It's is disgusting. It is also clear that race does play a very significant role in police using excessive, deadly force.
Here's an article about your former mayor, Rudy Giuliani. He amped up his BS after the shooting.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2706349
Didn't "stop and frisk" start under them? The Department of Justice advised them that it's unconstitutional but Bratton [[and DiBlasio) are refusing to open their e-mails.
Another Apartheid utility.
Attachment 11477
Why do you think that Caucasians on these threads, who live in the same [[or similar) large US cities, agree with what Jerry and Splanky and other African Americans are saying, and that they are NOT exaggerating.
What can we do to help fix the situation? It is a tremendously difficult situation. The children are taught this hatred by their parents. They come to school with these ideas, and are not open to listening to their teachers. They would need to live with their perceived enemy for a long time, and work together against a common enemy, to find out that each other are human, the same as they are. That's what needs to happen with The Palestinians and Israelis and Hindus and Muslims, and Christians, Moslems and Jews, and all other groups who don't trust each other. Humans have instincts that come from the time when "survival of the fittest" [[natural selection) was operating. They naturally divide into smaller [[more intimate) groups, whose interests are more shared than with the wider populations. If the population of this World eventually all speak one single language [[Chinese? English?), and evolve into one culture, it would break up into different factions of self-interest groups, who would believe that the greater portion of the population was less interested in their personal interests, and more in their own local interests. So, they would make new "enemies". It's a survival technique. Who is better at knowing one's own personal interests, and more willing to fight for them than the immediate people who share those interests?
I can't imagine millions of Humans getting along in harmony. I don't believe it is in their nature to do so. I have met thousands of very nice, empathetic people in my life, who live by "The Golden Rule". I try to hang around with such people. But, I've also met thousands of irrational, mean, angry, and hateful people, as well. I have tried to be friendly towards them, understand them, show them tolerance. That helps, sometimes. But, in many cases, it does not. We all have to try to make The World a better place, by being positive with as many people as possible. That positivity will be absorbed as much as is possible. It will bring better results than our being negative. But, we can only do what we can do, and hope the results are as good as possible.
ALL things change eventually. I would have expected hatred of Europeans [["Caucasians") against the darker peoples [[so-called "races") to die out, or diminish greatly over a hundred years ago. But it hasn't happened. Same for Christians and Muslims hatred for The Jews, and Europeans' despising of The Gypsies.
People are still hating ME, personally, for killing their god, who was actually one of my people [[the same people they purport to hate). How does one combat such irrationality and madness?
You meet those people, find common ground, show them that you are human, and become friends. I am Jewish, with about 1/3 of my family in Israel. I have lived in more than 10 Arab Muslim countries for over 15 years. I have MANY Palestinian, Jordanian, Egyptian, Sudani, Moroccan friends [[mostly Moslem, but some Christian). I have many Christian friends from many countries. I have several German friends. My best friend in The World [[and business partner) is a German, whose parents were adults during The Nazi rule, and fully one half of my family was murdered by The Nazis.
I have worked for Native Canadian and Native American tribal governments, and have many friends from working on those reservations. We all do what we can.
But old ways and what parents teach to their children have strong roots, and are difficult to change. I hope it doesn't take a bloody revolution in USA or all over Europe to change ethnic hatred. And worse, that those hatreds disappear, but new ones come in to take their place.
Have you seen this? What do you guys think of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GydCnn_bUeg
Actually, in international terms, The US has a fairly average murder rate .. as can be seen on the list at this link .....
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...million-people
The most recent figures at that link [[for 2010) have The US coming in at #99 with a murder rate of 42.01 per Million residents. The most murderous countries are Honduras with a rate of 913.5 murders per million in 2011, followed by El Salvador, The Ivory Coast and Jamaica. Jamaica's murder rate in 2010 was 529.39 per million .. about 13 times the rate in The US.
The UK ranks #157 with a murder rate of 11.68 per million in 2009 [[about a quarter of that in The USA).
The US does rank high if only economically/technologically advanced "Western" countries are included, as most of the countries at the top of the list are in South and Central America or in Africa.
Roger
Attachment 11480
That is very telling. It doesn't make me feel very good knowing that USA is ONLY as dangerous as the average war and revolution-torn 3rd World dictatorship, given that I still have some family and a few friends living there, and I also spend a few months a year there, myself.
This demands an answer.
In the US, pulling someone over because they have a "wide set nose" is considered a violation of their Constitutional rights. As is pulling them over for simply being non-White in the wrong area. It happens frequently and although complaints are affirmed through the courts, it happens consistently with no ramifications to the offending agencies.
Again, in this case and many others, the car was pulled over because the driver was Black. Read the first posts in this thread. They have the time to do things like this and since there are no consequences, they do. YouTube is full of videos of it. Bully for the Brits with their computers, but in the US they don't need a computer to help concoct reasons to pull people over.Quote:
In reality, the time and administration work involved means that a light being inoperative, or other minor offence, often does not result in the driver being stopped.
The police officers are most likely to respond when the way the vehicle is being driven arouses suspicion - and especially when immediately alerted by computer that a passing vehicle has a suspect registration.
The passenger complied with the officer's instructions and was killed for doing so. Is that firm enough or worthy of concern?Quote:
Most incidents when motorists are stopped are dealt with courteously, and with an appropriate degree of firmness.
US police training typically provides 60 hours of legal training in ~nine months of training in the academies. A far cry from the four years that lawyers spend trying to learn the same laws. Not just that, but very few police departments have diversity training or emphasis on how to do their jobs without profiling.Quote:
All forces train their officers to see that the law is observed by everyone, irrespective of ethnicity - for example, of drivers and/or passengers. The police are expected to observe this, and all nationalities living within the UK are expected to understand and accept this. Unless circumstances in individual cases can be proved otherwise, it is simply the law of the land.
And when I mention that slavery was a situation that had White people standing over Black people with whips for centuries in our country, they say "well, that wasn't me". How about White peoples destroying the Incan and Mayan cultures, killing six million Jews in concentration camps, and ruling over India and African nations with guns and iron thumbs?Quote:
All that said, it is a hard fact that, for whatever reason, reported crime in London committed by black people is significantly higher than the percentage of black people in that population. That is a statistic to be read by anyone, whether they be white, black or from any other background.
It should not prejudice the response of the police officers in London, but there is an understandable need to be especially vigilant of suspicious behaviour by some black people, when obliged to make a swift judgement in any situation. It is their job to do so.
You'll suggest that I'm reaching with this response, but typically [[again), White people say "well, I didn't do that". It appears that you're saying that a Black lawyer [[or president) should be looked at with a curious eye because "for whatever reason, reported crime by Black people is significantly higher than the percentage of Black people in the population". And what is "suspicious behavior"? We have a phenomenon here known as "driving while Black", which for too many cops is a reason to pull someone over. So, would I be a suspect in spite of the fact that I've never committed a crime in England or the US?
They're even required to carry sidearms when they are off-duty.Quote:
The one essential difference between the US and UK national police forces is the fact that UK officers, male and female, do not carry guns, unless in exceptional circumstances.
My understanding is that the US officers seem to carry guns on all occasions, even for traffic offences?
There is typically no psychological training involved with police recruits and often none available after cops shoot people in the line of duty. Black suspects [[even when they aren't suspected of crimes) are killed at a frequency that is three times that of White suspects in similar situations. Black men account for 6% of the US population but they are 40% of the unarmed people killed by police. Unarmed. Forget the two cases this week when they had guns but were not a threat to use them. I'm talking about people who in some cases are walking away and clearly no threat to the officers who are compelled to use deadly force only when protecting their lives or the life of others.Quote:
A gun in the hands of an irrational person, no matter what their ethnic background may be, or what uniform they may be wearing, is likely to lead to random action, with tragic results. We don't seem to be hearing too much from our black friends on the forum in the US about the white victims in similar, tragic circumstances. It surely must happen??
And White people are also murdered by police but with less frequency. There has been a dustup recently about Dylan Noble, a White man who was shot after a short pursuit in San Diego. He exited his truck under gunpoint and was shot with his hands up. After he lay on the ground for 14 seconds, they shot him to death without attempting to call for medical assistance or even to actually arrest him. It turns out, he was not the suspect that they were looking for and he was unarmed. Black Lives Matter has brought attention to his death although national media has largely ignored it. So yeah, it's a bigger problem than just cops killing Black people. Sadly, it's a bigger problem for us than for other Americans.
There are more guns in the hands of White people than Black people. And if you think it's appalling from a distance, come hang out for a few weeks and take a closer look.Quote:
Recent events involving the police in the US, particularly concerning some black victims, is appalling to those of us here, when viewed from our distance.
It seems to be the widespread possession of guns in the US which has led to these situations, not simply that the victims were black.
Why'd you bring peace into the conversation? Until Wednesday night, there was not a violent act associated with the "Black Lives Matter" movement. We've been extremely peaceful. Most cops killed in the past decade and beyond were killed by White suspects.Quote:
It also does seem that the black population could and should support their 'brothers' far more positively, working together without the use of violence, on both sides of the Atlantic.
For example, can our black friends here confirm if they have ever trained or worked for any police force, or any emergency work which serves the general public - which includes their own race?
And no, I haven't worked with community action organizations. So you have me there.
No, Black cops are just as violent as White cops. More over, in places like Baltimore. Cops should be required to live within the communities that they serve. Otherwise they patrol like members of an occupying force as opposed to civilians who are there to preserve order. They have totally alienated citizens in some communities by harassing people for small or no reason and those folks no longer work with them to report criminal activity. It's ridiculous.Quote:
Also, do our black friends here think that more black officers would lessen the incidence of other black people being shot dead for what certainly appears to be tragically wrong reasons?
Or, is it far more expedient for our black friends here to regard all black people [[including themselves) as 'victims', and simply to regard [[generally white) police officers as 'pigs', as quoted?
I call cops who kill people without cause "pigs". I'm offended that you suggest that I refer to White cops as pigs. You've never read that and the fact that you assumed there was a race angle toward my use of the word tells me a bit about your worldview. Sadly, many White people think that this movement is because Black people want to complain about something that most White people refuse to acknowledge. Even some of our - to borrow your words - White friends here at Soulful Detroit.
The current movement has roots in an incident that occurred in Ferguson, Missouri. The police force in Ferguson had 47 White cops and two Black cops on it, even though the community is 70% Black. There was no shortage of Black recruits or available candidates within the community.Quote:
In the UK, the black members of the population would seem to form a smaller percentage of the general population than in the US. For whatever reason, it seems difficult to recruit a sufficient percentage black officers to adequately represent the black population on both sides of the Atlantic, although I believe there has been some success in some US regions.
It is a hard reality that police forces, [[as with the general population), are indeed predominantly white, and it can be a hard, dangerous and potentially fatal job for some officers, at least at times. It must be assumed that most officers who fall below the required standard will then indeed be white.
Continued from above:
I'm curious as to why you say this. I don't care whether any of my fellow posters is White. Please explain how we are being racist toward our White friends by saying that it's time to reform criminal justice in America. This was singularly the most offensive thing that I've read on these forums [[and that's saying a lot).Quote:
It is also hard to read the comments of some of our black friends here, in emphasising not the common problems but the differences between black and white, without feeling that they are being very racist themselves towards their white friends here.
When you hear us say "stop shooting us", it's because it continues to occur 150 years beyond the abolition of slavery. To be sure, there are thousands of White people who have taken up this cause, and I greatly appreciate their sacrifice of time and dedication toward ensuring civil rights for all.
I've considered it, but to what end? I avoid situations in my personal life where I'm likely to need a gun. It's my experience and understanding that guns are used too soon when other options for de-escalation are available and that's the whole point with this issue. If a cop finds me with a gun, legally or not, I'm much more likely to be the next victim. Hell, if history is any indicator, if they think a cell phone "looks like" a gun and are compelled to shoot people for texting, what would they do if they actually found a gun on me?Quote:
If that is the case, members of both races might then consider themselves as victims.
Instead of using our fingers on our keyboards, we might then wish to put guns in our hands.
And then where, exactly, does it go from there.....?
I appreciate your post but it clearly revealed very large differences between experiences and perspective between you and me. So that you'll be aware, my brother-in-law was killed by a cop who was dispatched to resolve a dispute between him and his girlfriend. They shot him when - according to them - he reached for a gun. Personally, I don't think it happened that way. But it's their word against my suspicion, because they also killed his girlfriend and there's no witness remaining. By the way, it was the second time that the cop who killed him had dispensed deadly force while on the job.
Beew away in the last three or four days, and need to catch up on this thread. But, has anyone yet mentioned the update about the cop who shot Philando Castile? First, he says he shot him because it was about the presence of a gun, not his race. Well, the problem with that is cops panic when they see a Black man. That's a fact. There is no doubt in my mind that had the driver been white, he would be alive and well today. Why? because the cop then claimed that he pulled Castile over because he looked like someone who was about to commit a crime. Oh, but, what about that alleged broken taillight? He just admitted he racially profiled him. Add that to his itchy trigger finger, and you've got a racially-motivated shooting.
What further angers me is people are [[rightfully) honoring cops being shot, but where was all of this support and holding vigils when the two innocent men were shot? And, why is it OK for white people to brandish guns, but as soon as a black man does, he's labeled a suspect, gets his photo plastered all over the media, and interrogated?
No justice, man! And, the far-right and Fox still goes after the Black Lives Matter movement, calling them a terrorist group. Not that I condone it, but I can see why Micah Johnson went radical.
She's right regarding people protesting when shooting is justified. But to suggest that we should look the other way when Freddie Gray's neck is broken as he ran away from another "humble" [[Baltimore cops call the arrest of people for offenses such as looking them in their eyes while walking down the street - or avoiding eye contact with them - a humble), when Eric Garner was choked to death for selling loose cigarettes when all they had to say was "move along or you'll be arrested", LaQuan McDonald was shot for walking down the middle of the street, Tamir Rice is killed in less than 2 seconds after a pig sees him with a BB gun, or a dozen other names that I'm upset to know in this country of 300 million.
When people try to suggest that Black on Black crime is a justification for police brutality, it blows my mind. Here's why: If I shoot you, then I will be arrested and tried in a court of law. If a cop shoots you, in well over 95% of the time, there will be no punishment, let alone charges filed. And when charges are filed, they are typically less than those filed against a civilian and the cop is found not guilty more often than not.
DO NOT CONFUSE THESE TWO ISSUES. People who protest when someone precipitated their own death by attacking the police with deadly force are idiots. But they have rules and guidelines for how to do their jobs. When they violate those rules, wouldn't you think they should be held to a higher standard? Well, they are not. In fact, they are encouraged to be more aggressive by a system that protects them even when they have committed blatant crimes while in uniform.
I agree with a lot of what she said in the video, but she's confused. Her perspective will change when it happens to her.
Soulster, the transcript of the stop has him telling the dispatcher that he's going to stop the car because the driver looks like a suspect in a robbery because of his "wide-set nose". I'm itching to find out what robbery he was concerned about. I'm thinking that there are too many robbers who commit crimes with four-year olds in the back seat. He absolutely profiled him and murdered him for being Black.
All that I want from this mess is open and transparent hearings and investigations when it occurs. Why are union members on the investigating commissions for use of force? Why are the hearings held in secret? And to that end, why don't cops police themselves? When you hear that "they aren't all bad", it's bullshit. Because if they don't correct the problem of bad police when they know about it, they allow bad cops to do what they do. And you will find that when cops report their brothers in blue for stepping over the line, the reporting cop is flushed out through a campaign of behavior that literally puts his life in danger. They find rats in their lockers. They make calls for assistance in dangerous situations that go unanswered. They find other cops parked outside their houses, observing them 24 hours a day. Their wives and children are given frivolous traffic tickets. Facebook messages begin to appear accusing them of foul play and infidelity.
I'm not trying to hear about good cops because good ones are fired or quit soon after they break ranks. I'm not saying that I'm not extremely aggrieved over the five cops who were killed in Dallas; I feel horrible about that. But the police are a necessary evil and criminal justice reform is long overdue.
I did not see the transcript, and heard about what the cop stated second-hand, but thank you. Talking about his nose is still racial profiling!
Right! And, just because the cop is Latino make no difference. There are plenty of racist or biased Latinos out there. You have dark skin? You're a suspect! Same goes for the legal gun possession I mentioned.Quote:
I'm itching to find out what robbery he was concerned about. I'm thinking that there are too many robbers who commit crimes with four-year olds in the back seat. He absolutely profiled him and murdered him for being Black.
Some cities, like Los Angeles, now have citizen review boards.Quote:
All that I want from this mess is open and transparent hearings and investigations when it occurs. Why are union members on the investigating commissions for use of force?
Exactly! A "good" cop is just a cop who doesn't narc on his comrades.Quote:
Why are the hearings held in secret? And to that end, why don't cops police themselves? When you hear that "they aren't all bad", it's bullshit. Because if they don't correct the problem of bad police when they know about it, they allow bad cops to do what they do.
Yup It's intimidation. Why is it that cops have to have such a deep trust? Is it so they will get backed up if they do something illegal?Quote:
And you will find that when cops report their brothers in blue for stepping over the line, the reporting cop is flushed out through a campaign of behavior that literally puts his life in danger. They find rats in their lockers. They make calls for assistance in dangerous situations that go unanswered. They find other cops parked outside their houses, observing them 24 hours a day. Their wives and children are given frivolous traffic tickets. Facebook messages begin to appear accusing them of foul play and infidelity.
The Baton Rouge DA just recused himself of the case pending the federal investigation into the shooting there. It turns out that the DA is good friends of the parents of the cop who shot Alton Sterling, who just also happen to be former Baton Rouge cops. Quite telling, especially when you consider that that cop, and his partner, have been the subject of several internal investigations for misconduct. Police corruption and collusion.Quote:
I'm not trying to hear about good cops because good ones are fired or quit soon after they break ranks. I'm not saying that I'm not extremely aggrieved over the five cops who were killed in Dallas; I feel horrible about that. But the police are a necessary evil and criminal justice reform is long overdue.
And, i'll bet none of the cops involved in the shootings are from the areas they patrol. They don't know the locals, and it has been proven time and time again that community policing works.
The NRA is usually quick to defend the Second Amendment, but they are mysteriously silent whenever it comes to people of color legally possessing and carrying firearms. They say they don't care who you are, but the NRA is overwhelmingly white, and everyone knows why white people arm themselves: to protect themselves from the black people.
I've had two radical NRA members admit to me that they literally write gun laws for the legislators to pass. With that kind of inside track, it is impossible to get anything to change in this country.
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/..._medium=social
What do you think guys?
I think that if I was to ask about crossing the thin blue line to report a cop who is tarnishing the shield by abusing suspects and ignoring protocol, I'd never again receive a positive employment review regardless of how well I performed my job. That man is uniquely positioned to earn the public trust by initiating reforms but he'd rather tell us how hard their jobs are then enlist half a million willing citizens who want nothing more than to trust the police. I heard that Dallas has a relatively progressive and transparent police department, but I know of abuses that they did as well.
Chris Dorner was a rising star until he told his superiors about the misdeeds of two fellow LAPD offices. Rather than discipline then, the department treated him as persona non grata and began pushing out the door. His union rep let management abuse him without supporting him. When he lost his dream job, he snapped and killed the daughter of his union rep and her fiance in addition to another officer. It's a fascinating story.
I saw that on CNN an hour ago, but, he's right. Change comes best from the inside. Here's the catch: the police department has to hire the new Black academy graduates. You can have every available Black person complete the police academy, but they still may not get the jobs.
Yet, ABC News just played the audio and stopped short of the comment to support the cop's lawyer's contention that it was a legal stop. Had they played three seconds more, it totally reveals that the stop was based on race. They showed a photo of the guy who robbed somebody the day before and as suspected, there was little resemblance beyond the color of their skin.
I don't know if you are old enough to remember, but I am. Right at the tail end of the sixties and into the early seventies, police depts. and other governmental agencies had this push to hire minorities in order to "change the system from within". It's been more than 40 years and look at the situation today!
It any of you [[especially our English friends) want a first person perspective of the issue, please visit David Simon's web site. He was a police officer and journalist in Baltimore before writing and producing incredible television dramas like "The Wire", "Homicide: A Year On The Killing Streets", and "The Corner". He is brutally forthright and has seen things that would destroy most people's idea of the noble policeman. The commentaries on his site are incredible. Link below goes to his thoughts after the first cop was freed in the Freddy Gray trials.
http://davidsimon.com/aint-no-justice-its-just-us/
Ivy Jo Hunter shared this video with me. See if you can see this.
https://www.facebook.com/micah.p.lor...9286125807920/
The video is by Micah Pierce.
Attachment 11482
But those added minority officers had to bend over backwards to look like they were doing their jobs "by the book", and not giving their fellow "hoodies" extra breaks and consideration, or they'd be laid off or fired after reprimands. So, it didn't help nearly as much as it should have.
Mary Wilson speaks
http://www.iloveoldschoolmusic.com/e...ks-knew-place/
My best friend when I was growing up Dad was a cop. He was mean and did everything by the book. Other friend I grew up with Dad was a city detective, he was more relaxed in his dealings with people. Overall, it did not help as much,but put a public picture up that said.....we have changed!
Black cops in Baltimore and LA see among the worst. Presumably because those with White partners can do the dirty work without being called racist. Others are simply on a power trip, making up for things their past that affected them significantly. Cops who live in other communities tend to treat the people the areas they patrol with disrespect.
Here's something I have to say and to be honest and fair. The Suffolk County Long Island cops were the very best I ever had interaction with over a 20 year period! True, they are the highest paid in the nation, but those guys were all friendly, professional and most of all helpful to me whenever I had reason to interact with them. They changed flat tires at least 4 times in rush hour traffic and once late at night for me. They would never write me up for tail lights or expired registration,etc. They came running to my house one day after 9-11 when my landline got stuck and called 911 by mistake. They were there when some jerk stole the halogen headlights off of my car, etc,etc,etc. I always had great admiration for the Suffolk County Police force because they lived in the community. They knew about what life was like living on Long Island and they always treated me with respect.
They never approached me with their guns drawn or with the attitude that I'm black and must be up to something. After experiences with other police like the Chicago police that searched me, frisked me and went all through my car in front of a crowd of people because they said they believed I had a gun, I had a greater appreciation for Suffolk County cops overall.