. IMO Mary approached the evening in a combative manner. She repeatedly didn't follow instructions on where to be and what to sing/say. from a production standpoint, that's wildly unprofessional. Also Diana made it blatantly obvious that she had no desire to be there and for her to approach this massive segment of her career with such indifference is also unacceptable. Her reaction to the happenings on stage were also extremely unprofessional.
so i still say both women share the blame
The only thing I will say about this is why bring your disappointment or resentment or bitterness if any of those emotions fit to the stage. If what everyone is saying is true about Diana being the diva and she had not changed then you should know she wasn't going to change that night so everything you did in front of the camera was to piss off Diana or to get a reaction. Now, I have heard everything said from a shove to shoving Mary's mike down I stand on the fact that Diana should have never touched her but I have yet to see the footage [[THE WHOLE FOOTAGE).
I still say Diana wanted no part of Motown 25 or the reunion so she should have stayed away and especially since learning she was not feeling good. Also, in Biography Magazine years later Mary Wilson explains and talks about what went wrong with Motown 25 and it's more of a revealing story of what she did [[Mary). If you get an opportunity check it out. However, Diana moved on and Mary even after MOTOWN 25 kept saying a reunion is up to Diana. REALLY ?? Even I got it after that Mary.
Even though this topic had been much discussed over the years, i have enjoyed reading fans thoughts and opinions here in 2020. Above all, everyone has managed remain respectful to each other.
Regarding Diana, i think there is a side to her personality that Motown worked hard to keep hidden from the media. The incident at Wembley Arena in 82, Motown 25 then the dreaded letter and firing of a large chunk of her work force in 83 revealed another side to her persona.
I think it unfair to lay the failure of this reunion squarely on her shoulders, but she could so easily have taken the higher ground and handled the situation with a little more grace.
With age and experience comes wisdom, and i’m sure she is a totally different person today.