Autopsy: The Last Hours of Florence Ballard on REELZ Channel-Sun 7/29/08 9PM

Watched the autopsy show. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be. They didn't come with no crazy conspiracies, as far as giving those ideas legitimacy. Ultimately the "doctor" concludes that Florence had an undiagnosed heart condition, which I think is certainly possible. He also touched on that brown cereal like stuff mentioned in her autopsy that upset Maxine so much. Basically it's highly likely that it was nothing more than actual undigested cereal. I wish Maxine was still around to hear that as I'm sure it would've taken a load off of her mind.

The worst part of the program was the erroneous information. For one, it's stated that Florence is 5'11 several times. I don't know if that's recorded in her medical records, but I call bullcrap. I've always read that she was 5'7, and while she was always obviously taller than Diana and Mary, they weren't dwarfed beside her. So I'm not sure where 5'11 is coming from.

But the inaccuracy that boiled my blood the most was the misinformation that Florence visited Mary and the Supremes the summer before she died. Flo actually went out there in 1974. But that wasn't the worst. The narrator and the doctor kept mentioning that Flo never went onstage again and that by the time she died she didn't want to sing again. Of course we all know that roughly six months before she died Florence sang at a benefit concert for a rape victim. I went into this program understanding what I might watch but ultimately it still pissed me off that either the producers didn't exhaust their resources of information or they chose to rewrite the history...to serve what purpose, I do not know.

Saddest part of the show was Nicole recalling when her mother fell ill. Obviously the pain is still very present.

I noticed some of the inaccuracies

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Watched the autopsy show. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be. They didn't come with no crazy conspiracies, as far as giving those ideas legitimacy. Ultimately the "doctor" concludes that Florence had an undiagnosed heart condition, which I think is certainly possible. He also touched on that brown cereal like stuff mentioned in her autopsy that upset Maxine so much. Basically it's highly likely that it was nothing more than actual undigested cereal. I wish Maxine was still around to hear that as I'm sure it would've taken a load off of her mind.

The worst part of the program was the erroneous information. For one, it's stated that Florence is 5'11 several times. I don't know if that's recorded in her medical records, but I call bullcrap. I've always read that she was 5'7, and while she was always obviously taller than Diana and Mary, they weren't dwarfed beside her. So I'm not sure where 5'11 is coming from.

But the inaccuracy that boiled my blood the most was the misinformation that Florence visited Mary and the Supremes the summer before she died. Flo actually went out there in 1974. But that wasn't the worst. The narrator and the doctor kept mentioning that Flo never went onstage again and that by the time she died she didn't want to sing again. Of course we all know that roughly six months before she died Florence sang at a benefit concert for a rape victim. I went into this program understanding what I might watch but ultimately it still pissed me off that either the producers didn't exhaust their resources of information or they chose to rewrite the history...to serve what purpose, I do not know.

Saddest part of the show was Nicole recalling when her mother fell ill. Obviously the pain is still very present.

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Excellent review, Ranran! Tabloid, sensationalized journalism. Prayerfully, her family does not find this discomforting. I was embarrassed watching it.

Besides the date errors i thought it was well put together especially the ptsd isues from her unresolved rape . domestic abuse putting more strain on her heart. The constsnt attention on their brutal schedule pnemonia in 66 leading t hospital stay anfc5 friction w gordy and her drastic obsession with being put out of the supremes .

I've always wondered if [[or why not) any faith-based groups in the area assisted Florence. Was that addressed?

No it was not. In the 60s and 70s there was very help for t problems flo was experiencing. Reaching out to henry ford hospital came too late

I think most people came to the conclusion on their own that given 1960's and early 1970's, treating heart disease issues were not as well addressed as they are today. Even open heart surgeries were in the beginning stages. So yes, I very well agree that Flo might have had a heart disorder that wasn't understood back then.

The presenter did NOT mention if heart disease ran in the Ballard family that Flo's heredity also played a part.

Plus I agree that waiting for Flo's relatives to assist Nicole probably did more damage in waiting. Things like calling 911 for help didn't really exist back then unless the normal telephone operator was skilled in calling emergency for help.

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Originally Posted by greg jones

I think most people came to the conclusion on their own that given 1960's and early 1970's, treating heart disease issues were not as well addressed as they are today. Even open heart surgeries were in the beginning stages. So yes, I very well agree that Flo might have had a heart disorder that wasn't understood back then.

The presenter did NOT mention if heart disease ran in the Ballard family that Flo's heredity also played a part.

Plus I agree that waiting for Flo's relatives to assist Nicole probably did more damage in waiting. Things like calling 911 for help didn't really exist back then unless the normal telephone operator was skilled in calling emergency for help.

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He did say both of Flos parents did not die of heart problems.

So it looks as if this program has proven once and for all that it was not mal/mistreatment by any individuals that led to Florence's untimely passing but rather a predisposed heart disease that was not diagnosable at that time. It's good the program has settled the matter beyond dispute.

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Originally Posted by vgalindo

He did say both of Flos parents did not die of heart problems.

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Thank you, I must have missed that.

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Originally Posted by greg jones

I think most people came to the conclusion on their own that given 1960's and early 1970's, treating heart disease issues were not as well addressed as they are today. Even open heart surgeries were in the beginning stages. So yes, I very well agree that Flo might have had a heart disorder that wasn't understood back then.

The presenter did NOT mention if heart disease ran in the Ballard family that Flo's heredity also played a part.

Plus I agree that waiting for Flo's relatives to assist Nicole probably did more damage in waiting. Things like calling 911 for help didn't really exist back then unless the normal telephone operator was skilled in calling emergency for help.

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Wasn't she a heavy smoker? I can't recall where I read that she was, but if true, smoking has long been established to lead to heart disease.

That's the only part I don't like about these documentaries: their inaccuracies. When Florence joined the Supremes at Disneyland that summer of 1974, she had yet to get that settlement after suing her lawyers for negligence and got that new house and she performed that year and was planning a comeback.

That said, sounds like they cleared something up like they did Elvis. Both had mad heart issues!

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Originally Posted by midnightman

That's the only part I don't like about these documentaries: their inaccuracies. When Florence joined the Supremes at Disneyland that summer of 1974, she had yet to get that settlement after suing her lawyers for negligence and got that new house and she performed that year and was planning a comeback.

That said, sounds like they cleared something up like they did Elvis. Both had mad heart issues!

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It wasn't Disneyland, it was Magic Mountain. Gotta watch those inaccuracies.......hehehehehehe!

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Originally Posted by marv2

It wasn't Disneyland, it was Magic Mountain. Gotta watch those inaccuracies.......hehehehehehe!

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Isn't Magic Mountain AT Disneyland???

That's not wrong at all LOL

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Originally Posted by marv2

It wasn't Disneyland, it was Magic Mountain. Gotta watch those inaccuracies.......hehehehehehe!

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Lol! Touché!

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Originally Posted by midnightman

Isn't Magic Mountain AT Disneyland???

That's not wrong at all LOL

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No, Magic mountain is a Six Flags resort in Santa Clarita. Disneyland is in Anaheim ... about 1 ½ hour drive from each other [[if the traffic is decent).

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Originally Posted by midnightman

Isn't Magic Mountain AT Disneyland???

That's not wrong at all LOL

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If you asked Mary, "Well weren't you playing at Disneyland?" You'll get a confused look and then a rolling of the eyes because she will not know what the Hell you're talking about. They were at Magic Mountain, that's the name of the venue. LOL!

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Originally Posted by johnny_raven

No, Magic mountain is a Six Flags resort in Santa Clarita. Disneyland is in Anaheim ... about 1 ½ hour drive from each other [[if the traffic is decent).

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Thank you Johnny Raven.

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Originally Posted by Boogiedown

Lol! Touché!

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hehehehehehehehehehe!

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Originally Posted by midnightman

Isn't Magic Mountain AT Disneyland???

That's not wrong at all LOL

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i think you're referring to Space Mountain lol ;)

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think you're referring to Space Mountain lol ;)

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HAHAHA

OK, well anyway, my original point still stands. ;)

It's a MINOR nitpick, mmkay guys?

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Originally Posted by thanxal

Wasn't she a heavy smoker? I can't recall where I read that she was, but if true, smoking has long been established to lead to heart disease.

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I've seen several photos of Flo with a cigarette in her hand. All three of them smoked heavily from what it seems like.

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Originally Posted by johnny_raven

No, Magic mountain is a Six Flags resort in Santa Clarita. Disneyland is in Anaheim ... about 1 ½ hour drive from each other [[if the traffic is decent).

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Quite right. Opposite ends of LA metro. The first time I saw the "new" Supremes [[JMC, 1971) was indeed at Disneyland and I believe in the shadow of Space Mountain. :) It was probably way too soon for Flo to have been visiting them. :[[

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Originally Posted by floyjoy678

I've seen several photos of Flo with a cigarette in her hand. All three of them smoked heavily from what it seems like.

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I would conclude the same. Nothing too unique about Flo's smoking.

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Originally Posted by greg jones

I think most people came to the conclusion on their own that given 1960's and early 1970's, treating heart disease issues were not as well addressed as they are today. Even open heart surgeries were in the beginning stages. So yes, I very well agree that Flo might have had a heart disorder that wasn't understood back then.

The presenter did NOT mention if heart disease ran in the Ballard family that Flo's heredity also played a part.

Plus I agree that waiting for Flo's relatives to assist Nicole probably did more damage in waiting. Things like calling 911 for help didn't really exist back then unless the normal telephone operator was skilled in calling emergency for help.

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Here's what I find interesting. We all know Florence drank and smoked. We all know Florence had difficulty managing her weight. That being said, even with her alcoholism, there were others who drank FAR worse and far longer than Florence did and lived longer [[before either beating it or drinking themselves to death via cirrhosis), and while Florence smoked, she certainly wasn't - from what we know - a smoking chimney. Second, Florence may have struggled with her weight, but again, her weight issues were minuscule as compared with those of other people. Photos from the last couple years of her life hardly reveal someone who had let themselves go - certainly not like Elvis. It does not seem plausible to me that Florence's early [[and rather sudden) death were the sole result of her drinking and/or weight issues - at least not without a third, underlying factor.

Here's where blood pressure and heart disease come in. I believe Florence's death certificate states she died from coronary thrombosis, which is a blood clot inside the heart. While heart disease usually presents physiologically noticeable symptoms and is detectable earlier on, blood clots can build up asymptomatically over a long period of time, but its presence usually doesn't present itself until is causes further complications, such as a stroke or an aneurysm. It's a silent killer. While I believe the drinking, smoking, and battle with her weight certainly was not good for her heart, I find it hard to believe that Florence could have all of a sudden - two months before she died - started suffering from a heart condition. Grant it, I of course could be wrong, but what makes more sense to me is that any heart problems she was suffering from was a result of a pre-existing problem such as a blood clot. Certainly the alcoholism and weight fluctuations helped speed up the process, but I've always found it very odd that in all of the reports of Florence's later years we have, nobody mentions that Florence was suffering from any physical ailments until roughly two months or so before she died.

Florence's family reported that in her last couple of months, she suffered from high fevers, was hot all of the time, and was constantly thirsty, among other symptoms. These are classic symptoms of unmaintained high blood pressure. I believe Florence was on medication to help control her blood pressure, but if a clot had already formed, it would have trumped the medication. My grandmother suffered from high blood pressure, as well, took medication for it, but died unexpectedly from an aneurysm that had built up at an early age. Silent and sudden killer. Unfortunately, take out the alcoholism and weight issues, I think Florence would have died at a young age regardless, especially with the rather immature knowledge we had back then about high blood pressure and heart disease as pre-existing conditions. I don't believe her firing, depression, or even her alcoholism were primary factors at all. I think the more plausible explanation is that she was predisposed to a genetic condition, developed a clot that built up over time, and died from something that would have killed her regardless if she had maintained a happy, successful singing career or not.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Diana was a wannabe diva. She lived for any moment where she could be exalted above someone else, set apart as special. No surprise to me that she would jump at the chance to have her own dressing room. Personally, I find it hard to believe that by 1966 if Flo or Mary had been offered their own dressing room that they wouldn't have taken it. What pissed them off was that Diana got it. [[And they should have been pissed. I would've said "if she wants her own dressing room, I want my own too and if I don't get it, then she can't get it either" and then I would've proceeded to be all up in Miss Ross' dressing room every chance I got. I would change clothes in the "Supremes" dressing room and then I'd do my makeup in Miss Ross' dressing room or vice versa. She would've never had that room to herself.)

But again, this is where I blame Gordy. Diana did what young girls her age do. But he was the boss, the buck always stopped with him. Gordy was no dummy. He knew group solidarity and unity was essential to success. But he thought of Diana as indispensable and the others as throwaways. So for him it was more important to keep Diana happy and less so for the others. When Diana complains of the girls basically treating her like crap, she has herself to blame because she campaigned for all of the things that pissed them off. But ultimately Gordy was the problem. If Ross wanted her own dressing room, they all should've gotten their own. If not, then they all have to share. But I can't imagine they were playing venues at this point that couldn't provide three separate dressing rooms. Gordy was making a point and he used Ross to do it. Sadly, he is seen as the innocent in the situation by the Diana haters but everything that happened to the Supremes was his decision.

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I’m A little disappointed in your comments about the dressing rooms. Would you really be that bratty in an already tense group situation? I doubt very much that the separate dressing rooms were at diva ploy, but rather to ease the tension‘s before shows. Diana was a nervous wreck as it is, having to do two and three shows at night and argue and fight and have tenseness Before during and after shows would just exacerbate the situation, and quite frankly, be a stupid thing to do. Most television studios have plenty of dressing rooms for each to have their own , Of course many theaters do as well. I’m sure that if Mary and flow or Mary and Cindy wanted separate dressing rooms they would’ve been able to have them but that doesn’t necessarily mean they wanted Them. After Outer Drive, when Flo came back she wasn’t speaking to either mary or Diana…… I did not travel with them to and from shows. Regardless of what one person on this forum says, Mary was just as complicit with Flo’s ouster as diana was……Some think she was even worse as it was Mary who turned on Flo at the meeting When Flo was expecting Mary to stand up for her. As far as Diana having our own dressing room, if the vibes weren’t good in a community dressing room it made sense for her to have her own so she could prepare emotionally and mentally to do the show…… After all she had 90% of the work load. She was already under 100 pounds, separate dressing room was the smart thing to do……

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

I’m A little disappointed in your comments about the dressing rooms. Would you really be that bratty in an already tense group situation? I doubt very much that the separate dressing rooms were at diva ploy, but rather to ease the tension‘s before shows. Diana was a nervous wreck as it is, having to do two and three shows at night and argue and fight and have tenseness Before during and after shows would just exacerbate the situation, and quite frankly, be a stupid thing to do. Most television studios have plenty of dressing rooms for each to have their own , Of course many theaters do as well. I’m sure that if Mary and flow or Mary and Cindy wanted separate dressing rooms they would’ve been able to have them but that doesn’t necessarily mean they wanted Them. After Outer Drive, when Flo came back she wasn’t speaking to either mary or Diana…… I did not travel with them to and from shows. Regardless of what one person on this forum says, Mary was just as complicit with Flo’s ouster as diana was……Some think she was even worse as it was Mary who turned on Flo at the meeting When Flo was expecting Mary to stand up for her. As far as Diana having our own dressing room, if the vibes weren’t good in a community dressing room it made sense for her to have her own so she could prepare emotionally and mentally to do the show…… After all she had 90% of the work load. She was already under 100 pounds, separate dressing room was the smart thing to do……

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Yeah, I'm not buying it. I know the mind and world of teenage/young adult women very well, and the descriptions of Diana even in the Primettes days SCREAMS a girl who would've loved to have a separate dressing room or separate anything that further let the world know that, sure she's a member of the Supremes, but she's THE Supreme. By your logic, if things had gotten cool first with Flo on one side and Diana and Mary on the other, Florence would've been given her own dressing room. No way. That dressing room thing was seen as a further way to separate Diana from the other two in the minds of anyone working behind the scenes, lest there be confusion. After all, if the dressing room wasn't the issue, couldn't Gordy have just gone to Flo and Mary and said stop making life for the lead singer so difficult?

And I don't know if I buy that Diana asked for her own dressing room. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if this was another one of Gordy's ideas and Diana jumped at the chance. As I'm sure the other girls would've done too. [[I can imagine that being three young women in a single dressing room before and after a show- especially after a show when you're hot, sweaty and stinky- the idea of a dressing room to one's self would be a dream, but only one member got the chance and that's not fair.)

And yes, I would've been that petty. Diana Ross surely was no stranger to petty behavior, so why should Flo and Mary have taken the high road?

Flo's daughter was drugged up or is she depressed ?

The dressing room thing. Look, these were three young women barely out of high school. Also I'm QUITE sure the Supremes weren't the only act with dressing room issues...

It's possible Gordy thought it was best to separate them. Flo hinted at it during her interviews with Peter. But she indicated ALL THREE had separate dressing rooms and hotel rooms.

As she said, "it seems like we're splitting in that matter".

https://jazzinphoto.files.wordpress....lo-theater.jpg

I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

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Originally Posted by floyjoy678

I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

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There IS a photo of Diana and Flo sharing a bedroom at the Apollo:

https://jazzinphoto.files.wordpress....lo-theater.jpg

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Yeah, I'm not buying it. I know the mind and world of teenage/young adult women very well, and the descriptions of Diana even in the Primettes days SCREAMS a girl who would've loved to have a separate dressing room or separate anything that further let the world know that, sure she's a member of the Supremes, but she's THE Supreme. By your logic, if things had gotten cool first with Flo on one side and Diana and Mary on the other, Florence would've been given her own dressing room. No way. That dressing room thing was seen as a further way to separate Diana from the other two in the minds of anyone working behind the scenes, lest there be confusion. After all, if the dressing room wasn't the issue, couldn't Gordy have just gone to Flo and Mary and said stop making life for the lead singer so difficult?

And I don't know if I buy that Diana asked for her own dressing room. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if this was another one of Gordy's ideas and Diana jumped at the chance. As I'm sure the other girls would've done too. [[I can imagine that being three young women in a single dressing room before and after a show- especially after a show when you're hot, sweaty and stinky- the idea of a dressing room to one's self would be a dream, but only one member got the chance and that's not fair.)

And yes, I would've been that petty. Diana Ross surely was no stranger to petty behavior, so why should Flo and Mary have taken the high road?

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I agree that Diana might have jumped at the chance, but regardless of If she wanted one or not, the smart thing to do, with the group not getting along, for the good of the show, was to separate them… I don’t see how you can argue that.

Is the Florence Ballard movie coming out soon? Someone here posts about it frequently.

Diana Ross was the act. If Diana was hot that night, the show was hot. If Diana was cold that night, the show was cold. Diana deserved her own private dressing room if that contributed towards her giving a better performance. After all, she was the act.

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Originally Posted by midnightman

The dressing room thing. Look, these were three young women barely out of high school. Also I'm QUITE sure the Supremes weren't the only act with dressing room issues...

It's possible Gordy thought it was best to separate them. Flo hinted at it during her interviews with Peter. But she indicated ALL THREE had separate dressing rooms and hotel rooms.

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Once they hit the big time they always had separate hotel rooms, but I don't recall ever hearing that they each had separate dressing rooms. I think Gordy thought it best to separate them also, but not because of the friction. I think he did it as a sign of Diana's status even within the group. Plus Mary and Flo and others behind the scenes have said that they thought Gordy intentionally alienated Diana from Mary and Flo because it was actually easier to control her.

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Originally Posted by floyjoy678

I don't know if I buy the separate dressing rooms thing. If it happened it was after 1967. The Orient tour footage shows all three of them in the same dressing room multiple times.

Also from different accounts, the night of Flo's last show all of three of the girls were in the same dressing room when that all went down [[some versions say Mary wasn't there, just Diana and Flo).

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I'm assuming there were times when separate dressing rooms may not have always been an option, depending on where they played and how many other artists were booked, particularly when doing television shows. In regards to Flo's last night with the group, so many different versions of the night have been told that it's hard to pin down the facts, but the stories that stick out in my mind are always taking place "backstage", whether that's a dressing room or the general backstage area, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by TheMotownManiac

I agree that Diana might have jumped at the chance, but regardless of If she wanted one or not, the smart thing to do, with the group not getting along, for the good of the show, was to separate them… I don’t see how you can argue that.

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If your point is that it would've been a wise decision on Gordy's part to separate them due to the friction, there is no argument against that. Set aside the fact [[my opinion anyway) that Gordy was the cause of the friction in the first place, if he was really about helping the situation, why give one girl a dressing room over the others? Surely he would've been smart enough to know that while this may stop some of the before and after show bickering, it would not put an end to it in general and would only increase it, since young women have a tendency to be jealous when another woman seems to be getting more of something than she. [[And ladies I realize I'm generalizing so I'll take my chastisements as they come.) If Gordy wanted to ease the tension then why not give all three girls their own dressing room? That's the argument I'm making. I don't see how anyone can argue that giving one girl her own anything vs the other two makes any sense when the folks in charge should be doing everything they can to make the ship run as smoothly as possible. There is no smooth sailing when you have three young ladies and one is getting special treatment. 1966, 1776, 2016...no matter the year, young women that age tend to react to the situation in the same way. Gordy knew that.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Once they hit the big time they always had separate hotel rooms, but I don't recall ever hearing that they each had separate dressing rooms. I think Gordy thought it best to separate them also, but not because of the friction. I think he did it as a sign of Diana's status even within the group. Plus Mary and Flo and others behind the scenes have said that they thought Gordy intentionally alienated Diana from Mary and Flo because it was actually easier to control her.

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Yeah, sounds like they were concerned their friend was being brainwashed by Gordy. I mean if you put yourselves in their shoes, you can kinda see where all three were coming from. You got two members who seem more independent and another who was desperate to be somebody that they were willing to sacrifice a lot even if it meant alienating from her friends even if that wasn't the intention. Happens with a lot of groups who have that stand out member or a lead singer. By setting Diana apart, Gordy was intentionally fracturing what had been a really close bond between three best friends. The music business is dirty.

The music business is dirty, especially to young girls...young Black girls...young Black girls in the 1960s. There's so much misogyny in the Supremes' story and apparently even among the fans. Diana, Flo and Mary catch a lot of hell for things that happened a million years ago, but 99 percent of the folks who criticize the Supremes for whatever reason, seem to go silent when it comes to Berry, and if not silent they actually back him up. Who cares about how people get treated as long as we get that great Motown sound. We're a sick society folks.:[[

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

The music business is dirty, especially to young girls...young Black girls...young Black girls in the 1960s. There's so much misogyny in the Supremes' story and apparently even among the fans. Diana, Flo and Mary catch a lot of hell for things that happened a million years ago, but 99 percent of the folks who criticize the Supremes for whatever reason, seem to go silent when it comes to Berry, and if not silent they actually back him up. Who cares about how people get treated as long as we get that great Motown sound. We're a sick society folks.:[[

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This is a great perspective, RanRan79.