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While I still maintain my opinion that disco was not the direction for Mary, I wonder if "Midnight" had been the first single if it would've been better received than "Red Hot". "Red Hot" is a great title for an album, but I don't think anyone could've turned that into a hit. "Midnight" seems much more radio friendly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QBe74NQ7hk
I think that Midnight Dancer would have been a better choice than Red Hot. Her album was titled Mary Wilson, not Red Hot. I think many fans have chosen to call it that to give it a name. It took me many years to appreciate the song Red Hot and how Mary was channeling James Brown in the song. I always preferred Midnight Dancer along with I Love A Warm Summer Night[[which was more in keeping with what she excelled at) and You're The Light That Guides My Way. Still, had Motown stuck by her and released a second album and promoted it properly, she easily could have had a hit with You Dance My Heart Around The Stars and Love Talk. Motown gave her masters back and said it was only releasing disco music and this was after the disco is dead movement. After diana was released, Ross had It's My Turn as a single , a very non-disco song. I believe Motown put Mary through the ringer so she wouldn't sue again and led her down the recording contract promises with music not tailored for her abilities and when that didn't totally work, they pointed to that and released her. I wouldn't have chosen Red Hot as her lead single, but I have grown to appreciate it.
Not only is “Red Hot” as boring as hell, i consider it the weakest song on the album. Almost any other track would have done better, with “Midnight Dancer” having the best chance of success.
I think there was skullduggery involved here. Motown wanted shot.
Bandwagon disco product was just that. The club DJs didn't respect it, weren't looking for it , they wanted the innovative groundbreaking stuff. The radio programmers weren't looking to add disco to their tight rosters, much of the best disco never made it , the best chance of airplay was through force by word of mouth by listeners or from competitive play on other stations.
Even IF a programmer was thinking , "hey a release by Supreme member Mary Wilson , let's give it a shot ", upon previewing it likely thought , "damn not another disco record"....
If the clubs didn't embrace it, chances for radio success were about nil.
Midnight had a more interest backing track and melody than Red Hot. but the lyrics are pretty useless.
the majority of this album was just generic disco. if you listen to the things that were hot in late summer 79 and you find that Donna Summer had recently released the Bad Girls album.
Michael Jackson released Off The Wall in April
chic released Risque in July, which contained Good Times.
so the music that was on MW really just wasn't compelling enough to break through, even in the clubs.
I first heard Midnight Dancer when I was allowed to sit in for part of a rehearsal the Sunday afternoon before Mary opened at New York, New York. That song seemed contemporary and engaging rhythmically, if not lyrically. I first heard Red Hot several nights later, the night after her week-long run began. That song seemed terribly wrong, largely because of the "Beechwood 4-5789" reference, which was either an out-of-date allusion or a sign of laziness and/o lack of imagination on the part of the writer. I don't recall what I expected on learning that Mary was striking out on her own, but I'm quite sure I was not looking for a quotation from a song some 15+ years old, especially as the single release; I expected something fresh and new.
Yes, I know the album is self titled, but "Red Hot", with a cover to go along with it, probably would've been better. As I said, titling the album RH made sense, but leading the singles with it? Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99
Clearly Motown was ready to be rid of Mary. As a label they had never really been in her corner after Diana left, and in all likelihood would have probably been okay had she cut her losses and moved on after Jean and Lynda left. The fact that they gave her the masters to the GD sessions speaks volumes. I imagine Gordy and co giving an Angela Bassett aka Bernadine from Waiting To Exhale moment when releasing Mary and handing her those masters:
"Get yo shit...get yo shit...and get out!":cool:
Half the disco hits' lyrics were useless. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Yeah, Mary's disco just wasn't going to cut it against what was out at the time. Just a horrible direction. My favorite cut on the album is "Pick Up the Pieces". It's the only song that I feel was right on point for Mary's strengths as an artist [[though there are other songs on the album that she sings fairly well), and thus really the only song I think had any chance of catching on.
I don't know if anyone at Motown actually listened to the GD tracks. What might the story of Mary Wilson have been had Motown listened to what she did on these and decided to fully get behind a second album? I think she would have scored at least one legit hit out of the four songs she did. Who knows what was waiting to be recorded had an entire project been greenlit.
Pretty generic disco without much of a hook to it; better than Red Hot but it wasn’t going to be a hit
1979 was 10 years too late for launching the solo career and using the Supremes as a springboard. Management of the Supremes had been a disaster. It’s hard to see how any label would have seen much of a reason to get mixed up in this and put much money into it. The good side of Berry may have agreed to give Mary one shot due to the years with the Supremes - but much more made no sense
yeah motown had 0 interest in mary. even prior to Diana's departure. i don't know why but for whatever reason Berry had no interest in investing in her development, partnering with her on her growth. maybe it was a personality clash [[not saying the fought), different views on what she should do? who knowsQuote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
add on top of that the managerial problems with the group in the 70s and motown pretty much was over them. not saying that the problems were all solely the group members' fault. the girls had little to no say [[from what i understand) in the managerial decisions of what the group would do and how they would be presented. being an adult, jean wasn't cool with this. and we all know the rest
i think motown would have been totally fine with the Sups disbanding in 73 when J and L left. no question about it
but mary was right - she had no other options available at that time. MAYBE another label would have signed MJL and tried them out using a new name. but J and M were so far gone with each other that it wouldn't have lasted. and Jean wasn't going to be any easier for that new label to deal with
i wonder about the GD tracks too. i'm just attempting to tie up various fan stories - so this may or may not be true. but based on what's been said here over the years, i don't think motown went out and found Gus. i wonder if mary went out and started recording with him w/o motown's permission, but expecting them to pay it. let's face it - mary has made some poor business decisions over the years, focusing on what needs to be done in the moment versus what might happen down the road. she was also working with an outside producer and from what i've always understood, the artists and motown did not have that authority.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
motown had no plans on doing a second album with her anyway nor continuing their agreement. they had not signed a contract with Gus for him to producer their artist so technically motown didn't own the masters. so when mary left the label, motown would have had no rights to the tracks, hence her having them
just my speculation
In SUPREME FAITH, Mary wrote that her five-year contract called for her to record two lps per year. For the 70s, that sounds strange. Maybe the fine print didn't require that Motown release them. In any event, she said that Pedro thought it would be a good idea for her to work with someone outside of Motown and he and Motown's English rep found Gus. She went on to say that Motown didn't like any of the songs, gave her the masters [[reportedly the first time they had ever done that), and dropped her from the label.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
motown always had the option as to whether or not to continue with the recording arrangement. yeah i agree that 2 lps a year is a bit high at this time. but motown retained the option to continue or not.
again my speculation is that Mary/Pedro went and found Gus and they started recording. but motown never agreed to it and never contracted it. but SOMEONE had to pay Gus and the studio time and all. i'm sure he didn't just do it for free. so if motown didn't contract with him and didn't pay him, then i guess mary would have.
Midnight Dancer was a much stronger song and should have been the single. All those howls and cat noises on Red Hot are TOO EXTRA, lol.
I really disliked the MARY WILSON album for years...or decades. When it first came out, I was so, so, so disappointed, and I seldom ever played the album. Then, about ten or fifteen years back, I listened to the album and fell in love with it. I'm not sure what changed for me, but I totally re-discovered the record, and I grew to love it. For what it was - a fairly formulaic disco album - it was damn well done. It just came out at the wrong time, and Motown did nothing - NOTHING - to support the release.
As for singles, the clear choice would have been PICK UP THE PIECES. That song could have been a hit with a tad of promotion.
That's the sad part about it. I've said it before, so I'm just repeating myself, but who cares? That's all we do around here these days anyway.:p But her confidence in herself and her inability to take risks really inhibited her options. The voice was there, the look was there, she had the goods on stage. All she needed was the confidence and someone to have an idea of what to do with her. Did Mary have a voice that was going to set the world on fire? Not in my opinion. But did she have a voice to keep her working? Did she have a voice to record albums and singles, to various degrees of success? Sure thing. I look over my music collections and read up on different discographies and am amazed at some of the folks who managed to secure recording contract after recording contract, some, dare I say, with half the talent Mary had. So it wasn't a real case that she had no options when Jean and Lynda flew the coop. It was a mental corner she had backed herself into.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Not that I'm judging her. Self confidence is a problem for so many people, no fault of their own. But of all the Supremes, Mary seemed to be the one that for quite some time wasn't convinced of her abilities. Diana didn't really have that problem. Neither did Florence. Jean and Lynda, and later, Scherrie and Susaye didn't either. [[Hard to say with Cindy.) All those ladies were convinced of their talent and it would've been tough to convince them of anything else. What if Mary had given Motown the finger in 1974? [[Or 73? Did Jean and Lynda officially leave in 73 or 74?) What if she had convinced herself that she was worthy of the music industry and a career in it on her own merit and talent, how different might the MW story be? Of course Mary's story is similar to a lot of folks stories, many of whom never even step into the business because of fear. I remember how back in the day we used to talk about how crazy it was to think that as good as Michael Jordan was, there was some guy at home sitting on his ass who could make Jordan look like a scrub. Likewise it's crazy to consider how many singers whom we could have or could be enjoying have never even gotten a foot in the door because their self confidence is zero.
Anyway, by the time Mary did get it together in her mind, she was officially the Supremes' Mary Wilson and wouldn't, or couldn't, break away from that.
Somebody would've had to pay, and it's unlikely that it was Mary. If no payment, wouldn't GD own the masters since he produced them? Maybe the theory of Motown using the debut album as a way to satisfy the lawsuit thing isn't as accurate as we tend to think. Maybe Motown was onboard with a second album, paid for the four song session[[s), but then soured on the idea and told Mary "bye", masters and all? Or maybe GD wanted his money up front and Mary paid when she still had money to do so? I'm under the impression that it was right after Motown let her go that she was in a financial bind.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
Thanks for that info Reese. Definitely answers some of my questions. So it is possible that Motown foot the bill on the tracks since someone from Motown was affiliated. Also answers that someone at Motown heard the tracks and didn't like them. Whoever that was: IDIOT.Quote:
Originally Posted by reese
Yeah, if going for best chance of success, "Pieces" is the no brainer. Stands up against the similar smooth cuts of the day and might have been a welcome change from the constant disco on the radio. I don't know if it would've been a pop hit, but it definitely would've made a lot of noise in R&B.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercarter2u
i think the problem was Mary attempting to be a pop singer and living the glamorous ultra-rich lifestyle of a Supreme. i don't blame her - it certainly would be hard for anyone to be living huge as a Sup and then try to revert to a "normal person"Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
i do think mary had a good voice but not for traditional Billboard Top 40 Pop. sure she could have some breakthroughs here and there with tunes like Anita Baker or Roberta Flack. but her talents really better aligned in other genres. like blues or jazz. Those typically, though, don't align with mega mansions and 8-figure recording contracts. there are a lot of ways to define success and IMO she tried to continue to use the Supremes benchmark which wasn't realistic.
But i didn't know her personally so these are just outsider observations.
the only financial info i have is based on her books. she paints the picture that during the Scherrie years they were making money but things were getting tighter and tighter. they moved into the mansion in Hancock Park but she said they probably shouldn't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by RanRan79
after the July 77 farewell, there was the summer S America tour which my opinion was undertaking due to poor management by pedro and Mary needing the money. but that then put her at odds with motown and on the outs. but now she wasn't recording anywhere, wasn't performing anywhere and so she would have been very precarious financially here.
So in Sept 77 she files her lawsuit and now is, more or less, severed from motown. If i recall, motown let things drag along trying to bleed her out. early 78 - is that when she tells the story of moving out of the mansion and pedro selling her ring?
then we don't hear much of finances until her divorce and borrowing money from Diana.
as for the Gus tracks, yeah i have no idea how those came about. Did he contract with motown? did he do any other work for the label? did mary front the money? all just speculation on my part. but my guess is that if motown had paid for the tracks, they would have kept the masters. motown always knew to control things.
I was referring specifically to the time when Jean and Lynda left, but it sort of applies to the 80s also. As far as Mary's direction, with the right producer and song she could've had top 40 hits. The truth is that, at that time anyway, the top 40 was made up of so much varied music and voices. Mary's strength was the ballads and mellow type cuts. Albums full of these could've been a treat. Who knows what sort of singles would've been lifted from them. All past and gone now though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
As far as "living", well Mary was able to live the Supreme lifestyle when Motown was basically handling everything, which allowed the label to ensure that Mary never knew just how much money she was bringing into the company. Once Motown stopped doing that, it was a rude awakening for Mary. Now imagine what it was like when Diana discovered the same thing. Luckily for Diana, she had the resume that allowed her get a 20 million dollar deal elsewhere and thus was able to continue to afford her lifestyle. Imagine if the industry had decided she wasn't worth that? Yikes!