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ok while songs like The Tears and Buttered Popcorn often surface in other discussions, we haven't done much where we zoom in on MTS.
what are your thoughts on the album [[obviously taking into account their ages and the period of their career)?
side 1 is quite interesting to examine - could Your Heart be any different in sound and approach versus I Want A guy or Who's loving you?
thoughts on the canned tracks?
are there a few favs that you still always include in playlists?
for me, my fav tracks are You Bring Back and Let Me Go the Right Way. Time Changes Things is a close one too
recently i've played a few more of the "lesser known" tracks like Play A Sad Song and Never Again
I find IWAG pretty challenging to listen to but the arrangement and sound on the alt version is much superior IMO.
I love the album. It's the first Supremes album I bought, and I'm so glad I basically started my collection with it. [[I had previously been gifted the greatest hits album.)
It's not what I would categorize as a great album. Some of the songs are very good, others are...meh. The Barbara era cuts show the group has some rough edges. They weren't any better than many of the girl groups out at the time, although I wouldn't necessarily say they were any worse. Barbara's abilities didn't really lend itself to great harmony singing. Those earliest cuts display Diana in all her nasal glory, and it can sometimes be off putting.
I find that "Who's Loving You" and "I Want A Guy" stick out like sore thumbs. Neither cut shows the ladies in the best light. Mary should have sung "Who's". It just wasn't the right fit for Diana. "I Want A Guy" could have been nice girl group era filler, but I think the backing track doesn't make it easy listening. Had the track been more like what the Marvelettes received when they covered it, it may have been better.
I'm always most impressed with the cuts the group did after Barbara left. "Right Way", "Time", "Sad Song", "Memories", these show a group that is finally finding it's ability to push ahead of the pack. True enough, "Heart Belongs" and "He's 17" are Barbara cuts that have a tighter sound than the other Barbara cuts. My suspicion is that Raynoma Gordy is singing with the ladies on 17. It's possible Ray may have replaced Barbara, and that's why Barbara is doing the speaking part, as a consolation prize.
My favs from the album are "Time Changes Things", "Buttered Popcorn", "Never Again" and "Play A Sad Song". "Never Again" has, what is to me, a very beautiful early Diana Ross lead. Flo gives a silly song about a boy eating popcorn so much life, which is why it's a fan favorite. While I'm not fond of "Baby Don't Go", Mary does a nice job with it. Even then she really had a knack for those pleading girl group ballads, which is why she should have had most of them.
As for the outtakes, I've been mostly pleased with what we've gotten. "After All" is nice and a treat, being it's the only Barbara lead we've heard thus far. "Because I Love Him" is really nice. Diana sounds good and the girls are good on backing vocals. Tightening it up just a bit, it might have made an interesting single. Very of the era. "Save Me A Star" and "Heavenly Father" are both very nice. Florence had such a beautiful voice, but I feel like both of these songs would have been better in the hands of Mary. Both versions of "Too Hot" are nice, but I think Flo would have been the better choice for them. "DJ Shows" I believe had the potential to be a hit. Again, with just the trio, they all brought their A game. "The Tears" and "The Boy That Got Away" are also cool, although the latter I feel like Diana's energy doesn't match the tone of the song. Flo might have been a better choice. I dig all the versions of "Popcorn". Going with the second version was a smart move. Those first "Popcorn" sessions were more rough than what the Supremes should have, and would eventually be, known for.
Really, I think the only song from the outtakes that I don't care for at all is "Hey Baby". I'm not a fan of any of the versions, although, I think it's the last version, the one first released on the Flo Spectrum album, it's listenable. I've always thought the song had a masculine tone to it, better suited to the Contours or the Tempts. And Flo doesn't display much of the polish in her voice that she has on "Star" and "Heavenly". There's none of that polish in her voice on this one. Even "Popcorn" sounds more polished vocal. I would've ditched "Hey Baby" altogether, not even letting them record it.
The MTS sessions display a group trying to find it's way. At the start it's a bit rocky. By the end they're really coming into it. And the rest is history.
see i think Hey Baby is better than Popcorn, which is just too ridiculous of a song. although i get it that songs like Mashed Potato, Da Do ron Ron and the twist all are part of this dance craze phenomenon so perhaps if BP had been a success, the teens would have invented a corresponding dance with it. It's just that i don't think it is a strong spotlight for Flo. the grunts and all just aren't attractive
none of the Flo leads are especially memorable, IMO. and mostly because i think she's doing the wrong songs. Star is too pop for her big voice. she is amazing on the backing vocals for LMGTRW and would have LOVED to hear her let that one rip. You Bring Back could also have been a strong one for Flo to lead.
I might redo the album as:
Your Heart
the Tears
The boy that got away
Time changes things
Heavenly father
he's Seventeen
let me go the right way
Baby don't go
Hey Baby
After all - or if you don't want to highlight Barbara swap in Never Again
You bring back
Play a Sad song
My favourite track is "Play A Sad Song".
Yeah, it was the early 60s. Three out of five songs were ridiculous. I don't think anyone would argue "Popcorn" is a masterpiece. But of the people who love it, it's all about Flo's energy. She brings the song to life. Nobody else in the group could have made such a silly song sound so good. To me, there just isn't anything special about "Hey Baby". I don't care for the track or Flo's vocal. I agree that there isn't anything particularly memorable about "Heavenly" and "Star", but Florence's beautiful voice is on display rather nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Diana killed "Right Way". Perfect example for anyone who really thought Diana couldn't sing, and definitely anyone arguing that she couldn't sing R&B. She rolled right through that way. But no doubt about it, Flo would have ripped that song to shreds.
I love this one too. Each of the ladies' talents is on full display. So interesting to hear how upbeat, sassy, happy they can sound on "Right Way" or "Memories" or "Time", and then sound so sad and dreary on "Sad Song". Such great vocal actresses.Quote:
Originally Posted by 144man
Great point. And this was so early in their career. Of course their talents exploded as time went on. But the girls are definitely displaying exception interpretational skills even at this early stage. Proof that it wasn’t simply learned but pure talentQuote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
See I don’t think BP is all that amazing of a showcase for Flo and my suspicion is that people love it more simply because it is Flo and for such a long time one of the very very few leads we got to hear. I do agree that she gives a playful performance on it but I see Hey Baby as having a relatively similar playful performance. And it’s just a better song. Of course neither are masterpieces lolQuote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
"Buttered Popcorn" was their song that got the most airplay in certain regions, like Philly, Gary, and the Detroit area, until, I'm guessing, "Your Heart Belongs To Me", seeing as "Heart" charted and "Popcorn" didn't. So there were people who dug it in it's own time. As a fan of the song I can say I like it because I like it. It was a rare treat to hear Flo lead, sure, but I can't imagine anyone liking an unlikable song just because the singer singing it was relatively a rarity. To my ears, it's a great vocal. There are moments on "Hey Baby" when she sounds a bit out of tune and it grates on my nerves. I rarely play it, but because of this discussion- as sometimes happens- I'll be forced to listen to all the "Baby" versions and see if my opinion changes at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Are there any songs on these early sessions in which the Andantes were added to beef up and/or smooth out the sound?
I don't think the Andantes make a "Supremes appearance" until 1963. It's rumored they are on "Run, Run, Run", either as replacements or in conjunction. Certainly in 1964 there are instances where the Andantes are present, again as replacements or in conjunction. I believe one or more Andantes are on "Crossroads" with Flo and Mary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21
There's speculation regarding the backing vocals of "He's 17". I hear Florence clearly, but can say I have a hard time making out Mary and especially Barbara. Raynoma produced the song and I'm of the opinion that she is singing with the girls, either along with Barbara or replacing Barbara entirely. Flo and Mary's abilities at harmony are proven. Barbara was always kind of sticking out. Even on "Your Heart Belongs To Me", which is a perfect example of how the quartet stepped their game up together, Barbara is clearly audible in the background. I don't hear a singing voice that sounds remotely like Barb on "He's 17". Maybe an Andante is also on the record, perhaps rather than Raynoma, she just recruited one or more of the A's to round the sound out. The record is definitely unique in the way the background sounds during Barbara's tenure. And it's certainly not just Flo and Mary. We know how they sound together, even during that time, as Barbara is not on "Those DJ Shows".
Wikipedia says the Andantes started at motown around 62. not sure what songs they started on. it lists them on the Marvelettes' Too Hurt To Cry which was released in Nov 63. this times perfectly with Lovelight which was recorded in Oct 63 and released on Halloween.
Raynoma produced He's 17 so i wouldn't be surprised if the backing vocals are, at least in part, the Rayber Voices. Those members were Raynoma, Brian Holland, Robert Bateman, Sonny Sanders, Gwendolyn Murray and Louvain Demps. I don't know if they all always sang together or if the "Rayber Voices" were just different groupings of these and other people.
The backing vocals on He's 17 just sound odd. I wonder if some of the guys were joining in but singing in falsetto along with the women. i don't know that the Sups wouldn't have been on the song - i would guess the girls were joined by some of the above.
What's interesting is when the Andantes were on the Supremes recordings early on it was usually just one or two of them helping out Mary and Flo rather than all 3 of them like on Run Run Run, Lovelight and Stop.
I gotta ask has it been proven that the andantes were on Run or Lovelight? I can hear the guys singing [[HDH or Tops depending on who you ask) but has it been confirmed that the andantes were in those 2
Back in the yahoo group days, Louvain Demps said that Jackie was on those songs. The way she worded it made it seem like only Jackie was there and not herself or Marlene. There's no denying that Flo is on Lovelight, I hear her loud and clear but I can hear Jackie Hicks in there as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackguy69
I’m more inclined to believe that they were augmenting Mary and Flo’s vocals