Sound Engineering Question: "The Miracles Oh Be My Love"

Hopefully, Bradburger will see this as he always seems to pick right up on what I'm going on about. From the Away We A Go-Go album, this has always been one of my favorites. There is something ethereal, otherworldly and sinuously, seriously slinky about "Oh Be My Love." The tempo is at such a relaxed, slow-as-molasses pace, this had to have been an ultimate make out tune. [[And that bass line though- there is some serious finger work going on with this one.)

One thing in particular about this song; I always felt the drums sounded as if they were hitting the beat just a millisecond off, a very casual playing technique very different than Motown's usual right-on-the-beat style. So recently, I was listening to this when it hit me- was this thing recorded at one speed and then slowed down a tone or two? There is something in the drum sound that made me wonder if that's what is going on here. I'd love to hear others' opinions on this. So recently, I was listening to this when it hit me- was this thing recorded at one speed and then slowed down a tone or two? There is something in the drum sound that made me wonder if that's what is going on here. https://youtu.be/87pVMtVSQhs

A very good question WWLFAC.

Not that I will be able to give a correct answer, only my thoughts!

Could it be that a delayed backbeat was tried for this track, as the famous Stax drummer Al Jackson Jr was famous for on all those classic songs cut there? [Think 'In the Midnight Hour'].

Or did it it happen naturally on this track?

I guess you have to take into account that Motown's engineering and recording methods where far more advance than any other company's at the time, as they designed and developed it for their own needs.

I don't know if it was practical to cut parts of the rhythm track at a slightly slower speed to achieve the delayed beat effect on this track, but I guess it's possible that the drums could be an overdub to the original, and maybe Pistol or Smokey & Pete Moore [or one of the other Funk Brothers] decided to do it this way. Or could there have been a slight delay in speed on the 8 track machine when it was overdubbed and what Pistol was hearing?

Or maybe this track and it's tempo/arrangement cause our brains to interpret it as having a slightly delayed beat? [Much like the dreaded time signature question].

No doubt some others can chime in with their thoughts!

Cheers

Paul

I d I play the drums and my take is that it was played the way it was on purpose a la Al Jackson, Jr. and Charlie Watts. But perhaps directed by Mr. Robinson or Mr. Moore.

Also love the feel of "Can You Love A Poor Boy" - a Philly/NJ classic from the Mighty Miracles

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Originally Posted by bradburger

A very good question WWLFAC.

Not that I will be able to give a correct answer, only my thoughts!

Could it be that a delayed backbeat was tried for this track, as the famous Stax drummer Al Jackson Jr was famous for on all those classic songs cut there? [Think 'In the Midnight Hour'].

Or did it it happen naturally on this track?

I guess you have to take into account that Motown's engineering and recording methods where far more advance than any other company's at the time, as they designed and developed it for their own needs.

I don't know if it was practical to cut parts of the rhythm track at a slightly slower speed to achieve the delayed beat effect on this track, but I guess it's possible that the drums could be an overdub to the original, and maybe Pistol or Smokey & Pete Moore [or one of the other Funk Brothers] decided to do it this way. Or could there have been a slight delay in speed on the 8 track machine when it was overdubbed and what Pistol was hearing?

Or maybe this track and it's tempo/arrangement cause our brains to interpret it as having a slightly delayed beat? [Much like the dreaded time signature question].

No doubt some others can chime in with their thoughts!

Cheers

Paul

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Hi Paul, I was hoping you'd see this one. Funny you mention the Stax drumming style because I made that same observation when I wrote the comments on this song for the video. I do appreciate your comments and I'm thinking you might be hitting on something with the idea of the drums being overdubbed.

I had the idea of the entire track having been slowed down in part because I had also been playing the infamous slowed down 45 version of "Tears..." I thought I might have had an AHA! moment, but I think your theory of drum overdubs is more plausible.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by tjl

Also love the feel of "Can You Love A Poor Boy" - a Philly/NJ classic from the Mighty Miracles

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Funny you should mention this song. For years I heard both "Can You Love A Poor Boy" and "Oh Be My Love" as "twin songs". They don't necessarily sound alike, but there is something in these two songs that I can't think of one without the other.

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Originally Posted by Motown4Ever518

I d I play the drums and my take is that it was played the way it was on purpose a la Al Jackson, Jr. and Charlie Watts. But perhaps directed by Mr. Robinson or Mr. Moore.

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More than likely, you and Paul are on target with this being deliberate.

Here's my two cents worth. One is that the main track and the vocals, to my ears and checking it out with my keyboards, appear to be tuned to the industry standard [[A=440 hz). Because Waiting emphasized focusing on the drums, it appeared, to my ears and the way the drums sit in the mix, that the drum track might have been overdubbed. As others have suggested, the drummer may have been playing to a track and then his track was slightly slowed as it was later mixed in with the original track.

Then again, Motown4Ever and Paul, have an even more valid contention that this was a style of playing that was done deliberately.

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Originally Posted by jobucats

Here's my two cents worth. One is that the main track and the vocals, to my ears and checking it out with my keyboards, appear to be tuned to the industry standard [[A=440 hz).

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I really appreciate the input from everyone on this and your statement is definitely illuminating- I didn't know there was an industry standard regarding recording speeds and such, yet I shouldn't be surprised. You even showed what that standard is. So that eliminates the idea that this was a slowed-down recording. Thank you for checking that out!

WWLFAC,

This is what I would say on the topic:

I think what you're hearing is both a timbral [[the sound) and rhythmic [[the timing) effect created by the interlocking of the drumset and conga drums. There are two hand drums in the conga set, one with a higher pitch and one lower. Sometimes the conga pattern hits directly on top of either the bass or snare and combines to make the "otherworldly" sound you're talking about. In other instances [[and this mostly happens with the higher pitched conga) the conga hits slightly after the kit drum part, creating a kind of "flam" sound. This is what is causing the impression of a delayed backbeat. The drum set is recorded with a bit more room sound [[but mot much more) than a usual Studio A track. Honestly, a lot of the tone also comes from the performers themselves. The snare is tuned pretty low and is being struck and allowed to resonate in a manner pretty purposefully. The room could really resonate if a player wanted, and this is clearly an instance in which the drummer is making a specific choice about how to create this groove.

Lefty

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Originally Posted by lefty

WWLFAC,

This is what I would say on the topic:

I think what you're hearing is both a timbral [[the sound) and rhythmic [[the timing) effect created by the interlocking of the drumset and conga drums. There are two hand drums in the conga set, one with a higher pitch and one lower. Sometimes the conga pattern hits directly on top of either the bass or snare and combines to make the "otherworldly" sound you're talking about. In other instances [[and this mostly happens with the higher pitched conga) the conga hits slightly after the kit drum part, creating a kind of "flam" sound. This is what is causing the impression of a delayed backbeat. The drum set is recorded with a bit more room sound [[but mot much more) than a usual Studio A track. Honestly, a lot of the tone also comes from the performers themselves. The snare is tuned pretty low and is being struck and allowed to resonate in a manner pretty purposefully. The room could really resonate if a player wanted, and this is clearly an instance in which the drummer is making a specific choice about how to create this groove.

Lefty

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Excellent observation, Lefty!

What a run of B sides… A fork in the road, Swept for you baby, Oh be my love, You must be love, Choosey beggar.. plus the one that wasn’t a ballad but I absolutely love, Save Me, flip of Come round here…

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Originally Posted by lefty

WWLFAC,

This is what I would say on the topic:

I think what you're hearing is both a timbral [[the sound) and rhythmic [[the timing) effect created by the interlocking of the drumset and conga drums. There are two hand drums in the conga set, one with a higher pitch and one lower. Sometimes the conga pattern hits directly on top of either the bass or snare and combines to make the "otherworldly" sound you're talking about. In other instances [[and this mostly happens with the higher pitched conga) the conga hits slightly after the kit drum part, creating a kind of "flam" sound. This is what is causing the impression of a delayed backbeat. The drum set is recorded with a bit more room sound [[but mot much more) than a usual Studio A track. Honestly, a lot of the tone also comes from the performers themselves. The snare is tuned pretty low and is being struck and allowed to resonate in a manner pretty purposefully. The room could really resonate if a player wanted, and this is clearly an instance in which the drummer is making a specific choice about how to create this groove.

Lefty

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Lefty, I'm blown away by all the comments on this. I appreciate your take on it all, in ways I hadn't considered: "timral" and "rhythmic"- the relationship between the drumset and congas. Years ago, I remember I could not for the life of me figure out the bass line on Stevie Wonder's "Uptight" and the Four Tops' "Shake Me, Wake Me." I asked my father to listen and he pinpointed it right off: I was hearing both the bass and the bass drum combined and it was clouding what what I thought I was hearing vs. what was actually being played. In effect, he said the same thing you did, only we didn't have the words for it. Funny how someone comes in with the right words suddenly there's a name for something. Timbral, "flam"- that word really describes that sound I'm hearing. You shed even more light on this subject and I'm just enjoying everyone's comments so much on this.

Thank you everyone!

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Originally Posted by soulwally

What a run of B sides… A fork in the road, Swept for you baby, Oh be my love, You must be love, Choosey beggar.. plus the one that wasn’t a ballad but I absolutely love, Save Me, flip of Come round here…

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I honestly don't know if I'm being biased because I'm such a Motown fanatic, but I really don't think any other record company in the 60s consistently- CONSISTENTLY- had B-sides that were as stellar and as captivating as the A-sides. Sure, there were a few lackluster things here and there, but on the whole, you got your money's worth on just about every 45.

I`ve always loved "Oh Be My Love" and the album is my favourite of the Miracles. A very interesting chord sequence too.

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Originally Posted by Roger Polhill

I`ve always loved "Oh Be My Love" and the album is my favourite of the Miracles. A very interesting chord sequence too.

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Yes, this one is very unusual in how there's a fair bit of modulation going on during the choruses but always returns to the original key for the verses. I'd love to have been there as they were shaping the song and decided on the chord progression.

Is that Uriel Jones on drums?

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Originally Posted by Sotosound

Is that Uriel Jones on drums?

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It's Pistol!

Cheers

Paul

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Originally Posted by bradburger

It's Pistol!

Cheers

Paul

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Ahhh! HE'S the one who does that thing where he hits the snare and follows it up with a strike on the tom, a sort of TIK-BOOM. Stevie Wonder's "Hey Love" opens with this signature and it's peppered throughout the song. [[Or did all those guys do that on occasion?)

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Originally Posted by WaitingWatchingLookingForAChance

Ahhh! HE'S the one who does that thing where he hits the snare and follows it up with a strike on the tom, a sort of TIK-BOOM. Stevie Wonder's "Hey Love" opens with this signature and it's peppered throughout the song. [[Or did all those guys do that on occasion?)

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Who knows? And I’m not sure how Bradburger knows, there are no published session musician logs from those days
Remember in the SITSOM film where Pistol attempts to describe the difference between Benny, himself and Uriel? No, I couldn’t follow him either

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Originally Posted by bradburger

It's Pistol!

Cheers

Paul

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Many thanks

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Originally Posted by soulwally

Who knows? And I’m not sure how Bradburger knows, there are no published session musician logs from those days
Remember in the SITSOM film where Pistol attempts to describe the difference between Benny, himself and Uriel? No, I couldn’t follow him either

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There are people who have a gift for discerning different musicians' styles and signatures. Much like a jazz aficionado can tell you exact what musicians were playing with Dave Brubeck on any given recording. After watching that segment with Pistol, it did help me tune my ears better; there's no doubt about Benny's style- the fills tell the story there. And I'm starting to discern the unique fills Pistol did vs. Uriel. Not always, but there are some really telling drum patterns and pickups distinct to each.

The drums on the intro to illuthe Marvelettes' "You're The One For Me Bobby" matches a style Pistol illustrates in that clip. My problem is I'm not meticulous enough to keep it straight if that's Pistol's or Uriel's style. Also, I remember it's been commented on how Uriel really hit those drums HARD. Now I'm starting to listen for that.

Paul has great ears.

I've only heard of a few instances where drums were overdubbed before 1969. We never used "room" microphones but this could have been more bleed than usual.

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Originally Posted by bob_olhsson

I've only heard of a few instances where drums were overdubbed before 1969. We never used "room" microphones but this could have been more bleed than usual.

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Interesting Bob.

As you say, I don't think it was widespread, but it certainly happened on several occasions prior to then.

The Tempts 'Get Ready' had a new drum track overdubbed on it, as it would seem QC didn't like the unusual beat the original had [it's been discussed here before - one of the members on this forum acquired an acetate of a mix with the original drums which you can find on YouTube].

And if you listen to the stereo mix of the Spinners 'Where is that Girl', on the intro you can clearly hear a metronome ticking away on the drum track, which suggest overdubbed drums.

Of course, Marvin & Tammi's 'Ain't No Mountain High Enough' had some new drums overdubbed to 'fatten it up' - on the isolated overdub from the M&T 8 track master, you can hear a metronome ticking away as well! [I've uploaded both Benny's original cut at Studio B/Golden World, & Uriel's overdub as a stereo track on my Soundcloud account if anyone want's to take a listen - just click the homepage link on my profile].

The Temptations 'Little Miss Sweetness' appears to be another, and interestingly at times, you can hear the original drums as well. [Maybe this was an early two drummer session, or just bleed from the original drums on the multitrack].

[Oh, I think Stevie's 'I Was Made To Love Her' is another!]

Cheers

Paul

I can't remember anyone playing to a metronome or "click" other than R. Dean Taylor who was overdubbing everything himself. Stevie laid down a keyboard followed by his drums with no metronome. Sometimes one of the drummers played a count on his sticks to keep everybody together for the parts of an arrangement where the drums were meant to be left out. When drums were overdubbed, it was in addition to the original.

People overdubbing everything instead of recording a complete rhythm section didn't become common until the mid '70s.

This is getting really good.

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Originally Posted by bradburger

And if you listen to the stereo mix of the Spinners 'Where is that Girl', on the intro you can clearly hear a metronome ticking away on the drum track, which suggest overdubbed drums.

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Years ago, I recall listening to the stereo mix of Jimmy Ruffin's "As Long As There Is L-O-V-E Love" and being startled at the absolute clarity of the sound on this- in particular because of a ticking sound I could hear on the intro, just before the drums kick in. I remember thinking those mics were so powerful, Jimmy's microphone was picking up the ticking of his wrist watch! So now, I'm wondering if that maybe was a metronome that I was hearing. Very interesting all the same, whatever it is I'm hearing there.

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Originally Posted by bradburger

The Temptations 'Little Miss Sweetness' appears to be another, and interestingly at times, you can hear the original drums as well. [Maybe this was an early two drummer session, or just bleed from the original drums on the multitrack].

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I'm always surprised that the stuff I was picking up on are things you were hearing as well. I never thought anyone else noticed this one. One drummer is playing what seems to be a Smokey Robinson signature drum lick [[heard on "My Girl Has Gone," "Fading Away," and many others: RAT-tat-a-TAT on the snare followed by two cymbal strikes) and he's playing it from start to finish, except during the choruses. The second drummer is playing the traditional straight beat [[2 and 4) but during the choruses, one of these guys is playing quarter [[?) notes, or on every beat [[1,2,3,4). That's a rather unusual production choice and I remember loving the song even more after I noticed that.

I assumed that was an early two-drummer session, but it is interesting to ponder.