By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 02:05 am:

GREETINGS!!!...HOPEFULLY...THIS WILL BE THE TYPE OF DISCUSSION THAT *SHOULD* BE A SIGNIFICANT WAY TO DISCUSS TOPICS RELATING TO MUSIC *AND* SOCIETY'S EFFECT ON IT AND VICE VERSA!!!...I JUST HAPPENED ON AN ADRESS AND Q&A WITH A REPUTEDLY DISTINGUISHED WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST...WHO'S NAME I CAN'T REMEMBER!!!...SLAVERY AND REPERATIONS WAS THE MAIN TOPIC OF DISCUSSION...BUT HE WAS ASKED ABOUT THE EFFECT TODAY OF THE JIM CROW LAWS OF THE EARLY TO MID 20TH CENTURY...AND ABOUT WHY THERE AREN'T MORE AFRICAN AMERICANS AS CEO'S OF FORTUNE 500 COMPANIES!!!...IN HIS ANSWER...HE BROUGHT UP BERRY GORDY...AND BRIEFLY TOLD THE STORY OF BERRY'S BORROWING THE MONEY TO CREATE AND BUILD MOTOWN INTO SUCH A MAJOR CORPORATION...AND ALL THE PEOPLE THAT GOT WEALTHY BECAUSE OF IT!!!...HE THEN TIED IT INTO JIM CROW...BASICALLY SAYING THAT THE MOTOWN MUSIC BROUGHT TOGETHER BLACKS AND WHITES...WHO BOTH LIKED THE MUSIC...WHILE GIVING BOTH GROUPS...A COMMON CULTURAL BOND THAT MADE IT EASIER TO INTERRELATE IN ORDER TO CHANGE THE OVERALL CULTURE FROM A MINDSET THAT MANDATED SEPERATE BOX OFFICES AND ENTRANCES FOR BLACKS AND WHITES IN LOUISIANA AT CIRCUSES...OR THAT HOSPITALS IN LOUISIANA HAD TO HAVE SEPERATE STAFFS FOR BLIND PATIENTS WHO WERE BLACK OR WHITE!!!...DID BERRY GORDY'S MUSIC FACILITATE THE IMPITUS FOR THE CHANGES THAT WERE FOUGHT FOR AND WON!!!...INTELLIGENT TAKES???...

By Tony Russi (68.210.9.227) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 12:31 pm:

As a kid growing up in the South, living in Florida and spending summers in'62 & '63 in Montgomery, Al.I can tell you that the Motown artists and all the Black Rock'n Rollers had an ENORMOUS POSITIVE effect on the attitudes of the majority of young white people in the South.In my case the positive effect carried over to my parents who were both Southern born & raised.I remember an incident in about 64 or 65 when my Dads boss came over for dinner and was shocked to see pictures of James Brown And Smokey Robinson and the Miracles on my bedroom wall.."You let your kids idolize colored people?" and my Dad said "well, I'd rather them listen to that then those long hair freaks".My Dad did not work at that company very long.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 04:03 pm:

HEY TONY!!!...I DON'T KNOW YOUR AGE...BUT AS A KID...DID YOU ATTEND DE JURE SEGREGATED SCHOOLS...AND DID YOU WITNESS ANY "JIM CROW"(LEGALLY ENFORCED) FIRSTHAND???...IF SO...AS A WHITE KID...HOW DID THAT MAKE YOU FEEL???...STU

By janebse (68.63.5.177) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 11:29 pm:

White kids growing up in the South, attending segregated schools who saw Jim Crow in action loved Motown music. Today you hear them talk of the Temptations and the Motown songs, and they merely say, "That was my music." Great music transcends so much. And I speak as someone living in the deepest South then and now.

In his book, Otis remarks on their first trip South and being discouraged but said on their second trip South things had changed, and he likes to think their music had something to do with it.

Stubass, You mention living in Detroit in the '60's. Have you always lived in the North? Or, have you ever lived for a long period of time in the Deep South?

I am not sure exactly what question you are seeking answers to. I know the question you are asking, but I think what you want an answer to is far deeper than a mere "Yes" or "No" answer.
Are you wondering if a white kid who went to a segregated school, saw Jim Crow legally enforced first hand feel guilty about liking Motown music?

By janebse (68.63.5.177) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 11:35 pm:

"felt guilty" is the way it should have read.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 11:41 pm:

HI JANEBSE!!!...THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSE...IN THAT PERHAPS MY QUESTION TO TONY WASN'T REALLY CLEAR!!!...I LIVED IN DETROIT ALL MY LIFE UNTIL MY EARLY 30'S!!!...MOST OF THE TRAVELLING I DID WAS EAST AND WEST...NOT SOUTH...SO I SOMETIMES GET FASCINATED AS TO WHAT LIFE WAS REALLY LIKE DOWN THERE DURING THOSE HISTORIC TIMES...OTHER THEN WHAT HAS BEEN DEPICTED IN MOVIES!!!...I HAVE A BUDDY FROM ATLANTA...HAPPENS TO BE WHITE...AND HE'S OFTEN ASKED ME ABOUT WHAT DETROIT WAS LIKE...AND ABOUT THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA...AND HOW PEOPLE LIVE TOGETHER TODAY IN A CITY LIKE DETROIT...AND HE COMES FROM AN EARLIER GENERATION THAN ME!!!...I GUESS I WAS MORE ASKING TONY...WHILE KIDS COULD ENJOY SOME OF THE SAME CULTURAL PHENOMONON IN THE SOUTH...HOW DID HE AS A WHITE PERSON FEEL...WHEN AFTER SHARING A SOCIAL OR MUSICAL EXPERIENCE WITH A BLACK KID...WHAT WAS THE EFFECT ON HIM (GUILT...ANGER...FRUSTRATION...ALL THE ABOVE) KNOWING THAT THE KID HE JUST WAS BEING FRIENDS WITH...WAS FORCED BY THE STATE GOVERNMENT...TO HAVE TO GO HIS SEPERATE WAY ONCE THE MUSIC STOPPED...AND ANY HUMAN INTERACTION BEYOND THAT WAS PRETTY MUCH PROHIBITED!!!...DOES THAT MAKE ANY MORE SENSE???...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:08 am:

Stubass - When you lived in the Outer Driver area, there were Blacks on that street and in the area. Those that could afford it. However, the further north we went, the more trees the Whites cut down to go further north.. Can you remember when Southfield, MI had lots of trees on the north side of 8 Mile and very little development?

As for your initial question, I would say "No. Berry Gordy did not end Jim Crow." Think of all the great Black artist who were before Motown, who had greater talent than those artist Motown. Whites loved the Duke, Sara, Ella, Billie, etc. Their music transcended. If music was the key to end Jim Crow, it would have brought the two groups together long before Motown. Even the doo wop music transcended.

What did have something to do with Jim Crow was dying for what you believed in, standing up to be free, stand up to the govenment to send our babies to school, to have a job other than cleaning someone elses homes, to live where you want to live, enduring the water hoses and the dogs, and the rocks, and the ropes, and the murders, and the unjust laws. Music did not bring us together. Seeing our children being bombed and our fathers being taken off and placed on railroad tracks, walking and praying "fervantly" to endure the harsh treatment is what helped in segregation. Your dear friend Rosa Parks was not singing a Motown song when she sat on that bus and refused to get up. Finally, Otis Williams wants to take credit for everything. I wonder if he even votes.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:24 am:

WOW SIS...DEEP!!!...FIRST OF ALL...YOU ARE RIGHT...AS BLACKS MOVED NORTH...WHITES MOVED FURTHER NORTH!!!...THIS WAS THE DEFACTO TYPE OF SEGREGATION COMMON IN THE NORTH!!!...I GUESS THAT I GOT CAUGHT UP IN THE TWEENER GENERATION...AS THAT GEOGRAPHICAL CHANGE WAS TAKING ROOT...BUT MY PARENTS STAYED IN NORTHWEST DETROIT LONGER THAN MANY WHITE FAMILIES...SO OF COURSE...I COULD HANG WITH BLACK FRIENDS...AND WHILE THERE WERE CERTAINLY SOCIAL TABOOS...AND AS KIDS GET OLDER...AND THINGS LIKE DATING ENTER INTO THE PICTURE...THINGS COULD GET REALLY TURNED UPSIDE DOWN...ESPECIALLY BACK THEN...WHILE SOMEWHAT LESS TODAY BASED ON MY OBSERVATIONS...AT LEAST IN MOST OF CALIFORNIA!!!...IT WAS NOT UNCOMMON FOR ME AND A BLACK FRIEND TO HANG OUT...GO DOWNTOWN TOGETHER...PLAY BALL...AND BULLSHIT AFTER THE SUN WENT DOWN!!!...THIS WAS NOT REALLY POSSIBLE IN THE SOUTH IN THOSE DAYS TO MY UNDERSTANDING...AND IT'S IMPACT ON THOSE KIDS IS INTERESTING TO ME!!!...ALSO...THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD INVOLVES A BIT OF HYPERBOLE...SINCE ANYONE KNOWS OF THE STRUGGLES YOU SPEAK...AND THE FACT THAT THE PROBLEMS WERE MUCH DEEPER THAN JUST MUSIC COULD PENETRATE!!!...BUT THE SPEAKER I REFERRED TO AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD...DID IMPLY...THAT MUSIC...BERRY GORDY IN PARTICULAR...WAS ON THE SCENE AND DID PLAY SOME ROLE IN THE CHANGING OF THAT PARTICULAR SOCIAL PATTERN!!!...MANY TRUTHS IN YOUR POST!!!...STU

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:45 am:

No doubt that writer has been blinded by his own wishes. Things like this will influence our youth as they began to believe fiction. Our children need to know what their parents, and grandparents, had to endure for them to be able to wear the NBA shirt. To be able to go to a college of their choice if they've earned the right to do so. To be able to win an "Emmy" or "Grammy." If Berry could have given Smokie and David a Grammy for "My Girl" he would have done so.

By Tony Russi (68.210.9.227) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 08:17 am:

Stubass, I'm 51 now.Before I got into music at age 10, the only Black people I remember seeing were an occasional domestic worker, sanitation worker ect.I did start asking alot of questions with no clear answers...I remember hearing segregationists saying things about "if you let your kids listen to that music, pretty soon they'll be in your schools & neighborhoods" and I thought so what and evidently alot of others felt the same way as me & my parents.I was 14 when our schools were integrated and my Dad told us that morning to go up to those kids & be nice and welcome them because they would be scared...I'm still friends with a few of the people from 9th grade on.

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 09:23 am:

THANKS FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVE TONY!!!...AND YOU ARE INDEED FORTUNATE TO HAVE HAD SOME VERY WISE PARENTS!!!...
I HAD A CLOSE FRIEND AND ASSOCIATE...WHO SPENT SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS PLAYING PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL (I YEAR IN EUROPE AND 7 YEARS IN THE NBA)!!!...HE WAS RAISED IN MISSISSIPPI...AND ALL THE BOYS IN HIS FAMILY WERE STAR ATHLETES GROWING UP!!!...MY BUDDY...WHEN IT CAME TIME FOR COLLEGE...WOULD HAVE BEEN AN OBVIOUS RECRUITMENT FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF MISSISSIPPI...BEING HOME GROWN TALENT AND ALL...BUT IN THE LATE 60'S...OLE MISS STILL HADN'T RECRUITED ANY BLACK ATHLETES...SO MY FRIEND WAS PRETTY MUCH FORCED TO ATTEND A PREDOMINATLY BLACK UNIVERSITY...WHERE HE WAS A STANDOUT BASKETBALL PLAYER AND IN FACT WAS ALSO DRAFTED BY THE SAN DIEGO CHARGERS AS A TIGHT END...EVEN THOUGH HE NEVER PLAYED COLLEGE FOOTBALL!!!...WE OFTEN DISCUSSED HOW...HE WOULD HAVE HAD SO MUCH MORE EXPOSURE HAD HE PLAYED AT A LARGE UNIVERSITY LIKE OLE MISS...AND MOST LIKELY WOULD HAVE BEEN A FIRST ROUND NBA DRAFT PICK INSTEAD OF THE SECOND ROUND PICK HE BECAME...CAUSING CONTRACT PROBLEMS IN HIS ROOKIE YEAR...AND FORCING HIM TO PLAY HIS FIRST YEAR IN EUROPE!!!...SEGREGATION AND DISCRIMINATION COST HIM REAL MONEY!!!...SOME MAY REMEMBER...YOU'LL REMEMBER THIS MED...WHEN SPENCER HAYWOOD...WHO GREW UP IN MISSISSIPPI AT THE TIME OF THIS FRIEND I SPEAK OF...WAS LITERALLY TAKEN IN BY PERSHING HIGH BASKETBALL COACH WILL ROBINSON...AND PLAYED OUT HIS LAST HIGH SCHOOL YEARS IN DETROIT...GIVING MUCH MORE EXPOSURE AND MANY MORE OPTIONS THAN MY FRIEND HAD...AND ULTIMATLY EARNING SPENCER MUCH MORE MONEY AND RECOGNITION!!!...ANOTHER...PERHAPS SUBTLE CASUALTY OF SOUTHERN DISCRIMINATION AND JIM CROW!!!...STUBASS

By bobkayli (151.92.176.3) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 09:54 am:

Being white, english and living in france, maybe my views don't hold much weight but I lived through the 60s/70s as a Motown fan so maybe I have something to add.
I think Berry's success was the exception that proved the rule as regards CEOs of top companies. If he hadn't started the Motown company, I don't believe he could have been CEO in the 60s.
No doubt though, his success opened doors that others could pass through in terms of running large companies.
As regards larger cultural change, I think Motown did open up white markets which were subsequently more receptive to music which dealt with the realities of life in the 'ghetto' etc. A lot of the more funky early 70s soul out of Motown amongst others would never have been released in the mid 60s. but the time was also one of great change with establishment being challenged worldwide at all levels (youth, race, colour) whether in US or Europe so maybe change would have happened anyway.
Motown was always a business rather than a crusade but just by being there it helped the crusade I think. People who accused them of selling out have probably never known what it is to run a business, having to earn enough to pay the bills at the end of the month is a sobering experience. Just by surviving motown made a valid point for the black movement.
I am also wary of people re-writing history to suit their cause. Maybe the guys who own motown today find that links between motown and the movement for change are a marketing aid when trying to sell the product. All this 'soundtrack for a generation' crap leaves me cold. I loved the music as I loved other types of music and object to being considered a bit player in some wide Hollywood view of things.
It's a complex area you've touched on and even though I've lived throughout the age, i don't really know what answer to give. I think I'd better stop rambling and get back to doing some work even though it's too hot for that today!

By KevGo (64.115.26.80) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 11:44 am:

Stu, Sis & Company:
Of all the posts I've read that have dealt with the issue of race & music this is by far the most educational for me & for that I thank you all.

I really cannot speak about Motown & its effect on ending Jim Crow because I was a newborn in 1966 while my father was attending a seminary in Upstate NY. What I can say is that when I was growing up, Motown (and I have to include Curtis Mayfield, Gamble & Huff as well) showed me that a Black American can own his/her own business and be successful in America. Magazines such as Ebony & Essence ran articles and interviews with folks such as Curtis Mayfield, Smokey Robinson (who I believe was a Motown Vice President)and James Brown running their businesses or working with/for other Blacks and being successful with creating music that appealed to a wide number of people. If anything, these folks influenced a generation of people of all races and ethnic hues to follow their lead.

Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 11:58 am:

This probably is a fruitful discussion if, like Kevin, we talk about the effect on us personally.

I think for baby boomers like me of the melanin-deficient variety, what Motown did was give us black teen idols. Our parents had enjoyed and followed the great black big band and jazz musicians, but it was perhaps at a distance.

As each generation progressed, thus when Berry Gordy rolled out Motown with one of his goals being to lure white teenagers with his sound, he succeeded magnificently and suddenly many white kids wanted to BE like Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross or the Temptations, not just listen to them.

Motown marketing brilliantly groomed the stars so they truly were stars -- as a kid I would watch Ed Sullivan every week to take in every detail of the Supremes' dresses, makeup and hair. This was potent, fantasy stuff.

(Thus it is that when black friends at work talk about hair and wig issues, I pipe right up with an opinion (laugh). And it was a black reporter who first showed me how to French braid my hair -- and her method actually worked on me!)

I think we have more cross-cultural ties between blacks and whites partly as a result of the music. The heading of this thread is much too simplistic, and Sis is right. You can't credit music with ending Jim Crow, that is trivializing what happened.

But focusing on what Motown did to the minds and hearts of white teenagers -- it had a lot of effect, I think.

By Tony Russi (68.210.9.227) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:11 pm:

You are so right Sue...its the positive effects Motown artists and other Black recording artists had on us and our personal experience.I remember the first live show we got to go to the curtain went up and the big Joe Tex band started playing "Philly Dog" & all of us in the first row jumped up & started dancing in front of our seats & then here comes the big red neck cops with their billy clubs in front of their chests & pushed me & my brother back down in our seats with mean looks on their faces.I did not tell my Dad because he might not let us go to the next show.I was 14 & Randy was 10.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:39 pm:

HEY BOBKAYLI!!!..NICE POST...ALTHOUGH I DON'T KNOW THAT I'M IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH YOUR POINT THAT BERRY GORDY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AS SUCCESSFUL HAD HE NOT HAD MOTOWN!!!...I THINK THAT A MAN WITH BERRY'S DRIVE AND INTELLIGENCE COULD HAVE CHANNELED THOSE CHARACTERISTICS INTO WHATEVER HE CHOOSE TO DO...IT JUST HAPPENED TO BE MUSIC THAT HELD HIS INTEREST!!!...THERE WAS MR. JOHNSON IN CHICAGO (COSMETICS MAGNATE)..THE GENTLEMAN THAT JUST PURCHASED THE NBA TEAM...AND THE GUY WHO MADE BILLIONS WITH BEATRICE INDUSTRIES...WILLIE DAVIS...AND MANY MORE BLACK ENTREPENUERS THAT GOT THEIR START IN THE 50'S AND 60'S THAT BECAME SUCCESSFUL...ESPECIALLY IN THE NORTH...BUT BERRY GORDY'S DRIVE AND AMBITION PROBABLY WOULD HAVE MADE HIM A SUCCESS IN WHATEVER HE CHOOSE TO DO!!!...STUBASS

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:52 pm:

Sue, as usual, hit the nail right on the head. When I went to school, Ferndale High was integrated--I think that's why they build it on the south end of the district--which changed my perspective a little bit.
BUT, the one thing that sticks in my mind was radio, and why it sticks is that rock radio in the '60's in Detroit was basically colorblind. When you heard a song, you had no idea if the artist was black, white, purple, or aqua-marine. You heard the song. No video, no posturing, no fancy clothes or cars. Just the song, and if it was a good song, you liked it, no matter who did it. I'm not sure where in the social context this fits in, but it sure effected me in a positive way.
So did my dad, but that's a different story for another time.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 01:46 pm:

For those of you who think listening to black music and buying it in the store had a part in stopping the segregation, the racism, and the hatred, let me tell you a nice little truth.

I began buying Hitsville recordings when they first came out. Marv Johnson, Mary Wells, The Miracles. I even bought "It" by Ron and Bill. By 1969, I had all of the Temptations, all of the Four Tops, and all of the Supremes albums. And apparently, white people had them as well. Well, in 1969, by now Motown was in California.
I applied for a position at Yellow Pages. I could identify numbers quickly because I had job experience with address and telephone numbers. I typed 70 wpm on a Royal manual typwriter. I was highly qualified. I passed the required written and number identification test with flying (black) colors. I wanted to be a telephone operator or just have a job at Yellow Pages which was very close to my parents home. This young white lady, about 28-34, said "You have great skills, you passed the test with flying colors, but why don't you go back and take up shorthand, and come back and apply again." I'm thinking, what the hell do I need with shorthand to be an operator giving out phone numbers. Then it hit me. THEY DID NOT WANT ANY BLACKS WORKING THERE. I was hurt, but not disheartened.

I went to the employment office, took a couple tests written and typing, and the lady said "My you are good, I'm going to send you to ?? where they compile binders for companies of the City Director." I went to the Company, had to take another typing test on a manual, passed. The room was filled with all white employees. I didn't see a black in the place. The white guy said. "That's great. You will be working on the electric typwriter. (Pointing the typewriter out to me) But before I put you on it. I'm going to start you back here so you can get to know the Company and what we do." He took me to the back, through some doors, and lo and behold, a different world. The back room was filled with all Black people who were sorting mail. He asked a black girl to show me how to sort mail. The job was so easy, I knew what to do after two minutes. I did the job all day. Every once in a while, a white guy would stroll through the back and just look at the people. It was very quiet back there. At the end of that day, the guy said. You did a very good job. You will be here for a few weeks and we will see what happens." LET ME TELL YOU SOULFUL DETROITERS, WHEN I LEFT THOSE DOORS I KNEW I WAS NOT GOING BACK THERE. I WAS NOT SELECTED TO BE A MAIL SORTER IN THE BACK ROOM WHERE THE PUBLIC COULD NOT SEE ME. I CALLED THE NEXT DAY AND TOLD THEM TO MAIL ME MY ONE DAY CHECK. I wasn't going to settle for less than what I deserve. During that same week, I was offered a job with the State, the Federal, and with a Catholic Church. They all wanted me for my skills and ability which had been proven. The personnel manager of the Federal asked me why had I left that Company after working for only one day. I told him the truth, "I WAS NOT SELECTED FOR THE POSITION I HAD APPLIED BECAUSE I WAS BLACK." I was immediately hired and within 9 months was promoted.

SOULFUL DETROITERS, WHERE WAS THE BLACK MUSIC WHEN I NEEDED IT?

By Diego (205.188.209.109) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 01:49 pm:

While Motown music surely appealed to white kids in the 60s and 70s--how could it not? You had to be comotose not to be drawn to that sound--i'm afraid its impact on Jim Crow was zilch. the reason being racism in America is an institutional problem--government, commerce,politcs, media, etc. worked in concert to lock black folk out of the avenues to a decent life. the civil rights movement wasn't a struggle for rights that no one else had--it was about dying to achieve the basic rights--i.e. voting--granted to every American under the U.S. Constitution. The fact is you could have lived in the south, "saw Jim Crow in action" as someone wrote and enjoyed Motown music without ever connecting the dots. At the same time, you could be a white southerner and see the humanity in a person of another color and love Roy Acuff. What mattered is whether you were willing, like say Viola Liuzzo, to lay your life on the line to try and change the institutional racism. Black entertainers were often the only non domestic blacks many whites every encountered back in the day, as some posters have pointed out, so Gordy/Motown did have a startling impact on the status quo. Listening to the music required some subterfuge for white kids. Kids in the Carolinas seemed to have called what black kids knew as "soul music" "beach music" so the elders wouldn't get upset. Complex? Oh yeah. Growing up in Jim Crow Mississippi, we always had white neighbors,boys and girls with all that infers. it's why i know you have to learn who the person is before you decide what kind of heart(and soul)lies beneath the skin color. the impact of segregation both defacto and dejure has done incredible damage to Americans, and yet i am hopeful because thanks to among many other things, this music, frank discussions on race can now occur. from where i come from, that is huge!

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 02:14 pm:

SisDetroit....
....i didn't mean to imply that liking soul music changed the context of the United States. Someone asked for personal experiences, and you got one. It obviously did not have a lasting impact on the great scheme of things, otherwise we would not have the problems we have today.
What it did for me was help shape a perspective on a race of people that up until high school I had no real contact with, and what the music did (along with church, my parents, and other influences) was help mold and shape my morals and views in a manor that was positive in both my personal growth and my view towards society as a whole.
For the last 25 years I have lived in a very racist area. The minority is different, but the attitudes are the same, and it is my hope that the the wisdom I gained growing up in the Detroit area, with all its influences, have halped me be a better person here.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 02:32 pm:

SIS!!!...UNFORTUNATLY...THE STORY YOU TELL WAS ALL TOO COMMON...AND I'M SURE THAT REMNANTS OF THAT MINDSET STILL EXIST TODAY!!!...I WAS ONCE DENIED A JOB I WAS QUALIFIED FOR...BECAUSE I TOLD THE GUY THAT I WANTED TO EARN 100K PER YEAR ONE DAY...AND HE TOLD ME THAT MY GOALS WERE TOO HIGH FOR HIS COMPANY...ALTHOUGH I DIDN'T TELL HIM I EXPECTED TO MAKE IT THERE!!!...IT REALLY DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR ANY COMPANY OR CORPORATION TO DENY THE BEST QUALIFIED PERSON A JOB IN THIS DAY AND AGE...REGARDLESS OF RACE...CREED...OR NATIONAL ORIGIN!!!...IT'S BAD BUSINESS...AND WHY WOULD A BUISINESS NOT HIRE SOMEONE WHO COULD MAKE THEM MORE SUCCESSFUL THEN SOMEONE ELSE WHO WILL NOT BE AS SUCCESSFUL!!!...BUT FOR MANY PEOPLE OF COLOR...AND CERTAIN RELIGIONS...THERE IS NO DENYING THE DISCRIMINATION WHICH DID RUN RAMPANT DUE TO SOCIAL MORES...AND UNFAIRLY AFFECTED PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF!!!...AS FOR THE MUSIC THING AND JIM CROW...WE CERTAINLY CAN'T MINIMIZE THE REAL STRUGGLES THAT TOOK PLACE...BUT IF MUSIC HELPED *SOME* PEOPLE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER BETTER...THEN PERHAPS IT HELPED SERVE AS A BREAKTHROUGH IN SHOWING THAT BLACK PEOPLE COULD COMPETE WITH WHITE PEOPLE ON AN EQUAL BASIS WHEN GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY...AND THATS THE REAL GOAL HERE ANYWAYS...ISN'T IT???...THANKS...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 02:36 pm:

Douglasm - My posts concerns the topic "DID BERRY GORDY END JIM CROW."

My post has nothing to do with how the Motown music made you feel, or how through music white folk began to admire and socialize with black folk.

I know soul music sounds good because it hits you where your heart is. Black folks are soulful by nature, that's why the music is so passionately soulful. Some white folks I knew in the 60's were not into music, but yet, they befriended me through other means.

Most of the young white Temptations fans knew nothing of the Temptations until 1998. Now they think they know them personally although 5 of the Classics were already dead. BLACK HISTORY SHOULD BE WRITTEN AS IT REALLY IS, AND NOT CHANGED TO SOUND REALLY NICE AND EASY AND GLORIOUS. Black music was good before Motown and Black music will be go since BERRY has retired.

By Diego (205.188.209.109) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 03:06 pm:

StuBass, re: segregated southern colleges--black college sports, football especially, thrived during the jim crow era. Grambling used to lead the south in players taken in the NFL draft. scouts had no trouble locating the talent at Gramblng, Jackson State, Southern, etc. now the integrated SEC is one of the strongest conferences in the country due to black players. meanwhile, those black schools can't compete with the big white schools for talent,all of whom still have 90 percent white enrollement. and what major conference has yet to hire a black head coach? Yep, the SEC. That's one of the ironies of the end of Jim Crow--white institutions grew and thrived with the infusion of black talent, while many historically black institutiuons withered on the vine.

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 03:10 pm:

Sis...
...true statement, well stated.
Seperate but equal is not a true statement, though, because you can't be equal in a society like ours through seperation (I'm real good at pointing out the obvious). I'm no mover or shaker. I'm just a convenience store clerk who never understood segregation from an economic standpoint. I guess what I was trying to say was that my upbringing (of which music was a big part) went a l o n g way towards forming my attitudes towards other people and cultures, and through my day to day actions in my own little way(heavy on the little)I hope I'm doing the best I can to reduce the intollerence which pulls people apart instead of drawing them together.

Sincerely
Doug Shirk

By paulie3shoes (152.163.252.68) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 04:06 pm:

eh, dis is ol paulie (over here)
who is dis jim crow fella youse all is tawkin bout??^&*( wuts he look like??$%^&
not fer nuttin but jus let ol paulie get a hold of his ass and me an my goombas will whack dat co*****ker!!!@#$%^&* an aye fer an eye an a toot" fer a toot'

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 06:21 pm:

OK, Paulie3Shoes, go get him. Let's invite him to one of our affairs and torture him until he begs for mercy. :o)

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 06:38 pm:

HOPEFULLY SIS...THE SOB IS ALREADY DEAD!!!...UNLESS YOU WANT TO PUT HIM BACK TOGETHER SO WE CAN KILL HIM AGAIN!!!...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 06:40 pm:

LOL, Stubass, I'm going to recommend that you be placed on the "Comedy Hour" so we can see you on BET. (LOL)

By bobkayli (151.92.176.5) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 05:03 am:

Hello Stubass,
My comments on Berry weren't a reflection on his personal qualities but more a comment on the glass ceilings which operated in large companies at the time. Institutional barriers (bankers, stockholders etc.) would have made his rise to the top very difficult. His bankers in the beginning were his family and he was the stockholder so these barriers weren't there.
I'm just grateful he channeled his energies into Motown which is still one of my passions. I'm over to detroit next week to see Martha and Dennis Edwards at Pine Knob. It will be my second visit to detroit. The first time I was wary of the town by it's reputation but found an instant bond with Detroiters when i explained the reason for my visit, everyone seemed to have their Motown tale to tell. This time i am looking forward to the visit as much for meeting Detroiters as for visiting the Motown museum and touring the old Detroit studio sites (thanks to the map on this site). Another positive by-product of motown in breaking down barriers! So if anyone sees a crazy looking pair peeking through windows of empty buildings in Detroit next week, don't report us, but come over and say hi to the wife and I!

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 09:55 am:

BOBKAYLI!!!...HAVE A BALL IN DETROIT AND AT THE SHOW...I'M QUITE FAMILIAR WITH PINE KNOB!!!...DON'T FORGET TO TRY ONE OF THOSE PATENTED DETROIT CONEY ISLANDS!!!...WE ARE ALL FORTUNATE THAT BG DECIDED THAT MUSIC WAS HIS THING...FOR I DON'T KNOW THAT THIS SITE COULD EXIST HAD BERRY AQUIRED A PASSION FOR PLUMBING FIXTURES!!!...STUBASS

By janebse (68.63.5.177) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 10:22 am:

Stubass,

I asked the question because the answer is so complex that I didn't see how I could get anything near accurate in a short posting. I was born and raised in Michigan near Detroit.Went to the University of Michigan. And I have lived my adult life in the Deep, Deep South. I have observed all of the things you are wondering about. I have also been a part of them. And I can't decide how to answer honestly and accurately in a brief space. You asked an apparently simple question about how the kid felt, but even what appears to be a simple question isn't really. It's a shame I can't just sit down and talk with you.

I can say that I think what Berry Gordy accomplished was a tremendous, amazing, astonishing contribution to American music, and, yes, we are all fortunate that he acquired a passion for music. And by "we" I mean every single American.

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:23 am:

JANEBASE!!!...I THINK YOU HAVE ANSWERED THE QUESTION...IN THAT WHILE YOUR CHILDHOOD EXPERIENCES COME FROM A NORTHERN PERSPECTIVE...THAT PERSPECTIVE...I'M SURE HAS INFLUENCED THE WAY YOU HAVE SEEN THINGS IN THE SOUTH!!!...IT IS INTERESTING THAT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE TAKEN A "REVERSE MIGRATION"...BACK TO THE SOUTH IN RECENT YEARS!!!...I AM ASSUMING FROM YOUR POSTS THAT YOU COME FROM A CAUCAUSION BACKGROUND...AND IT'S ONLY IMPORTANT AS TO YOUR PARTICULAR PERSPECTIVE!!!...I'M SURE YOU HAVE SEEN MANY CHANGES...HAVING LIVED A NUMBER OF YEARS IN THE DEEP SOUTH...AS WELL AS VESTAGES OF THE TYPE OF DISCRIMINATION THAT WAS ALL TOO COMMON DECADES AGO!!!...QUICK STORY!!!...ABOUT A MONTH AGO...I WAS PLAYING GOLF AT A LOCAL GOLF CLUB WITH A FRIEND...AND A SINGLE PLAYER...VISITING TOWN ASKED TO JOIN US!!!...THIS GUY (CAUCASION) HAD A STRONG SOUTHERN ACCENT...AND TOLD US HE WAS FROM BIRMINGHAM ALABAMA...AND WAS IN SO CAL...HAVING HELPED A FRIEND MOVE OUT HERE!!!...AROUND THE 7TH OR 8TH HOLE...BEING THE CURIOUS PERSON THAT I AM...AND AS HE LOOKED INTO THE SURROUNDING HILLSIDE...COMMENTING THAT THOSE HILLS WOULD MAKE A GOOD PLACE FOR A "SNIPER TO HIDE"(REALLY)...ASKED HIM WHAT KIND OF WORK HE DID!!!...HE REPLIED THAT HE WAS A "SNIPER" SPECIALIST"(SWAT) FOR THE BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA POLICE DEPARTMENT!!!...WE JOKED A BIT ABOUT HIS WORK...BUT DURING THE REST OF THE ROUND...HIM NOT KNOWING WHAT MY POLITICS MAY BE...I STARTED LOOKING FOR ANY DISCERNABLE CHARACTER INDICATORS RELATING TO HOW HE MAY FEEL ABOUT SOCIAL ISSUES (MEMORIES OF BULL CONNOR AND ALL FLYING THROUGH MY HEAD)!!!...I CAN HONESTLY SAY...THAT I COULD NOT DETECT *ANY* TYPE OF OBVIOUS RACISM FROM THIS GUY...DESPITE THE FACT THAT WE SPOKE OF HOUSING PATTERNS AND THE LIKE DURING OUR DISCUSSIONS!!!...WE ENDED UP PLAYING SOME EXTRA HOLES...UNTIL THE SUN WENT DOWN...ME FEELING COMFORTABLE ENOUGH TO START CALLING HIM "BUBBA"...AND HIM JOKING THAT IF HE WON ANY MONEY...AND I DIDN'T PAY...HE DID HAVE HIS GUN IN HIS RENTAL CAR (I ACTUALLY WON A FEW BUCKS FROM HIM)...BUT IT WAS AN INTERESTING EXPERIENCE...AND I'M SORT OF GLAD THAT I MET THIS GUY!!!...THANKS FOR YOUR POST!!!...STUBASS

By Ralph (209.240.198.62) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:36 am:

Speaing of the term " Jm Crow '. I got a little curious since my American history memories is a little vague. A little history lesson....Who Was Jim Crow?����������������� MORE PICTURES
The name Jim Crow is often used to describe the segregation laws, rules, and customs which arose after Reconstruction ended in 1877 and continued until the mid-1960s. How did the name become associated with these "Black Codes" which took away many of the rights which had been granted to Blacks through the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments?
"Come listen all you galls and boys,
I'm going to sing a little song,
My name is Jim Crow.
Weel about and turn about and do jis so,
Eb'ry time I weel about I jump Jim Crow."
These words are from the song, "Jim Crow," as it appeared in sheet music written by Thomas Dartmouth "Daddy" Rice. Rice, a struggling "actor" (he did short solo skits between play scenes) at the Park Theater in New York, happened upon a Black person singing the above song -- some accounts say it was an old Black slave who walked with difficulty, others say it was a ragged Black stable boy. Whether modeled on an old man or a young boy we will never know, however, it is clear that in 1828 Rice appeared on stage as "Jim Crow" -- an exaggerated, highly stereotypical Black character.
Rice, a White man, was one of the first performers to wear blackface makeup -- his skin was darkened with burnt cork. His Jim Crow song-and-dance routine was an astounding success that took him from Louisville to Cincinnati to Pittsburg to Philadelphia and finally to New York in 1832. He then performed to great acclaim in London and Dublin. By then "Jim Crow" was a stock character in minstrel shows, along with counterparts Jim Dandy and Zip Coon. Rice's subsequent blackface characters were Sambos, Coons, and Dandies. White audiences were receptive to the portrayals of Blacks as singing, dancing, grinning fools.
By 1838, the term "Jim Crow" was being used as a collective racial epithet for Blacks, not as offensive as nigger, but as offensive as coon or darkie. Obviously, the popularity of minstrel shows aided the spread of Jim Crow as a racial slur. This use of the term did not last past a half century. By the end of the 19th Century, the words Jim Crow were less likely to be used to derisively describe Blacks; instead, the phrase Jim Crow was being used to describe laws and customs which oppressed Blacks.
The minstrel show was one of the first native forms of American entertainment, and Rice was rightly regarded as the "Father of American minstrelsy." He had many imitators. In 1843, four White men from Virginia, billed as the "Virginia Minstrels," darkened their faces and imitated the singing and dancing of Blacks. They used violins, castanets, banjos, and tambourines. Their routine was successful and they were invited to tour the country. In 1845, the Christy Minstrels (for whom Stephen Foster wrote some of his most popular songs) originated many features of the minstrel show, including the seating of the blackface performers in a semicircle on stage, with the tambourine player (Mr. Tambo) at one end, and the castanet player (Mr. Bones) at the other; the singing of songs, called Ethiopian melodies, with harmonized choruses; and the humorous banter of jokes between the endmen and the performer in the middle seat (Mr. Interlocutor). These performers were sometimes called "Ethiopian Delineators" and the shows were popularly referred to as "Coon Shows."
Rice, and his imitators, by their stereotypical depictions of Blacks, helped to popularize the belief that Blacks were lazy, stupid, inherently less human, and unworthy of integration. During the years that Blacks were being victimized by lynch mobs, they were also victimized by the racist caricatures propagated through novels, sheet music, theatrical plays, and minstrel shows. Ironically, years later when Blacks replaced White minstrels, the Blacks also "blackened" their faces, thereby pretending to be Whites pretending to be Blacks. They, too, performed the Coon Shows which dehumanized Blacks and helped establish the desirability of racial segregation.
Daddy Rice, the original Jim Crow, became rich and famous because of his skills as a minstrel. However, he lived an extravagant lifestyle, and when he died in New York on September 19, 1860, he was in poverty.1
The minstrel shows were popular between 1850 and 1870, but they lost much of their national popularity with the coming of motion pictures and radios. Unfortunately for Blacks, the minstrel shows continued in small towns, and worse, caricatured portrayals of Blacks found greater expression in motion pictures and radios.
©�Dr. David Pilgrim, Professor of Sociology
Ferris State University
Sept., 2000

By STUBASS (152.163.252.68) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:14 pm:

RALPH!!!...THANKS FOR THE INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE HISTORY LESSON!!!...IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE...THAT IMMEDIATLY FOLLWING THE CIVIL WAR...ENFORCED SEGREGATION WAS RARELY...IF EVER PRACTICED IN THE SOUTH!!!...WHILE ECONOMIC DISPARITIES BETWEEN BLACKS AND WHITES OBVIOUSLY EXISTED...THE TWO RACIAL GROUPS LIVED AND WORKED IN VERY CLOSE PROXIMITY!!!...IT WASN'T UNTIL THE LATE 1800'S....ACCORDING TO C VAN WOODWARD...IN HIS BOOK "THE STRANGE CAREER OF JIM CROW"...THAT JIM CROW LAWS AND INCREASING BIGOTRY AND SEGREGATION CAME BACK INTO FASHION!!!...WOODWARD ATTRIBUTES THESE CHANGES PRIMARILY TO... 1. THE WITHDRAWEL OF NORTHERN INFLUENCE IN THE SOUTH AS THE COUNTRY MOVED FURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY FROM THE MEMORIES OF THE WAR!!!...2. ECONOMIC DEPRESSION SWEEPING THE UNITED STATES AND EUROPE DURING THAT PERIOD!!!...3. SUPREME COURT DECISIONS WHICH IMPLIED THAT ENFORCED SEGREGATION OF THE RACES HAD A LEGAL BASIS!!!...THE REST...OF COURSE...IS WELL DOCUMENTED HISTORY!!!...STUBASS

By stephanie (68.50.216.139) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:22 pm:

In my personal experience Motown helped me to see that people of all colors could enjoy music and not feel threatened by blacks. Did it get rid of Jim Crow I dont think so. When it came to Motown because the beat didnt have a soulful sound like say something out of STAX I think it made black acts acceptable (which they should be anyway) to perform at the Copa and on TV for example Ed Sullivan and the Hollywood Palace and all. The Supremes and the Temps were to break those barriers for the Motown acts.

Another thing the imaging did was to show Diana Ross who is skinny and we all know in the 60s it was in to be thin. Ross showed that blacks could be a part of the thin culture and look like models as well. I just think that it is so sad for some to think that blacks have to have white features in order to be successful and you see a lot of light skinned women in pictures only for that reason. I have to give Motown credit they didnt sound WHITE if you will like a
(and I hate to be generic here because its not fair) like a Johnny Mathis or Nat King Cole. They didnt go the easy listening route they still had soul but its just wasnt as gruff as say Stax or King or Federal or Polydor. Motown retained their soulful sounds with the Temps and Marvin Gaye and they didnt compromise good music.
The only easy listening people I can think of who were on the label were Barbara McNair and Sammy Davis Jr and the late great Bobby Darin.
I must say that white people were buying STAX records but Motown I guess was the teachers pet.

If you to a STAX event you will see more white people there than you do black or a jazz concert whats up with that? Even some of the Motown tributes. I will see a lot of blacks show up for Chaka Khan and Confunkshun and the Isleys but if there is a nostalgic concert going on I always see more whites there does anyone know about that?
Stephanie

By TonyRussi (68.210.9.227) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:37 pm:

As I originaly stated, and I feel with all my heart & soul....the young Black entertainers of the early 60's(especially the Motown artist) greatly helped the Civil Rights Movement especially in the South, where the laws kept the races separated.It was important that young whites were exposed to the music and artist and could see for ourselves that there was no reason for separation .When Mary Wells died, the stories in both the Miami and Orlando papers said something about the singer who helped bring about integration...I think thats a major, positive statement.

By stephanie (68.50.216.139) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:46 pm:

What so sad Tony is that what you say is true and a lot of people dont usually associate the Motown groups with civil rights they think of people like James Brown and the Impressions and the Staple Singers and the like. But you are correct Motown did a lot for civil rights and some of the acts campaigned for civil rights as well. It did bring a certain unity if you will amongst the races..
Stephanie

By janebse (68.63.5.177) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 09:53 pm:

Stubass,

Yes, you are right. I felt I had to add my northern background because everything I saw would have been viewed from that perspective. And it's even much more involved than that. I was involved in the Civil Rights movement, and when I wrote an article for the local newspaper, I fully expected to find a burning cross in my yard one morning. Instead, I received mail addressed to me at home, and all of the letters thanked me for saying what I had said. And I thought all the letter writers were caucausian. I am not claiming that I personally solved any problem; many others in the community were working very hard and we had some tremendous political leaders of both races who worked together.

What I observed was that both black and white regarded Motown music as "their music." And still do. Forty years later you will hear one say, "That is my music." And they mean it means more to them than the Beatles' music.
Never underestimate the power of music.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 09:59 pm:

THATS REALLY TRUE JANEBSE!!!...I THINK THE MOVIE..."THE BIG CHILL" POINTS THAT OUT...AS THE SOUNDTRACK WAS ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY MOTOWN MUSIC...AND THAT WAS THE SOUNDTRACK OF THOSE CHARACTERS LIVES...CAUCASIAN STUDENTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN WHO GRADUATED YEARS EARLIER!!!...STUBASS

By Diego (152.163.206.187) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 04:16 am:

I re-read this thread again, and the effect is very soulful, very powerful..TonyRussi, the story of the James Brown and Smokey posters on the wall and the reaction to it by your father's employer is just stunning. Your father was some stand-up guy!--Janebse is so right--the power of music has no boundary.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 09:33 am:

I doubt very seriously that the black singers of the 60's inluenced the Civil Rights Movement. If you are talking about the hippies, the drugs, the weed, the flower children, the love children, the all night concerts, the Jimmy Hendrix and Janice Joplin crowds being blown away by the loud music, that's different. While these young rebels were spaced out, complaining about Viet Nam, the real civil rights workers were being shot and killed, being ripped by dogs, washed down by the fireman's water hoses, beaten with clubs by the police officers, and marching the streets of Alabama, and Washington, and Detroit in 1963, for civil rights.

In the 60's how many black entertainers were playing in Vegas? In fact, how many Black guest were allowed into the white hotels of Vegas, Sammy Davis, Jr.? Who, by the way, was not singing soul, nor was he acting soulful.

Can't you just see Martin Luther King, the Black Panthers, and Malcomb X dancing to "Shot Gun" or "Baby Where Did Our Love Go?" Was Malcomb really thinking of "A Change is Gonna Come" by Sam Cooke when he was gunned down by the trickery of the FBI in 1965. Did MLK sing "My Girl" as he was being gunned down in 1968. Did any of the Motown entertainers explode due to this injustice, during any of the riots in the 60's? No, they were dodging bullets being shot at in their buses, hoping they will make it through the various cities to the next gig, while their families were home keeping the house together working day jobs.

The Blacks who loved the music by these Black entertainers did not feel that the music was assisting in the movement. Music was comfort to them after they have been denied a job because of their race, or had to move because their house was sprayed with black paint, and a cross placed on their lawns because they moved into a white neighborhood.

You can wish all you want about the music being an influence, but the facts won't go away. There were some White's who also died because of and during the movement. They were not at home listening to a DJ play "I'm Black and I'm Proud." They were out trying to get the laws changed, or passed for equal opportunity.

By Stephanie (68.50.216.139) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 12:14 pm:

sisdetroit,
I hate to admit it but I agree with your posting somewhat I guess the truth hurts sometimes..
Stephanie

By STUBASS (205.188.209.109) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 02:59 pm:

NO ONE WOULD DISPUTE YOUR POINT SIS....THAT THE REAL GAINS IN CIVIL RIGHTS WERE MADE BY THOSE WHO WORKED IN THE TRENCHES...BUT THE BATTLE WAS ALL ABOUT INFLUENCING THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THE VAST MAJORITY OF CAUCASIAN PEOPLE...MANY OF WHOM HADN'T GIVEN A LOT OF THOUGHT TO THE RIGHTS OF AFRICAN AMERICANS!!!...WHAT MOTOWN AND OTHERS DID...JUST LIKE JACKIE ROBINSON AND JOE LOUIS...WAS SHOW MANY WHITES...MANY OF WHOM NEVER SPENT TIME WITH A BLACK PERSON...OR HAD ANY INTEREST IN THEIR LIVES AND STORIES...THAT BLACK PEOPLE COULD BE HERO'S...HAD REAL STORIES BEHIND THEIR LIVES...AND TALENT...THAT MANY WHITES...EITHER THROUGH THEIR OWN INVOLVEMENT...OR THROUGH THEIR CHILDREN...WERE ABLE TO SEE...RESPECT...EMULATE...AND APPRECIATE!!!...THIS INFLUENCED MANY MANY PEOPLE IN THE WHITE COMMUNITIES...AND OVERALL VIEWS STARTED TO CHANGE!!!...HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR SAMMY DAVIS JR...IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO CONVINCE LAS VEGAS HOTEL OWNERS TO INTEGRATE THEIR HOTELS!!!...WERE IT NOT FOR THE ROY CAMPINELLAS...JACKIE ROBINSONS...AND IN MY NEIGHBORHOODS CASE...SMOKEY ROBINSON AND BERRY GORDY...IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE DIFFICULT FOR MANY WHITES TO ACCEPT THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SIDE BY SIDE WITH AFRICAN AMERICANS...NOT THAT THEIR CELEBRITY SHOULD HAVE BEEN NECESSARY...BUT UNFORTUNATLY...IT WAS!!!...STUBASS

By douglasm (68.113.13.31) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 04:02 pm:

Stu....
....I tried to make that point on Aug 4th. This is not to belittle the actions of those on the front lines of the civil rights fight, they did heroic work. But legislating social order doesn't do any good unless it is put into practice by people like you and me in their everyday lives. I'm no mover or shaker, I'm just a convenience store clerk, but its people like me and my wife and my neighbor and her neighbor whose mind has to be won to advance from winning the battle to ending the war.

By STUBASS (64.12.97.7) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 04:56 pm:

AND I DO AGREE DOUG!!!...THE BIGGEST BATTLE IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WAS WINNING OVER THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS!!!...THOSE TERRIBLE SCENES OF POLICE DOGS AND FIRE HOSES RUNNING ACROSS OUR TELEVISION SETS ON A NIGHTLY BASIS CERTAINLY HAD A LOT TO DO WITH ALL THAT...BUT GETTING WHITE AMERICANS TO UNDERSTAND THAT BY AND LARGE...AFRICAN AMERICANS HAD THE SAME GOALS...DESIRES...AND ABILITIES AS THE REST OF US...HAD...IN MY OPINION...MUCH MORE OF AN IMPACT ON COURT DECISIONS...LEGISLATION...AND ATTITUDES THAN THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!...STU

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.85.79) on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 05:46 pm:

I think the minstrel show was a double edged sword. While its premise was a negative stereotype based on ignorance, the fact remains that it brought blacks into the lives of many whites for the first time in roles other than that of servants. Whites watching minstrel shows slowly became less ignorant about black America as the individuals who worked in the shows chose to depict a broader spectrum of black Americans. "Them" slowly began moving in the direction of becoming "us."

As outrageous as Andy and the Kingfish were, Amos was an upstanding citizen trying to do the right thing in tough times. Thankfully, one can only become less ignorant with experience and Amos and Andy expanded white America's identity to include at least a small part of black society. The same was true of Duke Ellington's exceptional use of what amounted to minstrel shows in Harlem to introduce whites to blacks as legitimate musical artists. The segregation of those shows became an embarrassment to many whites and this led directly to the integration of both bands and clubs.

I think Motown was significant because there was a conscious attempt to portray our artists simply as working-class young American entertainers without using any minstrel show tactics. In a sense, Sammy Davis and Motown may have marked the end of black entertainers having the need for a Jim Crow slant in their show. Sadly it didn't mark the end of ignorance, racism or of minstrel shows and the negative impressions they can create.

By Bob Olhsson (12.93.85.85) on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 11:25 am:

Stu, sadly the way all the "liberal" whites around me responded to the OJ trial proved to me that we haven't won over very much at all and perhaps have even become a more racist society since the 1960s.

As some of you know, black and white men riding together in the same car attracts even more LAPD than driving while black does. My very limited direct experience with the racist attitudes of the LAPD told me that OJ deserved at least a little bit of consideration for his position as a black male in LA.

I stood around in horror as almost everybody I knew who wasn't black passionately piled right on OJ. THIS is progress? hardly...

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 11:47 am:

WELL I DO SEE YOUR POINT BOB...AND THAT SOME DISCRIMINATION STILL DOES EXIST...BUT I DON'T KNOW IF OJ IS THE EXAMPLE I'D USE!!!...THE FACT THAT HE'S FREE TODAY DISCOUNTS THAT THEORY...MONEY...FAME...AND COLLECTIVE GUILT...BUT I'M NOT GOING THERE...IT'S HISTORY!!!...MUCH PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE...AND THOSE WHO JUST COMPLAIN SHOULD ASK THEMSELVES ONE QUESTION EVERY MORNING!!!...DESPITE ANYBODY TRYING TO GET IN YOUR WAY...WHAT HAVE *YOU* DONE TODAY TO GET A JOB...LEARN SOME SKILLS...START A BUSINESS...OR EDUCATE YOUR CHILDREN!!!...WE ALL FACE OBSTICLES...SOME GREATER THAN OTHERS...BUT POSITIVE ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS...AND ANYBODY CAN BE SUCCESSFUL IN OUR SOCIETY...IT JUST TAKES WORK!!!...STU

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 08:03 pm:

Our Black entertainers were wearing suit and tie long before Berry was born. Our Black female singers were classy, and dressed extremely well. They didn't use any minstrel show tactics when they performed. You just weren't paying attention. Well, to put it bluntly, those Black entertainers were not shown on tv, or the movies. Therefore, you didn't know they existed. Nor did anyone care how great they were. What you saw, was what they allowed you to see. Those who were paid to act uncle tomish, and there were few.

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 08:58 pm:

Black entertainers were classy, and they were seen all over New York City, in the clubs in Harlem, and up on 52nd Street, Swing Street.

That's where my mother saw the very elegant Billie Holiday. Elegant even in her times of trouble ...

And Duke Ellington, one of the most popular musicians of the Swing Era, and one of the most visible. Elegant beyond belief.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 09:29 pm:

Thanks Sue!

I admire Berry Gordy, and Lord knows I love the Motown Sound. I give Berry all of his credit.

But I will not allow Berry's success to over power or cover up the great talent, intelligence, efforts, and hard work of those before him.

Berry and Motown was allowed to succeed because of the work done by those before him, fighting and dying so he could have the opportunity to succeed.

By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 08:22 am:

Well the point is many elegant black entertainers were seen, before Motown.

Jim G can help me on this, but Benny Goodman insisted upon keeping his star black players like Lionel Hampton, who then had exposure in all the radio, movie and concert appearances Benny made.

My parents and their friends at Penn State were up in New York bebopping to black jazz musicians who pretty much dressed better than they did! All very visible, all before Motown.

By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 08:30 am:

p.s.

I'm not speaking against those who have posted their personal experiences here. I don't think it's right to make people feel bad when they're recounting their own, specific experiences with black music helping spread tolerance in their white family or community, for example.

That is their experience. It was mine as well. They aren't talking about anything more than what they directly experienced, thanks to black music. Here in Detroit white kids like us grew up listening to black artists, and mixed groups of artists playing R&B ...and white R&B artists like Mitch Ryder, so it's part of the fabric of our being. And it clearly influenced a generation of white Americans, for the better.

By Jim G (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 09:48 am:

White 'acknowledgement' of black talent/creativity goes back to Minstrel shows (1840s - early 1900s), at least. Which means that's the real beginning of white looting of black talent!
Minstrel shows are the genesis, in this country, of variety shows like Ed Sullivan, etc.
Ellington and many others played segregated clubs like the Cotton Club in revues with themes like 'darkest Africa' or 'southern plantation'.
Detroit had its own such places, like Club Plantation and Club Congo. This is the way black entertainment was packaged; it had to relate somehow to stereotypes created way back when. Ever hear of McKinney's Cotton Pickers? Cutting edge black big band based at the Graystone Ballroom. Management changed their name from 'McKinney's Synco's' to MCP. The band comprised middle class musicians from Springfield, Ohio and environs. They'd never SEEN a cotton field.

Guys like Benny Goodman presented black artists as artists, the equal of any other musicians in his band, but southern sponsors wouldn't accept Hamp or Teddy Wilson as 'regular' members of the orch, only as 'special features' in the quartet.

Most integrated bands didn't happen until the 1940s, and then they were generally small groups, like the ones led by Bird and Diz.
One guy seldom mentioned in this regard is Norman Granz. He insisted on integrated audiences for his Jazz At The Philharmonic performances. He championed, and recorded, older musicians like Hawk, Pres and JC Heard at a time when few record guys were interested in them. He treated his musicians well, paid them good money, first class accommodations. No segregated hotel bullshit for Granz. He had the chutzpah, and the power, to make it happen. JC always spoke well of Norman, whom he liked.

Sue's last paragraph hit the nail on the head. I know Motown influenced me, raised my awareness of black culture. I mean, even my parents liked the Supremes!
BTW...Ellington was a cutting edge fashion plate as well as a cutting edge bandleader.

By Scratcher (65.238.127.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 10:01 am:

If American History had been taught right people's awareness of black culture would have been raised by the many blacks who invented itemes we use daily like the stoplight, etc., and heroic black soldiers like the Tuskeegee Airmen, and others who have fought honorably for this country while living as second class citizens. Not to mention the many black educators, politicians and doctors. I can't argue about personal experiences and what some of you feel but I can say it's an indictment of this country's educational system that so many of you guys awareness of black culture was raised because of black entertainers.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 11:00 am:

Jim G has taken the time to learn of the Black musical culture. He does not fantasize.

Because of the style of music recorded by Gordy and his writers, producers, musicians, a new genre of music was made by Blacks. These were the times to get the music out to the white airwaves. It did not come without a price being paid. Had it not been for the times, being cleared by so many others, the white generation of that time would not have been able to tune into the station that played "race music" as it was called.

How did he do that? Not by marching down Woodward and putting himself in harms way, but by bringing in the white managers.

When Martin Luther was killed in 1968, fighting for the rights of both Blacks and Whites, Berry was in California, surrounded by the White establishment, planning on how to make his next million.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 11:11 am:

My greatgrand-father had a cotton plantation. When I was four years old, I picked cotton. Not because I had to, but because I begged to go and was sometimes given the opportunty to pick cotton.

On his land, he had strawberry patches, grape vines, lime trees, fig trees, peacan trees, apple trees, chickens, peacocks, horses, and an acre of potatoes. Plus, we had a victrola by which I heard the music recordings of those great black artist.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 11:19 am:

We had plenty of school books brought home by my great aunt who was a teacher, a sharp dresser, who had one of the first cars in the City. I learned to read before I started school.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 12:16 pm:

STUBASS - The question should be "DID BERRY GORDY SELL OUT?"

(No offense DMeikle. I admire Gordy also.) :o)

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 12:26 pm:

HEY SIS!!!...NOT TO SAY THAT BERRYS PRIMARY INTENTION WAS TO END SEGREGATION THROUGH HIS MUSIC!!!...RATHER...BERRY GOT INTO BUSINESS...AS SHOULD BE...TO START AND RUN A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS!!!...THAT BEING SAID...AND KEEPING IN MIND BERRYS LACK OF SOCIAL ACTIVISM...MANY GREAT THINGS HAPPEN BY ACCIDENT...AND AS A FUNCTION OF A BYPRODUCT OF EVENTS!!!...SO WHILE BERRY PROBABLY DIDN'T SET OUT TO CHANGE THE AMERICAN POLITICAL LANDSCAPE...THE BELIEF IS...THAT INADVERTANTLY...HIS MUSIC...AND THE WAY IT WAS PRESENTED...THROUGH THE ARTISTS...WRITERS...AND PRODUCERS...DID IN FACT GENERATE COMMON GROUND TO MANY PEOPLE...AND PRODUCING THE "SOUNDTRACK" TO THE MANY CHANGES OCCURING IN OUR SOCIETY AT THAT TIME!!!...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 12:53 pm:

Well, lets just say he made plenty of money, he is a multi-millionaire.

How many of the initial Black artist, with the exception of a hand full, are still hustling to make ends meet, and how many are millionaires?

How many white millionaires did Motown make?
How many black millionaires did Motown make?

Come back with an answer to that one.

By Sue (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 12:58 pm:

How are the rest of us fantasizing, Sis? I'd be curious to know. I posted about my personal experience, so if anyone knows better about it, I'd like to be advised.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:09 pm:

I didn't say you were fantasizing Sue. You lived your experience and you can tell about it. Just as the others tell of their experiences during the 60's.

Some people, however, add things that are not true to make it fit their fantasies. ie, "The same was true of Duke Ellington's exceptional use of what amounted to minstrel shows in Harlem to introduce whites to blacks as legitimate musical artists."

Duke Ellington was not the exception. There were numerous shows by Blacks that were not minstrel shows. But, Sue, you cleaned that up in your response. Harlem had a class of Blacks that far exceeded clown shows.

Same as in Detroit, Blacks had their own businesses, including night clubs. The artist had class, and true talent.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:12 pm:

WELL SIS!!!...THOSE ARE FAIR QUESTIONS!!!...FIRST OF ALL...BERRY MADE THE MOST MONEY OF ANYBODY AFFILIATED WITH MOTOWN...AND PERHAPS...SHOWED MANY OTHER AFRICAN AMERICANS THAT THEY TOO...COULD SUCCEED IN AMERICA!!!...EVEN PEOPLE LIKE THOM BELL...DICK GRIFFEY AND DON CORNELIUS...EVEN SUGE KNIGHT AND PUFF DADDY!!!...WERE IT NOT FOR BERRY...MANY OF THESE PEOPLE MAY NOT HAVE KNOWN THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO SUCCEED IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS!!!...WAS IT BERRYS RESPONSIBILITY TO COUNT THE NUMBER OF BLACK MILLIONAIRES HE HELPED CREATE???...NO!!!...HIS RESPONSIBILITY WAS TO RUN A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS...AND REALLY OWED NOTHING TO ANYBODY!!!...THAT WOULD BE QUITE A BURDON TO CARRY AROUND...BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SUCCESS OF THE ENTIRE BLACK COMMUNITY...AND PATENTLY UNFAIR TO EXPECT!!!...WE DON'T EXPECT WHITE BUSINESS OWNERS OR ASIAN BUSINESS OWNERS TO CARRY THEIR COMMUNITIES!!!...AS FOR ENTERTAINERS...MANY OF THEM HAVE DONE...AND ARE DOING QUITE WELL...THANK YOU!!!...SOME OTHERS NEVER REACHED THE LEVEL OF SUCCESS OF SOME...AND SOME...INVESTED THEIR MONEY UNWISELY AND DIDN'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE OPPORTUNITIES PRESENTED TO THEM!!!...I CAN TELL YOU FOR SURE THOUGH...THAT MANY PEOPLE DID WELL IN LIFE BECAUSE OF BERRY GORDY JR...AND THAT CAN'T BE DENIED!!!...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:13 pm:

But if that's what he saw, it is only because he didn't go to the genuine entertainment shows. Didn't go to the Black establishments. I think it was illegal.

By Julian (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:16 pm:

"Was Malcomb really thinking of "A Change is Gonna Come" by Sam Cooke when he was gunned down by the trickery of the FBI in 1965." - SisDetroit

Hey Sis, did you know that Malcolm and Sam had become friends through mutual friend Muhammad Ali (then Cassius Clay) in 1964? Ali invited both Malcolm and Sam to his camp down in Miami for the Liston fight (didn't the Beatles pass through on this occasion, too?). I'd love to have been a fly on the wall down there when they got together! I wonder what Malcolm's reaction was to Sam's murder later that year, when at this time he himself was dodging death.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:16 pm:

Many people did do well because of Motown. Now we're not just talking about Berry. Remember, he is not alone now.

Plus, how can you invest money that Berry is investing for you?

By Sue (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:18 pm:

I 'cleaned up' my response? What does that mean? I spoke about the clubs my parents went to as young people, nothing more and nothing less.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:25 pm:

Julian - Thanks for spelling the name for me,
"Malcolm."

Sam Cooke was great. I loved Sam. Sam Cooke was killed before Malcolm. If Malcolm was thinking of another great person during his preparation for his speech, he was thinking of his wife and children, Elijah, or the head of the FBI (forgot his name), or the lost people of North America. I doubt that he was thinking of soul music.

By Julian (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:30 pm:

I didn't say he was gettting ready to do the bugaloo, I just said he and Sam were acquainted.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:35 pm:

Sue - You cleaned up the statement I quoted above about the minstrel shows, and the class of Black artist. Meaning, you agreed with me about the class of Black entertainers in Harlem. They were not all minstrel shows.

In trying to put my people in a better light, and defend their integrity, (Since this is the www), I'm not going to try and take on the world. I normally sit back and just read. Some things have to be address by a Black person. When the statement above said we only had minstrel shows, except for Duke, I had to say something.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:36 pm:

Julian - LOL.

By Julain (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:41 pm:

Yeah, I had to laugh myself for that one, too!

By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:41 pm:

I'm utterly baffled. I don't recall the minstrel show quote at all, or who said it.

It appears there are several conversations going on here, and I'm not privy to that one.

It's hard enough to understand people on the world wide web, so I think it's important to take people here at their word, at what they individually post. I am only responsible for what I have posted here. I wasn't reacting to that quote, I don't even know where it is.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:42 pm:

Sue - It's not important. What you said supported what I had said. That's all.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:44 pm:

SIS!!!...CERTAINLY PEOPLE LIKE PAUL ROBSON AND MARION ANDERSON WERE NOT DOING "MINSTREL SHOWS"!!!...HERB JEFFRIES...AFRICAN AMERICAN MOVIE STAR COWBOY WAS NO MINSTREL!!!...UNFORTUNATLY...THE STEREOTYPING OF MANY BLACK ENTERTAINERS WAS A FACT OF LIFE...JEWS TOO...AND EVEN MANY WHITE SOUTHERNERS WERE CAST AS HILLBILLY COUNTRY BUMPKINS...BUT CERTAINLY NOT ALL WERE TYPECAST IN THAT FASHION!!!...STUBASS

By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:46 pm:

Sis, OK gotcha

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:48 pm:

Stubass - Well, Paul Robson was run out of Dodge. There were Black theaters where the black movies were shown, produced by Blacks. But we are talking basically about the musical artist.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:53 pm:

BUT SIS!!!...PAUL ROBSON WAS NOT CHASED BECAUSE OF HIS RACIAL HERITAGE...IT WAS HIS POLITICS!!!...AND WHILE THAT TOO WAS BLATENTLY UNFAIR...MANY WHITES WERE "BLACKBALLED" FOR THE SAME REASON...INCLUDING A RELATIVE OF MINE!!!...STUBASS

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:55 pm:

PS TO ABOVE POST!!!...MY RELATIVE...WAS "RUN OUT OF DODGE" LITERALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT!!!...LEFT MICHIGAN...MOVED WEST...AND ULTIMATLY BECAME THE MAYOR OF A FAIRLY LARGE SOUTHWESTERN CITY!!!...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:03 pm:

Yes, you are correct Stubass. Some whites were "whiteballed", and killed standing up against injustice. Those I give credit for ending Jim Crow. I give them more credit, and honor them more so than I do Berry, or I'd rather say "The Corporation."

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:09 pm:

It was the intent of the Corporation to cross over for money. And they got it. But, I'm not give one ounce of credit to them for ending Jim Crow.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:11 pm:

"WHITEBALLED"...GOOD ONE SIS!!!...I DON'T THINK THAT THE INTENTION OF THIS THREAD WAS TO GIVE BERRY GORDY ANY HUMANITARIAN AWARDS...JUST LOOK AT THE IMPACT OF WHAT HE CREATED ON THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT...REGARDLESS OF WHETHER HIS CONTRIBUTION WAS BY DESIGN OR STRICTLY ACCIDENTAL!!!...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:20 pm:

LOL, I know Stubass. That was a good one. Can you briefly tell me "...the impact of what he created on the Civil Rights Movement?"

Don't tell me that a movie was made by the name of "My Girl" or that you can hear some Motown songs on some soap opera. I already know those songs are great. Remember, I helped start the ball rolling, (being very poor), when I purchased Marv Johnson, Mary Wells, Kim Weston, and The Miracles.

Tell me specifically the real impact on the real Civil Rights Movement. Please don't tell me he tore down the ropes at the dance halls in the South, cause it ain't true. And please don't tell me he became a millionaire, and if he can do it any Blacks can do it. Just tell me the plain truth, no speculations, no probablies, just facts.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:29 pm:

While you're at it, talk about the White DJ in New York who went through hell, because he was playing black music and having shows which included Black entertainers. Did he or did he not stand up to the system. Tell me about it. Did he become a millionaire? (Can't remember his name in my old age.) What was Berry doing in the meantime?

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:29 pm:

STUBASS,
I'd give up that argument.

What I would say is, some (if not many) of the white activists who went down to Mississippi to work on behalf of voting rights for blacks, and against segregation, probably heard and were moved by some of the protest folk music of the early to mid-'60s ... Bob Dylan "The Times They Are A-Changin'" etc.

I know some people of that generation who were active politically, and they almost all have every one of those Dylan albums. Did the music lead to the activism? That's over-simplifying it, but of course it had some effect.

In reading the liner notes to the wonderful re-issues of the Sam Cooke albums, I was interested to read that he wrote "A Change is Gonna Come" after hearing that Dylan song and being impressed. Cooke wanted to weigh in on what was going on then, too.

So you could say music had some effect on people in terms of spreading the message.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:30 pm:

GEEZ SIS!!!...PERHAPS IF YOU RE READ THIS THREAD...YOU'LL SEE WHAT JUST SOME OF THE FOLKS WHO HAVE POSTED HAVE SAID BASED ON THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES!!!...HOW THE MUSIC GAVE THEM A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF "BLACK CULTURE"...AND HOW IT HELPED OTHERS RELATE TO WHITE PEOPLE!!!...HOW BERYS MUSIC SERVED AS A SORT OF SOUNDTRACK OF THE MOVEMENT...AND THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN IT...AND HOW THE MUSIC HELPED PEOPLE OF DIVERSE BACKGROUNDS FORM A COMMON BOND!!!...I'D SAY THAT'S QUITE A CONTRIBUTION!!!...AND YES...BERRY'S SUCCESS DID GIVE MANY BLACK PEOPLE PRIDE IN MY OPINION...THE FACT THAT A BLACK MAN WAS AT THE HELM OF SUCH A SUCCESSFUL OPERATION!!!...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:31 pm:

I will go along with that. Just like Curtis Mayfield's recordings. Great message to the people.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:33 pm:

My last posting was for Sue, regarding message in a song.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:34 pm:

But Stubass - I give up. You've not answered my question.

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:37 pm:

STUB,

Sis isn't talking about how black music helped whites appreciate black culture, or empathize with blacks more.

She's talking specifically about the civil rights movement. You can't put a direct cause and effect between BG and that, and he'd be the first to say that.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:37 pm:

Stubass - Just go and visit Martin's grave,and those other Civil Rights Workers, and tell them that. Let them know that all that had to do was to record with Motown, and that they died for nothing.

By Sue (64.12.97.7) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:42 pm:

p.s. In other words, those who were directly oppressing blacks in the South were not being influenced much by Motown.

By RD (65.150.229.165) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:43 pm:

Not by design or accident did Berry Gordy and Motown Records have a damn thing to do with ending Jim Crow in America. To even suggest so is the height of ignorance and a slap in the face of all the freedom riders, activists, politicians and statesmen that actually made it happen.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:43 pm:

Sue - That is true.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:44 pm:

OK ALL!!!...I'M KINDA AT A LOSS ON YOUR QUESTION...BUT LET ME REITERATE MY POSITION!!!...THE MUSIC CREATED BY BERRY GORDY HELPED BRIDGE A CULTURAL GAP BETWEEN MANY WHITES AND BLACKS...WHICH IN TURN...MADE IT EASIER FOR THOSE PEOPLE TO INTERACT AND RELATE TO EACH OTHER IN SUCH A WAY AS TO PROMULGATE THEIR MUTUAL EFFORTS AS PERTAINED TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT!!!...BERRY GORDY WAS NEVER BITTEN BY A DOG...FIRE HOSED...OR JAILED...BUT HIS MUSIC DID PLAY A ROLE...IN MY OPINION...IN THE CULTURAL EVOLUTION NECESSARY TO ADVANCE THE CIVIL RIGHTS CAUSE!!!...STUBASS

By Sue (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:50 pm:

It was the people who fought against segregation and for voter rights in the South who helped promote civil rights, Stub.

Berry Gordy used white record promoters, and white distributors in the South knowing full well it was the only way he could do business. He did what he had to, given the business conditions circa 1960-64. That didn't advance OR hold back civil rights.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 02:54 pm:

SMART MOVE BY BERRY!!!...WHAT RECORD PROMOTERS BERRY USED DIDN'T DO ANYTHING FOR CIVIL RIGHTS...BUT WHITES LISTENING TO MARVIN GAYE...THE TEMPTATIONS...AND MARY WELLS...INSTEAD OF HANK WILLIAMS AND MINNIE PEARL *DID* INVOLVE MORE PEOPLE IN THE MOVEMENT!!!...STUBASS

By RD (65.150.229.165) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 03:00 pm:

What are you saying, Stu, if there had been no Motown there would still be black and white restrooms at public places...? I think you're giving Berry Gordy far too much credit. There were very successful blacks in America long before Berry Gordy ever thought of starting a record label. Blacks with inate entrepreneurial skills who started successful businesses from virtually nothing and others who earned advanced degrees from some of the most prestigious universities in America and went on to distinguish themselves in public and private enterprises. Now if people feel that Motown helped them appreciate blacks and the black culture better I can't argue that and wouldn't even try but ending Jim Crow, no way.

Berry may have inspired some to start recording companies (though there were black owned companies long before Motown) but hardly any of those companies made any money or were even remotely successful. I really don't think record producers today in their twenties and thirties are disciples of Berry Gordy Jr.

By Sue (152.163.252.68) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 03:03 pm:

And BG deliberately kept Motown music very apolitical. He wanted it to be "the sound of young America" and succeeded wildly, it was fun, frothy, boy-girl stuff. He did record MLK and others, but that was a minor part of the business.

The political music that Marvin Gaye and Stevie Wonder recorded came in the '70s, and the boss resisted that at the time -- this is all well documented. Marvin went through hell to get his political music out.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 03:04 pm:

Yes, Berry did what he had to do to succeed.

Our generation of White folks were ready for a change. The Love Children, the College students. Rebelling against their parents. They rebelled in lots of ways, good or bad. Don't forget they liked Little Richard, The TeenAgers, and DooWop Groups. All before Berry Gordy.

Who listening to that Hitsville sound could resist it, except those whose hate for Blacks,in any form, was ingrained in their minds.

How intergrated is your neighborhood today Stubass?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 03:10 pm:

Now, Marvin and Stevie are real idols. Stevie was right there, at an early age. So, even a blind man could see the disparities.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 03:13 pm:

Didn't he record Sammy Davis Jr.? Why did SDJ record for Motown?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 03:39 pm:

RD - "Berry may have inspired some to start recording companies (though there were black owned companies long before Motown) but hardly any of those companies made any money or were even remotely successful."

So, the question should be "DID BERRY SELL OUT?" Of course he did.

By Sue (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 03:41 pm:

I wouldn't go so far as RD, to say people nowadays don't aspire to be Berry Gordy.

If I had a dollar for every press release I've read promising that someone is going to be the "new" Berry Gordy, starting up the "new" Motown -- I'd take the money and run.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 03:44 pm:

What I have to do is try to understand how these gangster artist are making millions. I cannot understand what they are rapping about. Too fast, and too much loud music. It must be my hearing because my little nephew knows every word. This is a new day.

I can see the videos, and I don't like them.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 03:53 pm:

YO ALL!!!...PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE PERSON WHO LINKED BERRY GORDY AND JIM CROW WAS A PROMINENT WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST (WHOSE NAME ESCAPES ME) AND WHO HAPPENS TO BE AN AFRICAN AMERICAN!!!...THE TOPIC OF HIS INITIAL SPEECH WAS REPERATIONS AND THE IMPACT OF JIM CROW ON PRESENT DAY AMERICA!!!...HE BROUGHT UP THE BERRY GORDY LINK...AND WHAT HE SAID HAD A RING OF TRUTH IN IT TO ME!!!...BERRY GORDY WAS NO DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING...AND DR. KING PROBABLY COULDN'T HAVE PRODUCED HIT RECORDS...BUT BOTH OF THEM MADE CONTRIBUTIONS TO LIFE IN AMERICA IN DIFFERENT WAYS...ALTHOUGH DR KING LIVED THE STRUGGLE FULL TIME...AND BERRY'S CONTRIBUTIONS WERE MORE IN THE AREA OF THE "TOY DEPARTMENT"...BUT WE NEED TOYS TOO!!!...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 04:00 pm:

I will admit that the Hitsville toys were on my player in the 60's The Four Tops The Temptations, Supremes;
the 70's Marvin Gaye, David Ruffin;
the 80's Marvin Gaye,
90's Classic Temptations, Four Tops, Marvin Gaye,
the 20's, Marvin Gaye, The Funk Brothers, Four Tops, Classic Temptations.

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 04:02 pm:

MINE TOO SIS!!!...STUBASS

By RD (65.150.242.13) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 04:17 pm:

Yea, I've read those too Sue, but these young guys are emulating Suge Knight, Master P, Luke Campbell and even Sugar Hill Records. People who came in like pitbulls and got a much bigger piece of the pie percentage wise than Berry ever received. These young turks wouldn't accept the small points that was common in the industry and insisted on half if they were going to find the artist and produced them too (whether for the parent company or their own imprint). While some settle for less than half they're getting far more than the 8 to 12 percent deals that people before them meekly accepted. These young turks started the negotiations from 50 percent down, not from 1 percent up.

By medusa (68.248.5.171) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 09:12 pm:

I'm not a real Rap Fan, but I have 2 admit, that Soul comes N all Demensions~~~ (thanx LOSTINSOUL)
...Donny Hathaway said it best, when he made "Young, Gifted, & Black", ...These Young Rappers R just handling their business like Berry Gordy handled Soul Music...It's just 2 bad more of the Soul Groups of the 60's(other than Motown)aren't still touring abroad like the rolling stones R.

By KevGo (63.164.145.198) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 09:53 pm:

Folks:
I've been a Berry Gordy "disciple" since I was young (early 1970s) - I'm 36 now.
The industry has changed so much since BG launched Tamla and then Motown in the late 1950s. As RD said, the young guns are going for bigger stakes and not the crumbs.
As I said earlier in this post, I cannot say whether Gordy was responsible for beating Jim Crow but I can say that he, along with Jim Stewart & Estelle Axton with Stax/Volt, Ahmet Ertegun at Atlantic, New Orleans legend Allen Toussaint, Vivian & James of Vee-Jay & the Chess Brothers to name a few created empires in which the music was loved by all cultures and races, which brought us closer together as a people.
Kevin Goins - KevGo

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 10:46 pm:

DID BERRY GORDY'S MUSIC FACILITATE THE IMPITUS FOR THE CHANGES THAT WERE FOUGHT FOR AND WON!!!...INTELLIGENT TAKES???...


(With all due respect) Maybe about .000005%. The folks that died, suffered, sacrificed, and worked hard earned and deserve all the glory.

By TD (67.20.49.28) on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 11:38 pm:

When it comes down to it, the Motown sound changed white America for the good. I think if you took a poll of white America, the majority would point to Motown as the number one reason that changed their backward thinking and had the most positive changes to race relationships in the country. Berry Gordy should receive special recognition(Nobel prize) for his achievement of this-regardless if he had intended to do this.
Sue you should put a major story toghether on this. I think it would be worthy of a P.P.

TD

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 09:41 am:

TD,
Why Motown and not Billie, Dinah, Ella, Count, Duke, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, The Platters, etc. (as has already been said)?

I'm not challenging you I'm just wondering why Motown and not the great amount of African-American music that that whites loved that came before it?

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 09:47 am:

To tell you the truth, people are saying the same thing today about hip-hop and I imagaine the same thing could be said about jazz (that they are/did breaking/break down racial divides).

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 10:04 am:

First there must be a few questions on the survey:

(1) What were the elements of the backward thinking? Please specify.

(2) Now that you know they have music to your pleasure, describe your forward thinking.

(2) What are the positive changes to race relationships in the country, aside from the enjoyment of the music?

(3) Other than the fact Black African Americans can sing with rhythm and soul, where do you think they measure and fit into other areas of America's society for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

(4)What should be the name of the Nobel Prize, should Berry be selected?

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 10:12 am:

6) Now that you love me, when are the reparations coming?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 10:15 am:

LOL, Julian, now you've started another debate, all on it's own. LOL.

Perhaps, Berry will give us some of us millions. (DMeikle, I'm just picking with Gordy. I still love Gordy.)

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 10:30 am:

In other words, if my cousin, Martha, still loves Berry, then why shouldn't I?

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 10:48 am:

For real, if my music really moves you and you put you arm around me and call me your brother and you really feel me and care about what happens to me, then it should be a priority with you that I get the wages that were witheld from my parents for centuries, and the damages for their centuries of death and suffering. That will rectify that poor condition that I am in right now. Then I can live better and healthier and really make you some good music.
If you don't want this for me, then you are being hypocritical.

By Ju (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 10:51 am:

AFter all, I am still alive after the radio and TV are turned off. I have children and parents and aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces and nephews. They all don't sing but they still have to live.

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 11:17 am:

My Dear Julian....Can any of your relatives play basketball or football? No, just kidding. :o)

Just keep doing what you're doing in regards to your education, with your writing or producing, and your innate ability will guide you. You will be just fine.

By Julian (205.188.209.109) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 11:37 am:

I thought what legally ended Jim Crow was the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Then there's also the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Motown didn't really begin becoming a great force on the pop charts until '65, right?
So if any music were responsible for these acts at all, wouldn't it be the music that preceded the year 1964?
Also, say Motown had occured as it did, yet no African-Americans had stood up for their HUMAN rights, would we still be living without citizenship in the USA? The white Motown music lovers, would they have taken the inititive and changed the laws and granted us citizenship in this country because of their love of Motown? Without us fighting for oursleves, would the other Motown lovers have ended Jim Crow (remember there would have been no Rights Acts of '64 and '65) or would things have stayed the same?

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 12:16 pm:

Julian - Sue, I believe posted something about those events as it relates to the difference the two, Motown -v- CRM.

Sue's post state: "It was the people who fought against segregation and for voter rights in the South who helped promote civil rights, Stub.

Berry Gordy used white record promoters, and white distributors in the South knowing full well it was the only way he could do business. He did what he had to, given the business conditions circa 1960-64. That didn't advance OR hold back civil rights."

I think that should answer your question, Julian.

By Ju (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 12:32 pm:

I would say that the shared love for the black Motown music and artists probably melted some ice between black and white music lovers, just like with Hip Hop, Jazz, etc. I don't think it played a huge part in the end, though. Like I said, probably .005%.
Hip Hop is more entrenched in white America than Motown was (I know some people are choking now!), but folks are still polorized. I guess the real queston is "does music bring races together?" Answer - Yes and No. I wish it was completely "yes," but we are dealing with complex problems with complex solutions.

By Julian (64.12.97.7) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 12:34 pm:

Oh well, I'm outta here unless someone says something juicy!

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 01:10 pm:

Don't forget the following of Michael Jackson. What other Motown artist produced such a following?

I'm sitting here wondering if I should interest myself with Hip Hop, or should I just interest myself with the re-issues, compiled by Harry Weinger. I think the best choice would be to just cool it with Harry.

Hopefully, there will not be any more juicy comments on this subject.

Now, Stubass, getting back to that question I posted earlier. :o)

By STUBASS (206.135.204.254) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 01:17 pm:

HEY SIS!!!...I'VE BEEN AWAY...BUT TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE...IF I HAVEN'T ALREADY ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION (AND I'M STILL NOT SURE I KNOW WHAT IT IS)...I GUESS I NEVER WILL!!!...STUBASS

By SisDetroit (68.42.209.170) on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 01:30 pm:

I was kidding Stubass. That was just a way of ending, with suspense. :o)