Was Force Behind the Power really a "lost" hit album for Diana in the states?

Diana's return to motown seems to be a mix of creative achievement and sales disappointments, to paraphrase Randy. most fans find WO to be a big miss but the other albums were much better and more in line with a "Diana Ross sound."

but given FBTP's release in 1991, do you really think it would have been a major US hit for her? There's a lot to discuss in why the record might have stalled - she did heavy promotional work on tv and her tour but the album wasn't even on store shelves for several months, motown would release 1 single and then a week or two later change their minds and promote another song.

i'm not so sure though that the material would have delivered a US pop hit for her.

When You Tell Me - this is a pretty song but even i remember thinking it wasn't anything special. and my friends that heard it were even less impressed. it just wasn't new or different or exciting

Force - the beat is a little better but the positive, feel-good lyric just makes it too cheesy for me

Change of heart - it's ok. sounds contemporary without the cheesy lyrics. but i don't know that it was special or really different

Waiting in the wings and You're Gonna Love It - these are probably the two strongest songs on the album. they sound contemporary and exciting. i think they should have used one of these, maybe YGLI, as the lead single

One Shining Moment - this is the album's "oprah" song. something for Diana to sing while making her obligatory appearance on the show meanwhile Oprah stands in the audience crying and waving her arms back and forth.

Battlefield - i like this song a lot. frankly i think it's a better modern take on "the motown song" like Chained Reaction was. it's a great tune and adds life to the album. but i think releasing it as a single would be very risky. diana needed to be seen as contemporary and this is a throwback song

Blame it one the sun - beautiful album track but that's all

Heavy weather - a very solid album cut but again that's all

For whatever reason, the album was ignored.
Great album.great tour
But again.just like Surrender, Baby It's Me, The Force ,Take Me Higher, Motown dropped the ball on all of these.
Diana seems to always do same shows,Oprah,today ,GMA but fails to do shows like Rosie and Ellen which we're a younger ,cd buying audience.
She needed to reach a wider audience.
This album should have been promoted as a more AC album. Think Motown missed the right audience.
Love ,waiting in the wings,heart don't change my mind,blame it on the sun

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Originally Posted by daviddh

For whatever reason, the album was ignored.
Great album.great tour
But again.just like Surrender, Baby It's Me, The Force ,Take Me Higher, Motown dropped the ball on all of these.
Diana seems to always do same shows,Oprah,today ,GMA but fails to do shows like Rosie and Ellen which we're a younger ,cd buying audience.
She needed to reach a wider audience.
This album should have been promoted as a more AC album. Think Motown missed the right audience.
Love ,waiting in the wings,heart don't change my mind,blame it on the sun

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David, I agree. All of her appearances are usually "safe"; the usual. You know Oprah isn't going to ask her anything too revealing. Let's just slap an interview together where she can talk about her kids for the 10,000th time.

I thought her best interview, ever, was BEHIND THE ACTOR'S STUDIO. James Lipton got her to talk about things that she never touches on.

I never bought the album. I really didn't need to.

In Australia [[and presumably the UK) a CD single was released which contained 'When You Tell Me'. 'One Shining Moment', 'Force' and 'If We Hold On Together' so that pretty much covered it for me.

But yes - a shame that these songs which were just about all top ten songs [[plus the album which reaced #11) in the UK did nothing in the US.

I always hesitate to blame the record company; they had little to do with the downfall of the Supremes. The Supremes caused their own downfall and in addition, they just became old and passé and had no ability to reinvent themselves.

For Diana, she took 4 years off to get married and have kids - and she was 4 years from 50. A resale was going to be hard.

Not every album is a hit no matter who you are.

I think Diana would have needed to be out there much more for a longer period of time; if she could have shown Motown that she had legs with this release, they would have stepped it up.

It was an excellent album, much in the vein of TMITM. I would never have released Force as the first single even if the pope had collaborated with Stevie; other than Heavy Weather, it was the weakest cut on the album.

Force Behind the Power is one my top five Ross solo albums. But at time of release it was very AC and power singers who like to show off the octave range, like Whitney and Mariah and on the male side, Michael Bolton [[ugh), were dominating the charts. The album was too AC for the youth market, and Diana's vocals were not in fashion at the time. Even the dance song, You're Gonna Love It, was not going to compete with Madonna or Janet Jackson and other dance acts of the time.

n the UK the album certified platinum for sales exceeding 300,000 copies. Peaked at #11.

Singles were:

When You Tell Me That You Love Me #2
The Force Behind The Power #27
One Shining Moment #10
If We Hold On Together #11
Heart [[Don't Change My Mind) #33

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Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21

Force Behind the Power is one my top five Ross solo albums. But at time of release it was very AC and power singers who like to show off the octave range, like Whitney and Mariah and on the male side, Michael Bolton [[ugh), were dominating the charts. The album was too AC for the youth market, and Diana's vocals were not in fashion at the time. Even the dance song, You're Gonna Love It, was not going to compete with Madonna or Janet Jackson and other dance acts of the time.

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I agree. Diana's commercial decline started with Eaten Alive and, unfortunately, hit rock bottom on her return to Motown with Workin' Overtime. Force Behind The Power gave me hope that she was back to form. I didn't think the album contained a major hit, though, for the reasons you stated so well.
I think she could still have shone on the AC charts. I like Change of Heart, Waiting in The Wings, One Shining Moment and You're Gonna Love It. Any of these could have been appreciable but not major hits on the AC and/or dance charts with proper promotion, support and timing.

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Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21

Force Behind the Power is one my top five Ross solo albums. But at time of release it was very AC and power singers who like to show off the octave range, like Whitney and Mariah and on the male side, Michael Bolton [[ugh), were dominating the charts. The album was too AC for the youth market, and Diana's vocals were not in fashion at the time. Even the dance song, You're Gonna Love It, was not going to compete with Madonna or Janet Jackson and other dance acts of the time.

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I completely agree. But it is not one of my top five. I was very disappointed when it came out because there were no hits on it. I liked when you tell me very much, but, I don’t like that fake instruments and weird chorus. this is an AC album, it was not promoted as one, and there’s no radio friendly track sign here. I think one shining moment, when you tell me, and perhaps, blame it on the sun could have received a decent number of adds if promoted correctly. The album I was waiting for, as it turns out, would be her next one. Definitely one of my top five.

She could have released the most commercial album ever to see the light of day and still the USA wouldn’t have bitten. It might have shifted a few more copies had the release date tied in with concert promotion, but i still don’t think it would have caused that much of a splash.
I didn’t like the album when first released thinking it way to vanilla, but have since come to appreciate it.
As far as European sales were concerned, it might have been wiser to stay in this pop orientated vein as opposed to shifting to a more r&b influenced sound.
I remember Blues & Soul magazine thought “Blame It On The Sun” the best song on the album which might well be true.
Personal Faves for me are the punchy Force Behind The Power” and the shimmering ballad with great lyrics You And I”.

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Originally Posted by lucky2012

I agree. Diana's commercial decline started with Eaten Alive and, unfortunately, hit rock bottom on her return to Motown with Workin' Overtime. Force Behind The Power gave me hope that she was back to form. I didn't think the album contained a major hit, though, for the reasons you stated so well.
I think she could still have shone on the AC charts. I like Change of Heart, Waiting in The Wings, One Shining Moment and You're Gonna Love It. Any of these could have been appreciable but not major hits on the AC and/or dance charts with proper promotion, support and timing.

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yeah i agree. this album is AC not pop or Top 40.

plus i think her image was stale too. she was still wearing the mane of hair she first donned in 1979. her glamorous look was also pretty much one-note too. I do like the images of her with the straightened hair and in the gold lame gown. but i think that's just a variation of "the tried and true Diana look"

maybe had she and motown just focused on AC this would have charted better. I agree that at this time in 1991, NO ONE was interested in oldies or disco or throwback. she might have had more chart success with biding her time. do this AC album in 91 and then in 93 or 94 instead of the Extended album and remixes, do something to tap into the disco resurgence.

This tour was the first time I saw Diana in concert, at the Orpheum in Minneapolis, August 12, 1991.

Her set list was:

Chain Reaction

Medley: Where Did Our Love Go / Baby Love / Stop!/ You Can't Hurry Love / You Keep Me Hangin' On

Dirty Looks

Paradise

Blame It on the Sun

Mirror, Mirror

The Man I Love

Good Morning Heartache

I Cried for You

Waiting in the Wings

Change of Heart

When You Tell Me That You Love Me

You're Gonna Love It

Why Do Fools Fall in Love

Missing You

Love Hangover

Mahogany/ Ain't No Mountain

Encore:

Endless Love

Reach Out and Touch

Billboard
12-21- 1991


UK SINGLES

1] DON'T LET THE SUN GO DOWN ON ME - GEORGE MICHAEL/ELTON JOHN EPIC
2] WHEN YOU TELL ME THAT... - DIANA ROSS EMI
3] JUSTIFIED AND ANCIENT - THE KLF/TAMMY WYNETTE - KLF COMMUNICATIONS
4] BLACK OR WHITE - MICHAEL JACKSON EPIC
5] RIDE LIKE THE WIND - EAST SIDE BEAT a«
6] DRIVEN BY YOU - BRIAN MAY PARLOPHONE
7] TOO BLIND TO SEE IT - KYM SIMS ATOO
8] STARS - SIMPLY RED EASTWEST
9] IF YOU GO AWAY- NEW KIDS ON THE BLOCK
COLUMBIA
10] SMELLS LIKE TEEN SPIRIT - NIRVANA D

I wonder if they were buying it for the retro b side

• UK 7-inch and cassette single [[EM 217; TCEM 217)^[13][14]

1. "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" [[LP version) – 4:10
2. "Chain Reaction" [[single version) – 3:47

• UK 12-inch single [[12EM 217)^[15]

A1. "When You Tell Me That You Love Me" [[LP version)
B1. "Chain Reaction" [[12-inch version)
B2. "You and I"

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Originally Posted by Boogiedown

Billboard
12-21- 1991


UK SINGLES

1] DON'T LET THE SUN GO DOWN ON ME - GEORGE MICHAEL/ELTON JOHN EPIC
2] WHEN YOU TELL ME THAT... - DIANA ROSS EMI
3] JUSTIFIED AND ANCIENT - THE KLF/TAMMY WYNETTE - KLF COMMUNICATIONS
4] BLACK OR WHITE - MICHAEL JACKSON EPIC
5] RIDE LIKE THE WIND - EAST SIDE BEAT a«
6] DRIVEN BY YOU - BRIAN MAY PARLOPHONE
7] TOO BLIND TO SEE IT - KYM SIMS ATOO
8] STARS - SIMPLY RED EASTWEST
9] IF YOU GO AWAY- NEW KIDS ON THE BLOCK
COLUMBIA
10] SMELLS LIKE TEEN SPIRIT - NIRVANA D

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Great chart list, with two legacy acts in the Top 5!

It must have been a slow rise to the top; WYTMTYLM was released on August 20, 1991. In comparison, New Kids at #9 released IYGA on December 2, 1991 and hit the Top 10 just a few weeks later.

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Originally Posted by marybrewster

Great chart list, with two legacy acts in the Top 5!

It must have been a slow rise to the top; WYTMTYLM was released on August 20, 1991. In comparison, New Kids at #9 released IYGA on December 2, 1991 and hit the Top 10 just a few weeks later.

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Must have made for a very nice Christmas. I'd like to imagine Michael and Diana trading holiday wishes over the phone and both getting the giggles out of their both being in the UK Top 5 .

a few years ago i dug around through my collection and then also the various books and charts and wikipedia to track down all of her singles releases from FBTP, Extended, Forever, THM and Everyday. it was pretty common to include a single edit of a song but then maybe a few different remixes. or they added a song that was released internationally.

there are quite a few mixes of Waiting in the Wings and You're Gonna Love It. we'd mentioned that the album sounded too AC but the remixes do help a little to give her a more current sound

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

a few years ago i dug around through my collection and then also the various books and charts and wikipedia to track down all of her singles releases from FBTP, Extended, Forever, THM and Everyday. it was pretty common to include a single edit of a song but then maybe a few different remixes. or they added a song that was released internationally.

there are quite a few mixes of Waiting in the Wings and You're Gonna Love It. we'd mentioned that the album sounded too AC but the remixes do help a little to give her a more current sound

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During the early 90s, it was great to see the various releases on Diana in foreign markets. Every time I bought GOLDMINE, I used to look for the ads to see what new release might be available.

In the US, Motown did release a more R&B influenced version of WAITING IN THE WINGS as a single, complete with a sax solo by Gerald Albright.

I often wonder if this had been her first release back at Motown rather than Working Overtime, if it would have been better received. I know at least one person who was annoyed that If We Hold On Together was not on Working Overtime, and he was not happy with the tracks on WO. As released, Force Behind The Power was a definite AC recording. The only song that really hit me was Battlefield.

i had forgotten Diana took off several years to get married and have 2 more babies
in top 40, thats a lifetime and usually ,they never come back as big, same as Celine Dion , she took off and never recovered.
i think the 2 that seem to make comebacks are Dolly and Cher.

As one can see from the UK singles chart, as well as the US singles chart, there's a pop culture game changer of a song there, Smells Like Teen Spirit by Nirvana, which brought on the dreary age of grunge dominating the music scene in the early 90s and sweeping out a lot of the late 80s/early 90s pop and rock acts.

I have to admit that I'm not as familiar with this album as most of the rest of you. I have it, but I don't play it much. I don't have the track list committed to memory, and I don't know the words to most of the songs. As much of a fan as I am of Diana, her discography upon her second stint with Motown is pretty much where I check out. Off the top of my head, I do like "Force", "Battlefield" and "When You Tell Me", the latter of which I think needed a complete reworking of the chorus to make the song like up to its potential.

That being said, everything about Diana's Motown 2 era was either all wrong or it was off. I really believe that returning to Motown, Diana should have cut an album that had an updated Motown Sound sound, which was popular during the mid to late 80s. A driving beat, tambourines and horns, etc. She was the Queen of Motown. How does she come back to the label without all the stops being pulled out? How does she come back without capitalizing off of her connection to one of the greatest sounds in music history? It didn't have to be hokey. It didn't have to be her trying to pretend she was 20 years old again. With some thought, her return to Motown could have been very successful.

Sup mentioned that nobody was into disco. Dance music was huge in the early 90s. FBTP was released in the midst of that. WO was too soon, and IMO, while I like the song, it never came across to me as a hard hitting dance track. But if Diana could have lucked up on some kind of gem, it could have been a game changer. To me, "Take Me Higher" sounded exactly like some of the best stuff that was jumping in that early 90s period. Had she cut that song then, I think she could have had a winner. As it was, "Take Me Higher" sounds like Diana was a couple years too late to the party and everyone else had gone home.

That being said, I have to give Diana some credit with FBTP, as I think she was really trying to make something happen and not half assing the concept. But when it didn't take off, I think she should have made the transition the way Natalie Cole did. Leave all that other stuff to the new crop of folks coming up. In a jazz/blues/songbook lane, Diana, like Natalie, was one of the ones who had the chops to show folks how it was done. Missed opportunity.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

I have to admit that I'm not as familiar with this album as most of the rest of you. I have it, but I don't play it much. I don't have the track list committed to memory, and I don't know the words to most of the songs. As much of a fan as I am of Diana, her discography upon her second stint with Motown is pretty much where I check out. Off the top of my head, I do like "Force", "Battlefield" and "When You Tell Me", the latter of which I think needed a complete reworking of the chorus to make the song like up to its potential.

That being said, everything about Diana's Motown 2 era was either all wrong or it was off. I really believe that returning to Motown, Diana should have cut an album that had an updated Motown Sound sound, which was popular during the mid to late 80s. A driving beat, tambourines and horns, etc. She was the Queen of Motown. How does she come back to the label without all the stops being pulled out? How does she come back without capitalizing off of her connection to one of the greatest sounds in music history? It didn't have to be hokey. It didn't have to be her trying to pretend she was 20 years old again. With some thought, her return to Motown could have been very successful.

Sup mentioned that nobody was into disco. Dance music was huge in the early 90s. FBTP was released in the midst of that. WO was too soon, and IMO, while I like the song, it never came across to me as a hard hitting dance track. But if Diana could have lucked up on some kind of gem, it could have been a game changer. To me, "Take Me Higher" sounded exactly like some of the best stuff that was jumping in that early 90s period. Had she cut that song then, I think she could have had a winner. As it was, "Take Me Higher" sounds like Diana was a couple years too late to the party and everyone else had gone home.

That being said, I have to give Diana some credit with FBTP, as I think she was really trying to make something happen and not half assing the concept. But when it didn't take off, I think she should have made the transition the way Natalie Cole did. Leave all that other stuff to the new crop of folks coming up. In a jazz/blues/songbook lane, Diana, like Natalie, was one of the ones who had the chops to show folks how it was done. Missed opportunity.

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I agree regarding “Take Me Higher” being too late to the party. Though a solid and uplifting shuffler, by 95 it sounded a little old hat around the edges. I think “Don’t Stop” [[complete with rap) should have kicked the album off.
For the most part she shied away from anything remotely motown sounding, with a tendency towards rock guitar. An Ashford And Simpson produced album would have seemed fitting in announcing the queens return to the label, not to mention the publicity and anticipation it would have generated.

i think too late to the party is a good line. and expand to too little, too late. none of the songs really sounded like what Janet or other contemporary artists were doing. If and Again were two MASSIVE hits for Miss Jackson and if you compare When You Tell Me or Force Behind the Power to those two hits, you see just how lightweight Diana's were.

you also had Whitney and Mariah at their peaks doing all of their vocal gymnastics. Madonna was releasing scandalous material with incredible beats.

also ironically you had a resurgence of the girl groups - En Vogue, SWV and others.

rewinding to 1989 and WO, it's sort of the opposite - Diana was being TOO aggressive lol. it's like she can't win. I think Diana should have done the material paula Abdul was doing with Straight Up, Cold Hearted, Rush Rush. Diana is a MUCH better vocalist than Paula. these tunes were very current but vocally, Diana could have delivered the goods here with a fresh sound that was current but not so over the top as WO.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think too late to the party is a good line. and expand to too little, too late. none of the songs really sounded like what Janet or other contemporary artists were doing. If and Again were two MASSIVE hits for Miss Jackson and if you compare When You Tell Me or Force Behind the Power to those two hits, you see just how lightweight Diana's were.

you also had Whitney and Mariah at their peaks doing all of their vocal gymnastics. Madonna was releasing scandalous material with incredible beats.

also ironically you had a resurgence of the girl groups - En Vogue, SWV and others.

rewinding to 1989 and WO, it's sort of the opposite - Diana was being TOO aggressive lol. it's like she can't win. I think Diana should have done the material paula Abdul was doing with Straight Up, Cold Hearted, Rush Rush. Diana is a MUCH better vocalist than Paula. these tunes were very current but vocally, Diana could have delivered the goods here with a fresh sound that was current but not so over the top as WO.

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Supposing Diana had recorded songs such as “Straight Up” etc, i very much doubt it would have made much difference. We must remember Paula is a lot younger then Diana, with the American market never known for it’s loyalty towards veteran artists where image is everything.
As Ran has sometimes mentioned, at that point in time a mixture of pop, jazz and standards similar to what Natalie Cole would be doing was the way to go.
Different in Europe of course where she was still scoring hits.

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Originally Posted by Ollie9

Supposing Diana had recorded songs such as “Straight Up” etc, i very much doubt it would have made much difference. We must remember Paula is a lot younger then Diana, with the American market never known for it’s loyalty towards veteran artists where image is everything.
As Ran has sometimes mentioned, at that point in time a mixture of pop, jazz and standards similar to what Natalie Cole would be doing was the way to go.
Different in Europe of course where she was still scoring hits.

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quite possible. you're right that americans are quick to discard older artists. and by the late 80s i think her public persona had taken some hard hits with Dreamgirl, CHMR, the Entertainment Tonight coverage of her ongoing feud with mary. it's quite possible that the youth market was just "done" with her

Paula's dancing and choreography in those videos also sold those songs from the Forever Your Girl album. If Diana had recorded those songs instead the videos would not have been as dynamic in terms of dance.

However it makes me wonder if Diana had recorded Opposites Attract with MC Skat Kat, would there have been tension between them in the studio that would have led to their parts being recorded separately?

I'm not sure how this works
I thought usually an artists works with a producer upon recording an album.
It seems to me ,at times, DR shows up and just records songs and puts together an album
Maybe she used to how HDH n Motown recorded her in the 60s.
But she didn't seem invested in her own music until it was to late.

Some solid choices, some not

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Originally Posted by daviddh

I'm not sure how this works
I thought usually an artists works with a producer upon recording an album.
It seems to me ,at times, DR shows up and just records songs and puts together an album
Maybe she used to how HDH n Motown recorded her in the 60s.
But she didn't seem invested in her own music until it was to late.

Some solid choices, some not

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i'm not totally familiar with everything either but my understanding is that in the 60s and 70s, a producer would begin building out the pieces for a song. The producers were assigned to different artists and typically multiple ones. coordinating with the writers [[of which they might be one), scheduling studio time with various musicians. they would have first worked with the Funk Bros and gotten the basics set and then layered in various other tracks - the horns on one day, lead vocal on another, then maybe the strings, the backing vocals another day, etc.

my belief is that this continued into the 70s although i think the volume of just random tracks decreased. in the 60s, the sups recorded a zillion tunes and each was pretty much a stand alone piece. they might be working with 1 producer but the songs weren't being approached as a concept, just 1 tune after another. sure there was probably a general sound the producer was focusing on at that point in time and so there was a degree of cohesivesness.

by the 80s, diana was the Executive Producer on her albums, meaning she was the one packaging it all up. she might opt to work with 1 producer like Gary Katz who comes to her with a broader project in mind. she also would have been receiving tons of random songs by various people. and some she moved forward with and some not. sometimes that person that submitted the song would also produce. other times not.

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Originally Posted by daviddh

I'm not sure how this works
I thought usually an artists works with a producer upon recording an album.
It seems to me ,at times, DR shows up and just records songs and puts together an album
Maybe she used to how HDH n Motown recorded her in the 60s.
But she didn't seem invested in her own music until it was to late.

Some solid choices, some not

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That was the way with Diana. Turn up, record whatever songs as speedily as possible then onto the rest of her day. It wasn’t until “FBTP” that she became more thoughtful with her music by which time the USA were through with her.

Diana, first and foremost, is a singer. Similar to a puzzle, many pieces make the final product. Diana was only ever a piece. When she went to RCA, everything fell apart because she tried to be the entire puzzle. She learned the hard way. She was never the entire puzzle.

She, unlike Streisand, didn’t have the intelligence, skills, nor ability to be the entire puzzle. Just look at the products she put out- subpar records and tv performances, a repetitive concert that had seen its sell-by date, and her dull book that contained no secrets despite its title.

And, she claims she has no regrets.

One of her best albums this was the real Diana Ross the one we looked forward to making new albums. It was freaking good.

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Originally Posted by Circa 1824

Diana, first and foremost, is a singer. Similar to a puzzle, many pieces make the final product. Diana was only ever a piece. When she went to RCA, everything fell apart because she tried to be the entire puzzle. She learned the hard way. She was never the entire puzzle.

She, unlike Streisand, didn’t have the intelligence, skills, nor ability to be the entire puzzle. Just look at the products she put out- subpar records and tv performances, a repetitive concert that had seen its sell-by date, and her dull book that contained no secrets despite its title.

And, she claims she has no regrets.

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A good analogy. She never quite understood what it was that made her famous in the first place.

You have to think about that time in the music industry. As mentioned, on one hand, you had the vocal powerhouses of Whitney, Mariah and Celine, the other hand you had more provocative performers such as Madonna and Janet. Then factor in Diana's age [[47), she was a married mother of two young boys, a teenage daughter and two young grown women. Her last hit was six years before then and even then she struggled to compete during the fast-moving '80s. She moved slower while everyone else - even her contemporaries like Cher and Tina Turner - moved faster.

Even if Motown gave her the best promotion in the world, I'm not sure the buying public of 1991 through 1992 would've bought this album besides her diehards.

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Originally Posted by midnightman

You have to think about that time in the music industry. As mentioned, on one hand, you had the vocal powerhouses of Whitney, Mariah and Celine, the other hand you had more provocative performers such as Madonna and Janet. Then factor in Diana's age [[47), she was a married mother of two young boys, a teenage daughter and two young grown women. Her last hit was six years before then and even then she struggled to compete during the fast-moving '80s. She moved slower while everyone else - even her contemporaries like Cher and Tina Turner - moved faster.

Even if Motown gave her the best promotion in the world, I'm not sure the buying public of 1991 through 1992 would've bought this album besides her diehards.

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Folks in the UK adored the album and subsequent singles, helped along by heavy tv promotion by Diana herself.