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On a recent thread it was posted that this song was meant to be Diana’s first solo record. I thought that has been debunked and it was supposed to be the Supremes finale all along and Diana’s was perhaps going to be These Things Will Keep me loving you. What’s the real deal?
The real deal is "Someday, We'll Be Together" which was intended to be an album track for Jr. Walker & The Allstars. That's why the track with the backing vocals as they were, were cut for Jr. Walker. After this was all done out in L.A. the story goes off the rails in several different directions with the most popular one being that Mr. Gordy had thought of using it as a song on Diana Ross' debut album [[maybe issue it as a single) when Shelly Berger suggested that it would make a great "Farewell" song for the Supremes. Berry liked that idea as well as he needed to get one more hit on the group before Xing out Ross from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by luke
Thanks Marv. Did Jr ever get a version released?
You're welcome, Luke. I'm not sure if he did. I know Johnny Bristol was the main producer working with Jr. Walker & the Allstars during that period. He also was the co-writer of "Someday......" which is how it was going to end up on Jr's album. It was not originally intended for the Supremes, Diana Ross or whatever which is why NONE of them are on the original track. Diane recorded a lead vocal along with Johnny Bristol later.Quote:
Originally Posted by luke
Makes sense. Track was recorded without Cindy and Mary because it was not intended for the Supremes [[I will always consider it a Supremes song) Was there also a sense-able reason why Cindy and Mary were not on the Love Child track? [[another favorite song of mine)Quote:
Originally Posted by marv2
I think I heard the producers preferred the Andantes sound for it. I wonder if there is a track with the Supremes on as opposed to the Andantes?
In "Dream Girl," Mary says that she was about to embark on a much-needed vacation when Gordy insisted she cancel it and be available to record "Love Child." According to Mary, she felt she needed the vacation more so skipped the session. Not sure why they couldn't have included Cindy, but that's what I remember from the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by milven
The Andantes are not on this track. Word has it that the background singers are Merry Clayton, Patrice Holloway, Julia Waters and Maxine Waters.Quote:
Originally Posted by jobeterob
You're right Sansradio. The Andantes are not on that recording, so whatever Jobeterob heard it must have come from inside his own head.Quote:
Originally Posted by sansradio
Well one reason for Cindy not being used is because she and Mary had already moved to LA by that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenneth
the story about Mary going on vacation is, from all accounts I read, correct. She stated that she didn't know there was a specific recording date scheduled just yet and that Berry only said that they were working on a hot new record and she shouldn't leave. She said that she wasn't needed for the writing of the song and so didn't feel she needed to hang around. I'm assuming she believed that once she was home they could quickly do the recording session but Berry and team didn't waitQuote:
Originally Posted by milven
one could easily hypothesize though that even if she was obediently sitting and waiting in Detroit that she may not have been at the recording session. C and M were barely on half of the DRATS tracks and it has been argued that even some of the duet work includes additional session vocalists. Don't know if this means M and C aren't also there but clearly the producers during these years were accustomed to just cranking out the backing vocals using the Andantes. Also lots of tracks were being shifted between one group and another. The producer might have intended something for the Marvelettes or for Jimmy Ruffin or Supremes or whomever. they'd finish up the instrumental track and maybe the bg vocals. they get whichever group or lead singer to come in and lay down the lead.
my understanding is that the reason so many producers worked with the A's is that 1) they were always there in the studios so were always ready and 2) the girls had amazing skills at self-producing. meaning they could come up with their harmonies and how the backing vocals should go without lots of direction from the producers. This made for faster and easier completion of the vocal tracksQuote:
Originally Posted by kenneth
some people have tried to say that producers felts C and M weren't as good of singers or some other nonsense. That's an offensive thing to say and clearly not true. if you listen to songs they are on, the harmonies are gorgeous. Certainly if M and C couldn't sing well or sing well together, they'd NEVER be out on the road singing live together. in the studio you can redo things and make adjustments. Live - you're out there and gotta do it right
I think the reason the As are on so much content for the Supremes is that it simply allowed M and C to remain on the concert circuit and reduced travel expenses by not having to fly them to Detroit or another city with a quality studio. And it allowed for the recording production schedule to continue without delay
there's a very interesting story from Deke in the MR&TV 50th Anniv cd set where he talks about the problems with I Can't Dance To That Music. he recorded it first in one key and got lead and bg vocals done. Then QC said to change the key so he did and re-recorded the As and Martha. Then QC said - sorry don't like the new key so switch it back. At that point he couldn't find the original lead tapes and was desperate to get Martha back in the studio. however he couldn't get travel budget approved to either fly her to him or him to her. So he had to try and come up with a solution or the window to get the release would close. he did that thing with Syreeta and tried to get it to work but never really did.
So Deke couldn't even get 1 round trip airfare approved. imagine producers trying to get 2 roundtrips for M and C for every recording session.
Makes me wonder with whom were M & C remaining on the concert circuit while Diana was in the studio recording the leads to the Supremes' songsQuote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
It seems like it was mainly an economic decision. Even though they would still need Diane in the studio recording the leads, the producers saved time and money by having the backgrounds ready to go, still much easier than coordinating teaching the backgrounds and harmonies to the "real" singers.Quote:
Originally Posted by milven
I've not been a fan of this practice ever since I learned about it. I think the group's songs lost a lot of distinction without the contributions of Mary and Cindy. I know the Andantes are great singers but so often to me, especially on the Supremes' tracks, the backgrounds just sound too good, sanitized almost.
exactly the girls didn't exactly perform EVERY day and night. but they would tour and maybe have a day or two before the next gig. they certainly weren't going to fly back and forth home
for instance in Sept 69, they did:
9/27 U Mass Amherst
9/28 Memorial Gym U of Maine
9/29 meehan Auditorium Providence RI
10/3 Boston College
10/5 Hartford Conn
in theory Diana could have been flown out to do recording work on 9/30 and then return to the tour circuit in time for the 10/3 gig.
I think the economic theory is good, but I don't buy it. It doesn't explain why the male counterpart to the Andantes [[Perhaps the Originals, maybe the Spinners) were not utilized barely a fraction to replace the Tempts and Tops. How busy were the Marvelettes in the late 60s that they needed to be flown in for studio time? The overuse of the Andantes replacing female groups at Motown is quite possibly the weirdest chapter in the label's history. I'm with Kenneth, I am not a fan of this practice, even though I mostly prefer the sound of the Andantes to Mary and Cindy.
Regarding Mary and Cindy not on "Love Child", I've said before and I'll say it again: either Mary's story in Dreamgirl was made up, or it was another one of Gordy's mind games. Mary and Cindy were probably on maybe half of the DRATS recordings up to that point, and neither were on the previous single releases in 1968. If they weren't necessary for "Forever" or "Some Things", why "Love Child"? And if they were intended for "Love Child", why then weren't they present for the non duet singles released afterwards? For me the answer is easy: there was never an intention to have Mary and Cindy on "Love Child". So either Mary drummed this story up for dramatic purposes or Gordy wanted to control Mary into doing what he wanted her to do [[stay put) and hoped that teasing her with a carrot would do the trick.
Regarding Mary and Cindy's sound: I do think the Andantes served more of a purpose as Supremes than they did as Marvelettes or Vandellas. What I mean by that is, prior to those last two years of the sixties, the Andantes had been replacing the Marvelettes and Vandellas on singles for years. [[Hell, even the Tops managed to get onto a major Martha and Vandellas hit record without any Vandella in earshot!) Meanwhile, once the Supremes' hit streak got rolling with Florence, only Flo had ever been replaced by one Andante on two hits [[one of which was released after she was no longer in the group), and were joined [[or added to) by one or more Andantes for two others. It wasn't until Flo's exit that Mary and Cindy were exclusively replaced by the Andantes [[in addition to the Blackberries and the Waters) for singles. I've theorized that some of this might have had to do with the difference in sound between Cindy and Flo.
While I do believe that Mary and Cindy had a beautiful sound, it was very different than what the public was used to. With Flo the Supremes background vocals usually contained an edge that just wasn't present when Cindy joined. With Cindy the sound was sweeter. With Flo the sound was more energetic and robust. Mary and Cindy could have never rocked the background of "You Keep Me Hangin On" the way Mary and Flo did. Cindy really didn't have it in her, IMO. I've often wondered if Motown felt the singles needed what Cindy couldn't provide. The Andantes were very Flo and Mary like. If the producers had insisted that Diana join Flo and Mary on the background of their recordings from 1965-1967, IMO they could've given the Andantes a run for their money. But the Andantes usually had three voices to Mary and Flo's two. Three can do what two cannot. And when that two is Mary and Cindy, there isn't a lot to do.
The Supremes contracts prohibited Motown from replacing group members on recordings if they were available and willing to record. By doing what Motown did in the late sixties, they were, not honoring their part of the contracts. This was in Mary Wilson's 1978 lawsuit. What she stated in her book [[about "Love Child", among other specific recordings after 1967, came directly from the discovery phase of that lawsuit.
It’s a little hard to picture Diana just saying ok and flying back and forth to record when they were on the road. Do we know that this is actually what happened? She doesn’t have a history of being the most accommodating person in the world. Maybe all of this did happen but it certainly was disrespectful to the other Supremes and the fans. Did the Beatles and Shirelles have this happen? The Supremes were making a ton of money for Motown and I imagine most of the cities they were in had recording studios.
In the case of this particular record, I would say no! The music track and background vocals were already recorded by the time Johnny Bristol went into the studio with Diana Ross. I understand that her lead vocals may have been laid down in a L.A. studio. I do know that the Supremes sometimes recorded their vocals at studios in various cities where they were performing. For instance, the vocals for "Stoned Love" were recorded in New York City.Quote:
Originally Posted by luke
during the 60s when did she EVER not do specifically what Gordy asked of her?Quote:
Originally Posted by luke
and remember she didn't always have to fly back to Detroit. in the example i gave while they were in New England, perhaps the producer flew into NYC and Diana trained down or flew down and they rented studio space there.
part of it is chauvinism. but also part of it is just traditional music arrangement. it's more common to have female backing vocal parts than male, especially in a more r&b genre. now of course this isn't absolute and i'm not making any ridiculous claims saying male voices aren't or shouldn't be used. but by and large, female vocal accompaniment is more common than male.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
And Ran - you need to go review your Sup songs and history. the A's are all over material during the DFM era. Merry Christmas, CW&P, Lovelight, Run Run Run, Any Girl In Love, There's a place for us, Broadway To Hollywood, Disney tracks, There's no stopping us now, Going down third time, etc etc etc
now would M and C have been on LC had both been literally sitting right there in the Hitsville lobby? who knows. Quite possible. I swear to my hearing i think they AND the A's are on How Long Evening Train. it's often hard to break the voices apart. maybe they would have be there and the As too. the high AAAAAAAAAA is not something either could have done so probably would have had the As in some way.
Was it ever proven that the andantes were on lovelight or run run run
oop sorry Ran - i think i misinterpreted your post. I didn't catch you were talking about singles as opposed to songs in generalQuote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
:o
They were not on those records. I know that by listening to them, but several times over the years, Eddie Holland, Brian Holland, Mary Wilson, Lawrence Payton, and even Diana Ross have stated that HDH and the Four Tops were backing them up on those songs.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackguy69
The Andantes: The Girl Group Left Behind
The hidden figures of Hitsville sang on some of Motown's biggest hits
by Touré, AARP The Magazine, November 28, 2018 | Comments: 16
Donaldson Collection/Michael Ochs Archives/Getty Images
From left: Jacqueline Hicks, Marlene Barrow and Louvain Demps of the Andantes, in 1962.
En español | Can she sing? Marlene Barrow and Jackie Hicks sounded downright skeptical. It was the summer of 1961, and the young women — then 19 and 21 years old, respectively — were at the Motown recording studio on West Grand Boulevard in Detroit. Barrow, tall and slender, and Hicks, bubbly and full-figured, had grown up singing in the choir of the Hartford Avenue Baptist Church. They had been to the Motown studio before, had laid down some backup vocals at the fledgling label as two-thirds of a trio, but then the high soprano in their group had quit suddenly, and Barrow and Hicks weren’t too interested in working without her.
A studio staffer, thinking of a young soprano in the studio’s choral ensemble, made a suggestion: “We’ve got a girl in here who can sing.”
Barrow and Hicks had the same question. “Can she sing?”
“Oh, yeah” came the reply. “She can sing.”
More than 50 years later, no one remembers which song the three worked on that day, but the new girl, Louvain Demps — a reserved Catholic woman of 23 — still remembers how it went. “We just seemed to click right away,” she says.
“First time,” Hicks adds. “First song, perfect blend.”
That’s how Louvain Demps joined the Andantes, which would become perhaps the most important singing group you’ve probably never heard of. The trio sang background on more than 20,000 Motown songs, upward of 90 percent of the company’s output before its 1972 move to Los Angeles. Theirs are the voices you can hear responding to Mary Wells in her 1964 hit “My Guy” [[“What you say? Tell me more — ”). They testified on Marvin Gaye’s “I Heard It Through the Grapevine.” And, significantly, they provided the oohs and ahs and baby-babies — the depth and sweetness on countless tracks where their separate voices can’t even be picked out, except maybe by the women themselves. To this day, Hicks says, she hears herself on the radio every single day.
The Andantes’ perfect blend was critical to the Motown sound, part of the secret seasoning that listeners could hear only on that label. These women, unsung in so many ways, were a key reason so many people loved Motown music. Yet most Motown fans still don’t know the Andantes’ story.
Dustin Cohen
Louvain Demps [[left) and Jacqueline Hicks in 2018.
Today, Hicks, 79, and Demps, 80, have returned to their old workplace, walking around the popular museum built on the site of the famed Hitsville U.S.A. buildings. They remind me that their friend Marlene Barrow, the beloved peacemaker in the trio, whose married name was Barrow-Tate, died in 2015, at age 73, so the group is now incomplete.
Hicks, the Andantes’ alto, is wearing a green pantsuit with matching socks set off by pink sneakers. On first meeting, she seems serious, but that’s only because she hasn’t yet revealed the side of herself that marked her as the group’s prankster, an identity she still seems to take pride in.
During one recording session long ago, Demps recalls, she was having a minor issue with her part, and Hicks was holding what she thought was an empty water cup.
“I told her, ‘I’m going to throw this water in your face if you don’t get the song right,’ ” says Hicks, picking up the story. “She just looked at me. So I said, ‘Boop,’ ” she says, as she pantomimes thrusting a cup forward. “There was water in the cup. It was just running down her face. I was shocked!”
Demps laughs, adding, “And I was wet.”
“Yeah, you were,” Hicks responds. “Hey, one of these days I hope you forget that story.”
That’s not likely. Demps is the historian of the group — the one who remembers who said what to whom, most everything that happened to them in Studio A.
She speaks in a high, breathy voice — Demps is the first soprano, after all — and has a sweet, delicate manner. She seems to end every sentence with a big smile, no matter what she’s saying. That’s true even when she’s talking about the loss of second soprano Barrow-Tate, their lifelong friend.
“Marlene was a jewel ... Jackie was funny ... and I was real quiet.
—Louvain Demps
Marlene was the one who would always patch things up — the one that would say, ‘Don’t worry about it — it’s going to be OK.’ I really loved her,” Demps says.
When Motown stars and songwriters try to describe the musical debt they owe to the Andantes, they get downright religious. “They could sing together like angels,” says Martha Reeves, lead singer of Martha and the Vandellas. Ivy Jo Hunter, who wrote songs for Marvin Gaye, the Spinners, and Gladys Knight & the Pips, says, “It was a heavenly gift that they had. It’s something that you really can’t manufacture.” Mickey Stevenson, Motown’s first A&R man, describes their talent as a “gift that’s given by God.”
This reference to divinity is no coincidence. In the classic sound of the African American church, the interplay between a lead singer and the rest of the choir — the call and response — creates a powerful structure that has tremendous emotional resonance. Motown’s arrangers built on that structure, which originated in West Africa and is found in many genres of African American music. Unlike in the white pop recordings of the same era, background vocalists at Motown didn’t just harmonize on a song’s choruses; they created a back-and-forth with the whole melody that deepened the listening experience. Berry Gordy may have sought to present a safe, apolitical version of his performers to appeal to a crossover audience, but he couldn’t take the church out of their voices.
The Andantes sang on “Baby I Need Your Loving” by the Four Tops, “Love Child” by Diana Ross and the Supremes, “For Once in My Life” by Stevie Wonder, and countless other classics. “They were on every song,” Stevenson says. “All the ones that were hits.” In fact, the group was so critical to Motown’s sound that if they weren’t available, Stevenson would stop the session. “If one of them wasn’t feeling well, we would hold that tune until she felt better. I couldn’t have done it without them.”
Like the label’s house band, known as the Funk Brothers, whose distinctive grooves were always heard but never credited on early Motown records, the Andantes provided anonymous support for the label’s biggest stars.
For years, the three young women practically lived at the studio, called upon to record something new almost every day. “They gave us a cozy office upstairs, where we would stay overnight if we needed to,” Demps recalls. Eventually, they were paid upward of $10 an hour — it was considered good money.
“We were family,” Smokey Robinson says. “We were kids growing up there together. And the Andantes were part of that family.” Robinson used the women on many of the thousands of songs he wrote and produced, including “My Guy” for Mary Wells and “My Girl” for the Temptations. “The Andantes were three of the greatest singers ever in life,” he emphasizes. “Any one of them could have been a lead singer or solo artist.”
The writer-producer Lamont Dozier used their voices to “fill in the lead singer’s parts and give the harmony more substance. If I had some very intricate background parts and the harmonies didn’t have the sound that I wanted, I would tell the famous singers, ‘It’s OK — we’ll fix it in the mix.’ They would take a break, and I’d have the Andantes come in the back door,” he notes, laughing. “We liked to call them the cleanup girls. They could always come in and fix whatever we couldn’t fix with the big acts.”
Like family
Both Hicks and Demps say that despite the hard work and lack of public recognition, Motown was a loving atmosphere where almost everyone treated them with great respect. Did they sense any resentment from stars such as Diana Ross, about being added to their tracks? Sometimes there was a little ill feelings,” Hicks allows. “But hey, it was what it was. It wasn’t our choice.” Producers loved the Andantes because they created their own arrangements on the spot — no easy thing. “They could walk in that studio and lay that stuff down in five or 10 minutes,” Stevenson says. “If you had anybody else, it would take you a few hours.”
Demps wanted the Andantes to have their shot as featured recording artists, but it never seemed to come. Whenever the young women asked Motown staff about it, Barrow once recalled, they would be told to have patience. Maybe due to their persistence, the Andantes did record one single at Motown under their own name: the 1964 jump tune “[[Like a) Nightmare.” But they were never sent through Motown’s storied artist-development program to craft a stage presence, and when the single received no promotion, it quickly vanished from view.
Why didn’t Motown founder Berry Gordy ever try to make the Andantes stars? Was it because they were a few years older than the label’s higher-profile girl groups? Was it because, as young mothers by then, both Barrow and Demps would have had difficulty going out on tour? Perhaps. But according to journalist Adam White, author of Motown: The Sound of Young America, there was also a business case to be made for keeping the Andantes under wraps. “Berry Gordy was very protective of what he had,” White says. “He didn’t want the names of the musicians to be out there so they could get offers that might tempt them to leave.”
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Jacqueline Hicks hadn’t planned to be a professional singer. Neither had Marlene Barrow. In fact, as teens they avoided working with a bandleader who wanted to record with them, even hiding in the closet when he came to Hicks’ home. “He asked my mother, ‘Where are Jacqueline and Marlene?’ ” Hicks remembers. “She said, ‘In the closet — hiding from you.’ He took it as a joke, so we opened the door and started laughing and came out. As we were going to the car, I said, ‘Mama, why would you tell on us?’ She said, ‘How much money are you making in that closet?’ ”
Demps, by contrast, had always aspired to perform professionally. Raised in the Catholic church, she was familiar with formal liturgical music, and her parents had always thought she should sing opera. Instead, Demps pursued pop, and though she was proud to be part of the Andantes, she wanted to perform under her own name, too. “I’m not saying that I wanted to be a star,” Demps explains, “but I wanted more. I just wanted more.”
Life after Motown
Early in 1972, rumors were flying that the label was planning a move to Los Angeles. “We had heard it in the air,” Barrow recounted in the 2007 book Motown from the Background. “We would ask them repeatedly if it were true. They would deny it.” But when she and Hicks went to pick up their mid-January paychecks, there weren’t any checks there for them. The two called Demps in the middle of the night in a panic, and the following day, Demps went down to Motown to find out whether the label was leaving. When she was told that it was, she was outraged. She demanded that checks be cut for all three Andantes, and she had the head of the label’s quality control department drive her to the bank to make sure hers cashed.
“That’s how we found out,” Demps says. “I guess if they hadn’t owed us money, they might not have said a word!”
Barrow and Hicks took the loss in stride. “They were trying to go into the movie thing,” Hicks says of Berry Gordy’s motivation. “They were going in a different direction.” Hicks eventually landed a job at the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department, and Barrow found employment with the Michigan Department of Labor. Demps took it much harder. She was a divorced mother of two young boys, and she feared, rightfully, that her dreams of stardom were ending. “For me it was devastating,” she says. “I just couldn’t adjust. Our songs would come on the radio and I’d cry.”
Demps left her hometown, moved to Atlanta and found work at a Georgia state center for children with intellectual disabilities. “I loved working with the children,” she points out. She was able to identify some nondisabled children at the center who had been caught up in the system, and she helped to get them out. “That softened my heart and kind of pulled me out of the dumps. There’s a little passage in the Bible that says, ‘and when he came to himself ...’ You know, when I came to myself, that’s when I realized that I’ve wasted time being depressed when I should have been happy.” Eventually, Demps began to sing again, doing commercial jobs as well as performing in church.
In the early 1990s, the Andantes reunited in Detroit to sing for Motorcity Records, an effort by a British producer to market the city’s Motown-era acts. The company quickly failed, but not before the Andantes — turned into a four-person group with the addition of their fellow Motown alumna Pat Lewis — recorded an album’s worth of songs under their own name. Those sessions were the group’s final foray into the studio together.
In recent years the Andantes have begun to receive the notice that many feel they ought to have had all along. Reissued Motown records now bear the Andantes name if the women sang on them. After being paid a flat hourly fee during their recording years, the women are now receiving some residuals for their work. And in 2013, while Barrow-Tate was still living, all three Andantes were able to visit an exhibit at the Motown Museum that celebrated the Supremes, the Vandellas, the Marvelettes and — right alongside them — the Andantes.
While she appreciates the belated recognition, Hicks says she would have been just as happy remaining in the background. “I’ve always been proud of myself and thankful to the Lord to have allowed me to do that,” she notes. “I don’t care how high anybody goes, it does not lower me any lower. Because I know what I did.”
—Additional research by Caitlin K. Rossmann and Dana Voorhees
Just a thought.
Didn't Diana record Someday in June of 69.
So there was plenty of time to add M and C. But Motown didn't. It was obvious BG didn't care.
The shift was in place.
But I feel BG was just as hard if not harder on Diana. I think she was under his thumb.it would take a few more years for her to break free of him but the cracks were there a widening. By the filming of Mahogany... spilt was around the corner
David, the track, along with the backing vocals were already recorded by the time Diana Ross recorded the lead vocal. It was never supposed to be a "Supremes" record to begin with. It was originally intended for Jr. Walker & the Allstars. Berry Gordy made the decision to promote it as a "Diana Ross & the Supremes" record upon the suggestion of Shelly Berger.Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddh
1970 was a great year for music...
Someday......
Up the Ladder to the roof
Reach out n touch
Stoned love
Ain't no mountain high enough
It sure was. Not to forget those Jackson 5 classics among many, many others from that year.Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddh