seeing this kinda wants me to see their actual footage so we can judge it for ourselves
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seeing this kinda wants me to see their actual footage so we can judge it for ourselves
Attachment 19659
[QUOTE=blackguy69;696002]seeing this kinda wants me to see their actual footage so we can judge it for ourselves
I had heard they had gotten some jeers for being too Vegasy. They were cut out of the final print, leaving Jean more furious with Motown and Mary.
Now why would she be mad at Mary if they all agreed in what songs they would perform
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackguy69
of course we don’t know if they all agreed on it, do we? I think that Gene would be angry at Mary for fighting the thought that the group needed to dump their glam especially for certain audiences. I don’t think it was Motown‘s choice to have them eliminated from the film, they would have nothing to gain from that action. And I can imagine that Jean was angry and miss directing her anger because this is around the time that they got dropped in Vegas, and couldn’t get another gig in there. I don’t see the need to blame anyone, they could just learn from the experience and see what they might do so that that kind of thing didn’t happen again. They could’ve contacted the producers of the film and ask why they were eliminated. I don’t think I would point my finger at Mary, or anyone. Jean had the right to do what she did eventually which was leave the group because it wasn’t going in the direction she wanted to go in. I have no reason to blame Mary for that either. If they were a group of equal partnership , a majority vote would remove all rancor. If they weren’t enjoying an equal share of the voting, maybe that’s why they left. The big decline in bookings and losing Las Vegas should have been a major wake up call. I think they were the most talented group, and the one with the best chance of making it.
the story is that Jean and Mary were butting heads from nearly the onset. now keep in mind, this is not to say they hated each other or that they never got along. There had been a very specific way of doing things for the Supremes and Jean Terrell was, in every sense, her own person. Mary was also very committed to the traditional supremes image. now i don't know if this means she was the primary person selecting their stage sets but motown didn't particularly run or dictate the group's image. the girls had pretty much done that.
my opinion is that jean's frustration was that as the hits declined they really weren't doing anything new enough or different enough to rebound. the group's recording reputation was quickly sliding downhill and i would guess she was frustrated that the group was being boxed in and not able to really try something new.
someone one here mentioned a while ago that as things were continuing to decline in 71 and into 72, the idea was "ok maybe we've drifted too far from what made the Sups popular" so they dug out the old TCB era stuff. although i don't know if you could have selected a strategy MORE off than that
No the ladies had no say so in the choice of material they recorded or performed, Motown dictated everything. Times were changing and Motown was keeping the group in the 60s glamour image and Vegas stage shows. Jean had long been objecting to this and also made it known she despised singing the Ross hits, which made up a large part of the show.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackguy69
Jean was frustrated with Mary for not standing up to Motown. Jean came from the outside but Mary felt Motown was her family and trusted them. In Jean's last year all three ladies gave Motown an ultimatum that if things didn't improve within a year they would leave the company. Well, things only deteriorated more. Jean was especially sour about the Jimmy Webb flop as she worked herself sick on it and felt this would be the lp to gain her name recognition which it didn't do. After the Stevie Wonder flop and it was time to make good on the ultimatum, Mary reneged and opted to stay with Motown. Jean and Lynda were willing to give up the name Supremes but Mary had worked too long to just walk away from it. When the ladies got a horrific review in Frisco with the reviewer [[a white guy no less) criticizing them for not sounding black enough, Jean was finished. She had met her future husband and chose a different life.
While I loved all the ladies in the group, I think Jean's leaving finished them off. The public, what little there was left for the group, was confused as to whom was in the group and the major fan magazines stopped covering them. Motown thought that Mary's getting married would allow them to cease The Supremes. Instead, Mary brought Cindy back and hired Scherrie - much to Motown's anger and came out swinging.
i got a bootleg of the Apollo show. it's a shorter concert since they were doing multiple shows a day
TCB
60s medley
Can't take my eyes/quiet nights
stoned love
i guess i'll miss the man
60s medley #2
he ain't heavy [[jean solo)
oh happy day
the whole show is about 40 mins
IGIMTM is a highlight and a little longer than the studio version. they repeat the oooohs section and the final version and Jean ad libs a bit more but not too wild or too off the melody. it's quite nice
now had Jean actually HEARD the finished product?!?! how could she not be horrified by the vocals on Beyond Myself? if she was furious it should have been a Jimmy for selecting that take or not allowing another vocalQuote:
Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan
and never before, except perhaps FG, had an lp sounded LESS like "the supremes" than this one. it really is, with the exception of I Keep It Hid, a Jean Terrell solo album. maybe she was fine with that. given the hit and miss state of the group, maybe jean was thinking she'd do a bit more with the group and then launch a solo career
I think Mary would have left were they able to retain the name. She understood the enormous significance in what having the name Supremes meant. To start again under a new name, at a different label was a colossal risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouMotownMan
i also guess that mary was looking at more longer term things. if it is true that she and jean had been butting heads for years, going to a new label wouldn't have drastically changed that. certainly didn't change much when jean finally went to A&M and did her solo album. she might have weighed the two options - will it be more productive to keep working with jean or more productive to keep trying to get motown to come around?
also if jean had rubbed people the wrong way at motown, what had that done to influence the labels disinterest in the group? maybe a new lead singer with a new attitude was the right answer, at least from Mary's POV
Good point. Mary probably went with her instincts, realising Jean was never going to be the easiest personality to work with. I wonder how much creative freedom the group were given during the recording of the Supremes 75 album and onwards?.Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
I think it's long understood that the PUSH audience at large saw the Supremes as outdated and backward-looking at the time. The piece that began this thread is simply a letter-to-the-editor from one disgruntled fan of the group. Always interesting is the half-century-plus old paradox of post-Diana-Supremes-line-up fans, which is 'they failed because Motown did nothing to help them / they failed because Motown made every decision for them'. Occam's razor: the group failed because they were no longer recognizable or interesting to the public. No more, no less.
true - the group's relevance decreased greatly in 71 and on. but the question i see is who was responsible for maintaining the relevancy? who was in charge of the STRATEGY? it's the management question i'm most intrigued byQuote:
Originally Posted by PeaceNHarmony
in the 60s Berry was intimately involved with this. but the 70s saw him focusing on Diana. And there's been a lot said about how Diana wasn't all that involved in her direction.
the group was assigned producers and given material to record. that's how it always was and that's how it continued in the 70s. there's certainly some involvement here - Lynda was friends with Stevie and so she reached out to him. he then jumped at the chance. but he would have still gone through whatever motown channels and processes to do this
the girls had little involvement, to my understanding, of the development of the albums. That would have fallen to the executive producer
the girls certainly had some reign over their stagewear
their live shows were laid out for them. the set list was created and that's what they performed
so the question is around the support they were receiving from motown. and was it good support. Who made the decision for the Tops duets? Who made the decision for they were going to sing X in a stage show? who picked out that cheapass album design for Dynamite? Who picked Jimmy Webb as the outside producer out of all of the options available?
And both Jean and Lynda found that out when they went out years later as the Former Ladies of the SUpremes and the Supremes. I also feel Mary would have lost control of the group if they changed labels and the name of the group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie9
If you ask me the group started to decline in '68. They got lucky with Love Child. But the decline started even before Jean came into the group.
Without doubt she would have. Being a founding member of the original group gave her a lot of kudos. I can fully understand her reluctance to leave the company when all was considered. For Mary alone i think such a decision would have been a last resort.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod_rick
You pose a lot of legitimate questions that I don't believe we have ultimate answers to! Unfortunately with the passing of time hagiography and 'the fog of war' gets in the way of us knowing for sure how each decision was made. I think only Motown company log books, etc would reveal accurate answers. As the saying goes, "Victory has one hundred fathers; defeat is an orphan"!Quote:
Originally Posted by sup_fan
another question that would be interesting to dig into would be the budget allocations for each group. with the release of an lp, how much marketing budget was allotted to it? what was set for New Ways versus Cream of the Crop vs A Go Go vs Jimmy Webb
i hadn't ever really thought of this until reading Deke's comments regarding the whole MRATV story around I Can't Dance To That Music You're Playing. he wanted to fly out and get another vocal from Martha but the travel costs weren't approved. so he had to make due. we forget about the business-side of things since these are more likely emotional bonds we have with a song and group rather than a business bond
Who was the director for JML's show? I imagine they had to work within the framework of that show and the charts they had. I wonder if there were some songs that were on reserve, depending on amount of time they had to perform the show, to draw upon if they had a long show to do, while others were must performs and others were songs to be cut if only allotted a half hour. In which case, then who made the decision? JML? Their road manager? Their musical director? I recall in Supreme Faith Mary recounting a show they did where at the last minute Jean demanded to sing her solo, and Mary said no as they had already indicated what songs they were to do and that Jean and Lynda, when they had met earlier, had provided no input on what to do. So if this is true, then the group had a say on what songs they would do for a particular show or performance, based on what charts they had worked out and routines ready.
the memory from Mary's book regarding Jean's demand to do her solo number was in regards to a British tv show. they would have most likely had a few set options for tv shows because they would have needed a recorded backing track or charts for a show's band.
as for the shows, Bayou and others have confirmed that the girls had limited to no voice in what was done. Perhaps if someone had a fav song they wanted to include or do, or hated one song, that might have been incorporated. but motown would have had a dept that built out the shows - what songs, arranging royalties for outside tunes, created the musical charts and arrangements. they would have laid out the order of the show, helped write the dialog, etc. This was then given to the girls to rehearse and learn
My guess is this all was a big frustration for Jean. as an adult starting her career at motown, to have her opinions and ideas simply disregarded or ignored would have been a huge frustration. versus Mary who grew up in the company. when mary was 19 and 20 and having to learn a supper club show, Maurice, Gil, Cholly and the rest of Artist Dev would have probably had a better idea of what to do
Does anyone know if JML did any big shows during their grouping. In this, I mean Vegas, bigger supper clubs/show rooms?
MLC did the Hilo Center in HI [[which is very large arena) and Copa
MJL did:
Copa in June
Palmer House in Chicago in June
Convention Hall San Diego, July 1
Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento, July 2
the Grove in LA in July with the Temps July 5 - 15
Coliseum, Seattle July 19
Westbury Music Fair, Long Island July 24 - 30
Painters Mill Playhouse, Owing Mills Maryland July 31 - Aug 6
Shady Grove Music Fair Washington DC Aug 7 - 13
Valley Forge, PA 8/14 - 20
Sheppard Air Force Base 9/17
Maria Isobel Mexico, Oct 72
Memorial Coliseum, Auburn, AL Oct 27
Apollo Theater Dec 72
Elmwood Casino, Toronto, Jan 73
Flamboyan Hotel San Juan, Feb 73
March 9 - April 4 - England tour
The Fairmont San Francisco - April 73
June 73 - Japan tour
Bachelors III Ft Lauderdale July 73
Magic Mountain Aug 73
Wow. I had no idea they were that active in concerts during that time. I sort of lost track
of things when Lynda came into the group. I saw MSS at Bachelor's III in 76. Thank you so much, sup-fan.
I'm 90% per cent certain The Supremes were one of the acts I caught playing at Magic Mountain. The place was new and they were bringing in all these acts to draw people in with these free shows. 100 per cent sure about Sonny and Cher and Delaney And Bonnie, all that same summer. My mom loaded up the station wagon with whoever wanted to join my brother and I, about an hour and a half trip. It was cheap then, a lot of the park still under construction. We went for the rides, my Mom for the entertainment . We would rendezvous and do a check -in at the cooling high aluminum covered seating stands during these shows. No cell phones then to maintain contact.
I also find humorous the writer's statement about 'the one who gets all the attention'. Some fans had their panties in a twist about Diana's success from Day 1!
I find it interesting that in 1971-72 that some are saying the the public found the Supremes outdated, that the glamour wardrobe was out of touch [[yet others including Diana Ross could still wear glamourous wardrobes). Yet, when in 1971 they released Touch as a single which was a real soul love ballad and a departure from what was expected from them, they were criticized for releasing something that was not expected as the Supremes sound. It seems we want to have it both ways. Jean really didn't connect with the general public, even less so than Mary and Cindy. Motown never released a follow up to Stoned Love from the second LP, went with Nathan Jones and that was another departure in sound and it only hit the top 20. Motown was focused on films. It seemed that after the initial times on tv, in 1971 they were touring and not visible as much with Nathan Jones and Touch getting practically no tv exposure. Then Cindy left and was replaced by Lynda during this. Despite the fact that some fans love this grouping, the general public was only seeing new faces wearing the same glamour gowns and a different sound than they were used to. All of these factors-change in sound, change in personnel twice in 2 years and a look that was associated with the past and a company that really moved them from priority #1 to priority to using the Supremes name only to milk what $ they could get from that, they weren't interested in keeping them the flagship of the company. Just like the internal personnel was replaced, so was their status at the company.
When all is said and done it comes down to strength of material. Groups such as The Three Degrees and “Love Unlimited kept a pretty traditional presentation. It was the ultra commerciality of the material they were being given that ensured their chart success.
I remember seeing the JML lineup in 1972 in Manchester, UK. The show was really poorly attended, probably only 30% full. This wasn’t helped with The Temptations and Junior Walker performing at a venue on the opposite side of road on the same night. Weren’t both The Supremes and The Temptations managed by Shelly Berger at the time, if so, what were they thinking by putting two of the biggest Motown acts at the time appearing in the same City?
Back to the Supremes show, I remember there being a certain coldness between Mary and Jean on stage and the trio just weren’t connecting with the audience, they received mediocre applause and quite a poor critique in the Manchester Evening News the following day whereas, in contrast, the Temps and Walker show got rave reviews. It felt to me this was the beginning of the end for the group although the 1975 UK concert tour with the MCS line up was received with some success.
interesting story! thanks so much for sharingQuote:
Originally Posted by masterblaster
was the show similar to the Live In Japan cd? remember any other tunes or the dresses? did Lynda do her lead on You're Nobody?
the UK tour was in March through early April. then also in April the girls played San Fran Fairmont and, as Bayou mentioned, got terrible reviews there too.
i feel for jean in that she's up on stage as the lead and the group is getting trashed by reviewers and tepid, lackluster response from the audience. yet she had little to no control over what they sang. but another problem is the lack of chemistry between the girls. there was certainly plenty of angst and tension during the 60s line ups. but, as far as we know, they seemed to not carry it on stage as obviously. even if they were fighting and yelling in the dressing room, seems like DMFC were able to keep up the façade on stage.
yeah this has been one of the key problems during the 72 and 73 period. they didn't have an official designer so their look was sort of all over the place. the handful of new gowns during the MJL period are really a mix - the floral ones from Sonny and Cher, the deep purple ones from Flip Wilson Lean On Me, the floral ones from LA Grove and the chiffon ones from Kate Smith. plus they continued to wear lots of the DRATS era gowns and some of the MJC ones. so their style was poorly definedQuote:
Originally Posted by jim aka jtigre99
then their shows were filled back up with all the DRATS stuff like TCB, Somewhere and You're Nobody.
and their recorded output was all over the place too. you went from the FJ set to JW to SW.
so the problem seems to "Who were the Supremes in 72/73? what were they trying to be? what statements were they making?"