Trust you? You don't even know what you are talking about. Trust you LOL!!!!
[QUOTE=Roberta75;285610]If Pretty baby had hit written all over it trust me it would have got out of Detroit city limit and charted. Butter Popcorn did not have hit potential imo and your off in fantasay land again lol.
Buttered popcorn was a novelty record with silly lyrcs, but if barney ales would have been given the green light to,promote it it would have made the charts, that record had potential. Just because berry diidnt like it doesnt mean the rest of the public didnt it was not heard for it to be a hit. I remember seeing buttered popcorn in the record bin for 39cents in 1964 on tamla i never heard it so ii bought 3 copies and gave two of them to my friends i said to myself that the same lady whom sang the outro to long gone lover, cause i had the album wdolg i read the liner notes and found out the lady who sang the top harmony was FLORENCE BALLARD, and did a fab job on buttered popcorn inspite ov its greasey and salty what do u like u lyrics
for the most part hdh were the only producers who knew how to use ross's unique voice and the only group of writers who could consistently give them hit material. i am not convinced the supremes could have become a powerhouse group without them. same goes for the tops. a whole lotta magic happened when hdh and the supremes hooked up.
Diana was going to be a "star" no matter who was singing behind her. You could have put two male singers behind her and Mr. Gordy was not going to stop until he had his dream. As a package the Supremes were good to look at but let us not forget that in the studio sometimes Diana was also lead and background vocals, ie; "You Keep Me Hanging On". In listening to HDH talk about WDOLG I often wondered if a version with Mary singing actually existed and what it would have sounded like. People always talk about all the Supremes songs that tanked before WDOLG but in reality it was one album; "Meet The Supremes" which by now I am sure its gold. Mary was very pretty on stage and still is but it takes more than just a pretty face to deliver a song and be an entertainer. Unfortunately, there is not enough out there to question Florence's potential and to give it a fair shake.
No one got trampled in The Supremes. I wonder how many girls in The Brewster Projects, when asked if they would like to sing bg ONLY in the biggest group in US history and become famous worldwide and make a ton of dough would say, "Oh NO! THAT wouldn't be fair. I'M not going to be trampled on. I'll go back to the projects, thanks anyway." Berry only signed The primettes because of Ross. There would be no Supremes without her. Zero. No Smokey audition. No Berry's interest asking to hear Ross' song again. Nothing. Berry didn't like Mary's voice and thought Flo was too ghetto. He didn't HAVE to like them. He told them what he wanted: Diana the sole lead. They agreed. They should have left Motown or shut up about it after they agreed. No one held a gun to their heads to sing bg - they agreed. People act like Berry had an obligation to support talent he didn't believe in. It's nuts. No one sought the services of Mary and/or Flo after they left Motown either. No one at all. HDH started Invictus right there in Detroit and could have signed either. Gil & Ross had to fight Berry to get people back in after The Copa and again to get Mary her spot on the song -he agreed only after Ross was sick and told Berry she needed the rest. Berry didn't WANT Flo or Mary to have any leads or to speak in interviews. . Miss Ross didn't have to give up People - she wanted Mary & Flo to have something and Mary knows that. She stabbed Ross in the back for it. Those are facts. No one at Motown felt Mary or Flo "was competition" for Ross - that BS came later by innuendo in Dreamgirl where Mary talked about People being taken away at The Copa, but forget to add that Flo would be singing it again just 3 weeks later - AND that Mary would be duetting on it with Flo on it. I wonder why Mary would forget to say that????? Hmmmmmm..... Berry & Diana did nothing sneaky, devious or underhanded - the agenda persued was exactly the agenda presented /agreed to DMF in 1963. They should have left then. Not much would be different in the long run: Ross would still have gotten rave reviews for her show last night in Atlanta.The Supremes had 3 31's and two hit albums before they were on Ed Sullivan. I think Flo & Mary were grea - the best possible Supremes - but not essential. Harvey Fuqua told me A LOT about the workings of the group, and his version doesn't jell with Marys, but it does with Gil & Colly's and Mrs Powell - ALL of which I have on tape.
QUOTE=BigAl;285603]Goodness knows I'm no champion of Diane by any stretch of the imagination, but it can't be argued that she was the best choice to lead the group for the kind of crossover success which Gordy envisioned. In addition, she had the obsessive drive to push herself tirelessly to get to the top, no matter what it took [[and, sadly, no matter who might get trampled in the process). But, as they say, that's showbiz. HDH must be credited for how they were able to tailor material brilliantly to her reedy voice to maximum effect. Mary and Florence were indispensable in making the group unique, however. Someone once termed The Supremes as being slick [[Diane), sexy [[Mary), and Sassy [[Flo), and that interplay was essential. Diane as a solo could not have managed it, nor could Mary or Flo, either, for that matter. It's regrettable [[nay, almost criminal) that the latter two were eventually so underutilized. It was my opinion, then and now, that, while Diane was the best choice to lead the group on the singles, no contest, Mary and Flo ought to have been allowed plenty of leads on albums and especially in live performance, rather the just the occasional one-off. This would not have hampered Diane's success one bit, but that wasn't the plan as Diane and Berry saw it, and, for better or for worse, they were in charge.[/QUOTE]
That's right. Go ahead and throw away whole chunks of the story in order to continue to foster your "Diana Ross Agenda!" LOL! First of all when Florence asked Mary and Mary asked Diane to join the Primettes, they were not World Famous or knew they would earn millions [[most of which they would never see or enjoy themselves.......). The only things the Smokey Robinson audition yielded the girls were Smokey stealing guitarist Marv Tarplin away and Berry Gordy brushing them off by telling them to go finish high school!
The girls started hanging out a Hitsville everyday until they needed THEM to do handclaps on a Mary Wells record. Then THEYwere used for background vocals on another record,etc,etc until Berry noticed that THEY were serious about singing and signed THEM to Motown in January 1961. That's what really happened! There would have never been a Supremes were it not for Florence Ballard who started the Primettes. Diane would not even have had a recording career because her father was against it until Paul Williams and Eddie Kendricks persuaded him to let her join the Primettes!
You claim that Berry Gordy did not like Mary Wilson's voice. Berry gave Mary Wilson the song "Baby Don't Go", a song he himself had written for her to record. He not only recorded it on her, he released it on the album "Meet the Supremes". He never told Florence that she sounded too ghetto. That sounds racist coming from you to begin with. True he wanted to crossover to white audiences, so he used Diane's novelty sounding voice to do it, backed by Florence and Mary. How were Mary and Florence going to just leave Motown when they were under contract? Why on Earth would Berry Gordy put them under contract if he did not like the way either of them sang? You make no sense whatsoever.
Lol how trrue! Even Diana has praised Florences voice. Didn't Mr. Ross think daughter Barbara had a better singing voice?
Wouda, Couda, Shouda !! The article complimented the three woman as a group with perfect harmony. Harmony that was not utilized enough. Their hits were done with a lead singer and background singers. The HDH songs are still being sung by some members of that group fifty years later. Would these songs be remembered fifty years later if a Supreme other than Diana sang the lead on the record? I guess we will never know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYNUnJbyE7U
It's too bad this thread looks in danger of going South.
I thought it was a great article. Definitely, the 3-part harmonies added much to the early Supremes' success. There's no doubt about it. This is the group my beloved grandmother used to say about, "I don't know why, but I just love those 3 girls!"
As the years went by, I know that myself and many others I knew bemoaned the more antiseptic sound of the records and the backgrounds Of course, we had no idea who the Andantes were; we just wondered why the backgrounds became so "thin". Of course, we attributed it to Gordy's promotion of Diane's celebrity status and to a large degree, I think that was true.
So in my opinion, the Supremes' career with Diane on lead there definitely existed a "before" and an "after." The early days all 3 Supremes were known, loved and sang their you know what off. The later days the background singers were obviously relegated to the, well, background. I think the group suffered from this as they lost a lot of their group identity.
But that was clearly the intention to help Diane springboard to her own solo spot.
"Better" voices is a tricky concept. Certainly, singers can be technically better than others. Florence may have had a stronger voice, though on some performances I find her voice lacks excitement. [["O Holy Night" comes to mind; it's a turgid arrangement and Florence's voice sounds dull and lifeless.) I don't see how Mary could be viewed as having a technically better voice than Diane, but I'm not an expert at judging such things.
But Diane's voice obviously had the quirkiness, the X-factor, the sound that people remembered. I remember one critic wrote once of her "Ross got more mileage out of her sighs and pauses for breath than she did her own vocals at times." She knew how to put over a song, and her voice was obviously the most memorable.
To me, this takes nothing away from the others. As someone else pointed out, it's unlikely the group would have had the success it did without Diane. The "new" Supremes were a different group which added their own strengths with Jean, and then of course later with Scherrie and Susaye.
Clearly the latter day lineups all represented different phases of the girls' career. But I think even the Diane years can be divided into two phases, one extremely strong, and the later one, where the group became secondary and Diane was clearly in the forefront. The material, although tailor made for her, was largely weaker aside from "Love Child." I like "Someday" now but thought it dull and monotonous back then. But clearly Gordy was just searching for a way for Diane to exit the group with a hit song behind her, and certainly "Someday" was perfect for that.
"Bobbie" lol. You seriously think of yourself as the spokesperson for the Supremes or this great Ross insider. Dianes sisters name is Barbara unless she personaly ask you to call her "Bobbie" lol Which we all know she didnt and if Barbara knew the malice and filth you say about her sister Diane on youtube she would probably kick you where the sun dont shine.
you are are real real funny. Bobby. lol.
DREAMGIRL: MY LIFE AS A SUPREME - MIDDLE OF PAGE 30
"She [[flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called The Primes and their manager about forming a girls group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited."
IS THAT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU? Flo started NOTHING. Mary invited NO ONE. This story has been told a thousand times the same way, girlfriend.
You can call me racist all you want, everyone who knows me - including my mixed kids, don't think of me that way. I used "ghetto" because I wouldn't use the term Harvey used to describe Flo. "Ghetto" is much more complementary.
Not only did Berry not like Mary's voice - I'm told he just plain didn't care for Mary period. No one in Artist Development was in favor of giving Mary a lead. Even May's friend Cholly. Like Taylor Cox said, I'll put my money on Diana because I wanna get paid of Friday." Berry told Mary to her face that she couldn't sing - it's no secret. Mary was not allowed to lead The 70's Supremes - only Lynda & Jean were - if it was up to Mary, per her book, they had to cancel.
I've said many times I love Mary's voice on ballads, Love Baby Don't Go and LOVED Flo in the group. This is in response to Diana trampling anyone - that's total BS. Berry, Harvey, Gil, Maxine and Cholly all agreed that it was all about Diana. That doesn't diminish the others per se', but the ONLY reason Mary got any solos at all - AT ALL - it at the behest of Gil and Diana. The only thing getting trampled is the truth. Diana didn't WANT all the responsibility on her every night, all night, 3x a night. She was exhausted. Gil knew it. And, sadly, Mary knows this too, just forgot to put it in her book somehow. Well, with SO much to remember............
One of the Supreme books stated that Betty was able to keep Diana in line when they were the Primettees which helped group cohesion.
I've been saying the same thing for years, Ken. So little was put into the group's recordings after HDH left. I don't know why. Those hodge podge albums from 68&69 are awful - with Diana hoare on some and lousy material on others.
No one knows who is better - only who they like. One can assume with the phenomenal success of The Supremes and Ross' subsequent successes for 45 years, she was the "best" choice to lead The Supremes envisioned by Berry Gordy.
He recorded one song on her and not another for 17 years. TOLD her she couldn't sing. she said. All I'm saying is what Harvey & Gil told me Berry thought. They built the Supremes' show. Just the facts. Clearly Mary was good on her solos. Gordy still didn't like her. He wouldn't support the 80's Supremes if Mary sang leads. None of this is news to you. All I'm saying is she had many chances to leave and go where she could be happy, treated to her liking and sing all the leads she wanted. Gordy would have happily released her and Flo in '63 I'm sure and added Sandra Tilley, Marlene, Barbara Randolf - whoever. None would be as good as Mary & Flo, but I think essentially, their success would have been similar - just as Smokey said.
Ahhh , he told her that to get her to stop pestering him on one day! He told people he would not marry Diane because she was too much of a bitch. Does that mean he meant that?
Gil nor Harvey were not members of the Supremes. Did Gil ever get his drinking under control?
I never said or ever will say Mary lied about anything. She simply could not remember all the details from so many years ago. She had to interview many people and receive info from many sources to document many events to an incredible life story she has lived. Mary's book is the Gospel when it comes to the Supremes . Anyone that doesn't like it simply does not like the fact that it had to cast Diana Ross in a negative light in order to tell the truth behind their story.
I have no reason to lie, nor does Mary Wilson. Now Diana Ross fanatics have plenty of reasons to lie because that book destroyed Diane for good in America and she has not recovered yet. She had a chance to tell her side,but refused to let Mary interview her for the book and the rest is history.
Oh, so Mary couldn't remember how The Primettes began or how she met Diana Ross? Is that what you are saying? Maxine and Flo had the same memory problems? Paul & Eddie had the same memory probems? Diana had the same memory problems?
I think YOU have a problem! You remember you: the guy who stated Mary got her Hollywood Palace solo because the asst director told Berry Gordy he wanted it to be fair and then you kicked that dude out of MWOS for checking with Mary? LOLOLOL, Sorry Missy, I think it's your memory.
@Marv2, as much as I love Mary and believe her books to be great contributions to the Supremes legacy, there are some inaccuracies in them. Mary, for example, never revealed that Diane had helped her save her house from foreclosure even though it came out later [[I forget where). That seemed to be a deliberate omission so as not to give Diane credit where credit was due. An omission may not be a lie per se, but it certainly led to a misrepresentation of, as we say, a "material fact." She did leave that out, didn't she? Tell me if I'm wrong.
I think Mary and Diane are like sisters in a love-hate relationship. No matter what, they have decades-old hurts from long ago that bubble to the surface now and then.
I mostly respect Mary's very detailed accounting of the early years. Her recall of names, dates and places was phenomenal. I believe she mentions in the book she'd kept a journal. No one could have filled her in on these early details as accurately as if she'd kept the information herself.
Kenneth as much as you try.... oh forget it. I'll just get to the point. I know you know what chronological order means. Mary's first book went from 1944 [[the year she was born) up to 1970 when Diana Ross left the group with a small summary of Florence's passing and Motown 25. Her second book covered roughly 1970 -90. That $30,000 loan she took out from Diane and repaid with interest happened in 1981 and Mary Wilson does cover it in her second book "Supreme Faith" so I don't know what you are talking about.
It took Diane up to about 2007 to acknowledge and thank Mary Wilson for the contributions Mary had made to her career. Now I want to go out and enjoy my Memorial Day weekend. Take care and good luck in coming up with something new that is truthful!
One more thing. If Mary Wilson was hell bent on slamming Diane with her books she could have chosen to tell how Berry Gordy got Diana Ross pregnant out of wedlock and Ross going on to marry another man knowing it was not his kid. Mary knew about it, but she sure did not write about it. When she was asked on television interviews, she refused to discuss it. Now give Mary some credit!
I've never understood that criticism of Mary. Ross even said it in 2000 interview with B Walters. Such bs. Mary most certainly did talk about it in her next book when she picked up the story in 1970 which is where it should have been chronologically. The loan came a number if years later..with interst!!lol