Ok we’ve gotten way off topic and it’s starting to be the same bull we argue about constantly. And since none of us was there to confirm or deny the events at hand. All we have is our opinions.
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Ok we’ve gotten way off topic and it’s starting to be the same bull we argue about constantly. And since none of us was there to confirm or deny the events at hand. All we have is our opinions.
Let me step in if i may,look berry gordy should get all the credit[or the blame if you wish]for the supremes success,if he had not heard something in the[nasally sound]of the skinny one with the big eyes we would'nt be here discussing it,or fighting over it or whatever it is that happens here,i'm out!!
What does that have to do with it? Same old excuses. If you look at it that way then I guess you can say Gladys-Smokey-Martha were more selfish than Diana if they were like from the very beginning. At least Diana shared in the beginning. Why didn't Martha, Smokey, and Gladys share in the beginning? Because of their eggos and they were the stars! Diana Ross isn't the only superstar who didn't want the spotlight!
If the supremes were marketed like the vandellas or the miracles or the four tops or Gladys and the pips then the argument would change. But since the girls were marketed as individuals, it leads us to the discussion at hand.
But it was always Gladys and the pips from day one. even when she left and came back it went right back to Gladys and the pips. and it
They were from 1952 until 1961. Like Berry did for the Supremes, Bobby Robinson suggested the Pips add Gladys' name on top of theirs. When Gladys left following her marriage to Jimmy Newman, the other Pips toured on their own as just the Pips until Gladys reunited with them in 1964.
The Miracles actually had their moniker changed first. They were still "The Miracles" when they began to hit the pop mainstream with the Going to a Go-Go album and released the singles but the album cover listed them as Smokey Robinson and The Miracles.
A good two years before Motown decided to add Diana's name in front of the Supremes [[it was first as The Supremes WITH Diana Ross before it switched to Diana Ross & The Supremes the night Flo stuck her stomach out while drunk during one of the performances following her birthday).
Originally the Vandellas were gonna be just that until Berry or someone suggested Martha's first name should be up there. I also think Phil Spector added Ronnie Spector's first name in front of the Ronettes after Be My Baby became popular.
No it wasn't.
When the Pips made their recording debut on Brunswick in 1957, they went as simply The Pips. Gladys' name was NOT put in front:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWJM4_0dEPA
This came out before anyone knew what a Primette or Supreme or Temptation or Miracle [[who were now going as that in the same year the Pips' debut record came out) was.
Also, the big scandal way before the Supremes were the Famous Flames. Initially when they formed, James Brown's name wasn't put in front of their name. It was first the Flames, then Little Richard's manager suggested they add "Famous" there to promote themselves better. After "Please Please Please" came out on Federal Records in 1956, James hired Ben Bart, who suggested the group become JAMES BROWN with the Famous Flames, that led to each and every member including Bobby Byrd walking out and leaving the group in protest. And James later had it that every record, including those he recorded solo or with his band [[starting roughly around 1959 or 1960) to be categorized as a James Brown and the Famous Flames recording even without the actual vocalists on it. That led many to think The Famous Flames was the name of his band [[which was easy to miscategorize because JB treated them like they were working FOR him rather than WITH him).
It took MANY years to be corrected and the 2012 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame committee finally fixed this glaring mistake. Like James blew up huge, but he was simply a lead singer of a group when songs like Please, Please, Please, Try Me, I'll Go Crazy and Oh Baby Don't You Weep were hits.
You can say Ike Turner did the reverse with Tina Turner, only adding his name because he wanted to assert control despite the fact it was Tina, and not Ike, that was singing lead on virtually every I&TT song that came out in their 16-year career.
But somehow what happened with the Supremes and Motown later on is supposed to be a unique thing. It's only unique because the group members whose name wasn't "Diana" had something to say about it. Berry felt the group's image couldn't last as a trio because one of the original members' hearts was not in it anymore after realizing that Motown was no longer the "family-oriented" company it was when they joined and had become a business that pretty much owned each and every act and put them under a salary, which was less than what every other act was getting paid.
I mean if we're gonna keep it real, let's get every fact right.
With Gladys, it was understandable because she had stayed with them for nearly 40 years [[though I did read that William Guest felt some type of way about it).
But Smokey's tenure in the Miracles was as long as Diana's in the Supremes so yeah, makes you wonder. If Smoke had had his way, he'd left by the time 1970 hit had Tears of a Clown not been popular. I'm sure Pete, Ronnie and Bill felt some type of way about it but they didn't air their dirty laundry in the street...
James Brown didn't think of the Famous Flames as anything but in his way of superstardom. No one talks of how much he hogged the spotlight. At one point, he got into a beef with Joe Tex over being "Soul Brother No. 1", had an intense rivalry with Wilson Pickett, who also rubbed it in James' face that he had the better vocals, and tried to bully Solomon Burke into giving him his trademark crown and cape and call him "the true king of soul". Solomon wouldn't do any of that but agreed to be in the show and got paid by James.
We know how Aretha Franklin got jealous of every female artist that started to get a little fame, from Gladys to Patti to Natalie to Whitney to...DIANA lol
One woman from the most successful girl group of all time decides she wants the spotlight and she's the devil...
Also someone said "Berry deserves the credit for the Supremes". Uh DUH, he deserves credit for each and every single one who hit it big in the early Motown years. That's like mentioning that Brian Epstein made the Beatles who they were or Allen Klein made the Rolling Stones. Or Kenny Gamble & Leon Huff made stars out of the O'Jays, Billy Paul and the Three Degrees. Or Joe Jackson making the Jackson 5.
That's like saying when an apple falls from a tree and hits you in the head, you know it's gonna hurt you.
In the miracles case even before the name change was made they were still refereed Smokey Robinson and the Miracles as far back as 63
Don't seem like they did much protesting about songs. Think Flo's thing was she wanted a break. Unsung mentioned how she felt overworked by 1966 and was tired of having to perform. The Supremes protesting about leads didn't really happen until after both Florence and Diana were gone... but I ain't one to gossip so you ain't heard that from me.
that question should be asked to the other Supreme fans. You can repeat over and over how come such and such group do this but so and so gets flack. I really don’t know, repeating it over and over again isn’t going to change anyone’s mind. It’s just one of those y.
My personal opinion is it’s all about the marketing.
The Miracles, The Pips, and The Supremes is what I remember. A good marketing tool is to bring the lead singer's name out front. I get that all too well. I have often wonder what would have happen if Diana left in 65-67 and what would have become of the Super Dooper Supremes.
Also when Barbara Martin was interviewed for the box set why couldn't Barbara Martin be interviewed by the person doing the interview ? Why did Mary do the interview for her and then bring back what she said ? All so very odd and mysterious to me.
At any rate it is what it is.......................Draw your own conclusions..........
^ Wait Mary interviewed her? WHAT?
You’re reading too deep into it
The Supremes Seemed to have 3 leads when they came to Motown, but Berry was only interested in Diana and told them so. They could have left, quit or refused but they didn’t. They agreed, became the biggest American group and crabbed about it. I’m not blaming anyone, we all make our choices, but it’s ignorant to blame Diana for Berry’s decision. How can she be hogging what was given to her? Did she want to share? Who knows. Did it matter if she did? Would Berry give leads away in his #1 group if he didn’t want to? It’s all so sophomoric to blame Diana for taking the leads given - that simply was the program. Period. And it worked beyond anyone’s wildest dream and created history.
It was in the act in St. Louis in early 67. I thought Flo sang it all, but I might be remembering incorrectly. I know Diana was not on it because I recall vividly the look on her face as Flo sang - she seemed proud or something....happy maybe - but she was never in the main spotlight on that song. There pink and blue spotlights and `Flo was in a white light. I know I saw Mary sing it with Flo in 1966. I don’t ever recall Diana singing on it, but she might have in 1965…… I think I would remember back, but I just don’t remember her ever singing it. I was shocked when I first heard the recording of it and diana was singing with Flo.
While I believe that the publisher wanted as much dirt in the book as possible, I do not believe for one second that they would’ve been unhappy with the truth. like a lot of things in her book, I think this excuse is a large truck load of Horse manure.
Just because someone asks you to lie, doesn’t mean you have to lie. There was no reason to lie about people, there was no reason to lie about Florence on the Tonight Show, there was no reason to lie about the use of the Andantes, or to lie about interrupting flow during that interview which wound up on 25th anniversary… When it was actually Mary that interrupt ed Flo - there was anything wrong With that, but she used it as an example if Diana interrupting Flo, when it was really Mary. I feel that Mary was very disingenuous with her book, but, pretending not to understand why diana was upset with her after it’s release, is the most disingenuous thing anyone has ever said ever. Period! “ what did I ever do to her? “ she wailed outside of Spragga when she wasn’t invited to the party…… LOL
Mary interrupted Flo on the Tonight Show?
[Insert Qaadir's "OKAY now catch the TEA on that".gif]
This thread has become something else other than if Florence had stayed in the Supremes and how someone felt that she would have been good on "Stoned Love". Like I stated, with the inner tensions had Florence stayed, gordy would have pulled Diana Ross out sooner and probably discontinued the Supremes. had they got a third member with Florence and Mary, he would have given them even less attention than the 1970's Supremes because the company just didn't have the resources and Gordy would have made it his mission to prove he felt Diana Ross was irreplaceable. That aside, all of the members of the Supremes were talented and gave the group their own look and sound and I celebrate all of them and their talents.
no, Mary interrupted Flo during an interview on 25rh anniversary ...but in her book, she says Diana interrupted her.
In her book, Mary says that after Diana announced there was standings on the Tonight Show, that Flo monopolized the conversation after that and giving funny and honest answers to all of Johnny Carson‘s questions. However, now that we have that video, nothing could be further from the truth. I’m sure there are some true things In Mary’s books, but in her zeal to badmouth Diana, she resorts to lying.
It’s the same thing with the people story…….She purposely lead people to believe that glow had had her baby taken away from her which is not true and she neglected to state the fact that she was singing solos on it for at least two years. The way she tells the story versus the way it really happened is pure unadulterated Falsehood. That’s why I question a lot of the things in Mary’s books, because so much has been proven to be omitted or not true or misleading. And in my opinion there’s no excuse for it as it is clear just exactly what her agenda was.
and as we've mentioned before how she forgot to mention things like the interest free loan from DR that kept her from losing her house! did you see that in the book? I didn't!! lol
I can't see what everyone else wrote because they are on ignore. I know this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. First of all, I believe you are referring to Mary Wilson. That $30,000 loan Diane made to Mary in 1981 after Mary's divorce was paid back within a year INCLUDING INTEREST!. Mary Wilson wrote about that in detail in her book "Supreme Faith: Someday We'll Be Together" pub. 1990 Harper Collins. Everyone that read the book knows it. Now what else Supremely monumental happened in 1981? Yep, Diane signed a recording deal with RCA for $20 million. That $30,000 including interest payments was chump change especially after all Mary Wilson has done for Diana Ross in the past.......!
Whoever said Mary did not mention that is lying and needs to stop lying all the time. How else do you think we even know about the loan? Mary wrote about it in her book! Lying for the sake of lying just damages the person's overall reputation when they lie. They become known as "the liar", so stop lying all the time.
If you guys want my opinion on this matter, I think the thread is silly. Who knows what would happen if so and so stayed in a group or who was responsible for what. Its the music business. Get over it.
^ And that's pretty much all there is to that.
You are correct that Mary said she paid it back with interest as requested. Personal loans of that size need to charge minimal interest or the IRS gets involved. It was chump change and I’m sure no biggie, but she had just been ripped off pretty good, so she was being more careful. Mary did very little for Diana that I can think of. What were you referring to?
as for lying, .....////
However, if Flo HAD stayed, it would be because she was OK and the group would have been as or more popular. I do not think Flo on any of the records that the on Dantes did would’ve changed the fortunes of those records, but it would’ve been so wonderful to have her there. Then, after January 14, 1970, the addition of Jhené to row would not have been such a shock to the system and I think the new group would have fared much better . Flo didn’t have to sing any leads, and maybe she would’ve had one here in there, just having her in the group improved it so much. She was immensely popular and without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music that I can think of…… No one even comes close! She would’ve been adorable in the green swirl dresses, the butterfly downs, the pleated sleeves ......If Flo had stayed, the group would’ve been more popular in the 60s and the 70s…… No matter what her participation was. By the time mary got her hair together which was 1968, the two of them would’ve been dynamite of epic proportion’s.
in the 1960's, it was all about RADIO, a record was a hit or it wasn't...and RADIO didn't care about all of the above, if it did, all those Andantes backed Diana Ross records released as Supremes wouldn't have gone to #1..
In your thinking [[and this is not a negative indictment by me), was Florence being "without question the most popular background singer in the history of pop music" true back in the sixties or is it true based on what happened to her that folk found out about her tragic death? Living back in the 60s, other than from Supreme fans, I don't recall there being a lot of buzz in the popular music realm about either Mary or Florence as individuals.
You are quite right - radio didn’t care that Flo left - only I did! What I was saying is that there was some small amount of drop off in interest in the group cuz Flo was gone but that after Ross left, The 70s Supremes would not have seemed so unfamiliar if Jean was the only new member. Flo was beloved by a large part of the core fans - the casual fans didn’t care who it was - but let’s face it: Cindy, sweet as she is, didn’t have one-tenth the charisma Flo had - Mary was not in Flo’s league either, but she developed after Flo left. I think the story of JMF would have been much happier for all concerned - including the fans - if Flo had stayed. The revolving door syndrome was no myth, many/most fans could look at the Right On cover all day and not see The Supremes. Flo would have been a huge help in that dept. their box office problems, IMO, would not have been so bad so fast.
Again, no one cared who was in the bg, as long as it was assumed it was Real Supremes. The sound meant nothing. Two of their biggest had no Supremes in the bg, used different personnel, and both went platinum. It did matter however when casual fans didn’t recognize members no matter how good they were.
I wonder how other groups' fans feel about us lol
They must think "man these Supremes fans are bananas."
we ARE! and I adored Diana, Mary and Flo and rooted for all three and all their projects during and after the group...but the attacks[[baseless attacks I might add) on the figurehead of 1960's Motown [[yes, HER) are not something I will quietly abide by..plus it gives me the chance to point out that if DR hadn't been DR, Motown Records wouldn't have been Motown Records, at least not on the scale that it reached because of HER!!