By STUBASS (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 08:47 am:

THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE IN ROUNDABOUT WAYS!!!...JULIAN AND CORNBREAD REALLY TOUCHED ON IT ON THE "FIRST SOUL SONG" AND "BIRTH OF SOUL" THREADS!!!...PERHAPS THIS TOPIC CAN BE NARROWED DOWN EVEN MORE!!!...
WHEN DID R&B TURN INTO SOUL...AND WHICH ARTISTS WERE R&B...WHICH WERE SOUL...AND WHICH WERE BOTH!!!...

THE PRIMARY DIFFERENCE THAT I SEE IS THE WAY THE MUSIC WAS PRODUCED...AND THE INFLUENCES ON EACH ONE!!!...IN R&B...I HEAR BLUES...COUNTRY (MANY BLACK ARTISTS LISTENED TO A LOT OF COUNTRY RADIO IN THE EARLY DAYS GROWING UP...AS THAT WAS ALL THAT WAS AVAILABLE TO THEM...AND MANY COUNTRY ARTISTS LISTENED TO BLUES...THUS INCORPORATING BLUES INTO COUNTRY)!!!...SOUL MUSIC PRETTY MUCH ELIMINATED THAT COUNTRY SOUND...BUT DID RELY MORE HEAVILY ON BLUES...DOO WOP... AND OTHER EARLIER FORMS OF MUSIC!!!...
MY CONTINUING DISCUSSIONS ON OTIS REDDING VERSUS RAY CHARLES AS THE GREATEST SOUL SINGER...IS BASED ON THE FACT THAT I CONSIDER RAY MORE R&B...AND OTIS SOUL!!!...YOU CAN DEFINITLY HEAR THE COUNTRY INFLUENCE IN RAYS MUSIC...BUT OTIS"S EARLY INFLUENCE APPEARS TO BE MORE BLUES ORIENTED!!!...
WHO ARE THE SOUL SINGERS...WHO ARE THE R&B SINGERS...AND WHICH...LIKE JACKIE WILSON I BELIEVE WOULD BE A GOOD EXAMPLE...DID BOTH...CROSSED OVER AND COVERED BOTH GENRES DURING THEIR CAREER???...STUBASS

By medusa (68.248.13.99) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 08:55 am:

Well Stu,
I have 2 go 2 work now, but I will B Back later this pm.

By RD (65.150.228.137) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 09:05 am:

The original definers were R&B derived from Swing and '40s band music and soul music from gospel.

By STUBASS (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 09:21 am:

I'M NOT QUITE SEEING THOSE LINKS RD!!!...PERHAPS YOU COULD EXPLAIN OR GIVE SOME EXAMPLES!!!...ALTHOUGH IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SWING PLAYED A ROLE IN R&B...BUT MORE THAN BLUES...COUNTRY...AND GOSPEL???...WHILE THERE IS A GOSPEL ELEMENT IN SOUL...I WOULD TEND TO THINK THAT IT CARRIED OVER FROM THE R&B INFLUENCE WHICH INCLUDED GOSPEL...RATHER THAN THE DIRECT GOSPEL LINK!!!...I NEVER SAID THAT THIS WOULD BE AN *EASY* TOPIC!!!...STUBASS

By PlatinumPal (151.197.183.72) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 09:36 am:

StuBass: I found your delineations between the two quite masterful based on my personal experience growing up with these forms of music. Using your descriptions, I LOVE R&B, but still prefer Soul.

I would venture to say that virtually all of the classic Motown artists would more comfortably fit into the Soul category, IMHO.

By Tony Russi (68.210.10.156) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 09:47 am:

The music we love was referred to as R&B until the mid 60's when the popular term became Soul.Soul included the "harder edge" R & B of say, B B King, Lowell Fulsom,Etta James ect., the Funk of James Brown, and the silky soul of Motown, Philly ect.As far as the trade magazines it was just a change in terms.

By Soul Sister (65.43.148.15) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:31 am:

RD;
You are so right! Big Swinging Bands: The perfect example of that would be Lionel Hampton's Band, it was the earliest Rock & Roll form, it would be the jumpinist, wild, bought the house down band, Lionel would work it till every pereson in the audience was up on their feet jumpin'and dancing. Another was Louis Jordan and his Tymphany Five, these were early starters of both R & R and R & B music as we know it.

On the other thread people have all kinds of different catagories listed as soul, no they weren't they were rock, country. doo wop, R & B, and pop!

Soul Singers most were the gritty southern soul type such as stax artists like Sam & Dave and Otis Redding. The Al Green's, James Carr, Joe Simon, Wilson Pickett. More Country W.-Soul combinations might be Ray Charles and Percy Sledge.

The US Northern City soul sound would be Jackie Wilson, Derek Martin, Walter Jackson, Jerry Butler, Curtis Mayfield, Sam Cook (even though his roots were in southern gospel, his voicing style was more like a north city soul man).

Just some examples from my era when the term came into use. See my post on the "First Soul Song You Ever Heard" for clarification on the different catagories & Groups, etc... Now I don't claim to be no expert just stating the way it was for classic soul and the catagorizing back then. If it sheds a little light to the subject GOOD.
Sincerely,
S.S.

By Soul Sister (65.43.148.15) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:34 am:

B.B King, Bobby "Blue" Bland, Little Milton, etc...were considered in the BLUES catagory.
S.S.

By Don (68.75.48.67) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:39 am:

Hello. I think Tony said it best. I can't deny that Stax/Volt, Atlantic was kickin' butt and taking names when it comes to the word Soul being used in this term. I mean even Berry Gordy's Soul Label was shifting more and more towards this catagory. In my opinion Gordy's Soul Label was on top of the changing of the times, than Motown, Tamla, and Gordy ( with the exception of The Tempts doing soul and funk too ). I almost left out The Godfather of Soul- Mr. James Brown. That's all.

By Soul Sister (65.43.148.15) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:01 am:

James Brown went from R&B to Soul to Funk, his "personal" eveloution.
S.S.

By Soul Sister (65.43.148.15) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:06 am:

Before JB named himself The Godfather after the movie of the same name came out, he was Mr. Dynamite, Soul Brother number 1, and The Hardest Working Man In Show Business"( the last title being copped from Sammy Davis, Jr.'s billing. There were other titles too that he crowned himself with but not as broadly used as the above ones.
S.S.

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:20 am:

Stubass:
I agree with RD & Soul Sister.

The term R&B - rhythm & blues - was created to describe the music that came from the "jump-blues" and swing music of the post-war.

Record labels such as Exclusive, Excelsior, Swing Time/Down Beat, Apollo & even Atlantic specialized in this early form of R&B with artists ranging from Lowell Fulsom to Johnny Otis, Jimmy Witherspoon to Hadda Brooks.

Soul is used to described the harder-edged, Gospel-driven music that started with artists such as Ray Charles & Sam Cooke and continued into the 1960s with the influences coming from the South and a few Northern cities.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:23 am:

GOTTA GO INTO A MEETING KEV...SOUL SISTER...AND RD...BUT I SHALL RETURN AND RESPOND!!!...STUBASS

By Galactus (207.144.253.114) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:26 am:

It's interesting that Stax lead the soul revolution in r&b in many ways......but on the other hand, you can hear plenty of country influences in some of that Memphis soul (certainly in a lot of Redding's work, as well as Booker T. and the MGs).......and two of the 70s biggest soul men...Al Green and Bobby Womack.....were very influenced by country music at times. And of course, later on Lionel Ritchie began to input some country into The Commodores output. So I don't know that ALL of soul music ever completely lost those country roots.

I think there are some artists who are definite r&b, soul or funk. But in most instances, the lines are blurred and there's plenty of overlap.

In a very simplistic way.....you could say r&b represents the 50s; soul represents the 60s; and funk represents the 70s. It's all about evolution in music........but it's never quite that cut and dry.

By RD (65.147.251.158) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:30 am:

Soul Sister you get my drift. I was brief but I thought I stated my position clearly. You'll find that some lump all black vocal groups from the '50s as doo wop when many were actually R&B based like Hank Ballad & the Midnighters; novelty, like the Coasters; or modern harmony like the Moonglows and Four Tops. Soul music came from gospel music and it didn't matter where the group was located, north, south, east or west. New Birth, Aretha Franklin, The Womack Brothers, The Radiants, Soul Brothers Six, etc. all recorded above the Mason-Dixon Line but had deep gospel roots.

The O'Jays, however, were a mixture as were many groups of more than one influence. In the case of the O'Jays it was gospel and doo wop. A lot of what is classified as soul from the sixties was as much pop as it was soul. Particularly many of the Motown recordings. Early Motown recordings (from 1959 to 1962), however, were mainly R&B and doo wop.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:37 am:

I'M BACK!!!...SPEAKING OF THE COUNTRY LINK TO R&B...I FOUND IT QUITE INTERESTING READING THAT "FUNK BROTHER" EDDIE WILLIS...GROWING UP IN MISSISIPPI...CITES COUNTRY GUITARIST CHET ATKINS AS ONE OF THE BIGGEST INFLUENCES ON HIS PLAYING...BASED ON LISTENING TO WHITE MUSIC STATIONS GROWING UP!!!...THAT MAY BE THE CASE FOR MANY OTHER R&B ARTISTS AS WELL!!!...STUBASS

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:59 am:

THE THING ON THE SWING/R&B CONNECTION IS JUST THAT...I THINK SWING HAD A GREATER INFLUENCE ON JAZZ AND BE BOP THAN R&B!!!...ONE THING...SWING WAS INSTRUMENT ORIENTED...NOT VOCALLY...IN THAT SWING SINGERS WERE PART OF THE BAND...NOT OUT FRONT PER SE!!!...STUBASS

By Soulboy (213.105.224.4) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 12:26 pm:

I never really understood what the term R&B meant allthough i have used it the term loosely along with others on the forum,i always assumed it meant race music in the 50s, soul in 60s,funk in the 70s,in the 90s that term became very fashionable again to use when associated with afro-american artists.
I understand in the early days of rock and roll even people like Bill Hailey and Elvis were classified as R&B.from this you could easily say that R&B in almost always associated with dance music whether the tempo is fast or slow.
I don't feel the need to categorize an artist into a particular genre anymore. To me if it sounds good i buy it.

By Don (68.75.189.21) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 04:22 pm:

I still say Tony said it best.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 04:32 pm:

SOUL MUSIC EVOLVED FROM THE TERM "SOUL BROTHER" WHICH BECAME A COMMON MONIKER IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY DURING THE EARLY TO MID 60'S!!!...THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF SOUL GREW AND BECAME POPULARIZED OUT OF THIS CULTURAL PHENOMENON!!!...

By RD (65.150.229.110) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 05:28 pm:

Don and Tony, James Brown and others were calling themselves soul singers way before the midsixties. Check out the live at the Apollo album that came out in 1962 where Brown is introduced as Soul Brother Number One. Lowell Fulsom was a blues artists; he wasn't soul or R&B.

Stu:

Country music does play a role in some soul music, particularly southern soul but it's influence is nowhere near that of gospel.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 05:36 pm:

ABSOLUTLY TRUE RD!!!...GOSPEL HAD A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT...WHILE COUNTRY WAS MORE COINCIDENTAL!!!...STUBASS

By Randy Russi (169.139.180.100) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 07:02 pm:

I remember hearing this way back in the 60s--
"Soul is the feelin'; Blues is the music".
Don't remember who said it, but remember
also hearing a lot of artists preferred
the term "R&B singer" to being called
"Soul singer"--don't know where that was
written or where it came from. Could've
been an article in one of the trades. I
know this for sure, I never liked the
term "crossover", but that's what everyone
would've wanted, I guess.

By Diego (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:32 pm:

Stu--I can only assume your tongue is firmly in cheek about this soul brother/soul music link. in any case it's pretty funny.

Soul Sister--my favorite country/soul singer is Arthur Alexander("Anna," "You Better Move On",)his stuff is so haunting.

Galactus--i agree the lines are blurred and the overlap delicious--I mean Little Milton is definitely a "bluesman" but his "Baby, I Love You" is just a mellow jam that transcends labeling, just like Little Richard's "Send Me Some Loving."

By STUBASS (198.81.26.170) on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 10:53 pm:

HALF TONGUE IN CHEEK...HALF...MANY A TRUTH IS SAID IN JEST...DIEGO!!!...BUT THE EMERGENCE OF A BLACK PRIDE MOVEMENT AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME...DID ADVANCE THE CONCEPT MORE WIDELY OF THE WORD "SOUL"...AND IT'S SIGNIFICANCE SPREAD TO THE LARGER COMMUNITY TO RECOGNIZE THIS PHENOMENON!!!...IN OTHER WORDS...THE WORD "SOUL BECAME FASHIONABLE ON MADISON AVENUE...AND ACTUALLY PROMULGATED A LOT OF SIGNIFICANT MEANINGS DURING THAT PART IN OUR HISTORY!!!...JUST MY TAKE!!!...STU

By Soul Sister (65.43.148.15) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 12:46 am:

Diego;
Thanks. I was talking with Eli today about Arthur Alexander, sounds interesting.
S.S.

By Diego (152.163.252.68) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 01:04 am:

Stu--no doubt about the country/soul cross fertilization Eddie Willis speaks of. If you grew up listening to Carl Smith, Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, Hank Locklin("Please Help Me I'm Falling")it stays with you. I even have those Marty Robbins ballads like "Big Iron," and "El Paso" rattling around in my subconscious. Cheers.

By Bob Olhsson (12.85.128.151) on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 08:05 pm:

It's important to understand that both R&B and Country were originally intended for an adult rural-rooted audience. R&B was (and still is) wildly popular in the UK and UK rock artists turned a lot of the American rock press and audience on to Atlantic and Stax.