O Holy Night by the great Flo Ballard

Received my Ultimate Supremes Xmas CD recently and have been listening to this track frequently as well as Silent Night. It's really a crime they left her tracks off the final album. I did like Mary's vocal on the Christmas Song as well, that would have made for a great inclusion as well. There's something very heavenly about Flo's voice on O Holy Night though and if she could sound that good with just being a background singer, I can only imagine how great she'd have sounded had she gotten the proper training that Diana received. Where my Flo fans at?

I think if you go back and look at the forum when this was released, you'll find a very lively discussion of this very topic. I recall many of us praising the Flo tracks and I remember commenting specifically on how "fresh" Mary sounded on the remixed duet with Diana.

was thrilled to have the duet with Diana and Mary on Christmas Song. especially at the very end when Mary sing "Merry christmas" and her voice and phrasing are sublime.

there are parts of Flo's leads i like and some i don't. My biggest complain isn't with Flo but with the insanely slow tempo the producers chose to record these tracks at. I've heard funeral dirges with more energy and tempo. I don't know why they opted so often to do this - People is the same thing. so damn slow

when songs are so dragged out, it's challenging for singers to maintain pitch on long notes and that's much of Flo's problems here. she's holding these notes and just not on pitch.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

was thrilled to have the duet with Diana and Mary on Christmas Song. especially at the very end when Mary sing "Merry christmas" and her voice and phrasing are sublime.

there are parts of Flo's leads i like and some i don't. My biggest complain isn't with Flo but with the insanely slow tempo the producers chose to record these tracks at. I've heard funeral dirges with more energy and tempo. I don't know why they opted so often to do this - People is the same thing. so damn slow

when songs are so dragged out, it's challenging for singers to maintain pitch on long notes and that's much of Flo's problems here. she's holding these notes and just not on pitch.

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I guess I don't notice it being off pitch cause I love her take on all three of the songs mentioned.

Flo had a strong and powerful voice. I like her voice, she sounds similar in power to Etta James. When she did hold notes long, her pitch did waver. My personal taste in voices, I prefer Diana and Mary more than Flo. Diana was very flexible and could sell a song, Mary was very warm and could sell a song. I always thought Scherrie Payne had the power in her voice that Flo had, yet she had the opportunities to sing lead and strengthen her voice in ways that Flo never had the opportunity to do so. I see someone also feels the tempo on Flo's songs seem somewhat too slow, I noticed that on some of her solo ABC material. I wonder why that choice was made. Still, we all have been fortunate to hear some of the very few songs that Flo and Mary were allowed to lead on now.

As proved here, Flo could certainly belt out a song. As such, it’s interesting to ponder just what her voice might have sounded like as it matured given more sophisticated accompaniment.
If nothing else, her ABC recordings prove that unlike Diana, Flo’s voice couldn’t adapt to any musical genre.
I think Christmas songs were a good fit for both Flo and Mary’s voices, though nowhere near as unique as Lady Di.

if i had been producing the Xmas set, i would have done:

1. Flo on either Silent or Holy and sped them up a little. just keep them from dragging
2. then add something like Santa Baby or I saw mommy kissing santa. maybe Rocking Around The Christmas Tree. something with some pep and something with a bit of *wink* like Santa Baby. Flo did such an amazing job with Good News and much of that was playing off her personality. you know the "party" which she refers to isn't just a bunch of people waiting at home with cocktails and all to celebrate. You know what PARTY flo is REALLY talking about! lol

it's similar to some of her Pearl Bailey-esque comments and ad libs in the show. this is an element in flo's vocal delivery that they could have explored more.

Flo had a big voice but those can often [[as almost always are in younger singers) unwieldly. with young repertory opera singers, they need extensive training to help control the instrument. that's why, even with a big voice, a young singer is never cast as Aida. they work up to that. Flo had a big voice and often it was lovely but often it was a bit all over the place too. it's a shame they didn't find ways to explore it more

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

if i had been producing the Xmas set, i would have done:

1. Flo on either Silent or Holy and sped them up a little. just keep them from dragging
2. then add something like Santa Baby or I saw mommy kissing santa. maybe Rocking Around The Christmas Tree. something with some pep and something with a bit of *wink* like Santa Baby. Flo did such an amazing job with Good News and much of that was playing off her personality. you know the "party" which she refers to isn't just a bunch of people waiting at home with cocktails and all to celebrate. You know what PARTY flo is REALLY talking about! lol

it's similar to some of her Pearl Bailey-esque comments and ad libs in the show. this is an element in flo's vocal delivery that they could have explored more.

Flo had a big voice but those can often [[as almost always are in younger singers) unwieldly. with young repertory opera singers, they need extensive training to help control the instrument. that's why, even with a big voice, a young singer is never cast as Aida. they work up to that. Flo had a big voice and often it was lovely but often it was a bit all over the place too. it's a shame they didn't find ways to explore it more

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Oh I could totally see Flo hamming it up with Santa Baby, especially if she used the same vocal style she used on the alternative Makes No Difference Now.

I actually can hear Mary doing Rockin Around the Christmas Tree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TkWeQfdpo4

gorgeous.
best new thing for my ears this Christmas.
I find the pace to be one of patience and calm with dignity. The point is the words themselves. Purposeful.
Puts a new slant on Flo for me. Nice.

not to hijack the thread but I also think Flo should have done the full lead on Davey Crocket. she would have really had fun with the lyric. as with Johnny One Note on R&H

maybe mary could have done In the Land Of make Believe or someday my prince will come

I trust its intentional on this youtube submission :

as Flo sings oh holy night the staaars are briiightly shiiiining ...

the fade opens as the stars are seen approaching the stage in sparkling gowns

Boogiedown you need to check out the alternate vocal take on the Ultimate Xmas edition, it's even better!

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Originally Posted by floyjoy678

Received my Ultimate Supremes Xmas CD recently and have been listening to this track frequently as well as Silent Night. It's really a crime they left her tracks off the final album. I did like Mary's vocal on the Christmas Song as well, that would have made for a great inclusion as well. There's something very heavenly about Flo's voice on O Holy Night though and if she could sound that good with just being a background singer, I can only imagine how great she'd have sounded had she gotten the proper training that Diana received. Where my Flo fans at?

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Flo fan here Floy! I'm not as fond of Flo's "Silent Night" as I am her "Oh Holy Night", which I think is...divine.:cool: I love the alternate vocal and mix even better than the original release version. Flo had chops and it is a pity that she was not positioned to be able to hone her lead singing abilities more.

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Originally Posted by Ollie9

As proved here, Flo could certainly belt out a song. As such, it’s interesting to ponder just what her voice might have sounded like as it matured given more sophisticated accompaniment.
If nothing else, her ABC recordings prove that unlike Diana, Flo’s voice couldn’t adapt to any musical genre.
I think Christmas songs were a good fit for both Flo and Mary’s voices, though nowhere near as unique as Lady Di.

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I don't know about that Ollie. Half the songs Flo cut at ABC wouldn't have been a good pairing for Diana either. Flo was not a "pop" singer. That's what Diana, and honestly even Mary, had over her. Both Diana and Mary could do R&B as well, but they also had voices that had a pop quality to them that made a perfect fit with a lot of the current music at the time. Flo was soul, bluesy, jazzy, and there was a sophistication to it that I think leant itself well to certain standards and showtunes. At another label, like Atlantic for instance, Flo's first solo go would probably have produced a better quality of tunes. If the Supremes had come about in the mid 50s [[meaning if they were ten years older and started their group ten years before they actually did), Flo probably would have been the lead singer and excelled at it. The group came about at just the right time for a voice like Diana's to be taken seriously. While I'm not as much of a fan of Flo's "People" as I once was, I always have to point out that audiences at the time apparently loved it, which is why it was in the act for so long.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

if i had been producing the Xmas set, i would have done:

1. Flo on either Silent or Holy and sped them up a little. just keep them from dragging
2. then add something like Santa Baby or I saw mommy kissing santa. maybe Rocking Around The Christmas Tree. something with some pep and something with a bit of *wink* like Santa Baby. Flo did such an amazing job with Good News and much of that was playing off her personality. you know the "party" which she refers to isn't just a bunch of people waiting at home with cocktails and all to celebrate. You know what PARTY flo is REALLY talking about! lol

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I think Mary would've been a good fit for "I Saw Mommy" and "Rockin Around the Christmas Tree". The truth is that I could see alternate versions of "Santa Baby" with each lady doing a lead in order to figure out which version would be the best because Flo, Diana and Mary all had that certain sexy something that could've made a Supremes "Santa Baby" fire.

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Originally Posted by floyjoy678

I actually can hear Mary doing Rockin Around the Christmas Tree.

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I just said the same thing. Lol Might have also been interesting to hear Mary's take on "Christmas Baby Please Come Home" by Darlene Love.

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Originally Posted by sup_fan

not to hijack the thread but I also think Flo should have done the full lead on Davey Crocket. she would have really had fun with the lyric. as with Johnny One Note on R&H

maybe mary could have done In the Land Of make Believe or someday my prince will come

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It's interesting that "Davy" is listed as completed in 1968 [[March I think) and that DFTMC lists it as Flo, Diana and Mary on lead. Makes me wonder if the original recording was each lady taking a verse and since Flo was gone by 68, when the album was being readied for possible completion [[finally), Mary was charged with the full lead. But then that doesn't explain Flo's "rap". I did think too that listing Flo as a lead was because of her speaking parts, but that doesn't make sense because Diana is listed as lead and she doesn't speak. Plus none of the other songs with Flo and Mary speaking, like "Fancy Passes", are listed this way. Very interesting track, "Ballad of Davy Crockett".

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

I don't know about that Ollie. Half the songs Flo cut at ABC wouldn't have been a good pairing for Diana either. Flo was not a "pop" singer. That's what Diana, and honestly even Mary, had over her. Both Diana and Mary could do R&B as well, but they also had voices that had a pop quality to them that made a perfect fit with a lot of the current music at the time. Flo was soul, bluesy, jazzy, and there was a sophistication to it that I think leant itself well to certain standards and showtunes. At another label, like Atlantic for instance, Flo's first solo go would probably have produced a better quality of tunes. If the Supremes had come about in the mid 50s [[meaning if they were ten years older and started their group ten years before they actually did), Flo probably would have been the lead singer and excelled at it. The group came about at just the right time for a voice like Diana's to be taken seriously. While I'm not as much of a fan of Flo's "People" as I once was, I always have to point out that audiences at the time apparently loved it, which is why it was in the act for so long.

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I consider Mary to be the one with a voice more suited to jazz then pop. Regarding standards, i think Flo sounds like a fish out of water singing “People”, but perhaps it did sound better live. The same can be said of her ABC recordings.
Her voice was more Etta then Barbra, making songs where she could display the sass in her voice a far better fit. I think she would have done a great on “This Can’t Be Love” or “I Could Write A Book”.
I agree that out of the three Flo was the least versatile. Diana had the ability to make even the most pedestrian song sound special and that’s a rare gift.

My assessment of Florence's voice concurs with what many others have stated. Her voice was indeed so much of an 'in your face' Etta James/Pearl Bailey vein. Also, it was probably a struggle to record her as a background singer because of her powerful voice which, per some live performances, sticks out rather than blends as a background voice should.

Many pro-Florence fans who believe Florence should have been the main lead singer will comment on YouTube performances with responses such as "Wow, you can really hear Florence on this. Go girl!" or "Florence owned this performance. She took it away from Diana." To be able to hear one background voice over another background voice consistently in a performance is NOT a good thing being that the background vocals should blend together. Take "Where Did Our Love Go." Don't you suppose that Florence probably had difficulty being able to blend with Mary thus resulting in her probably be positioned so much further away from the studio microphone resulting in the output recording where we can barely hear her? With the more 'pop' direction to which the Supremes were headed , Florence's powerful voice may have become more of a distraction than complimentary toward the sound Berry was envisioning.

At the time of the Supremes' rise, Berry didn't have the resources in his buddy company to promote and develop every budding star in the Motown stable, and thus, he did indeed tend to focus on just a select few. Florence, along with many others, sadly was one of the victims. But that's business!

[QUOTE=Boogiedown;677582]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TkWeQfdpo4

She hits the notes and that is about it. Her phrasing is elementary. The quality of her voice is amateurish. Her incredible vocal talents are myth and much ado about nothing.

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Originally Posted by RanRan79

I think Mary would've been a good fit for "I Saw Mommy" and "Rockin Around the Christmas Tree". The truth is that I could see alternate versions of "Santa Baby" with each lady doing a lead in order to figure out which version would be the best because Flo, Diana and Mary all had that certain sexy something that could've made a Supremes "Santa Baby" fire.

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or what about each lady doing a verse and then tying things up as a trio?

[QUOTE=Circa 1824;677721]

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Originally Posted by Boogiedown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TkWeQfdpo4

She hits the notes and that is about it. Her phrasing is elementary. The quality of her voice is amateurish. Her incredible vocal talents are myth and much ado about nothing.

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Her vocal needed to be produced properly. Diana didn't just have that it factory on all her recordings, her vocal performance were produced until they got what they wanted. You also get better by doing, if you're always singing background it takes a minute to get the right vocal performance. Something tell me that this was not a finished polished performance and it might have been just to shut Flo up. It's funny how these performances showed up in the later years.

[QUOTE=rod_rick;677850]

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Originally Posted by Circa 1824

Her vocal needed to be produced properly. Diana didn't just have that it factory on all her recordings, her vocal performance were produced until they got what they wanted. You also get better by doing, if you're always singing background it takes a minute to get the right vocal performance. Something tell me that this was not a finished polished performance and it might have been just to shut Flo up. It's funny how these performances showed up in the later years.

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Good point, but using up studio time merely to placate Flo or Mary would have worked out rather expensive. More so if they they never really intended to use those recordings.

[QUOTE=Circa 1824;677721]

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Originally Posted by Boogiedown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TkWeQfdpo4

She hits the notes and that is about it. Her phrasing is elementary. The quality of her voice is amateurish. Her incredible vocal talents are myth and much ado about nothing.

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I tried listening with your comment s in mind. What you are not liking , I think is what I do.
Funny you used the word amateurish....I had already been thinking this is the kind of a performance that gets a standing ovation and steals the show at an amateurtalent show. It's on point, every word perfectly enunciated with every note hit. Its very purposeful.
The performance to me seems real, as from a Broadway show, not spliced together from multiple takes, or in any way enhanced, and all solo, sounding as if on stage alone. What I like the most is the way it starts off rather calm with mostly a piano and as the arrangement builds so does Flo's delivery. She keeps up every step of the way, getting better and better. It's clear she's been holding back. It's actually too brief in this respect, we're just now getting there, and its over.

I also love Flo's voice , her tone. Sometimes it can come down to that.

[QUOTE=Circa 1824;677721]

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Originally Posted by Boogiedown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TkWeQfdpo4

She hits the notes and that is about it. Her phrasing is elementary. The quality of her voice is amateurish. Her incredible vocal talents are myth and much ado about nothing.

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You also have to keep in mind that neither she nor Mary were getting a lot of chances to do lead. Yes, they were singing background vocals but that's much different from singing lead. Diana grew as a vocalist because 1.) she was constantly singing lead which allowed her to practice and grow and 2.) she was getting the attention from producers and arrangers on how to develop vocally. A good example of this is hearing Mary sing lead in the 60s compared to hear doing leads in the 70s. Because she had more chances to tackle leads, vocally she grew in her phrasing, tone, ability to hit and sustain notes, etc. She became a much better singer. I guarantee if Flo was given the chance to do more leads and got the attention on how to develop her voice your assessment of her voice would be much different.

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Originally Posted by jobucats

My assessment of Florence's voice concurs with what many others have stated. Her voice was indeed so much of an 'in your face' Etta James/Pearl Bailey vein. Also, it was probably a struggle to record her as a background singer because of her powerful voice which, per some live performances, sticks out rather than blends as a background voice should.

Many pro-Florence fans who believe Florence should have been the main lead singer will comment on YouTube performances with responses such as "Wow, you can really hear Florence on this. Go girl!" or "Florence owned this performance. She took it away from Diana." To be able to hear one background voice over another background voice consistently in a performance is NOT a good thing being that the background vocals should blend together. Take "Where Did Our Love Go." Don't you suppose that Florence probably had difficulty being able to blend with Mary thus resulting in her probably be positioned so much further away from the studio microphone resulting in the output recording where we can barely hear her? With the more 'pop' direction to which the Supremes were headed , Florence's powerful voice may have become more of a distraction than complimentary toward the sound Berry was envisioning.

At the time of the Supremes' rise, Berry didn't have the resources in his buddy company to promote and develop every budding star in the Motown stable, and thus, he did indeed tend to focus on just a select few. Florence, along with many others, sadly was one of the victims. But that's business!

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Good post. That's why I prefer the Mary/Cindy backing combination as they were much more consistent and they worked to blend when given something to do. And having Mary's voice stand out in the blend made for an effective contrast with Diana and later Jean.

When Mary and Flo were on, they were great, but some of those live TV performances are really thrown off if Flo is singing or mic'd too loud.

Cindy and Mary had a good blend but nothing beats Flo and Mary for me. Flo, Mary and Diana together is absolutely unbeatable for me.

I loved it so much when we got to hear the background voices moved a little forward and go to hear Supremes who's voices we never knew - in the 60's etc.

I think it is worth remembering that the hits started in 1964 - it was a far different time than now and without Diana's sharp edged pop voice, there might not have been an opening for Motown to move to the forefront.

I often find it very hard to imagine that voices that are not distinct and instantly recognizable could have had hits - often I think that is the reason they didn't have hits; and in that I would include Mary and Florence. Scherrie's voice is more recognizable and distinct and even she did not really get much in the way of hits - perhaps IGLMHDTW is the exception and it barely cracked the Pop Top 40.

A lot of people carry on about distinctive voices are needed to get a hit, but there are plenty of groups that had hits without a lead singer that had a distinctive, stand out voice. But they had some good voices in the group. What made the Diana Ross led Supremes a superstar act was because Diana had a distinct voice and presence and that gave them an edge. If let's say Diana's father had said No, she can't join the group and forced her to stay home and go to college and give up singing, and Mary and Flo had found someone else, they might have had a few hits with the right songs, but they would not have achieved superstar status. But they could have had hits with the right material. A vocal group may not need a distinct voice to get a couple of hits, but they do need a unique voice and presence to achieve more than just a few hits.

I think Mary and Flo had distinctive voices. Can you imagine Where Did Our Love Go or Come See About Me being done by other voices? They would not sound as good. Mary and Flo put emotion into their performances even when just singing background. Diana just had the opportunities to go the extra mile.

Anyway back to my main topic...O Holy Night. My favorite version by anyone is Flo's version.

If The Supremes story was as follows. Diana Ross leaves The Supremes for a solo enterprise.Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard continue as The Supremes, yet now as a duet. Florence's and Mary's vocals alone could have sustained the group. I base this on Florence's version of "Oh Holy Night" and Mary's version of "Can't Take My Eyes Off of You". All musical fans have opinions of where they wish the music to lead them!