as far as the UK is concerned, the Jean Supremes had just as many real hits as the Ross Supremes;
how do ya like them apples?
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as far as the UK is concerned, the Jean Supremes had just as many real hits as the Ross Supremes;
how do ya like them apples?
Everyone knows that the Four Tops ruled England- infact thier greatest Hits album was the longest number one records for years- I believe it was number one for 20 weeks.
I actually meant that it was their EP that spent 22 weeks at number 1- one week short of the all time record. Their greatest hit album had the distinction of replacing Sgt. Pepper as the number one album in England. No surprise since everyone from the Beatles on down were big time fans.
I left school at 16 in England in July '63 so my record buying days spanned the early [[best) Motown years. In and around where I grew up there were few soul fans on the ground. The Mersey sound dominated the charts and the country's consciousness, the vast majority of people had no idea of the great music coming out of the U S. For me, 1965 was the best music year with a continuous stream of classics. In the U K at one point in '65 there was no U S record in the Top 10 and few in the Top 40, and to answer an earlier point, no there were not 42 records better than 'My Girl', people were not given the chance to listen to it.
It was like a time of being in a wilderness of mediocrity when listening to the radio, to hear the best stuff the pirate stations were the only place, they obtained new U S records to play a week or two after U S release, it could be up to 2 months before a record was released over here.
A fascinating thread, the '60's were a very frustrating time for being a Motown/soul fan in the U K. Airplay and acceptance were minimal
alcestermotown
Sounds like you're just about 3 years older than me....
Yes, the pirate stations were a good place to hear what was coming out of the US...but don't forget Ready Steady Go! and other TV programmes [[seem to remember one called Five o'clock Club...? with Muriel Young? Was that the correct title?) who featured visiting US acts.
I got a lot of info about what was happening on the US charts just by reading them in the music papers....who ran regular articles on Tamla-Motown artists. many who were just names on a roster. Think Record Mirror was particularly good with UK and US top 50's, and 'bubbling under' discs, which invariably included some Motown ones. Penny Valentine in the Disc [[& Music Echo) would rave about UK Motown releases.
There was a late Sunday afternoon programme on BBC radio for a while [[DJ was Chris Denning?) which featured recent releases from US, and Pat Campbell's programme later in one weekday evening on Radio Luxembourg was good at playing the current US hits.
The music papers would usually print what was being released in UK in any given week, and so I'd listen out for the ones that had caught my imagination by reading about them in advance. For instance, the minute I saw the US chart and read' Heat Wave- Martha & The Vandellas', I thought what a fabulous and glamorous name and title...and it went from there.....
Half the fun and joy of the Motown releases in the UK for me was in the anticipation.....and they rarely disappointed...
Many of the Motown UK releases that entered the charts would have been even bigger if the acts had been able to come over as they peaked, and promote them on a couple of shows, including Top Of The Pops.
The Supremes 'You Can't Hurry Love' whistled up the charts, but I don't think the ladies visited to promote it. It still got to number 3 [[?), but very likely could have been another number 1 for them. Of course, the US market was much bigger, so they had to address that, and I expect that acts like The Supremes were pre-booked to appear elsewhere, anyway.
Ooooooppppppppps........
We need to except "Grapevine" and also, Gladys Knight from my comment.
Marvin's Grapevine, while good, I can definitely do without any more of. I like the first 5 seconds and I also like the first "ooh" in Baby Love. Beyond that, I've had enough of them.
Excellent post wgb, metaphorically, it seems we walked the same streets. Yes, Ready Steady Go did help, and the Record Mirror was the best of the music papers by a long way.
The best on pirate radio was the Jake Spector Show, I think a tape flown over from the States and there was a soul show 8 till 9 on a Monday night on the Dutch pirate station, Radio Veronica. It was a must to listen to these.
Also, your point about Heat Wave were my feelings too. Good God Y'All, nearly 50 years ago.
alcestermotown
Thank you and yes, it hits further home to remember that Martha is 70 next Monday....
Bump for Strange.
I would be suspect of those 60's sales figures as I read from many sources back in the day & I use to get Record Mirror and a HUGE seller in the UK would sell 250,000 in the 60's & would be awarded a Silver Disc.
I'm about now Florence, sorry been chopping wood as it's turned wintry. Thanks for posting the list but didn't you say elsewhere it was an OCC claim when saying Stoned Love was 330k, and broadcast on Radio 2 or something? Or did I get it wrong?
Big difference between an official list and what someone else has worked out, no matter how much of the details do originate from the Official Chart Company that went into making the list.
As it stands I'll not say too much as it is obvious everyone is happy enough it seems to simply accept s stuff and don't seem inclined to get too heavily involved with it in a meaningful way. But suffice to say motony has just raised the most cogent point so far about the validity of the numbers.
The Four Tops Hits spent 22 weeks on top of the EP charts, but was bettered by The Shadows To The Fore [[28 weeks) and The Beach Boys Hits [[32 weeks). I think it worth pointing out that sales figures for the 1960s through to 1973 are going to be a bit suspect and are more based on what record companies said they were rather than proper audited figures - the BPI [[British Phonographic Industry) did not start issuing its own 'official' silver, gold and platinum discs, with Gary Glitter's Hello Hello I'm Back Again the first such award. Prior to this, Record & Disc magazine instituted their own award in 1959, based on claimed sales of 250,000 units - Russ Conway's Side Saddle was the first, followed a week later by Buddy Holly's It Doesn't Matter Anymore. Whilst I don't doubt the integrity of the record companies at the time, it is known that several of the awards were considered questionable, shall we say, by later chart analyists. The Motown discs given these awards were The Supremes Baby Love, The Four Tops Reach Out I'll Be There, Marvin Gaye I Heard It Through The Grapevine and Stevie Wonder Yester-Me Yester-You Yesterday. Motown's first 'official' silver disc went to Diana & Marvin's You Are Everything. The first gold disc was for the Commodores Three Times A Lady and Stevie Wonder's I Just Called To Say I Love You picked up the first platinum award.
A sale of 250k in the UK in the 1960s was not a particularly huge figure - many records sold between this and the next level of certification 1m - gold.
Artists such as Elvis Presley, Cliff Richard and The Beatles regularly sold 500k for their single releases.
As opposed to the US where albums were the huge sellers the UK has always been a singles orientated market. It's only really from the 80s where big numbers of albums began to post huge sales.
This IS an offical list as compiled by the Official Charts Company in the UK in terms of position.
The sales figures have been added in but as I have said in the first post you are able to get accurate figureswithin a certian rangefor UK sales and at some points in the list hard figures were known
I love these lists; but as to their authenticity or accuracy, I'm uncertain; there may be some basis for them but I don't believe anyone can say they are completely accurate.
And the RIAA lists are definitely no more accurate in terms of real sales; what they are is an RIAA list, nothing more. And they don't mean those records or CDs sold those amounts.
I wonder if Berry Gordy, Smokey Robinson, or Diana Ross accurately know what their records sold. I wonder if the later still deep inside thinks she got scammed here and there.
I think most of the artists were glad to be a part of Motown and I think Motown treated them better than most of the artists before them on other labels. I don't believe most of the artists knew they were paying for taxi fares, studio time, recording costs, Billboard ads, postage, long distance calls and the like. And I believe a lot of them wished they'd saved a lot more money.
But I also believe most of them are still glad to be singing today like Dennis Edwards in Hong Kong, like Diana Ross singing at a wedding or like Mary Wilson singing in Britain with Bill Wyman ~ and whether the money is huge or small, whether the crowds are huge or small, they still love it and don't want to let it go.
I'm sure Berry knew what was selling since he would have seen the pressing figures and the sales figures. Not that this is a story I heard related to Motown, but labels like Roulette, run by Morris Levy, would hand over the keys to a brand new Cadillac to artists whose records were selling - they could see them appear on the charts, even if they didn't know the quantities that were being shifted. Later, it turns out the Cadillac was only leased and Levy would stop paying the monthly premium, so the car would go back. He also once infamously said 'If you want to see royalties, go to Buckingham Palace.'
I think the RIAA figures are accurate up the point of copies selling out of the record company; whether they then took account of returns I'm not so sure! But let's face it, record companies loved the opportunity to show how successful they were by presenting an award or two to their artists and then getting the pictures in the trade publications. I know, I organised one for Edwin Starr [[and our sales figures were accurate!).
I always wondered why Britain was swamped with U.S. cut-outs albums in the late 70s. It was great for me to get a lot of stuff never released in the UK. But was this an attempt by Motown to state bigger sales?..Paulo xxx
Florence, the 45 was KING in the USA in the 60's.The LPs didn't come close to 45 sales until the mid 70's.
I think the UK often has better taste in music than us yanks-eg Do You Know bores me to death and Chain Reaction is a great record but Work That Body-yuk! Any thoughts on why the Tempts records not so popular? Did Brenda make the UK charts?
You've got to love the Roulette story: "if you wanna see royalties, go to Buckingham Palace", LOL!
The Morris Levy story is true, and sadly only part of his tentacle like hold on the music industry of the time. Take for instance his appearance as one of the composers of Why Do Fools Fall In Love. According to Jimmy Merchant and Herman Santiago, two of The Teenagers, they had come up with the idea for a song based on a poem called Why Do Birds Sing So Gay and had worked it into Why Do Fools Fall In Love with group leader Frankie Lymon. When they took the song to record producer George Goldner for release on his Gee Records label, he told them there wasn’t room on the disc for three credits, so the song was issued with the writing credit Lymon/Goldner! The single became a worldwide smash, topping the charts in the UK and was a Top Ten US hit, selling over two million copies in the process. It was a Top Ten hit for Diana Ross in 1981 and the original version had also featured on numerous rock and pop compilations over the years, making it one of the most popular pop songs of all time. Goldner, however, was another of the notorious record company executives operating in the 1950s; according to legend he lost the rights to his various record labels and copyrights gambling with Morris Levy. By the late 1950s, the writing credit on the song had been amended to read Lymon/Levy, and all attempts by Merchant and Santiago to obtain royalties had been rebuked. They were not the only ones, for Lymon’s widow Emira Eagle took Levy to court in 1984 claiming unpaid royalties. Under oath Levy was asked how he had contributed to the record. ‘You get together, you get a beat going and you put the music and words together. I think I would be misleading you if I said I wrote songs, per se, like Chopin.’
Really hard to understand the big difference in taste between the two countries with regard to Supremes/Diana singles.
Someday and Love Child purportedly the two biggest group singles did chart in the UK but only in the teens - there were many bigger hits.
Diana's solo singles were even more diverse. I'm Still Waiting was a #1 samash in the UK and really struggled Stateside - of course it wasn't released until a year after the Surrender album which may have had some effect.
We had Doodedoodn'doobe and All Of My Life lifted off albums and became big hits.
Do You Know Where You're Going To amazingly stiffef in the UK when first released and then wehen Diana came on tour six months later took off and made the top 5.
Mirror Mirror was a very minor hit while Work That Boby went top 10 - opposite in the US.
Then we had Diana's biggest hit ever in the UK Chain Reaction which did little in the US while Missing You flopped in the UK.
In the 90s Diana was more or less passe in the US while in the UK while Thr Force Behind The Power was close to double platinum in the UK and there were five hit singles from it including When You Tell Me That You Love Me which just missed #1 due to the sales boom for Queen after the death of Freddy Mercury.
Odd!
Surprises me that R.Dean Taylor "Ghost in My House" is not in the list? it was originally released in 1967 and never took off, I was still at school then and do not remember it, but in 1973 it was added to a Music for Pleasure LP which were very cheap in the UK and when I started to play it in clubs the floor filled up! I was on the Motown DJ list and kept pleading for it to be released and they laughed at first, Then 1974 it was released as a single and went to Number 2 in the UK Charts [[I remember a few years back some references put it at 3??) a big success for a Motown release! I was promised a disc for being persistent but never got it!! Perhaps the release was at a time of the year when UK sales did not need to be high?
I take it you are talking about Soul/R&B LPs and singles here Florence .. I used to avidly read Record Mirror from 1969 into the early '70s and in 1969 they were reporting that the British record companies were concerned about the "imminent demise of the seven inch single" as sales had collapsed from around 80 million per year at the height of "Beatlemania" [[1963/4?) to under 40 million.
In contrast sales of LPs in Britain had gone in the opposite direction, with the increase in sales powered mainly by "Progressive Rock" acts such as CREAM/LED ZEPPELIN/TYRANNASAURUS REX and "concept albums" by established Rock/Pop acts such as THE BEATLES/ROLLING STONES/WHO/MOODY BLUES etc.
Apart from "Greatest Hits" packages and compilations such as the "Motown Chartbusters" LPs the British LP charts contained very few "Soul" LPs in that period. In contrast the UK Top selling singles charts always had a large number of "Soul" releases in them.
Check these UK singles charts from May and June 1969, during the height of the "Soul Reissue" fever and about a quarter of the chart entries are "Soul/R&B" .. and the proportion of "Black" music increases to close to a third if the "Reggae/Rocksteady" entries are included.
May 3rd 1969 ..
http://www.chartstats.com/chart.php?week=19690503
June 14th 1969 ..
http://www.chartstats.com/chart.php?week=19690614
In contrast here are the UK LP listings for the same weeks .. with the only "Soul" entry being the DIANA ROSS & THE SUPREMES JOIN THE TEMPTATIONS set.
May 3rd 1969 ..
http://www.chartstats.com/album_char...03%2F05%2F1969
June 14th 1969 ..
http://www.chartstats.com/album_chart.php?week=19690607
That all fits with my memories of that period as the "Rock" fans I knew tended to buy LPs whereas the "Pop" and "Soul" fans tended to buy singles.
The concerns of the UK record companies lead them to start issuing the dreaded maxi-singles [[one track on the "A" side and two tracks on the "B" side) in an attempt to revive sales in 1970/71, sales of UK singles did revive and by the end of the 1970s were higher than ever but I would put the revival down to the popularity of singles orientated genres such as "Glitter Rock" in 1972/3/4 and "Disco" from 1974 onwards.
Roger
I think it ebbed and flowed, Roger.
In the 60s obviously the Beatles shifted albums and The Sound Of Music was a big seller but even artists like Cliff Roichard didn't really sell big numbers in albums.
Towards the end of the 70s albums really began to take off with Abba leading the way and Greatest Hits Collections elling by the bucketload. Then singles exploded again in the late 70s and went through periods of surges and declines.
But the top 40 was always interwoven int=o the fabric of British life and was always newsworthy.
Great story about Morris Levy Hotspurman, and that is the point really about the RIAA too. They set up a system whereby gold awards could be verified and authenticated officially by independent auditors who had to be shown the paperwork. Unless we are totally cynical we have to accept that it could be trusted and the information was credible. Beforehand the labels did as they pleased, and even afterwards as you've indicated there were plenty of what are termed 'in-house' awards that have simply a marketing and promotion purpose and may or may not be genuine.
You are correct in that what we have are shipments though, and they are problematic in other ways concerning returns and freebies. It is possible to judge the hits that didn't really deserve their RIAA award if one gets to see those pressing and sales figures, just as you rightly say Berry Gordy must have done. He knew the rules and conditions of the awards and simply decided they would not benefit Motown or support his publicity claims. You don't go looking for trouble!
Well motony that is far from true I'm afraid this time! The final quarter of 1967 saw US album and tape [[still pretty negligible though mind at this time) record sales exceed those for singles for the first time. It had been close for the preceeding three years too since the arrival of the Beatles.
The sales of singles were not as stupendous as we have been led to believe Stateside, they were far stronger in the mid-fifties and mid-late seventies than they ever were in the mid-sixties.
Well that's because I only rely on the best of sources Florence, like the RIAA's own 'Manufacturer's Dollar & Unit Shipments of Phonograph Records and Pre-Recorded Tapes' statistics. Once more it boils down to digging a little and then deciding whether you trust the industry watchdog or not. Of course they didn't have complete membership and reporting from every record company/label but it isn't too difficult to make the adjustments. After all, when dealing in tens and hundreds of millions the odd absence of the small outfits can easily be accounted for.
As with any statistical study one must use the correct data and trust the methodology and findings in place at the time as being the best and most fit for purpose. There is nothing else for it. The alternative is to invent stuff to suit our own preferences and that's of no interest to me. The facts [[as gathered and collated at the time or adjusted/improved upon subsequently) are all that count.
So it didn't do so well in the other 48 then Marv?! The RIAA auditors were given the chance to look at the sales paperwork for 'I Want You Back' and it got a platinum, but not double platinum. Anyway, the UK total estimate here in strict physical format original release 45-rpm sales terms is probably almost double what it actually shifted.
If Florence can say it includes downloads or not then maybe things are different as I would then agree none of us can follow or guestimate with any degree of accuracy as we just don't have the data like the official companies like i-tunes do.
I hadn't given it much thought as I could see at first glance [[as I said above near the top of the page when motony mentioned the obvious about UK silver discs) that the list was full of errors, but yes 'Ghost In My House' should be there. At least it would be if the usual elevation of everyone's totals hadn't occurred - at least if anyone has been following or remotely accepts what I've said about sales of 'Stoned Love'.
It didn't get a silver disc for starters. Like I keep saying to everyone, we have to accept some of the original official facts if we are to make any sense of this nonsense at all.
Thanks Roger, nothing like the actual stats to underline the realities! In the late sixties and on into 1972 – with the usual exception to prove the rule – single sales were indeed very flat compared with 63/4. But then again, most comparisons with the Beatles/Merseybeat explosion would look poor!
The actual 45-rpm record production figures for 1964 were 72,841,000 against 46,618,000 in 1969. But as always, an understanding of what the numbers mean and refer to is equally as important in all of this [[a bit like the Republicans or Democrats explaining the same sets of figures differently and the non-partisan commentators actually interpreting them for what they are!).
Each record manufacturer in the UK had to report their production figures monthly to the Board of Trade, who then collated the numbers and published them. To the BoT it was a simple exercise in collating and recording another set of figures as much as tonnes of steel output or gallons of milk produced by British cows…it was all to work out much more macro things like GDP etc. They paid little attention to the details that the record industry itself would drill-down into and report later under the auspices of the trade association the BPI. There is much more to it, but basically the numbers you almost correctly recalled from Record Mirror were what we today consider as shipments, but moreover they would also include exports! To be sure that wasn’t massive in singles terms, but it is one misleading indicator not described in the bald data.
Another is of course [[as discussed on another Motown forum thread), that shipments – which are virtually what production should be taken to mean here – are very far from sales to the consumer. Once more there are ways to arrive at an overall view given the right background documentation and it isn’t for here, but suffice to say it wasn’t what the BoT was after but for our little game of working out what was selling what it is necessary to know. Finally, for the 45-rpm category, we have distortion [[that again didn’t concern the BoT) because of EPs. In 63/4 these were huge, but in 1969 they were almost extinct to all intents and purposes statistically. Once again I won’t expand further as this isn’t the place.
The LPs had indeed gone in exactly the opposite direction as you say, but the ‘tale of the tape’ is even more confusing and far from straightforward! Lies, damn lies and statistics, eh?! And your chart examples showing the preferences of differing groups of consumers for singles/albums, and who was buying which principally, is apt too I would say.
The BPI which is responsible for certifications in the UK only took this over in 1973.
Before this the award was presented by Disc [[a weekly music magazine) - NOT Record Mirror and it was on the word of a senior executive of the record company concerned and there was NO independent audit! Some companies wouldn't even bother to request one.
There is no particular reason why There's A Ghost In My House should be on the list. All reaching #3 [[the official peak) tells you that in that week the record was the third best selling single in the UK. Total sales will depend the size of the market at the time and also the time of the year etc. It was after the BPI was doing the certifications and didn't get a Silver Disc. I don't see any reason why Motown wouldn't claim this if the record reached the 250,000 figure as EMI [[the parent company) did for other records on the label.
The OCC is the official chart company in the UK and is operated jointly by the BPI and Entertainment Reatilers Ascociation and has access to all sales figures. Before a certain date these will be the company's own figures [[shipments less returns).
The Motown best-selling list is compiled by them and unless anyone has proof to the contrary is correct. There will always be conspiracy thories but there is no reason why this list should be wrong.
I don't see that you have any basis for saying "the list is full of errors", Strange.
Does anyone know precisely how reissues are treated in this list ..
Virtually all of the "Classic Motown" hits were reissued [[with a new catalogue number and often a different "B" side) on 45 at least once in the UK in the 70's and '80 and with the following four the reissue sold enough to make the UK charts ..
7. I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye [[1969) 500,000+ *
8. Baby Love - The Supremes [[1964) 500,000
14. The Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson and the Miracles [[1970) 460,000
16. What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted - Jimmy Ruffin [[1966) 440,000
Looking at my Guinness book of British Hit Singles they had the following chart runs ..
MARVIN GAYE .. "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" ..
Original issue in 1969 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 686 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 3 weeks.
Reissue in 1986, prompted by the use of the tune in a Levi's ad-campaign .. Tamla-Motown ZB 40701 .. 8 weeks on the chart peaking at #8.
SUPREMES - "Baby Love"
Original issue in 1964 .. Stateside SS 350 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 2 weeks.
Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 915 .. 12 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.
SMOKEY ROBINSON & THE MIRACLES - "Tears Of a Clown"
Original issue in 1970 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 745 .. 14 weeks on the chart peaking at #1 for 1 week.
Reissue in 1976, as part of a number of "back-to-back hits" reissues .. Tamla Motown TMG 1046 .. 6 weeks on the chart peaking at #34.
JIMMY RUFFIN - "What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted"
Original issue in 1966 .. Tamla-Motown TMG 577 .. 15 weeks on the chart peaking at #10.
Reissue in 1974, prompted by pent-up demand .. Tamla Motown TMG 911 .. 13 weeks on the chart peaking at #4.
The only one of the reissues that had the same "B" side as the original was "Baby Love"/"Ask Any Girl" so I can't see how the list can legitimately combine sales of all issues ..
The most interesting of these 4 I find to be the JIMMY RUFFIN song, which was actually a bigger UK chart hit when reissued in 1974 than it had been back in 1966 .. and yet the list implies that the sales figure of 440,000 is for the TMG 577 1966 release. Does anyone know if the figure actually includes the 1974 reissue?
Assuming that the figure of 440,000 is just for TMG 577 it makes me wonder what the figure would be if TMG 911 were included. Alternatively if the figure is for both releases what would the split be .. 250,000 for TMG 577 and 190,000 for TMG 911?
Roger
It's also worth pointing out that the Official Chart Company didn't come into being until the late 1980s, so I would say that any sales figures prior to then are mainly based on record company claims. The charts that were compiled up to then were based on a sample of stores, not every outlet, and those of you who were buying records throughout the 1970s and early 80s will recall that the sample stores very rarely took account of regional hits, with several Northern Soul releases doing fantastically well in the north and not making the chart because none of the southern stores reported any sales. I worked at Pye for most of this period, and we spent weeks trying to break Kelly Marie's Feels Like I'm In Love - it was a massive seller in Scotland long before it finally made the chart.