RCA would never have released Diana for a whole album.
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RCA would never have released Diana for a whole album.
That would have been nice, but when you say "test the waters", is that in terms of judging the public's interest, or Diana and Mary's ability to work together again?
If the former, I'm not sure it was necessary. I think the public was always hoping for a reunion of Diana Ross to the Supremes and a project would have most likely been well received.
If the latter, you might be right.
Florence may have been able to bring some levelheadedness to a reunion had she lived, considering she had done what neither Diana nor Mary had to do: return to "normal" life after being a star. Of course it's unfortunate that we'll never know. I like to think that Cindy would have been a voice of reason, not only because of her own experience of returning to regular life, but because she was older by a few years. Unfortunately, there's no evidence that Cindy had the personality for buffering between personalities like Diana and Mary.
The reunion idea post what actually happened during Motown 25 never really has a chance without Diana and Mary coming together to squash their issues. Even if RTL had somehow made it off the ground with Mary involved, there's a big chance it would have imploded because the pressure that causes it is ever present since they refused to address it with one another. Each lady had legit gripes with the other and I don't think either one was in position to see things from the other's perspective without a conversation. They refused to do this and we fans lost out on something that I'll always believe we deserved: a Diana and Mary Supremes reunion project.
But I do think Diana's actions at Motown 25 really pushed Mary to write Dreamgirl, and Mary writing Dreamgirl pushed Diana to put Mary in the "nope" category. So in an alternate universe where Motown 25 goes off without a hitch, and in a world before Dreamgirl is written, a Supremes reunion would have rocked.
It's interesting that in the 80s, had Flo lived, it's being considered that she would be the buffer, since in the 60s Mary was the buffer between Flo and Diana.
Considering she was already a solo act, Mary Wilson and the Supremes would seem a suitable title if the group were to have reunited in 82. Being the only original Supreme featured, Mary surely deserved this recognition. I think Scherrie and Cindy would have been fine with the idea.
Ross had no reason to do a Supremes tour instead of her follow up to swept away. Ross was making a fortune arena touring the world as a solo, there was nothing for her to gain. She was literally getting top prices with very very very minimal production.
RCA would never have let her release anything on Motown, they were still trying to recoup their 20 million. Epic would not allow Michael’s name to appear as an artist on eaten alive single or album.
I think this supremes reunion tour conversation is fun, however I don’t believe the public was clamoring for one.
Comparing it to the Temptations reunion tour is not comparing apples with apples. The Temptations were a very unique blend of a large range of fine voices. You had world-class falsetto, good bass, and two very strong R&B lead vocalists. This gave their performances an identity, and, most importantly, they sang their hits religiously similar to their single versions. Audiences loved that. The Supremes had one voice that attracted the public in a big way, but other than that, the general public had absolutely no idea who any other supreme was. Only diehard Supremes fans knew, and that was not enough to sell out all the seats in the Ramada Inn. Without ross in the mix, no one would care who was in the group and who was reuniting they didn’t care when they were there initially, why would they care now? They wouldn’t. Mary had a very difficult time selling tickets when she left the group. She was no star attraction. Using the moniker Mary Wilson in the Supremes would keep more people away because no one knew who she was. I’ve been till the name change in 1967, only the diehard fans knew the names of the group, including Diana.
I do think thatif they could get some material and some radio play, a grouping with Scherrie singing lead could’ve done some thing if they allowed Suzanne DePasse to run the ball game like she did the Jackson 5. That would’ve meant singing the hits as recorded, and I’m sure that they could’ve featured Mary a couple times in the show with ballads, but they were not going to allow her to be the lead singer or even a co-lead singer because, Right or wrong, there wasn’t anybody there that felt she had the chops to do it. Mary might’ve been able to build a name for herself within the group if it was under the direction of someone who knew what they were doing. Up until the book came out and she did her national tour of “I’ve been a victim of diana ross, Who slept her way to the top and kept the real talent of the group buried because of jealousy and ego but I manage to survive” then and only then did the general public know her name. And, rooting for the underdog, she was able to get the exposure she wanted and needed to prove that she could have a successful solo career. Without the book her name meant nothing.
I would have loved to be able to go see the Supremes over the years, but after a while of listening to any of the Supremes singers putting their stamp on a classic recording, it gets annoying very fast. The feeling at a Temptations concert is a party where you know all the words. The feeling of a Flos concert never gets halfway there.
to me, this whole story sort of smacks of the "Marvin Gaye will be producing Mary's first solo album" lots and lots and lots of "news" is dropped out into the public domain by publicists, PR men, artists, etc. much of it is simply to general immediate news activity - not any real claim of an upcoming project.
also other than any rumors in Jet or other magazines, isn't Mary just about the only real source of this. yes i know it's in Randy's book but is that just an interview with Mary? have others in the motown office or Cindy or Scherrie made any acknowledgement of this?
now lets say it was true. Suzanne and others were trying to repeat the Temps reunion. my guess is that they were already developing plans for Motown 25 the next year and one of the culminating moments of that show was to be the Supremes' reunion with DMC. while they knew that combo would never be able to tour and record, perhaps they figured the SMC would at least get some dates and sell some records. a flash in the pan and then done.
I do find Mary's logic about deciding not to do the tour because of what she had accomplished as a solo a bit odd. to be blunt, there was very little accomplished at this point. 1 mediocre album on motown, 4 very strong Gus tracks, and random touring around the world with her Supremes' show. i know she was still heavily shopping for a label but there was no interest. so wouldn't it have made financial sense to pursue this?
Rather than a reunion on record, which would have been a nonstarter with Motown vs. RCA, a Supremes TV movie might have been fun. If Joan Rivers could play herself in a TV movie, why not the Supremes? It would have been a nice way to "take back" their story after Dreamgirls made its mark on Broadway and beyond, and it might have mended the relationship between Mary and Diana. The only question is: Who would play Florence?
According to J. Randy's CALL HER MISS ROSS, at some point in the 80s, Suzanne dePasse was trying to produce a Supremes biography for television. At the time Cindy was not doing well financially. When Diana found out, she procrastinated her approval of the project long enough for Cindy to get $30,000 for her part in the story, which she didn't have to return.
I always thought an AMERICAN MASTERS type of documentary on the group would be interesting. But I fear that varying viewpoints might make it a headache for whoever decided to produce it.
You are absolutely spot-on and I often wonder how much received "wisdom" on any given topic is exactly such fluff and guster - unattributable to any reputable source but repeated enough that it becomes an accepted fact. I think there is far more of it than most people realize or are willing to admit.
I have reached out to PBS and the team behind American Masters several times about this but never got a response. To me, the fact there is no in-depth, thorough documentary about them is rather criminal. And I don't want to hear the "there's no demand for it" argument. People aren't clamoring for documentaries on the American buffalo, but you got one coming out from Ken Burns in the next few years that no doubt will be incredible. Done correctly, a Supremes documentary could win awards and be a huge success. I've always felt a Ken Burns style documentary on them could be profound. There's a way to tell their story without Diana coming out looking like a villain and Mary and Florence the victim. Everyone is going to come out with a little dirt on them. That's life and their story but done truthfully it's not going to damage anyone. Their impact, influence, and success they achieved needs to be emphasized greatly because frankly they don't get enough credit for what they did. And you have to tell the whole story. The 70s years can't be glossed over. Use the ladies as sources but none of them nor their families should be involved especially if we want their story done correctly. The thing is you need to right people behind it and the right people leading it. It can't be people who are unwilling to allow folks like Andy, George, etc. have a creative say. Excluding folks who know their story would just be asinine.
Two things stand in the way though: Berry Gordy and Diana Ross. Gordy has the grand rights over usage of the music used in TV commercials, movies, documentaries, etc. If there is going to be a Supremes documentary, you have to tell the truth and Gordy is not going to come out in the best light. He's not going to ever sign off the usage of music in something that's going to make him look bad. I imagine once Gordy passes away there won't be an obstacle on getting rights to the music. Ross is the other obstacle although probably not so much to the extent Gordy has in preventing the usage of music. She may try to do stop a documentary going forward but I imagine at 78 years old she's not going to put up a fight like she may have done when she was 50.
Stephanie Mills is fantastic. Disco had always been very supportive of her. I have no idea what the need is for this us verses them tone being presented here. The pop chart has always been wonderfully inclusive.
Success can be measured in
many ways and in many degrees. Yes TREAT HER did well on the R&B chart which is one way of measuring success. If success is measured by sales obviously being a hit on the Pop chart broadens your exposure and your audience [=sales from product and concert attendance ]
By Motowns own goals and standards , The temptations not breaking the Top 40 as was their norm would be a disappointment and seen as less successful
I’m happy to say I have never once listened to
music based on skin color from any angle for any reason, Never not once …. and the bravado expressed here about doing so ….Well let it marinade in
of itself
The idea of Ken Burns helming a doc on either the Supremes or better yet, on Motown itself, is extremely intriguing to think about. He can make any subject fascinating and the docs he's done on music have been especially compelling. In addition to "Jazz," didn't he also do the series on Country and Western music? It was excellent. I think I watched it all the way through twice.
His documentaries are the gold standard. The vast majority of his documentaries usually center on American history subjects [[the Civil War, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Vietnam War, Thomas Jefferson, the Roosevelts, just to name a few). Any topics dealing with popular culture are usually ones who have played an integral part in American history - thus documentaries on people like Muhammad Ali, Ernest Hemingway, and music like jazz and country. Jazz was a 10-part, 19 hour series. Country Music was a 8-part, 16 hours. He could easily do a 2-part, 4 hour documentary on the Supremes. The same with Motown. A real in-depth look at the record empire - that would most definitely be a 4-6 part series but you have the obstacle of Berry Gordy who won't sign off on the music rights especially if we're talking about the truth and what really happened. Burns isn't one to sugarcoat and Gordy will not look good in parts of it.
Burns has years of documentaries in the works and I'm sure he's booked up to 2028 with yearly documentaries on topics like the American Revolution and LBJ & the Great Society. If he ever did documentary on the ladies or Motown we may not see it until the 2030s.
I know a lot of fans have been clamouring for a major biopic, but I've always thought a documentary would be the best approach to really nail down the full complexity of The Supremes' story. Personally, I've always found biopics to be overrated - messy, incomplete and often one-sided. Inevitably there's always some dramatic license taken depicting a true story, and I can only imagine how many feathers would end up getting ruffled in that process.
I'm not sure why I would disbelieve her either? If it was just a PR stunt [[there are mentions in Jet, and probably others at the time) I'm not sure why Mary would later include it in her book if it didn't actually happen, or wasn't even proposed to her.
I remember that line about not wanting to leave what she'd accomplished as a solo artist, but I don't think the accomplishment needs to be that prestigious. I mean, the accomplishment was making a living for herself and her family, getting her show back on the road after her divorce [[which didn't leave her with much, from what I understand) and running her own business without having to answer to Motown, her husband or anyone else. I mean, she'd just left one abusive relationship, I doubt she'd be willing to just walk into another.
Perhaps in retrospect it wouldn't have hurt to have another record out there. At that point in time, I doubt she'd have been quick to just have yet another kick at the can at Motown - it would be her third by that time - without some extra assurance of their commitment. Certainly not after the bitter experience both as a solo and from the latter-day Supremes.
This potential reunion info might have been a plant by Motown or Mary to see what public interest there could be. Maybe not.
I don't remember J. Randy ever writing about it. Besides Mary's SUPREME FAITH, the only place I recall reading about it was in JET magazine. I think the JET item also mentioned that Cindy was looking for a gospel contract through her company Joy Enterprises.
there is MAYBE a glimmer of possibility that with the massive success of the broadway show Dreamgirls in late 81, some people at Motown might have thought "hey let's jump on this bandwagon and make some money" but given motown's total disinterest in the Supremes post Diana and how everything that was being reissued by the 60s grouping was always being labeled DRATS [[often with DIANA ROSS in larger font even) i can't imagine that at any Sr level of the company, anyone was considering this.
the Temps reunion album was released in 82. production of the movie The Big Chill began in 82 and they utilized a lot of Motown music so they would have been working with the company to gain licenses. Plans were in the works for Motown 25. So i could see in some lower-level company meeting people were brainstorming "what else can we do?" and someone said "hey let's get the Sups back together too"
prior to Mary's lawsuits, it was clear Motown has 0 interest in her other than a backing singer. Berry was always big on loyalty and her lawsuits had to be viewed as nothing short of heretical. and any reformation of the group would have to include mary and she would have to be in a larger role than what she was in the 60s. so that means that even if she wasn't the official lead, she'd be doing much to manage the group and all. so they'd be working closely with her and by the 80s none of them wanted that
The idea was Suzanne dePasse's who approached Mary with the notion of a reunion. Mary wanted the reunion to include Scherrie and Cindy. As Mary was prone to doing she gave interviews to the press basically making it sound like it was a serious issue.
When Mary finally approached Berry he had just lost Ross to RCA Records and it was a sore spot to talk Supremes. Also, the Temptations Reunion, while successful was not without serious headaches with in-group squabbles and singers not showing up. All of this ate into the profits. It was obvious that Gordy was not in favor of this.
As far as album talks with Scherrie singing leads, I had never heard this. I don't know if it went that far. Also in 1982, dePasse was working with Gwen Gordy to try and desperately re-ignite the recording careers of High Inergy, who had been floundering for years. A tour with Diana Ross was planned but never executed. All in all both ideas went down the toilet.
Interesting info re High Inergy as an opening act for Diana in the early 80s.
Before Diana's 1982 World Tour, I recall reading that the Jones Girls were going to be the opening act and would be doing backup vocals as well. This was a surprise as they had had a few hits by then. It didn't happen but now I wonder if the story I read actually meant High Inergy?
Diana Ross attended a dinner at Gwen Gordy's home to meet with and discuss High Inergy touring Europe with her and get them some exposure. During the dinner she was critical of the girls, especially lead singer Barbara. The night before they were to embark on the tour the girls spent the night at Gwen's, kissed their families goodbye and woke up the next morning to the news that Ross left without them. The reason? She claimed she could not get them insured. What was more likely is she didn't want to help another group of competitors.
That must have been quite a disappointment for them.
As I think of it, I don't remember Diana having an opening act at any of the 80s concerts of hers that I attended. In fact, some ads would say something like "No opening act. Miss Ross' concert will start promptly at 7:30pm."
Had it transpired, i was thinking more the Supremes as support then a reunion tour. It would have generated tons of publicity, with the Supremes to benefit more.
As Diana had to be practically begged to appear on Motown 25, i agree the likelihood wouldn’t have been great.
I’m sorry but that story doesn’t make sense at all.
Has there ever been a SUCCESSFUL reunion of a 50s/60s/70s girl group? Perhaps LaBelle? But look at groups like The Shirelles; Shirley, Beverly, and Doris all had their own groups. Ronnie hit the road with new Ronettes in the 70s and 80s, and Martha has had :hundreds: of Vandellas.
Martha has reunited with Annette and Rosalind and performed with them for years at one point.
The Ronettes did reunite in a way for the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame induction. Nedra lost interest in performing even before the group broke up back in the day and Estelle had mental issues.
The problem with doing these docs, and I know because I faced it with E TV, is Universal not letting the producers use the music. Without the music you basically have no story. When I did E TRUE HOLLYWOOD DIANA ROSS, the network was allowed to use I think three or four clips from performance tapes. When I did the Mysteries and Scandals on Flo the network was denied any usage of the music. When Berry Gordy sold Motown he still has a stake in Jobete...and where it come to himself, Ross and Marvin Gaye he is usually unlyielding.
Hi Bayou--what was DR's problem with Barbara Mitchell? She seemed nice and had a terrific voice.