I agree; I think Diana was some affected by both Flo's and Mary's passing, but for different reasons:
1976: That could have been me
2021: That inevitably will be me
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I don't think Diana is that selfish. No doubt when Flo passed, she, like Mary, probably did let it cross their minds that if they hadn't played the game, they could have ended up like Florence, both financially and finally. I'm sure with Mary's passing there was also some thought to her own mortality, as often happens when people our own age pass away.
But I find it hard to believe that the overwhelming feeling Diana had when Florence and Mary passed away wasn't sadness. Despite the superhuman abilities we often subscribe to her, I believe Diana is prone to all the same emotional stuff the rest of us are. So she surely thought about how things went wrong between herself and Flo and Mary. Maybe she looks back and regrets certain things she said or did. She probably also thought about the good times they had. Remember, Diana can recall Flo and Mary as barely teenagers. That's such an interesting time of life, and for them to have been doing something extraordinary as actively chasing their dreams as singers at such a young age, surely that conjures up a ton of memories that are priceless to her.
If only she would write those memories down and sale them for a price. I'd buy it.:cool:
Diana was, is and always will be stuck in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation when it comes to M and F. This isn't to say that her decisions are always the best. but i honestly do not think she approached the death of either woman with a "what can i do to raise my publicity" as some writers and hateful fans have said [[note i don't think anyone here is really saying that currently).
with Flo's funeral, the gossip rags and books like CHMR tried to position the situation as Diana grandstanding and robbing the spotlight from poor flo even at her own funeral. Were some of her actions [[in hindsight) probably not the best decision - sure. but i honestly do not believe she arrived at the funeral with malicious intent. i believe she was truly grieving the loss of a person that had been a very close friend while growing up AND someone she had shared an incredible situation with professionally.
with mary's passing, again the same thing. if Diana had written sonnets and hours-long eulogies, people would have second guessed her integrity. if she kept it private, people would have hounded her for being cold and ignoring another person who, like flo, shared so much of her formative years. Do i think [[again in hindsight) could she have done some things differently? yes. but again, i do not believe she was like "good - mary's gone that bitch, at least i don't have to worry about more bad publicity from her" that's just not possible in my mind
No, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm certain Diana Ross isn't stone and has "feels" like everyone else. I in no way was trying to diss DR. At least in this post. ;)
My own personal thoughts are that I figured Mary would just live forever. I'll bet a lot of fans thought that way too, maybe even Diana. I think I once said it would be BG's passing that eventually would bring Diana and Mary back together, if only in the same room. I'm so glad there were a few opportunities towards the end that they were at least photographed together, smiling. Of course there will be those that pick apart how many teeth Diana was actually showing and ask for a definition of "smiling". Regardless, they looked happy to me.
I can’t resist but to me, the last picture of the two seemed like Mary going “caught you finally” and Diana looked like she drank some milk after lemon being squeezed in her mouth.
But I will also say that in all the Motown get togethers, like Martha’s star, the Motown luminaries certainly seem to love and care for each other and there is none of the questioning and parsing the real fans do.
Surely it can’t be the fans reading too much in to too little??!!
Fans reading too much into something re: anything Supremes related?!!! Perish the thought!
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But here is one where Diana looks thrilled and happy
Mary was so vivacious. She oozed life of the party. Here we are three years later and it still doesn't seem real. Whenever I watch an old Supremes performance, it seems so weird to think that the Mary in those videos is gone. Lord help me if anything ever happens to Diana. My prayer is that she keeps rockin until at least 100.
It's a comfort to me that in the end, Diana and Mary were communicating. Someone said they would email each other, while someone else recalls Mary texting Diana about concert tickets for someone. For Mary to have Diana's email and phone number suggests that whatever bad blood had existed, they did what they always did: come back together.
And of course you know folks are going to pick apart every little bit of them. Diana has that same "looks like it hurts" smile on her face in every smiling photograph I've seen of her from the past 20 years, even with her kids. She would have had the same smile on her face whether Mary was in the photographs or not. But Mary was in the photos, so why not say Diana looks uncomfortable? It makes for a better story than the one where all is well, apparently.
Not a criticism by any means, but i think Diana has always been totally immersed in her own family to have spent much time grieving over Mary Wilson. The two women had not been friends for many years, who were at the end of the day work colleagues from over fifty years ago.
With Flo i would imagine it was the shock of her passing at such a young age, with the funeral being almost a precursor to Motown 25.
Totally valid, for the ETH I did on Ross I had a guy lined up who was an intern at RCA. He sat in on a meeting with her and execs when they were about to release the Eaten Alive lp I believe it was. I wanted him on the show so badly but he bowed out. He was no longer in the business and didn't want to have blow back, which I understood. I can say it was her ruthlessness that sidetracked her RCA career and when she went limping back to Berry Gordy it was too late, the damage was permanent. RCA lost their ARSES on Diana Ross.
I admit when Mary passed I scrutinized Diana's reaction and announcements. I am sure she felt sadness of the loss of a childhood friend and former work colleague, after all they conquered quite a bit together. Mary passed during Covid and all of our mindsets were on family and life. Diana has always been focused on her family. I still know that despite not being close for many years and for the public disagreements that she felt like any of us would-shock, deep sadness and remembering all of the happy good times.
I still think Motown should have recognized in Mary they would have a balladeer. They didn't owe her anything but they missed the boat. The Hal Davis LP was not one that played to her strengths. Her follow ups that they declined were much better and You Dance My Heart Around The Stars and Love Talk had real potential to hit. That would have carved her solo career. Save Me was a better up-tempo sound than the disco of Red Hot but Green River reminded me of Red Hot. Still, besides Mary Motown squandered many talented female artists-Gladys Knight, Martha Reeves, Jean Terrell, Scherrie Payne, Susaye Greene among others. I do wonder if being an Ex-Supreme was a hindrance since there was a sound expected as a solo to have that same group sound which Mary didn't have. By the time she left Motown, the industry had passed on the Supremes and wondered if Mary was good why didn't Motown still have her or use her properly.
I understand your sentiment, but I also think Diana isn't so oblivious that she thought of Mary as simply a "work colleague from over 50 years ago". You can't tell me every time she hits the stage with her Supremes Medley that Mary and Flo don't cross her mind, if only for a brief second.
I can see the possibility that Diana may have a thought or two of Mary and also Cindy and Florence when she does a Supremes song but I think she may be comfortable feeling that all of them and her are also the authors of their own misfortunes or fortunes. Diana might be comforted by the fact she worked her butt off and also got her butt worked off by Berry and that she helped all three Supremes during their lives as well as provided opportunities to Mary and Cindy.
Diana doesn’t do much looking back and I think she said Florence was her own worst enemy.
I think we’ve answered that it wasn’t that Motown didn’t like Mary - but her voice, her work ethic, her management skills, her choice of partners and managers just didn’t mesh up for major musical success. But she certainly was still a success - as a Supreme, as an author, as an activist for other artists, as an inspirational speaker.
I don't even think it's that deep. I'm sure, like most of us when someone we know passes away, Diana looked back over her relationship with Florence and then Mary in totality, the good and the bad. I hardly think that every time she thinks of Flo or Mary that she thinks deeply about their lives and who authored what and who was their own worst enemy, which, btw, can be applied to Diana just as easily as it can be for the rest of us, as we are often our own worst enemies. I'm sure Flo and Mary cross Diana's mind when she sings one of their songs, or hears a song that reminds her of either of them, or runs into someone they all used to know, or sees someone who has a resemblance to either woman. Diana Ross is a human being no different than the rest of us, minus the hit songs. She do all the same stuff we do when it comes to the passing of loved ones.
Diana commenting that Flo was her own worst enemy revealed a complete lack of understanding of someone suffering mental health problems. I would hope that she has since revised that opinion considering she experienced her own problems with mental health and alcohol addiction.
The fact Mary felt she needed a break around the time of “Love Child” in 1968 is not a concrete reflection of her work ethic. She was always the consummate professional as a Supreme, working her butt off over the years while touring as a solo act. It’s worth noting that sometimes hard work alone is not enough, and you need some element of luck to help you on your way.
Had Mary been gifted a little more of that, particularly regarding record companies who’s to say what might have been.
I agree that Diana shouldn't have said that about Flo especially with Diana knowing about what Flo went through with the rape, etc.
And do you guys really think they were going to use Mary on "Love Child"? I just find that one hard to believe considering she hadn't been on single since "Reflections", over a year prior. I'm kinda glad she did take a vacation if that's the case though because that is my favorite of the backgrounds that the Andantes did.
i agree. even if mary HAD been in town, it's highly debatable that they'd have bothered to use her and Cindy. they were barely on half of the recordings at this time
and the issue of Mary's worth ethic isn't solely based on her deciding to go on vacation in fall 68. it's the supposed notion that she wasn't pushing herself to go that extra mile. she was enjoying herself, partying, going out every night, not dedicating tons of time to honing her craft. it's also a matter of perspective. mary was being a typical 22 year old - i'm sure most of us were going out and partying with friends at this age and not focusing 100% of your time on work. but from the perspective of Berry and seeing what Diana was doing, there's the conflict. Berry even mentions in his book how Diana DIDN'T want to go out because she wanted to preserve her voice, even though she too was a young girl and might have liked socializing. every time diana did something like really reinforced her 100% total commitment to her work, berry seems to have double down even more on his side.
and it just makes mary's actions look even less dedicated to her work.
Perhaps if BG had taken just a little more interest in Mary’s potential as opposed to being totally focussed on Diana alone she might have felt a little more motivated.
She was also probably less inclined to spend those nights resting her voice as she actually got to do very little singing away from background.
For one who was supposedly less dedicated to her work, Mary always shined onstage, pushing Diana to work just that little bit harder. A fact Diana herself has admitted to.
and i don't think M and F were being excessively lazy or negligent to their careers. they were normal 22 year olds. they were wanting what is today called work life balance. it's just that in comparison to D, it was quite a difference.
Berry even mentioned the argument that you're making - that just singing ooohs and ahhhs didn't require them to rest and all. totally agree. i think though the view from Berry was neither of them were overly exertive in their quest to sing something OTHER than ooohs and ahhhs. now this is probably very much dependent on the person's perspective. M and F would probably argue they DID push to do more. whereas B's POV would be they didn't. again it's probably true that, compared to Diana's over the top push to lead and sing and dance and do everything, anyone else's approach to things would pale. If D had been pushed in to the background like M and F, perhaps she would have complained 500 times while M and F complained 10 times.
again IMO it's all about the perspective. i'm not saying that M and F were lazy or didn't push for things. they were, again, only 22 and so being able to self-guide their careers and motown and push for things and all is probably unrealistic. but the problem is, that's the side Berry was on. that's what he truly responded to. his whole family was over achievers - highly motivated, everyone doing 10,000 things at the same time, highly successful, never letting anything stop them.
The point being, none of us were there so how could we possibly know if they weren’t being overly exertive in their quest to be given something more than oohs and ahhs to sing.
For all we know Flo and Mary may have been asking every day before being threatened with put and shut up or else.
It’s all pie in the sky surmising.
She clearly had depression. Both Diana and Mary have said she would blow up on them about something then minutes later she'd be fine again as if nothing happened.
And they both have alluded that Flo's moods were contagious. When she was happy, everyone else was happy. When she was unhappy, everyone else was unhappy too.
of course all of this is caveated with a big fat "we don't really know." it's all speculation, for the most part. trying to make heads or tails of how things played out. Some of it is based on what has been reported in the various books - for instance multiple books have cited that some of the Artistic Dev staff felt M and F weren't working as hard as they should. Mary addresses this herself in Dreamgirl. so using this as a bit of a guide, i've tried to speculate what the broader story is. but it's just that - speculation.
I don't think it would've mattered to BG if Flo and Mary were as "dedicated" [[and I use that term for lack of a better one) as Diana. He zeroed in on Diana at a certain point because she had that over the top "it" factor. The Supremes worked because all three had an "it" factor. The image, the personality, the chemistry, they all had to have "it" to do what they did. But make no mistake about it, Diana had a certain extra thing that made her captivating and Gordy recognized that. It wasn't just talent, it was the total package, and he knew he had that in Diana.
I don't know if he was ever impressed with Mary's singing. Others have been, including Eddie Holland, just like some weren't impressed with Diana's singing, or Flo's. Gordy obviously felt Flo had a certain something, judging by giving her tunes he had written in the early days, including giving her the second single. He also allowed her lead on "People" to remain in the act for two or so years, something Mary never got until her incessant singing of "Can't Take My Eyes Off Of You" much later. So he obviously felt Flo had the chops. But Gordy was definitely overly impressed with Diana's uniqueness and for Gordy that was an asset in his quest for the BIG TIME.
Sup is right, Mary does make mention that TPTB at Motown apparently made it known that they thought Flo and Mary were less dedicated than Diana. I don't think they were less dedicated. They had a different workload than Diana had. Once Operation Copa was put into place, which is really the start of taking the Supremes from girl group to super group, Diana was given nearly all the leads and nearly all of the dialogue. She had a lot on her plate, given to her by Motown. Gordy was in her ear, championing her every step of the way. He lit a fire under her. Had Gordy not encouraged Diana to take it all, she probably would have been more likely to hold back. Flo and Mary didn't have a Gordy telling them they could do anything, and that is never good for morale, when one person is getting the "atta girl" and the other two are being told to get out of the way.
Gordy was never going to give Flo and Mary much more than he did, no matter how hard they worked. Maybe they could have gotten a little more had they demanded more. We don't know that they did or didn't, but I suspect they didn't demand more because, until things really got crazy behind the scenes, none of them, including Flo, wanted to rock the boat much. They enjoyed the money and the new homes and the cars and the jet setting lifestyle. Who wants to go back to the projects over some "oohs" and "ahhs"?:D
I would imagine when you have the owner of a record company in your corner all the way, it would inspire you to go that extra mile. Flo and Mary never experienced that, making it impossible to gage the impact it might have had on their mindset.
As regards Diana, it was certainly her uniqueness that swung things her way. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Diana did what Diana was supposed to do. Can't fault her for the work she put in. But you're right, with the big guy in her corner [[and eventually in her bed...or was it his bed?) she knew the sky was the limit. Flo and Mary needed that, minus the guy in the bed thing.:p
Oh man, can you imagine how much worst the Supremes story would have gotten if Gordy had been sleeping with all three Supremes? [[And who could blame him, as all three were oober sexy, and if they were willing, consenting adults, I mean...:cool:) I suspect blood may have been shed. Lol
Dreamgirls used the storyline that Effie and Curtis were a thing before he chose Deena. As for real life, thankfully Berry was not also involved with Flo and Mary.
Diana and Mary both wrote that Flo was unpredictable. Mary may have wrote about some difficulties with working alongside Diana, too, but she always spoke of how hard Diana worked. Diana also wrote that Mary was a hard worker. Diana would know if Mary was a slouch or she would have left that phrase out.
Diana was amazing and unique and a hard worker but Gordy did only have her as a one track mind, not only did Flo and Mary not enter into the picture but that one track caused other female artists to be put on the backburner. Funny, male artists that were different could flourish-Smokey, Marvin, the Jackson 5, the Temptations, the Four Tops, et al. I guess misogyny and his one track Diana mind couldn't help the other females.
I still say Motown could have worked with Mary so that she could have been their balladeer. She had the voice, looks and desire. Releasing Red Hot and dropping her wasn't all just to get her to drop a lawsuit. They could have done more. I know she wasn't the all-consuming drive of Diana but she was still pushing it all the way up until she passed. It just seemed to be more to the story-like was it a personality thing? Did they not approve of her lifestyle? Was she a diva and problematic? I guess we can only speculate. Some write here that she just didn't have the talent to make it [[mainly because she wasn't Diana Ross) and others feel she was divine. The truth lays somewhere in between but I don't see a resolution on this page.
by 1979 Mary was in some really troubled time. there was a lot of cocaine, the whole Pedro mess as her manager. the Supremes had been total chaos from 74 - 77 and there was that lingering cloud. and finally her lawsuit basically forever tarnished her in Berry's eyes - at least whatever was left to tarnish. this was essentially sacrilege. her solo album and single sold very poorly. Plus you had this legacy of the company, for whatever reason, just not being interested in her voice. if there had been some interest in her voice, MAYBE they would have overlooked the drugs and the idiot manager. but given all the baggage there was never any hope
My goodness, she now sounds an out of control drug addict, who veered from one disaster to another lol.
Given Motown’s total indifference, Pedro probably seemed to be her only port in a storm. Towards the end Mary was desperately fighting for use of the name Supremes, something many felt she deserved, She foolishly was convinced to drop that lawsuit with promises from BG and Motown of career investment and support. It was of course all a lie, being gifted a weak album that never played to her strengths, then unceremoniously shown the door. Nice.
It wasn't "foolish" of Mary to drop the lawsuit, she really had no choice. Motown bled her dry. This was a mega-company with in house attorneys and Mary had to spend most of what she made on her legal defense. By the time all of this was settled the poor woman went from a modest mansion in an upscale part of Beverly Hills to a small apartment. She had lost virtually everything. Accepting the Motown deal, though not the wisest choice, was really the only one she had.
It’s true that the drawn out lawsuit case had left her in financial difficulty. It really was a massive shame, as i think had Mary the funds to see it through to conclusion she might well have won.
Allowing for the fact that record companies are not a charity, it was a shoddy way to treat an ex member of a group that had been integral to the labels success.
Kind of reminds me of James Jamerson sitting up in the gods at Motown 25, having had to purchase his own ticket. Hmmm.
If all Mary got were “promises of career involvement and support”, then she must have been desperate and broke as Bayou suggests or again making stupid, uninformed choices.
She should have had a written settlement agreement setting out specifics that would occur in return for the end of the law suit.
What was she expecting? Diana to appear at the Ritz? Berry to be in tow? An album? Billboard and Cashbox ads? How many dud albums and singles was Motown expected to release when the sales for the first one were 4000 copies? Were they supposed to issue 5 albums?
That just wasn’t going to happen no matter what label you were on and Mary had no other takers/offers
In hindsight, she most probably was being naive in thinking BG would remain true to his promises of career involvement and support, but Mary always did veer towards the sentimental in thinking Motown remained a family.
Perhaps there was a written settlement after the lawsuit ended, but clearly not one that could protect her from a record company that wanted rid asap.
By 1979 the label would have had a clear indication of where her vocal strengths lay, making it a huge head scratcher as to why they chose disco. She might have rebounded with material better suited to her voice but was never given the chance. That ill-conceived first album was all the company ever intended before showing her the door.
How many flops did the company release on the Supremes release before “Lovelight”. One wouldn’t think such a thing possible, no matter what label you were on. Hmmm.
It surprises me that Motown wasn't all that keen about Mary's recordings with Gus Dudgeon. I know they weren't thrilled she was using an outside producer and returned the tapes back to her when she was released from the label, but how could they not hear the potential in "Love Talk" and "Save Me?" Unless they just wanted to get rid of her all together and didn't care if the tracks were good or not, there was a lot promise there. Dudgeon found the right formula that showcased Mary's voice. It was certainly 1000% better than her entire first album. If Mary was ever going to have a hit song, it was with these tracks. What a shame Motown didn't believe them to give her at least another chance. Hell, they kept on Charlene and she's got one of the dullest voices ever.
I totally agree, which is why I posed this inquiry to begin with. The Dudgeon songs were great-although I was less fond of Green River-that surely the quality of You Dance My Heart Around the Stars, Love Talk and Save Me surely spoke for themselves. I wasn't thrilled with her first album but I did think that some songs like I love a Warm Summer Night, Pick Up The Pieces and Midnight Dancer were decent enough.
Like I had said, you couldn't have three people in the Supremes all sound like Diana Ross, that is so shortsighted. Imagine if Diana was singing with Jean and Susaye? People are so critical of Mary's voice, but she had the best tone and a terrific warm sound. Her second album truly could have made some headway since she was no longer singing disco songs like her first one. You were right, Motown kept alot of people with voices that weren't great.
agree - these are really mary at her peak. the songs were extremely commercial and, with a bit of promotion, could have been hits. these are very early 80s in their sound and quite contemporary. and hailing this as the [[almost) launch of a post-Supreme career. easy PR and publicity around this. and i'm sure Diana would have commented on them or done something to acknowledge them.