By David Meikle (81.103.135.80) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 05:17 pm:

I was looking through Sharon Davis's excellent book, "Motown, the history" the other day when i was struck by the amount of early material on Tamla and Motown that I had never heard.

For example Nick & the Jaguars,The Swinging Tigers,, The Gospel Stars, Mickey Woods, Rev Columbus Mann, Bob Kayli(!), The Downbeats, Mickey McCullers, Saundra Mallett & the Vandellas, Eugene Remus, Popcorn & the Mohawks, The Gospel Harmoniers, The Twistin Kings, The All Stars, Amos Millburn.

Can anyone give us their impressions of the songs these people got released on Motown labels?

I don't suppose there is a legit way to buy their material?

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 05:37 pm:

David:
The Amos Milburn Motown recordings were available on CD for a brief spell in 1996. There were about 20 tunes, mostly remakes of songs he originally cut for Aladdin. Andre Williams wrote one tune ("Mama's Boy") and produced a couple for Amos. Stevie Wonder played harmonica on Amos' remake of his own hit "Chicken Shack Boogie."

You might find the CD via Amazon. In the meantime, here's some more info regarding Amos:
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=CASS805121827&sql=A2fx7gjwro6in

As for the Gospel acts, Motown did have a Gospel label - its name escapes me right now - but that was short lived.

The Downbeats recorded "Darling Baby" for VIP Records.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Ritchie (62.254.0.32) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 05:41 pm:

The Gospel label was named Divinity, and existed only from 1962-3.

By Scratcher (65.238.127.64) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:09 pm:

The early Motown stuff was hit and miss, mostly miss. Most disk jockeys didn't like the recordings. They were blues and doo wop based. They are unfamilair to most because Berry never compiled them on his 16 Hits albums or any other such compilations because they simply were not up to par to the stuff he did from 1963 on. They're good collector's items but not so good for listening.

Berry issued a lot of recordings, more than most people know, which is a point many on this forum have been trying to make for months when they speak of early Motown (1959-1962). This is why some like I say he stumble upon his hit sound, achieved it by trial and error and not by design.

People will be surprised at the astounding amount of country reccords issued by various Motown labels. A better book to see all the recordings issued is The Motown Story by Don Waller.

By P.J. (209.114.157.117) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:13 pm:

'X-Mas Twist' by the Twisting Kings is available in an unedited stereo version on ' A Motown Christmas: Vol 2'.
We definitely need to petition Motown U.K. or U.S. for some compilations having the early obscure singles. They might do some thematically such as gospel, instrumental, vocals etc.

By David Meikle (81.103.135.80) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:32 pm:

Scratcher

While I concede to not having heard the 45's listed above, your view that pre '63 is poor is surely over the top.

Marv Johnson "Come to me" 1959, Chico Leverette "Solid sender" 1959, Barrett Strong "Money" 1959, Miracles "Way over there" 1960, Miracles "Shop around" 1960, Marvelettes "Please mr postman" 1961, Marvelettes, Marvin Gaye, Eddie Holland "Jamie", several Mary Wells tracks----all pre'63.

I am interested to know if you have heard the tracks by the artists I listed in the first post.

I have the Don Waller book thanks.

By Scratcher (65.238.127.64) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:38 pm:

David, I said there were some gems among the misses but I guess you missed that part. I have or had many of those records. The jocks use to give them away. I know of what I speak and was not over the top. Why do you think Berry never included a Satintones' track on a CD, or one by some of the many other artists that never did anything. I guess you will have to listen to them to know what I'm talking about. This was way before quality control, creative engineering, HDH and the Funk Brothers with Earl Van Dyke.

Any artist or track that immediatly comes to your head was one of the hits or good records, I can name a laundry list of misses and artists you never heard of.

By Scratcher (65.238.127.64) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:47 pm:

I have a copy of "Small Sad Sam" by Bob Kayli a.k.a. Robert Gordy in my collection, I got it at a flea market way back in the sixties. The Supremes are singing in the background. I have the Downbeats' recording prior to Saundra Maullet joining them entitle "Your Baby's Back," again nothing special, very ordinary.

I have the Amos Milburn sides on a CD--those are good blues. I heard the Swinging Tigers and Popcorn & the Mohawks, can't say much about either. I never heard the gospel sides. As I previously posted these recordings are good for collecting. I wish I would have kept all the early ones I had, i.e. Herman Griffin, Henry Lumpkin, etc cause they're worth something now; they were not when I had them.

The point I'm trying to make and why Motown didn't include these songs on later compilations is that it's not the Motown sound that the public came to love. It's not any sound really, Motown was all over the place. You really didn't know what you were going to hear when you place the 45 on the turntable if you hadn't heard it before. I purchased a lot of Motown/Country on labels like Miracles and Melody at flea markets and at discount stores thinking it was soul music.

By David Meikle (81.103.135.80) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:52 pm:

Hi Scratcher ; 0638 post.

I missed that part because you never said it!

Please give me your laundry list of artists I never heard of.

thanks
David

By Scratcher (65.238.127.64) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:56 pm:

By Scratcher (65.238.127.64) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 06:09 pm:


The early Motown stuff was hit and miss, mostly miss.

I said it in so many words.

If you have Don Waller's book you already have a list of the artists and the singles they recorded on the various Motown labels.

I know you don't respect my opinons, for some strange reason, but do you have to be so obvious. I lived this music since I was a preteen and I know what I like and what I don't like. I also know that the head honchos at Motown was ashamed of most of the earlier stuff and kept it buried...most of it is still buried, which is why you have never heard it.

By David Meikle (81.103.135.80) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 07:02 pm:

Hi Scratcher 0647 post

Ordinary tracks are well worth hearing (to say the least).

More on the Popcorn tracks please. They grace the Motown Museum wall.

I understand why Motown never released much of the old stuff. I am a bean counter by profession.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.32) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 07:06 pm:

There's definitely a bluesier feel to much of the better early material, which is possibly why it may not find a market today with even diehard Motown fans who prefer the slicker sounds that came out later. There is also a deal of faintly embarrassing novelty items, but they were probably no worse than anyone else's at the time of the Purple People Eater and Alley Oop. Bob Kayli's are probably best heard once and then annexed to a sound-proof booth somewhere.

Yesterday, I was listening to a bunch of tracks including ten or so by Sammy Ward (solo and duetting with Sherrie Taylor), and Herman Griffin. There's a raw edge to them that was obviously smoothed off to gain commercial acceptance. It's interesting that many of the early artists were dropped in favour of less earthy performers - there's a lightyear between Gino Parks and the oohing-cooing Supremes.

I'm still working my way through a bunch of other early tracks I acquired recently. It's a wonderful journey of discovery - some real bummers on the way, but many lost treasures too. My current favourite - Frances Burnett's I Miss You So - a pre-Tamla BG production, rather like a female Jackie Wilson record. Maybe these records bombed at the time, maybe the jocks weren't impressed - but I can tell you, in 2003, I definitely am.

By David Meikle (81.103.135.80) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 07:07 pm:

Scratcher

You are completely wrong in saying I don't respect your opinions. You respond to Graham, that's enough for me.

Why don't you come to Detroit in July and I'll tell you so.

You told me I missed something, I still wait to hear what it was. That's all. You are pulling me, not the other way.

with respect
David

By David Meikle (81.103.135.80) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 07:10 pm:

Ritchie

The early T/M recordings are vital to the history of this great city.

Thanks
David

By Scratcher (65.238.127.64) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 07:15 pm:

David, it wasn't because the stuff didn't sell that it wasn't included (not totally) it was the sound. Some of the old stuff that sounded good was included on their later compilation albums, like "Greetings This Is Uncle Sam," "Money," "Jamie" and a few others but most of that stuff has never graced an LP, eight track, cassette or CD.

You have to remember that once that got rolling Motown was promoting The Sound of Young America not blues singers like Sammy Ward, Hattie Littles (both who records are good) or R&B singers like Gino Parks, Andre Williams and the like.

The Satintones had about nine single releases on Motown and most people don't know who the Satintones are. Who here can hum a song by Debbie Dean, the Creations, LaBrenda Ben, Connie Van Dyke...?

Disk Jockeys actually liked Anna Records better during this period. They didn't put out as many records and their sound was more consistent.

By David Meikle (81.103.135.80) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 07:24 pm:

Thnaks Scratcher

David

By RODS (195.93.34.9) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 09:49 pm:

Scratcher, you hit the nail on the head there. I've got early stuff by those four acts you mention and I cant even remember what they sound like!! However it's then nice to play them cos I always think "Yeah, that's why I got them". There are exceptions. I really love that Equadors on Miracle and wonder if I could get away with it on Northern Scene, esp. now they play earlier sounding stuff.
ROD

By Uptight (24.55.6.144) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 11:53 pm:

RODS: Funny, I have a few early 45s, too, and can't remember the melodies or lyrics. Playing them once in a while reminds you why you rarely play them. Some are not the most memorable recordings. (Of course, there are some great gems, too.)

But in a strange way, I feel lucky just having them. I guess it's their rarity. I'm glad I can easily peek into what formed into "The Sound of Young America" before the "Sound" developed.