Best early track with Barbara

ok - figured it was time we get back to discussing the music again

And with the unfortunate passing of Barbara Martin, let's take some time to discuss the music while she was in the group. wouldn't it be AMAZING if motown dug up some super rare live tracks? but in the meantime, let's discuss!

So what was your fav track that Barbara was on?

Do you think there was a lost [[semi) hit from those days?

I actually sort of like Never Again. and Play a Sad Song is not too bad either

Wonder if Hey Baby might have fared a little better than Buttered Popcorn. At least the lyrics are a little more sensible

I would have said THOSE D.J. SHOWS as that is probably my favorite unreleased recording from Barbara's era. But I honestly don't hear her on it. So maybe AFTER ALL as it is the only track with each of the four taking a turn, or SAVE ME A STAR.

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Originally Posted by reese

I would have said THOSE D.J. SHOWS as that is probably my favorite unreleased recording from Barbara's era. But I honestly don't hear her on it. So maybe AFTER ALL as it is the only track with each of the four taking a turn, or SAVE ME A STAR.

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i agree that DJ sounds only like F and M in the backgrounds but it was recorded in Sept 61 so that should have included Barbara. Frankly i always found it hard to really hear here on Your Heart Belongs. but guess she is on it too

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i agree that DJ sounds only like F and M in the backgrounds but it was recorded in Sept 61 so that should have included Barbara. Frankly i always found it hard to really hear here on Your Heart Belongs. but guess she is on it too

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I figured there might be some sessions that she missed.

Needed a break for a minute. So sad to learn of Barbara's passing, especially after I erroneously shared information of her death last year or the year before. Was relieved to learn the info wasn't true, but now it is. She was the least famous Supreme, but in my book she was every bit as Supreme as any of the others, so as a fan, this really sucks. I pray peace and comfort for her family.

Since my introduction to the Supremes- aside from their biggest hits- was the Meet The Supremes album, which is the album that solidified my fandom of the group, the quartet years hold a special place in my heart. However, for a long time I've downplayed Barbara's contribution to the group, mostly because she doesn't come across as the vocalist her singing partners were. Flo, Diana and Mary were really good lead singers. Each girl had her lane, her strength, the type of song she excelled with. Their leads on the Meet album, and later vault releases from Barbara's tenure, prove that. Barbara has mostly been a voice in the background, and it stands out. The problem is that more than once [[the most famous example being "Who's Loving You") Barbara stands out because she's a bit on the flat side. Mary's recollection of Barbara's audition for the group includes that they could tell Barbara was not the best singer. To me that says it all. Barbara secured her spot because she could do just enough to get by vocally but also had a great attitude and personality, which obviously the young girls thought was important even then. [[Showing that the Supremes were always thinking on a level above most of their counterparts.) When Barbara's only known lead on "After All" finally surfaced...yeah it was clear: Barbara wasn't the singer her group mates were. And so while I've never disrespected Barbara's place in the Supremes, I have often thought her contribution minimal at best.

Over the last year or so I think my position has changed some. With Barbara's voice in the harmony, the group doesn't sound as polished as they eventually would become. There's a street vibe to their sound. It's sort of what I get from the Marvelettes, a group I more or less consider to be full of Barbaras. I think the quartet Supremes with Barbara had a sound girls would have found easy to sing along to. It was a sound that was ripe for stuff like "Because I Love Him" or "The Boy That Got Away". I think Barbara is a big part of the charm of those songs. Would she have fit in when the girls started doing more mature stuff like "Breath Taking Guy" or the C&W stuff or the standards? Not at all. I personally don't believe the Supremes would have become THE SUPREMES with Barbara in the group, I don't care who was singing lead.

Bottom line for me: I think she was an important part of the early years, but Barbara dropping out of the act was one of the key factors of their progression to a better group.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

So what was your fav track that Barbara was on?

Do you think there was a lost [[semi) hit from those days?

I actually sort of like Never Again. and Play a Sad Song is not too bad either

Wonder if Hey Baby might have fared a little better than Buttered Popcorn. At least the lyrics are a little more sensible

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I doubt I have a favorite that is above any of the ones I love during the Barbara period, but among my favs where Barbara can be heard is "Because I Love Him", "Never Again", "The Boy That Got Away", "Buttered Popcorn".

I do believe "Buttered Popcorn" would've been a hit with more of a push from Motown. It was right in line with the silly songs of the period, had a great track, and Flo kicks butt with it. I know the song got good airplay in Detroit, Chicago and Philadelphia. That tells me that had Motown really gotten on it, the song may have picked up in other places. I also seem to recall reading that there was an early decision to push the single as a double sided hit, which was dumb. There was no way "Who's Loving You" was better than "Buttered Popcorn", or would be received better by the public anyway.

The other lost hit was "Those DJ Shows", but Barbara isn't on it. But to me it sounds like something that would've really caught on with radio. Diana sounds great and Flo and Mary are cutting up. Perhaps the track would've needed to be punched up in some way, but other than that I think "DJ" made all the sense in the world as a followup to "Popcorn".

Barbara isn't on "Play A Sad Song" either. To me the group is so very different with Barbara and then without her. Flo and Mary step their game up when Barbara isn't around. [[Hence also "Those DJ Shows".)

I don't like "Hey Baby". I've always thought it was a song that fit more a guy group than a girl group. It should've gone to the Contours or the Tempts. Love Flo like I do, I believe one of her strengths was the up tempo stuff, but on the various versions of "Hey Baby" she lacks her usual gusto and polish. No way would it have ever gotten my vote as a single.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i agree that DJ sounds only like F and M in the backgrounds but it was recorded in Sept 61 so that should have included Barbara. Frankly i always found it hard to really hear here on Your Heart Belongs. but guess she is on it too

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She isn't on "DJ". Not sure why. Even in Mary's book when she recalls recording the song, she mentions that she, Flo and Diana left the studio singing the song all the way home. No mention of Barbara.

If you pay close attention on "Your Heart" you should be able to pick out Barbara's voice, especially toward the end. In fact I can hear Barbara better than I can Mary toward the end. Of course you have to get past Flo to do it.;)

Interesting comments and thoughts Ran.

You know i struggle with corny lyrics and so i think that's my big hangup with Buttered. yes i know that songs like Mashed Potato and other dance-themed songs were big at the time. But I think it's not a winner. I do find it fascinating though to listen through the different versions of here. agree that the 2nd released one is the best, as is Flo's lead on that one.

while i'd never say Hey Baby would have gone #1, i think the lyrics are a good fit for Flo as opposed to Save Me A Star. they're fun and sassy. IMO Flo's best leads were the ones where you could see the "wink" in her eye. That was a style that really fit her well, where she could sing big but also be playful with that wink. Save Me A Star is too prim and proper.

I'll need to listen to Play a Sad Song but i'm pretty sure all four girls are on it. the only info we have is that it and Who's Love You were recorded on 10/6/60. After All was on 10/1. so i think Barbara would have been present for the recording. would have been VERY odd to have missed it or skipped it since all 4 girls were so desperately trying to get signed.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

She isn't on "DJ". Not sure why. Even in Mary's book when she recalls recording the song, she mentions that she, Flo and Diana left the studio singing the song all the way home. No mention of Barbara.

If you pay close attention on "Your Heart" you should be able to pick out Barbara's voice, especially toward the end. In fact I can hear Barbara better than I can Mary toward the end. Of course you have to get past Flo to do it.;)

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it's an interesting discussion point to think what might have happened had Barbara stayed. I agree that she wouldn't have probably developed into a dynamic lead singer. But i wonder how she would have evolved. in the earliest recordings, yes the Sup backgrounds sound very adolescent and like the Marvelettes. But by the time of Your Heart Belongs, the sound was MUCH improved, much smoother. and the blend had improved markedly. So with time, how much more could the 3 girls in background evolved?

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

Interesting comments and thoughts Ran.

You know i struggle with corny lyrics and so i think that's my big hangup with Buttered. yes i know that songs like Mashed Potato and other dance-themed songs were big at the time. But I think it's not a winner. I do find it fascinating though to listen through the different versions of here. agree that the 2nd released one is the best, as is Flo's lead on that one.

while i'd never say Hey Baby would have gone #1, i think the lyrics are a good fit for Flo as opposed to Save Me A Star. they're fun and sassy. IMO Flo's best leads were the ones where you could see the "wink" in her eye. That was a style that really fit her well, where she could sing big but also be playful with that wink. Save Me A Star is too prim and proper.

I'll need to listen to Play a Sad Song but i'm pretty sure all four girls are on it. the only info we have is that it and Who's Love You were recorded on 10/6/60. After All was on 10/1. so i think Barbara would have been present for the recording. would have been VERY odd to have missed it or skipped it since all 4 girls were so desperately trying to get signed.

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In regards to "Popcorn", because your hangup appears to be the corny [[ha!) lyrics, you have to differentiate between the song's ability to hit and your ability to like it. I almost hate "The Happening" [[now that's a stupid, nonsensical song) but I can hear the hit in it. I'm still surprised it went #1, but had I been in the QC meeting I probably would've voted for it's release. Probably. I think. I don't know. Maybe.:o "Buttered Popcorn" was no different than the tons of other nonsense songs that were out at the time. And as I pointed out before, if the song is picking up airplay in the big markets like Chi and Philly, with a Motown push it might have caught on in other cities.

I've always thought it interesting that "Buttered Popcorn" made it onto vol 2 of Motown's 16 Big Hits series, of all the things to choose from. Also, when the Supremes got a mention in a 1962 Jet magazine Motown article, "Buttered Popcorn" was the song chosen to associate with them.

"Save Me A Star" was a better fit for Mary. Had "Heavenly Father" been styled similar to the way Aretha cut it many years later, it would have worked well with Flo's gospel side. As the Supremes cut it, it's a pleading doowop that probably also would've worked better with Mary rather than Flo. "Hey Baby" is certainly sassy enough for Flo, I just don't think she sounds all that hot on it. Her vocal delivery was missing that Flo thing that has made her voice a favorite of mine. "Too Hot" I think she may have really gotten into that one, although I do love hearing Flo in the background. And getting back to Barbara, I forgot about "Too Hot". That's another one where I like hearing Barbara.

"Play A Sad Song" was recorded in January 1962, not in 1960. Barbara was still in the group but she aint on the song. That background is pure Flo and Mary. And Diana's vocal skills have definitely kicked up several notches since those earliest recordings. She sounds great.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

it's an interesting discussion point to think what might have happened had Barbara stayed. I agree that she wouldn't have probably developed into a dynamic lead singer. But i wonder how she would have evolved. in the earliest recordings, yes the Sup backgrounds sound very adolescent and like the Marvelettes. But by the time of Your Heart Belongs, the sound was MUCH improved, much smoother. and the blend had improved markedly. So with time, how much more could the 3 girls in background evolved?

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Even with Barbara the Supremes were still better harmonizers than the Marvelettes. "Your Heart Belongs To Me" showcases Diana's growth as a vocalist, while Flo is more prominent in the background than the other girls, and that may have been a decision Smokey made in order to cover for the unsophisticated element in the harmony.

It's worth pointing out that the background on "He's 17" is remarkably good for a Barbara cut. She isn't flat, the sound is tight. I mean they have a really good harmony going on in that song. So to your point about "with time", I do think the sound would have evolved. But Flo, Diana and Mary had a chemistry that I'm not convinced would've shined with Barbara in the same way it would without her.

good point about the Big 16 Hits. it IS curious that BP got on there and not a Diana lead.

and good catch on PASS! I've updated my excel sheet accordingly :)


I think perhaps what hurt Buttered was Please Mr Postman. That was released in Aug 61 too and once it started to catch on, I'll be most of motown's efforts had to go to support it.

Good call about those alternative lead ideas. I think D or M could have done well with Save Me A Star. and i do think Too Hot would have worked better with Flo. Diana sounds pretty whiney on it.

“Word was still out that the Primettes needed a fourth member. Like me, Flo had studied music all through school. One of her teachers, knowing that Flo’s group needed another singer, remembered that Barbara Martin sang with Richard Street. Since Flo knew Richard, the teacher told Flo about Barbara, and then Flo told Richard Morris. None of us knew Barbara personally, but we all knew she was the tall, pretty girl who danced like a dream every weekend at the Graystone Ballroom. We didn’t even know if she could sing all that well, but we were hoping.
For some reason, I was the only Primette with Richard when we met Barbara. We could hear right away that Barbara was not a great singer, but she had a wonderful attitude about The Primettes that was very appealing. When we all got together a few days later, we all got along very well.”

Mary Wilson [[Dreamgirl: My Life as a Supreme)

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

good point about the Big 16 Hits. it IS curious that BP got on there and not a Diana lead t.

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Being a young Midwesterner, I always thought D was singing lead on Buttered Popcorn. I am sure I was not the only one.

As per Richard Street's autobiography,Barabra Martin was the lead singer in his first group called The Imperials.There is some other information in that book about The Primettes,
and before they were The Primettes

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Originally Posted by Zantellor

As per Richard Street's autobiography,Barabra Martin was the lead singer in his first group called The Imperials.There is some other information in that book about The Primettes,
and before they were The Primettes

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Interesting!! i never knew that

thanks for sharing

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Originally Posted by Zantellor

As per Richard Street's autobiography,Barabra Martin was the lead singer in his first group called The Imperials.There is some other information in that book about The Primettes,
and before they were The Primettes

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Yes, Richard said he helped the Primettes rehearse and get their act together. He was Diane's boyfriend for a good while during that time. Mary dated Melvin Franklin then.

The best Supremes songs with Barbara Martin:

After All
Baby Don't Go
He's Seventeen
Who's Loving You
Buttered Popcorn.

I always loved this song. I heard it on the radio once on a college radio station [[I think it was Hofstra's) some 40 years after it was recorded and went unreleased:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQlA7PFgvk

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

I think perhaps what hurt Buttered was Please Mr Postman. That was released in Aug 61 too and once it started to catch on, I'll be most of motown's efforts had to go to support it.

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You know what, you may be on to something here. There was obviously an interest on Motown's part for "Popcorn", hence the re-recording and then re-release of the single. Shortly thereafter "Postman" was released, and with Motown still in the early stages of it's business abilities, the label may have felt "Postman" deserved the push over anything else and turned it's attention to it, leaving "Popcorn" to disappear.

Another thing to consider is that the first two singles were released while the group was still in school. While "I Want a Guy" was never going to be a hit anywhere as far as I'm concerned, there was only so much promotion the girls could do for it on weekends. "Popcorn" gets a summer release, but the girls basically only have weeks [[after the re-release) to promote it before school starts up again. So it may have been a situation where Motown felt if the girls weren't going to be able to commit to the single, there was no use in putting promotional efforts behind it. The Supremes next single wouldn't be released until shortly before Diana and Mary graduated, and of course it would be their first single to chart.

Both of these scenarios make tons more sense than Gordy giving the finger to his own composition, as the myth goes.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

Good call about those alternative lead ideas. I think D or M could have done well with Save Me A Star. and i do think Too Hot would have worked better with Flo. Diana sounds pretty whiney on it.

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Diana does sound particularly whiney on it. Lol I love the backgrounds on both versions though.

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Originally Posted by Zantellor

As per Richard Street's autobiography,Barabra Martin was the lead singer in his first group called The Imperials.There is some other information in that book about The Primettes,
and before they were The Primettes

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Thanks Zant, very interesting information.

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Originally Posted by marv2

I always loved this song. I heard it on the radio once on a college radio station [[I think it was Hofstra's) some 40 years after it was recorded and went unreleased:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKQlA7PFgvk

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Since it's said to be the first song the group recorded at Motown, I wonder if it was always intended to be unreleased and was instead recorded to give Berry and the others a feel for each girl's lead singing abilities and how they come across on record. Had I been involved in early Motown and this song was presented to me for my thoughts:

Flo sounds like a naturally good singer, probably comes across as the most gifted [[if you think of voices in that way), yet doesn't really excite or jump out at the listener in this kind of song. Definitely can hear the gospel and blues influence, and when it comes to slower songs such as "After All", Flo would be a perfect fit for the ones with a gospel/blues spirit.

Mary is clearly at home with this kind of song. She plays the part well of a girl with boy problems. A good singer, she may have come across as having a niche, as opposed to being able to tackle various types of songs. Might've been my choice for lead if I wanted to rival the current girl groups at that time, like the Shirelles.

Barbara isn't a bad singer, but she is not the lead singer the other girls are. She could probably do all the lead of a song like "After All", but would probably struggle with anything remotely more complicated. I would also take note of how strong the background harmonies become when Barbara is doing the lead. Flo, Diana and Mary together sound great. Barbara does have a Carla Thomas vibe to her vocals.

Diana definitely has a voice that either some will love or some will be annoyed by, largely owing to the nasalness of her voice. But her voice is so different from the others in the group [[and probably on the radio) that it immediately captures attention. It also cuts through the song in a way I personally think is appealing. I could hear her voice being at home in a song like this or in something very different.

I would also consider that my feelings might would change on each girl's voice if they switched verses. Would I feel the same about Diana if she started the song off? Would Flo sound more at home if she closed the song and was able to ad lib her way out? Something to consider.

^ Good post, Ran. Very good thoughts about After All. One of my favorite early Supremes songs. Definitely not single material, but I'm so glad we have it.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Another thing to consider is that the first two singles were released while the group was still in school. While "I Want a Guy" was never going to be a hit anywhere as far as I'm concerned, there was only so much promotion the girls could do for it on weekends. "Popcorn" gets a summer release, but the girls basically only have weeks [[after the re-release) to promote it before school starts up again. So it may have been a situation where Motown felt if the girls weren't going to be able to commit to the single, there was no use in putting promotional efforts behind it. The Supremes next single wouldn't be released until shortly before Diana and Mary graduated, and of course it would be their first single to chart.

Both of these scenarios make tons more sense than Gordy giving the finger to his own composition, as the myth goes.

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The liner notes for MEET THE SUPREMES say something like this, re how two singles were released and then how the company decided to wait until the girls finished school before releasing a third.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

Since it's said to be the first song the group recorded at Motown, I wonder if it was always intended to be unreleased and was instead recorded to give Berry and the others a feel for each girl's lead singing abilities and how they come across on record. Had I been involved in early Motown and this song was presented to me for my thoughts:

Flo sounds like a naturally good singer, probably comes across as the most gifted [[if you think of voices in that way), yet doesn't really excite or jump out at the listener in this kind of song. Definitely can hear the gospel and blues influence, and when it comes to slower songs such as "After All", Flo would be a perfect fit for the ones with a gospel/blues spirit.

Mary is clearly at home with this kind of song. She plays the part well of a girl with boy problems. A good singer, she may have come across as having a niche, as opposed to being able to tackle various types of songs. Might've been my choice for lead if I wanted to rival the current girl groups at that time, like the Shirelles.

Barbara isn't a bad singer, but she is not the lead singer the other girls are. She could probably do all the lead of a song like "After All", but would probably struggle with anything remotely more complicated. I would also take note of how strong the background harmonies become when Barbara is doing the lead. Flo, Diana and Mary together sound great. Barbara does have a Carla Thomas vibe to her vocals.

Diana definitely has a voice that either some will love or some will be annoyed by, largely owing to the nasalness of her voice. But her voice is so different from the others in the group [[and probably on the radio) that it immediately captures attention. It also cuts through the song in a way I personally think is appealing. I could hear her voice being at home in a song like this or in something very different.

I would also consider that my feelings might would change on each girl's voice if they switched verses. Would I feel the same about Diana if she started the song off? Would Flo sound more at home if she closed the song and was able to ad lib her way out? Something to consider.

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CARLA THOMAS! That's it! That's who I was thinking Barbara Martin sounded like. Wow! "Gee Whiz"!

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Originally Posted by lucky2012

^ Good post, Ran. Very good thoughts about After All. One of my favorite early Supremes songs. Definitely not single material, but I'm so glad we have it.

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Thanks Lucky. I agree, I wouldn't have considered this for a single release, but it is good we have it, especially since it's the only time we'll probably hear Barbara on lead. [[I'm always hoping some very early Supremes live recordings will surface, and perhaps Barbara might be heard doing a song.)

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Originally Posted by reese

The liner notes for MEET THE SUPREMES say something like this, re how two singles were released and then how the company decided to wait until the girls finished school before releasing a third.

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Thanks Reese. Makes sense. Might be time to pull out my booklet and give it another read.

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Originally Posted by marv2

CARLA THOMAS! That's it! That's who I was thinking Barbara Martin sounded like. Wow! "Gee Whiz"!

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I once read someone describe Barbara's voice that way. It might have been back in the old yahoo groups days. Always thought the description was the best one in comparison to a known singer to Barbara.

The second version of "Tears Of Sorrow" is another one that I doubt was recorded with an intended release. It sounds like a demo version recorded in one of the girl's living rooms.

It's interesting that Florence,Mary and Barbara all sound right at home on this gospel tinged song. Diana sounds a bit like a fish out of water as the song simply does not suit her vocal style at all. Agree with the Carla Thomas analogy regarding Barbara's voice. Very similar.

Barbara does spoken bridge on "He's Seventeen"

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Originally Posted by markdtiller

Barbara does spoken bridge on "He's Seventeen"

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Yes. I have seen her do that part with Mary Wilson at show in Detroit in 1994. In concert, Barbara would perform the entire song as the lead.

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Originally Posted by Ollie9

It's interesting that Florence,Mary and Barbara all sound right at home on this gospel tinged song. Diana sounds a bit like a fish out of water as the song simply does not suit her vocal style at all.

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So interesting the way we all hear things so differently. I think Mary and Diana did the best job with it. Would've been great if there were full leads of the song for each lady. It really is a bit more difficult to judge based on only a verse. My opinions about any of them might change if they were singing the entire song, in the same way it might change if they switched verses.