In a conversation about a musical group? Why wouldn't it be relevant?
Printable View
To echo a bit of what Rob is saying and with no disrespect but actually I never knew Mary, Flo and Cindy were not on those records until it was exposed I believe in the late seventies. I can even remember when there was talk of how Flo was "singing her butt off" on "You Keep Me Hanging On" but in reality I think it was later discovered that its Diana on Top of Diana singing. To be honest I think I was better off not knowing that Mary, Cindy and Flo were not on those records. I have to be honest that I may have known Mary and Cindy were not on "Love Child" but I would have punched someone out if someone told me to my face.
There were songs I always suspected were not Mary, Flo and Cindy. Love Child was definitely one of them as they sounded so weak live compared to the strong vocals on the recording.
Then I started suspecting the Andantes were on Stop years before it ever came out and Louvain confirmed that for me but she only really said they helped out and I got the impression it was only her and Jackie with Mary and Florence with the way she worded it.
The general public had no reason to believe it was anyone but the folks credited on the song. Maybe there were a few diehard fans who were able to pick up on it, but I've considered myself a diehard for the last 30 years and as recent as this year I've discovered [[or had it pointed out to me) two songs, an album cut and a shelved cut, that Flo isn't on that I always assumed was her. When it was pointed out to me, it was one of those moments where I slap my forehead because as I really pay attention to it, of course that's not Flo. Now if I, as Flo's biggest fan, can still occasionally be fooled when I'm well aware of the behind the scenes history of the group, I can't imagine many people in the 60s would have ever had a reason to question who was singing on the records and albums. If the name said Supremes, who would have thought it was ever anyone else?
I think we can all agree that, recording wise, Motown as a unit mostly focused on whoever was leading the song. The label did not make it an absolute to always have the backing vocalists on group songs be that of the actual group members, particularly where the female groups were concerned. But it's interesting to me that none of those Supremes/Vandellas/Marvelettes singles or albums are credited to the Andantes, if it didn't matter. I don't have access to it at the moment, but if I'm not mistaken, isn't the Floy Joy album the first time the Andantes get an actual credit for their vocals on another female group's material? And that was 1972.
On the back of the FLOY JOY album, the members of the Andantes are listed individually along with some of the musicians under a "Thanks To:" section. But unless someone knew the names Jackie Hicks or Earl Van Dyke, they wouldn't really know what their actual function was on the album was.
Oh there absolutely are - especially Manhattan, It’s All You Fault, Back in my Arms Again, You Keep Me Hangin On; I loved especially when Flo or Flo and Mary said against or in response to Diana in the early years
That full sound with everyone in the background of Stop is also very good
Does anyone happen to know when the Andantes stopped recording? Or what their last musical work was?
In their book, Marlene Barrow says that she believes the last sessions they did were on the 70s Supremes and some Diana solo recordings but she didn't name titles.
She said the date of January 16, 1973 was embedded in her brain. I gather that was when they finally knew it was over.
and it’s all subjective. We all have different values and concerns and none are right or wrong. They’re just how we feel. If I had known back in the day that various people were being used rather than the group, I might’ve felt differently, and, although I sometimes questioned the sound, it just never dawned on me that they would be using other singers, and since I liked the music, it doesn’t bother me. However, I do wish mary and Florence were on the Christmas album because I preferred their sound to what was used. And for me , it’s all about the sound.
lots of people feel as you do. For years Marv2 would talk about how big The Supremes Christmas album was year after year and it was a staple in his neighborhood every year and everything. When he found out it was the A’s, he was completely completely dismissive of the entire project. It’s interesting that each of us has a different read on this topic.
I don’t mean to say that the other two didn’t suffer, but Florence arrived Damaged goods, we all know that. And very few people got help back then, although MGM did send Judy to a sanitarium, she was not allowed to do what the doctors recommended. Perhaps if Florence had helped after the rape, she would’ve dealt with the situation better with the group and her dislike of flying. But she also had another issue in that she wasn’t a quick learner. And they often had to learn routines for television quickly. The Lord knows how much I loved Florence and how much I still do, but I could be objective also. She would get distracted or Maybe just forget that she was lip-synching on several television appearances. I think the hectic pace of the group was too much for her, that coupled with her unhappiness with the group direction, and the issues she brought out from outside the group, all led to her alcohol abuse. as I’ve stated many times, I wish they would’ve given her six months off to get herself together, and try to heal emotionally. But after she threw that drink in Gordy’s face, it was personal. I do not blame very Gordy, for the terrible exit package that Florence agreed to. She had bad legal advice, a bad attitude, and a new husband, who was completely incapable of giving her any kind of sound advice whatsoever. If she had half a brain, she would’ve demanded an audit of every nickel they were ever paid. Believe me, with the threat of an audit, Motown would’ve agreed to anything she wanted, because that was the absolute last thing they wanted. Can you imagine if all the artists found out that the Supremes were not being paid the right amount of money ? I blame that deal on poor Flo, Although it certainly isn’t her fault that she was naïve about things. It was just a rotten situation. But everyone was trying to do their best for themselves, and she got the short end of the stick.
as far as Gordy and Diana, yes, I do think her situation was as bad or worse. Just my opinion, but that is what I think. If Mary was too afraid to speak up for Florence for fear of losing her job, which I don’t believe, then, why not afford that same excuse to Diana? She was literally worked to the bone. She gave that crazy interview about leopards scratching her or whatever the hell that was. I’m not going to say what Diana should’ve done in any situation, I do believe she loved, and still does love Barry Gordy, that doesn’t mean she wasn’t abused. Mary said herself that diana was abused by Barry. Randy Terbi said the same thing. Even that crappy pulled on her shooting mahogany making her do retakes for no reason because he was the boss.
ultimately, it doesn’t matter who got it worse, they both got it bad.
you’re right about anorexia, but Diana was more than just stressed or lacking an appetite. She was under 100 pounds. She was unhealthy. You can see it. There’s a couple of periods where she was downright scary looking she was so thin. And I agree with you that her success was so great that it’s probably what she lived on and what kept her going. But I believe Gordie played mind games on her, and she was vulnerable enough to fall victim to them. There’s no way he was gonna let the goose that laid the golden egg get away from him twice, he learned his Mary Wells lesson very well.
Diana was always thin as is obvious to anyone who watches Mahogany. She was certainly overworked at certain points in time leading to her collapse. That is well documented and certainly a form of abuse.
On the other hand, to infer that she suffered more than the physical abuse handed out to Mary Wilson by her husband or the mental anguish suffered by Flo Ballard is being a little simplistic and rather insensitive.
If BG was so dreadfully abusive to Diana, why did she set out on a rather long sexual relationship that resulted in Rhonda. Even today it’s clear she adores the man.
I believe that Berry Gordy manipulated all three of the original Supremes in order to get the results he wanted. Diana suffered the least because she was his ticket to the big time in entertainment. They were personally involved with each other. It has been written that she was always seeking approval from her Father and that he favored another daughter, Barbara more. Once Gordy took on a "father figure" role in the company he favored Diana. I am sure that thrilled her beyond words to be singled out. He pushed her far too hard many times and surely could have been nicer and not overworked her to the point of collapse. Thing is both had that same goal of superstardom which bound them together no matter what.
Florence came from a big family and her singing was the big thing to her. She was always complimented for her big voice. His treatment of Florence was terrible and they seemed to have a written history of being antagonistic towards each other. Florence was opinionated and let it be known how she felt about things. Diana wrote that she was like the squeaky wheel that always wanted to be greased. If she was happy everyone was and if not, then everyone was unhappy. As Mary wrote she was close to her family and the tragedy of her attack made her wary of strangers. Gordy probably saw this and used it to his advantage to keep her in line in order to focus on Diana.
As Diana wrote Mary had tremendous inner strength. Yes, she was a "party girl" but she was also a hard worker. Mary was insecure having been "given" to an Aunt at a young age, she blended in and didn't say how she felt because she must have had abandonment issues. She even wrote she focused on her appearance in high school because even though she was "dumb" she was pretty. Mary had a wonderful voice but lacked confidence and Gordy saw that and exploited Mary's lack of confidence by telling her she couldn't sing. Then by the time Gordy had abandoned her and the Supremes in the 1970's, she clung to her new husband to have a center of strength and someone who believed in her. How he beat her and abused her was horrific, as she stated in her writings. It far surpassed how Gordy pushed Diana hard to achieve stardom. This was physical and mental abuse.
Gordy saw the three of them, and he saw their insecurities and used that to control them as employees and human beings. Diana was pushed unbelievably hard by him but they both had the same goal in mind to elevate her to a solo star. He tore down the self esteem of Florence and Mary, which caused each to react in a certain way-either fight for yourself and lose everything or be a survivor at all costs saying nothing for self preservation sake. And yes, the physical abuse Mary suffered can't even be compared to the relationship of Gordy and Ross. They are 2 far different things. Mary forgave her husband but Ross and Gordy are linked by their achievements and mutual admiration.
The Andantes started to back every Motown act around 1962, including the Supremes. I think the Andantes were on parts of "Stop! In the Name of Love", clearly there is more loud background vocals when you get to the alternate ending and those "aaaah-aaaah-aaaahs" you hear when Diana goes into the bridge parts sound like them.
So yeah, the Andantes would've definitely been singing on more Supremes tunes had Flo stayed.
It’s already been stated that one on the versions of Stop that the Andantes augmented Mary and Flo’s vocals. One version just Mary and Flo. One version Mary, Flo and the Andantes
The beginning to Stop sounds so full - I think the producers did a wonderful job loading it up with extra voices. For me, it’s very clear that there are voices on there besides or as well as M and F - I can’t tell tell who but it sure adds to the record
However it doesn’t take away from the incredible interplay of D with F on Manhattan - almost a duet and of all of them on NBH and YKMHO
The Andantes were on the majority of the Supremes record from "SITNOL" forward. They were also on The Miracles tunes such as "Going To A Go-Go" and "Mickey's Monkey", a bunch of Marvin Gaye tunes, "It's Growing" and Get Ready" from The Tempts and several other Motown artists from Edwin Starr and more. I don't see how they were only a "Four Tops" thing - they also were on many Martha & The Vandellas classics like "Dancing In The Street", so....
Diana was extremely stressed. That stress led to her lack of appetite. Her lack of appetite, coupled with her very active lifestyle as an entertainer led to her sometimes emaciated look. Being underweight, just as being overweight, can be unhealthy, so there are no arguments there. She was also overworked, that and not eating most likely led to her collapsing on stage. Honestly, I'm surprised she didn't collapse more than that. I think their schedule might have increased after Florence left, but I could be wrong.
But as I said before, where Diana lost her appetite, Flo's may have increased due to the stress she was under. At no point in time was Florence ever fat. She was stacked like a building. Next to the smaller Mary, and the much, much smaller Diana, there still wasn't anyone who watched them on TV or saw them in person who thought to themselves, "That Florence sure is fat". In fact, if it hadn't been written about in the books, I doubt any of us would ever even bring up Flo's weight for discussion because who would have thought it was ever an issue? The lady looked good.
Now I do understand that Flo's weight could be an issue when she might have trouble fitting a particular gown, but Gordy did not help by constantly riding her and calling her fat. I get that it was a different day and so some of the sensitivities we have toward certain things, like a woman's weight, wasn't treated as delicately as it might today. However, I'm sure for Flo it didn't matter what year it was, she was still a young lady who may very well have already been dealing with some body positivity issues. We know she ended up taking diet pills, which almost certainly contributed to some of the drama as the pills often had a side effect on the mood of the person taking the pills. Gordy was cruel to her.
He absolutely played mind games. He did that on all three of them. But again, what Gordy had in Diana was sometimes a co-conspirator. That's why I can never put her in the same boat as Flo and Mary. When Gordy was pulling some crap on Diana, he never went to Flo or Mary to join in. There are apparently times when he pulled crap on Flo and/or Mary and Diana was perfectly willing to chime in.
Mary's job probably wasn't in jeopardy, but she had no way of knowing that. What was to stop Gordy from dumping the whole group thing and taking Diana solo, had Mary decided to rock the boat with Flo? I can understand her fear. Diana didn't have that fear. Had Diana stepped up and advocated for Flo consistently, Gordy was never going to drop Diana from the act or stop working with her after he hitched his goals on her abilities. Add to that the accusations from Flo and Mary that Diana herself could be cruel to them, no, Diana did not have it worse. Diana reveled in the added attention and focus. She delighted in the plans to extend her position higher in order to launch her solo career. She cared not how any of that affected Florence or Mary and she sometimes did and said things that made the ladies feel like Diana didn't care...and she was mean about it. Lol
Of course the situation was complicated for all three ladies. They loved each other, and I do believe they all wanted the best for each other, even Diana: she wanted what was best for Flo and Mary, and they wanted the same for her. The problem was that they had people in the middle pitting them against one another. Flo and Mary started distrusting Diana as a result, while Diana started taking digs at them as a result. There was never any real effective communication. And I stand by something I've always believed: had Diana banded with Flo and Mary to get some equality, Gordy would have been forced to make some concessions because he ultimately wanted to make Diana happy. I don't think it ever occurred to him to want to make Flo and Mary happy. If they were happy, great. If not, tough cheese.
They were on the majority of the Supremes' records from "In and Out of Love" forward. Most Supremes recordings during Flo's time are the original trio. And of the hits during Flo's time, the Andantes are only added on "Stop" and the high parts of "Love Is Here", and one Andante is probably on "Hurry Love". The rest, from "Where Did Our Love Go" to "The Happening" are "undisputedly" Flo, Diana and Mary.
Mary Wilson was a host for me of many tv specials. As Jerry Butler decided to retire from his hosting, Mary was my choice to be the next host. I knew her very well as many of the Motown artists I've produced and recorded over the years.
Mary never held any animosity over The Andantes in my 15+ year relationship with her. She felt they filled in the harmony and gave them a fuller sound, and was happy for that as it resulted in more record sales and live appearances for the group. Mary also talked about their live appearance schedule and how they could not be back at Motown in time for many of the recordings. Again, grateful for the Andantes - not in any way animus. As was Smokey as a producer who used them often, as was H-D-H as was others. In fact, on one of our shows she introduced Louvain and insisted she sing with Pat Lewis as they had on the records.
https://www.facebook.com/ClassicMoto.../?locale=hi_IN
No, I don't need to do anymore research. The proof is in the pudding. It would boggle my mind that any true Supremes fan honestly believes that the Andantes are on more Supremes songs than Florence and Mary, if you have any ability to recognize their voices. Mary and Cindy? Sure. I think I'll start a new thread on the subject. See you there!
There's a lot of songs where I love what the Andantes did. But some fans do like to blow the Andantes thing out of proportion. The fact is Mary and Flo are on most of the songs, and yes sometimes the Andantes helped fill out the sound.
I'm so glad they were used on Love Child instead of Mary and Cindy, especially going by how they sounded doing it live.
Also Any Girl In Love is another favorite of mine as well as Born of Mary and Baby I Need Your Loving.
I agree - the songs are the songs
Other than a few fans, no one knows or cares who is in the background
And some fans like to analyze every song for every voice
I always thought it was all Flo Mary and Cindy - even thought Johnny Bristol was Mary.
But the songs still sound the same and I got over the surprise years ago
I have to back track a bit ....I really knew something was off with " Forever Came Today" and was told ....Oh Thats Cindy !!!! I was not familiar with Cindy's voice o I said okay and moved on. " Reflection" NO !!!! "Love Child"... H$%^ No but I looked at this way Mary and Cindy got charged for Studio team but rewarded for royalties for not being on a record. So at this point I thought the Andantes were probably cut the less check. I don't know I can't remember everything happening then. What I remember is that all the Supremes except Diana and Mary wrote off their royalties.
One thing I can't understand is why couldn't they give Florence six months off from touring but still have her do the big appearances and recording? Replace her on their tours and just say she needed a break. I don't see what is so taboo about that.
It seems like most of her problems were from their hectic touring schedule.
In a perfect world that might have been a good solution. In Gordy's world, it was either all or nothing. Plus, PR wise, what would be the explanation when the press started asking "Where's Florence? And why is she with the group sometimes, and replaced other times?" I don't know if Motown was savvy enough to handle the issue. After all, when Florence was fired for good, the company line was that she wanted to settle down, with Diana even saying Flo wanted to go into the antique business. But that ends up look sketchy when months later Florence is a solo artist at another record label.
Flo appeared rested and recovered when she agreed to return in 67. Whether or not that was for a trial period or just waiting until Cindy had sorted out her contract i’m still not entirely sure. It was only when she discovered Cindy’s identical costume in the dressing room did things go just a little awry.
I would love to know just how Cindy’s labelled costume came to be hanging up right next to Flo’s. Perhaps her return was going a little to well.
the supremes had contracts with each appearance. it would have been too disorganized to have a rotating position plus it would have potentially had negative impacts on the relationship with promoters.
To Berry's point of view, the girls needed to make money. lots of it. as much of it as possible. Flo's problems just were too disruptive to this idea and they couldn't stop every time she felt blue or not with it. her personal issues were having a clear and negative impact on the money other people were earning. everyone at motown was frazzled and running 10,000 MPH and going non stop. Flo wasn't being asked to do anything D and M weren't so the feeling was problem "get over yourself and get going."
Very cloak and dagger. All that’s needed is the dead body in the drawing room.
I think anyone would have felt crushed under such circumstances, making Flo’s reaction understandable. Was it done on purpose who knows, but it’s rather interesting it didn’t happen earlier in the tour and only at the point where Cindy had been given the all clear. Hmmm.