At least one member has. I think it might have been Tamla617 or Adrian.
Printable View
The only reason I have a user name is because of convention. I would have been quite happy to use my real name if everybody else did.
144man - You came up with a great moniker. Perfect, I'd say!
Thanks, Methuselah2, though I don't think I'd have chosen it if I'd realised it would put me first in the members' list.
I'm not sure whether your name came from your great age or from your preferred size of wine-bottles.
I would but Rumpelstiltskin wouldn't be believed
As a long-time former whom hasn't visited here in quite awhile, I'm saddened to see that despite my long absence, that Ralph is still having to deal with the same issues, which involve the same people & that makes no sense to me at all.
I remember the days when certain people were considered to be a "problem" here & if only they would leave, life would be so much better here.
Well, guess what...just about all of those "problem" people are gone & yet, here Ralph is again, having to deal with the same nonsense & sad to say, it always tends to involve the same individuals, whom as the current "leaders" of the forum, could do more to allieviate some of the problems, rather than choosing to fight the same battles that they've been fighting before Soulful Detroit came into existence.
As one who has had his own disagreements, I would watch these firestorms constantly erupt & as a basically disinterested observer, I can honestly say that there are FEW innocents, but several people here who seem to enjoy helping to escalate matters & have been equally guilty of doing their best to keep the fires burning.
I've can barely count the number of times that I've been here over the last 2 or 3 years & the last time that I was here, was to post pictures of Blue Lovett's Memorial, where a person decided to make remarks, which I ignored. I ignored them because I know myself & nowadays, I tend not to waste my energy arguing with someone over the internet, when face-to-face conversation tends to bring about a completely different response from folks who behave quite differently when behind a monitor.
But once I saw Ralph mention something about "dissent", I automatically knew who was going to be involved, as well as what sparked the dissent.
I get it...Marv doesn't like Diana Ross. I also get it that the guys who don't him tend not to like Mary Wilson. I also get it that none of you like one another all that much. But I also get the fact & let's face it, the fact that this has continued to occur since the Motown Forum was created here, there are two sides who are bound & determined to keep the fights going. This is true because it happens every time & I believe that most relish the battle because of the intense dislike that you all have for one another.
Does anyone really believe that Marv is the ONLY problem in all of this? Now I don't really know Marv, except for The Ponderosa Stomp, we've never seen nor spoken with one another outside of SDF. Hell, we're not even Facebook Friends.
I've seen him say some things that he shouldn't have said & I've told him so. But I've also see quite a few write things which were designed to elicit a negative response from him. To that end, quite a few complaining about him are equally guilty of practicing the very same behavior which they complain about.
Seriously, check the archives & see how long this has been going on & why no one involved finds it to be ridiculous & simply just let it go, I'll never know.
But truthfully, it's not a one-way street, nor has it ever been & frankly, I believe that more than a few involved really get off on all of this, because most involved are quick to feed into it until it explodes into yet another argument & thread that has to be deleted.
Frankly, had I been Ralph, I'd have banned a few years ago, because since no one really wants to co-exist peacefully, without eventually taking digs at one another, there will never be any peace.
Sorry to be the one to say it [[not really) but Marv is not the only guilty party here. And if anyone really believes that if Marv leaves that the arguments will magically disappear, the evidence suggests that that's not true.
Once upon a time, the argument was that if Ralph would only ban a guy named Isaiah, that peace would reign, which proved to be untrue, because other arguments popped up, friends fell out, new "problem" people joined the forum & arguments continued to occur.
The problem lies less with anything that Ralph does & doesn't do, but rather more with the fact that a group of adults who for some reason unbeknownst to be or anything resembling logic, have decided to turn their music dislikes into some sort of holy crusade against one another.
For about 7 years now.
That Ralph really has to address a situation that grown folks choose not to, by either feeding the flame, or taking their sneaky pot shots of their own, is as ridiculous, as it is disingenuous.
And on the few occasions when I have come back or thought of posting pictures of a show here, it's the same old nonsense, involving the same old people. I just wish that all of you could just take a step back, forget that you're involved, then come back & read half of this stuff & imagine how it all looks to others.
I've been on Facebook trying to get some to come back & always speak highly of Soulful Detroit as a place with great knowledge about music . Then an artist whom I speak with stumbles across some stuff like this & wonder what in the world I'm talking about.
Most of us who've had disagreements here have had our disagreements & in most instances, have moved on, patched things up & made amends. But it's clear that that is not what is wanted here.
And so, it continues & sadly, some of those screaming the loudest, have the muddies hands & whatever's left in the archives verifies that as the truth.
Ralph deserves so much better than people constantly attempting to manipulate him to do their dirty work, when they could simply stop feeding into the nonsense simply because they can't help themselves from going back & forth with a guy who they don't like.
As I said, there are few innocents involved here. But truthfully, no one fights like this amongst one another unless they want to.
For seven YEARS??
That speaks for itself!
Now having said that, I'll also add this. I wish that EVERYONE would stop taking potshots at singers whom they don't like. That adds nothing of worth to any discussion & is unnecessary.
Get in where you fit in.
Soulster,
I agree with you 1000%. It was the same thing 5 years ago & here we are again & I've only been here once in the last 2 years.
Feels as though I never left & have picked up where the last argument left off.
BINGO!!! You definitely get it.
Agreed & I have said this on numerous occasions & even posted links which proved it.
This is EXACTLY what I meant when I responded to your last message.
Now Ralph doesn't respond as you'd like for him to, then you make this great leap & accusation, accusing him of also bring a "Ross-hater". which is a pretty nasty & very unfair tactic for you to attempt to employ.
And sadly, as is the case just about everywhere these days, is par for the course.
Personally, I believe that you owe Ralph an apology.
I agree with you Juicefree and Soulster,it's the same people,with the drama and mess,they post these negative things,because they know,they are gonna get a reaction,when these people,get the negative reaction,they are looking for,i bet,they are gettin' a big laugh,out of it.you'll right Juice,they get some kind of sick kick out of it.playing nice,but really bein' nasty,it's all a sick game,to these people,who keep up mess and drama,[[not all)they go from post to post,just to start mess and drama,Marv is not a big Diana Ross fan,so what,he can like who ever he wants,i see the Diana fans gang up on him tho,and Marv will defend himself,i'v said it many times,i love all The Supremes Mary Florence Diana Cindy Jean Lynda Scherrie and Susaye,everyone has an opinion, but some people here are here,just to be nasty and vindictive,pretending,grown people smh,Ralph you Rock
Excellent post, Juice [[BTW, how have you been?)!
To be blunt, the only way this situation will end is for Ralph to ban the next person[[s) who start something. It's a shame he has to do this to grown people, but if people are going to act like children, they should be dealt with like children.
Unfortunately, I always approach The Forum, cautiously. Thanks to a couple of personal emails from Ralph, I continue but try and limit my participation. There can be a current of negativity that is very disheartening. But at the end of the day, The Forum remains an excellent source of breaking news. If you come with a commitment to civility...you can only hope you receive it in return.
If there are topics or personalities that don't appeal to you, it is your choice to ignore or delete. If on the other hand, one cannot control the temptation to say something negative.....try and consider what a cost it is to the harmony of The Forum.
Were some of the posts deleted? Posts number 130, 131, 133 it seems that Juicefree is talking to someone?
I read the the messages right after Juicefree posted them. There were no posts deleted in between.
To me, it appears that juicefree was responding after his initial post on the subject [[06:05 P.M., 10-01-2015, # 127) to various posts that preceded his without utilizing the Reply With Quote feature.
Everything we see here is by the time and generosity of Ralph and if you don't like it, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya! Simple as that. Anyone who thinks someone "important" avoids this forum because of people's dicussions is delusional. They aren't in here because they move on to other things, or don't have time to be here anymore. I got a news bulletin for you all, considering all these "vip's" that you guys keep referring to as leaving lived through the 1968 riots and all the hoo-ha and drama that working in the music business entails, I don't think anybody is gonna be scared off by a few fans talkin smack. Give me a damn break. So put up or shut up, and get over your damn selves. And I myself would love to see a little more discussion on Gladys Knight. Lady deserves more credit than what she gets, I can see why she's Ralph's favorite.
I agree, Jill! More attention needs to be giving to the Empress of Soul. :)
From having kept up with this thread, it seems to me that it's winding down.
So where are we now?
Don't see a thread you're interested in?
Well, then, why not start one?
See threads that you would rather not?
Well, then, why not avoid them?
Concerned your thread might not receive much viewing or response?
Well, that's part of the nature of threads . . . and the membership. Some are not motivated to respond or feel the need to. Some might want to avoid arguments and criticism that sometimes ensues. Others might have other reasons of which there could be many. It's just the way it is.
And how 'bout those arguments and criticism?
Well, can't they still be made in a way that doesn't inflame, attack, and seem pointed to hurt? There's still room for opinion and disagreement. Without all that has often been a part of it.
This thread began about people leaving. I don't take members choosing to leave the Forum lightly. And I hope they will soon choose to return. From time to time, I question things about the Forum just as anyone else might. And at times, it's more than I want. But for all the other many, many times, it's what I want--interesting, informative, insightful, entertaining, and, yes, fun. It's always at its best when members are at theirs.
Then, what is the friggin' point of even being a member of a forum if you aren't going to participate? Think long and hard on that one.
If one is diplomatic and non-confrontational in their posts, one can conduct an intelligent, and, yes, constructively critical post without being abrasive. The problem with this forum, and a lot of others i've been a member on over the last two decades, is that many seem to be incapable of that.Quote:
And how 'bout those arguments and criticism?
Well, can't they still be made in a way that doesn't inflame, attack, and seem pointed to hurt?
Soulster - Each member decides for himself or herself the degree to which they choose to participate. That's the point. If someone has decided that he or she has nothing to add to the conversation--for whatever reasons--I accept that.
In regard to your second point, I don't think anything can be done to correct what's past--but to learn from it as one goes forward. Who's incapable of that?
Another reason industry pros are loathe to post on message boards is because if they say or do the wrong thing, like misrepresent information, or become personal [[after all, they are human), they could be legally liable, and face consequences from their employer as a result. Which brings me to another reason: some companies forbid their employees and contractors to represent themselves in non-approved sites.
Here's just another reason industry people will not participate on message boards like this:
http://home.cableone.net/news/read/c..._dancing_ba-ap
What I stated about why pros do not participate stands and is true. How many industry pros have you personally communicated with?
To your other reply: To my mind, there is no logical reason to join a forum if one has no intention of participating. It's a waste of that person't time, and makes no logical sense. I know that many people, especially those new to computers or smartphones, tend to join anything and everything, download all kinds of apps they don't need, but, then loose interest.
Maybe it has to do with personality. Perhaps you and I, and other frequent participants, are made of sterner stuff, while the rest are vary passive. I say: if you want to keep the Diana Ross/Mary Wilson [[yeah, I wrote their names) fans from dominating the place, post more about other things, and speak up. And, already, this morning, i'm seeing an uptick in those threads again. The other topics are giving it a go, but how long before my earlier prediction comes true?
Soulster - I'm not sure what exactly you mean by 'industry pro'. Any discussion I may have had with a member about how they feel about SDF would have been personal and private and, as such, would remain so. I understand that you feel comfortable speaking for other people; I, however, do not.
As far as what makes 'logical sense' to you regarding what others do with their technical equipment and why they join chat groups, I couldn't begin to answer. But as far as your own concept of 'logical sense' goes, I certainly wasn't able to follow it as your above posting moved from taking issue with members for not participating to issues with members who have participated by starting some new threads.
There seems to me to be plenty of room for participation or for just viewing, as the case may be. And there also seems to be plenty of room for anyone's thread without infringing on anyone else's space or time.
I already explained that in an earlier post. An industry pro is someone who worked in the record/music/audio industry. They can be active or retired, and the type of pro I am specifically referring to are the active ones such as Andy Skurow and Harry Weinger. My communications have been with one of those two, including others who have appeared on this forum, and others who haven't, and are currently working in the industry, one who has worked on major Motown albums in the 70s. But, my point is that you don't see them much or at all on run of the mill music, audio, and fan-type forums anymore because of hostile members, silly crap like that which occurs here with the Ross/Wilson wars, and the Marv bashing. You can find a lot of these people on Facebook, though. That way, they can network with their peers, and represent their companies in a legitimate, and corporate-sanctioned way. And, if they do pop up on message boards, it is usually only to correct gross mis-information. Also, there's no stopping people from registering under aliases, which means, if they're good, no one would suspect them.
The retired guys can, as you insist, do whatever they want.
I have not disclosed who I have communicated with here, and would not unless I got their permission.Quote:
Any discussion I may have had with a member about how they feel about SDF would have been personal and private and, as such, would remain so. I understand that you feel comfortable speaking for other people; I, however, do not.
That's not my fault you aren't following what I am saying.Quote:
As far as what makes 'logical sense' to you regarding what others do with their technical equipment and why they join chat groups, I couldn't begin to answer. But as far as your own concept of 'logical sense' goes, I certainly wasn't able to follow it as your above posting moved from taking issue with members for not participating to issues with members who have participated by starting some new threads.
My point is that there is no point joining here if you don't plan on participating. Anyone can read the place without joining.Quote:
There seems to me to be plenty of room for participation or for just viewing, as the case may be. And there also seems to be plenty of room for anyone's thread without infringing on anyone else's space or time.
Soulster - I think it's reasonable to assume that when people first chose to join, it was with the possibility that they might want to post at some point and needed membership to do so. But whether or not they have posted since joining, or infrequently, or not at all is simply their choice. And so for me, it's not an issue that I could discuss in either a negative or positive light. Why would you want to if you respect members?
As to being able to follow your arguments, I wasn't able to follow what you called the 'logical sense' of taking issue with people for not participating and also taking issue with people who do participate--specifically, those who have recently posted new threads about people or subjects [[i.e., Supremes/Ross) that you would prefer they didn't. It's a stance that doesn't seem logical to me--in a very basic way at cross-purposes.
From what you've been saying, I sense your loss about some of the Forum's 'voices' that no longer or very rarely appear here. That's understandable. But what I think you're asking for isn't--and that is control. With a basically totally open forum that's available to anyone who wants it, I don't think the controls that you would like in place can be attained, and certainly not maintained. And if they could be, I doubt that I would look forward to this site as I currently do.
If you would like the last word in our go-round, it's yours for the taking.
As one who has been on many other forums, I say some of the more unsavory aspects of this forum can be curtailed. But, we heard the mods: nothing will change.
I don't need a last word. It is nice that the two of us, who often find ourselves on opposite sides of issues, can still have a civil discussion without it turning into a war.Quote:
If you would like the last word in our go-round, it's yours for the taking.
Sorry about that guys, it shows you how behind the curve I am here. I hit "reply" beneath certain comments, believe that it would appear below them as it does on Facebook. Indeed, it does appear as though I'm having a one-way conversation with myself!
For what it's worth, I was addressing Rick, for writing that Ralph "hates" Diana Ross because he won't chop off Marv's head. I believe that what he wrote was more than a little unfair & I believe that Ralph deserves an apology from him.
I replied "Bingo" to the ones who understand that the nonsense has been a two-way street & is not just attributable to Marv. I've been here since the end of 2003 & I've seen it all & again, there's blame on both sides.
I've always believed that what someone does elsewhere, belongs kept outside of these doors & I recall a situation a few years back, when folks wanted Marv banned for something that he said on Youtube.
While I don't agree with his opinion of Diana Ross, that's his business & he has the right to feel however he wants to feel about her. But as long as he didn't bring it here, neither should anyone else have brought it here.
Having said that, I do wish that he'd simply allow the Diana Ross folks to enjoy their conversations about Diana Ross. On the other hand, I wish that they too, would stop taking their own potshots, which are not as slick, nor as veiled as they believe them to be. I've also seen Marv called out in threads in which he had made no comments whatsoever.
We call that "taunting" & if that's not a deliberate attempt to start a fire, I don't know what is. This was about 2 or 3 years ago & when I pointed that out, one of our more esteemed members came up with this whole ridiculous premise about how Marv, Ralph & myself were conspiring together, which is why to this day, I have no respect whatsoever for this former & have never addressed him since & very little before, because I don't like people who pretend to be "innocent", yet when you really look at how they try to use a velvet glove, their behavior is no better than the person who they call "troublemaker".
Then too, we've had conversations about other artists, only to have these same people impose by bringing up Diana Ross, when the thread has nothing to do with her, which is just as annoying to the rest of us, as Marv doing it to them.
Soulster, everything's alright, thank you for asking.
My mom passed away at the end of June, so, it was a bit hectic both before & after her passing.
As to what you said about entertainers visiting here, I'm sad to say that you are correct about that. I said the same thing a few years ago & the usual voices who simply want to keep behaving as they do basically shrugged it off.
Being that I'm not limited to Motown, nor any ONE specific group, I can guarantee you that I either know, or have been around literally hundreds more artists than they are & speak with them. Many of them are my friends or reasonably close acquaintances, meaning that while we may not see each other or speak on the phone often, we know one another when we see one another [[usually at shows) & we do talk.
I've always been on a Facebook crusade to try to get some of our old forumers to participate, but they are tired of having to see the same 20 year-old argument[[s), continually playing out here.
And the weird thing is that most of us who once had disagreements, have long since patched thing up. Life's just too short for that kind of nonsense. Seriously, who has time to argue with anyone for 7 or 8 years about the same thing, over & over again?
People can blame who they want to, but when they're willing participants in 7 years worth of arguments over something that's just not that serious, then that speaks far louder than any denials that they attempt to make.
Again, this isn't about justifying the behavior of anyone, Marv or otherwise. The point is that there are few innocents & both give as good as they take.
Now Ralph is a pretty perceptive guy, which is why he handles things as he does & he has the patience of a saint. But if he were to give them what they want & let's face it, Marv & others have been banished & allowed to return [[including a few on the opposite side of the fence), a few of them would be following Marv right out the door.
I said it before & I honestly believe that these arguments are less about The Supremes & more about grown folks who act like kids, loving being on center stage with assorted histrionics. Obsession of any kind doesn't strike me as being emotionally healthy, but maybe that's just me.
And a look at the archives suggests this to be true.
Soulster,
You are also correct when you speak about people not creating threads. You're quite accurate about that.
Being in N.Y., I understand if people don't care about the groups from here, But I remember creating threads about The Four Tops, only to have people downplay them because Levi was no longer in the group. Same thing with threads about The Dramatics, The Spinners, Enchantment, Carl Carlton, Bettye LaVette & other Detroit artists.
What's the point of taking the time to post a bunch of pictures, when it appears as though people just want to talk about the same 2 or 3 artists?
And even at that, some thoughtless person would feel compelled to inject negativity into the proceedings, by pointing out that "so & so isn't the same" or something to disparage the current line-up.
Funny, but you don't hear Rolling Stones fans, or fans of The Greatful Dead doing that sort of thing. But we always have had that one or 2 who'd rather discuss Aretha's weight, or who lost a bit of their upper register & other personal crap & frankly, it does get tiring.
Which is why I find it ridiculous when some of these same folks who inject negativity into discussions of other artists, get so beside themselves if someone suggests that they didn't like "Bad Weather" or some other song sung by Diana Ross & The Supremes.
I like a lot of groups & artists & I can honestly tell you that to my ears, even Sam Cooke & Jackie Wilson hit a few pop-ups in their day & James Brown was my favorite & I can freely admit that he had more than his share of clunkers.
So again, your remarks are on point, as I've spoken to several folks, including many of those who were highly respected here because of what they'd accomplished in music. And they always come back to one thing...the same old people having the same old arguments & snarky remarks, who have no tolerance for anyone who doesn't love their favorite artist[[s), as much as they do.
And that's the sentiment spoken to me by artists & family members right there in Detroit.
Which won't stop even one of the participants from behaving as they do.
It won't because the reality is that they seem to believe that they're bigger than this forum & in fact, we should be happy that they bother to grace us with the same old discussions about the beads on the gown shown on whatever LP cover & that we're allowed to watch them beat the hell out of one another on this forum.
If they truly cared about THIS forum as they claim that they do, then there's no way in hell that after returning here after what's been pretty much a two-year absence, I'd be seeing the same old fights involving the same old names.
That speaks volumes more than anything that anyone could possibly say.
Ralph & all of the rest of you deserve better than this.
Juice, I miss your great photos man.
Juice, thank you for being one of the very few around here who understand where i'm coming from, and also see exactly what I see on this forum.
Some of that bunch of members want Marv banned here because he has an opinion on Diana Ross, and allegedly said something about gays on a YouTube video years ago. Well, he didn't do it here, and he is entitled to his opinion about any artist he wants to comment on. That is not against the forum rules. If I say that I can't stand Ross as a person, and think several of her Motown albums are terrible, I have that right to say it. I did not break any rules, and the Ross brigade will just have to deal with it. After all, I didn't say it about any members. If I had that would be against the forum rules. But, they do that all the time to Marv, and I see it all the time.
So, why does the Ross Brigade keep bringing up Marv? I was told by someone here that these Ross fans brought in reinforcements to try to rid this place of Marv by taunting him. I was told that since Ralph won't ban Marv, that their plan was to ruin this place and force Ralph into shutting this place down by posting endless Diana Ross threads and posts. I am seriously starting to believe this from what i've seen for years.
You also mentioned artists. I mentioned producers and recording engineers. They just aren't here anymore because of this Ross mess. Tom Moulton, Bob Olhsson, Harry Weinger...where are they? They don't want to deal with that mess. Russ Terrana, Ralph's twin brother, probably doesn't even want to step foot in here.
I hadn't thought of it, soulster, but I definitely see a pattern! It hit me a few years ago, but now I can see some fans [[well stans, really, I'm a fan of Diana, not a stan lol) that would give "hints" in their Diana threads. It stands out like a sore thumb because whenever Marv makes his posts, he don't "go there" so to speak, he keeps it on topic. When he talks about Mary or the other Supremes, he don't bring up Diana unless the stans come... that's when I realized it was a bigger issue than Marv saying anything negative towards Diana... it wasn't Marv that drove that many members out of here...
Hi Juice, thanks for the explanation! I was a little confused, but you have cleared it up. I agree with your comments 100% & I think that Ralph is doing a whiz-bang job as moderator!
Yup, it looks like that is their real motivation, to disrupt this place to punish Ralph for not getting rid of Marv, and it's working. Another member said that he has a new forum for the Ross fans so they don't have to post here, but, they are still here. Why? Marv?