60s Live Versus 70s Live

The thread on "New Ways" really got me thinking about the Supremes in concert, and how completely DIFFERENT their live act was from the 60's to the 70's. I'm not talking about the sound or the songs per se [[except maybe the overture), but the overall flow.

In the 60's, everything seemed very calculated, very scripted, very tight. Mary always looks so grand; her arm gestures are effortless. Cindy is light and airy like cotton candy. And Diana, well, honey, Diana is Diana. And while there is a fair amount of choreography, Diana, Mary, and Cindy float around onstage in unison in a very small capacity.

Then you've got the 70's Supremes. It's sort of a free-for-all. Twists and turns and instead of a cohesive group, you've got three individuals going for it! Who do you keep your eyes on? Who is going to trip over the miles of microphone cord? Scherrie is cutting up in the audience, Mary is stage left snapping in large circles and doing a TCB twirl, Susaye is stage right hootin' and hollerin' for Jesus. There's choreography, and an Arabian scarf dance, and champagne flowing! Is it a concert, or a three-ring circus?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-httVFclwGM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8MqjmaTKKw

i think we need to subdivide the time periods even more.

the Jean era seems to mostly have the same approach of 1 lead and 2 additional singers. but at least M and C [[and later L) weren't relegated quite as much to the background. they aren't literally 5 feet behind the lead mic position on stage

there's a clip of MJC on stage, in the round. if you got to youtube and search for Supremes All I Want live, you'll find it. there's no audio from the show and so the poster used AIW from the jimmy webb set. upon inspection you can recognize some of the choreography as Up The Ladder and Stop. And at one point, mary is at the "lead" mic singing something and then jean returns to it. obviously the settings for this mic were such that it was at the appropriate audio levels for the lead vocals. you'll also see M and C at their mics with Jean taking the lead mic in hand and doing more movement around the stage

Also if you listen to the audio bootlegs of live shows, like Central Park, you'll hear much more group interaction in the dialogs. Jean definitely speaks the most but mary is much more involved and Cindy also has segments in the script. so it's much more of a group effort

once Scherrie joined the group, mary is clearly working to position herself as the primary "leader" of the group, even if she does or does not handle all of the lead vocals. her mic is usually dominate [[although this could very well be distortions from years of bootlegs so hard to really judge this) and she handles the majority of the audience interaction and dialog. she also does about 50% or so of the leads

most of the MSC video i've seen still has a lead and 2 singers in terms of their position on stage. it's when Susaye joins that it becomes more of a free-for-all. they increase the amount of 3-part singing and also in the trading off of lines in songs. and they all seem to mostly use hand mics and work the stage.

The Supremes were still very much a "group" though the Jean and Lynda years. I think the assessment is right that once Scherrie joined [[and later Susaye), Mary decided to take matters into her own hands.

I don't think "sloppy" is the right word for the clips I've seen of MSS. It's just more of a frenzy. Everything seems a bit faster, a bit harried. No more controlled chaos; just chaos.

Of course it's hard to compare when there are so little video clips of the other groupings in concert. Tons of DMC and MSS, but little or nothing of anything else.

There is one clip that always cracks me up; MSS in the blue icicle gowns, joined on stage with Udo? I think that's his name. Mary jumps up on a piano in an effort to exude sex. It's not pretty.

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Originally Posted by marybrewster

The Supremes were still very much a "group" though the Jean and Lynda years. I think the assessment is right that once Scherrie joined [[and later Susaye), Mary decided to take matters into her own hands.

I don't think "sloppy" is the right word for the clips I've seen of MSS. It's just more of a frenzy. Everything seems a bit faster, a bit harried. No more controlled chaos; just chaos.

Of course it's hard to compare when there are so little video clips of the other groupings in concert. Tons of DMC and MSS, but little or nothing of anything else.

There is one clip that always cracks me up; MSS in the blue icicle gowns, joined on stage with Udo? I think that's his name. Mary jumps up on a piano in an effort to exude sex. It's not pretty.

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and sprawling across a piano is not exactly the best posture for singing either. she misses a couple notes in her brief solo line in the solo. Susaye sounds amazing though. my guess is they gave her the larger solo part in Walk Away since she didn't have a lead number. earlier in the show Scherrie did Wheel and Mary did You Are Heart. I do like that there was more of an effort to share the vocals. although it got a bit much sometimes. too many lines being bounced from one to another. it's sort of like a pendulum. they had gone too far 1 direction during the DRATS era and then swung too far the other with the MSS era

The big problem with all grouping of Supremes was that we had to suffer through standards and their renditions of other people's hit records before we got to a Supremes hit. I saw the JML lineup in LA in 1973. Stoned Love and Bad Weather were the only hits done in full, the rest a quick, rushed medley. I had to sit through Cabaret to hear Bad Weather. Then they did a 15 minute Tossin' and Turnin' to close the show and it was so generic that it got boring. To my ears the only standards the group did that I liked were I Am Woman and You're Nobody. In the later years I enjoyed Mary's The Way We Were and how Scherrie tore up Maybe This Time. For whatever reason this came out of the act after Susaye joined.

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Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan

The big problem with all grouping of Supremes was that we had to suffer through standards and their renditions of other people's hit records before we got to a Supremes hit. I saw the JML lineup in LA in 1973. Stoned Love and Bad Weather were the only hits done in full, the rest a quick, rushed medley. I had to sit through Cabaret to hear Bad Weather. Then they did a 15 minute Tossin' and Turnin' to close the show and it was so generic that it got boring. To my ears the only standards the group did that I liked were I Am Woman and You're Nobody. In the later years I enjoyed Mary's The Way We Were and how Scherrie tore up Maybe This Time. For whatever reason this came out of the act after Susaye joined.

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agree!

in the 60s and when trying to break into the supper club circuit, you had to cater to that style and approach. and the At The Copa set shows how Motown and the Sups did this perfectly. and during the DMF years, the specialty project albums and the standards on tv helped to push them into the Show Biz world.

IMO the problem is that motown didn't adequately predict and prepare for the declination in this genre of club work and the rise of the youth market. Billboard published an annual College market issue and by the mid 60s, the Sups were not even really advertising in this.

in the 70s the girls were definitely trying to straddle two different worlds. big supper clubs and the youth market. they should have just approached their touring with 2 shows. one MOR and one Youth. You're right that they weren't promoting enough of their own music. and their choice for filler material was rather out of touch.

Scherrie was a powerhouse on maybe this time, but by 76 and 77, i don't think people were interested in hearing a Liza song from Cabaret that was 6 years old

Actually the audio I’ve heard of the JMC era is both Mary and Jean were equally speaking. I think it depends on the gig

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

i think we need to subdivide the time periods even more.

the Jean era seems to mostly have the same approach of 1 lead and 2 additional singers. but at least M and C [[and later L) weren't relegated quite as much to the background. they aren't literally 5 feet behind the lead mic position on stage

there's a clip of MJC on stage, in the round. if you got to youtube and search for Supremes All I Want live, you'll find it. there's no audio from the show and so the poster used AIW from the jimmy webb set. upon inspection you can recognize some of the choreography as Up The Ladder and Stop. And at one point, mary is at the "lead" mic singing something and then jean returns to it. obviously the settings for this mic were such that it was at the appropriate audio levels for the lead vocals. you'll also see M and C at their mics with Jean taking the lead mic in hand and doing more movement around the stage

Also if you listen to the audio bootlegs of live shows, like Central Park, you'll hear much more group interaction in the dialogs. Jean definitely speaks the most but mary is much more involved and Cindy also has segments in the script. so it's much more of a group effort

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

Scherrie was a powerhouse on maybe this time, but by 76 and 77, i don't think people were interested in hearing a Liza song from Cabaret that was 6 years old

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Or "We've Only Just Begun", another "oldie" by 1976.

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Originally Posted by blackguy69

Actually the audio I’ve heard of the JMC era is both Mary and Jean were equally speaking. I think it depends on the gig

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that very well could be.

the All I Want video on youtube shows a really engaged Jean and i know sometimes on here fans think she might have been too reserved. i know i've said that but i'm also going off of primarily the tv shows. and of course those have to be much more tightly controlled than a live stage act. the interviews, the blocking etc on tv might have been too confining.

I’ve seen that video quite a number of times. Whoever recording it was fixated on Mary

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

that very well could be.

the All I Want video on youtube shows a really engaged Jean and i know sometimes on here fans think she might have been too reserved. i know i've said that but i'm also going off of primarily the tv shows. and of course those have to be much more tightly controlled than a live stage act. the interviews, the blocking etc on tv might have been too confining.

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One thing about that video, it proves that Mary and Cindy were not the lazy just stand there hand clappers how some fans view them.

it's a great clip. just wish the audio would surface and the rest of the video would too!

The 60s DRATS concert looks effortless [[even though it wasn't) as they made it all so smooth and polished. That 70s show at Montreux is flop sweat in action--they are all trying so hard to entertain and it shows.

I never got to see the 60's Supremes live and saw JMC just once, at the Royal Box showroom of the American Hotel in Manhattan. They sounded good, looked great and went through the motions as quickly as possible to get-on-and-get-off in time for the 10PM show. I recall the band being quite good and the well-heeled not-necessarily-fans audience responded well, but though there was a 'knowing cackle' or two in response to Mary's who-was-that-other lead singer there were also some audible 'boo's. The show was professional, fast-paced and without a shred of personality or individuality [[other than Jean's singing).

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Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony

I never got to see the 60's Supremes live and saw JMC just once, at the Royal Box showroom of the American Hotel in Manhattan. They sounded good, looked great and went through the motions as quickly as possible to get-on-and-get-off in time for the 10PM show. I recall the band being quite good and the well-heeled not-necessarily-fans audience responded well, but though there was a 'knowing cackle' or two in response to Mary's who-was-that-other lead singer there were also some audible 'boo's. The show was professional, fast-paced and without a shred of personality or individuality [[other than Jean's singing).

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wow - some boos?!?! that's a bit extreme. or were they in response to mary's line about Diana?

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Originally Posted by Spreadinglove21

The 60s DRATS concert looks effortless [[even though it wasn't) as they made it all so smooth and polished. That 70s show at Montreux is flop sweat in action--they are all trying so hard to entertain and it shows.

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the Talk of Town album and the video we have of that show definitely appear effortless. the show was highly prescribed and it works really well

the few bootlegs i have of Jean shows seem to be quite well paced too. the audio is rough so it's hard to hear everything. but overall seems really solid.

and i don't think the Mary-led shows from 74 on were all bad. the Japan show with MSC seemed pretty solid. i might have selected different tunes and had scherrie take on a bigger role. but it didn't seem chaotic

I listen to the Live in Japan from 73 with JLM and I liked Caberet medley but can take the Cherry Pie ,tossing and Turning.
No need for a 70s medley but since this was a tv special I suppose I'll over look it.
If this had been a regular concert I expect hits

It's been so long but , any special memories of performances..
I vaguely remember Lean On Me.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

wow - some boos?!?! that's a bit extreme. or were they in response to mary's line about Diana?

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Yes, a response to 'cute' jibes against Diana. Not major booing, mind you, just a quick sort of 'we're not here for that' sort of thing.

I think the Supremes were doing too many songs from other artist or standards whatever during their live shows. It's just a matter of personal taste but I prefer their own stuff and album songs, I'd love to hear a live version of ask any girl for example. I love the '66 Roostertail show which still has many of the songs almost in full and not in a medley. I think during the 60's the mixed standards and own hits shows worked for both young audience and posh establishments but I feel they had to change it for the 70's.

In the 70's they lacked massive hits and only Stoned Love seems to be played in full at most of their shows, at least the live shows I've heard. But by 77' the song was already more than 6 years old. Why did they drop Up the Ladder so quickly from their act?? It was after all their 2nd best single in the 70's. Were Automatically Sunshine and Floy Joy ever performed live in full?

I'm glad Mary changed Can't take my eyes for Memories. It was in their act far too long. Susaye sounds good on He ain't heavy. The '74 Japan show is by far my favourite it feels lively, in a good way, and the backing band sounds good. Also love how Mary and Cindy are so in sync when they do their moves on Stoned Love during that show.

Diana did just as many standards and other people’s songs but doesn’t get the criticism for it.

Didn't see keep Lady is a tramp in her show far too long after she went solo? Got annoying too :D:rolleyes:. By 74' she had enough solo material to do a show with just her own songs.

She could have but didn’t

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Originally Posted by TYK1986

Didn't see keep Lady is a tramp in her show far too long after she went solo? Got annoying too :D:rolleyes:. By 74' she had enough solo material to do a show with just her own songs.

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