By Sudi Kamau (66.117.198.35) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 04:59 pm:

Does anyone have any knowledge, insight, or thoughts about the claim that studio greats Bernard Purdie and Hal Blaine dubbed Ringo Starr's parts on numerous Beatles records?

By Frankm (81.152.61.29) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 05:13 pm:

Bernard Purdie beefed up the drums on the Polydor recordings e.g. Aint She sweet. You can find all the details on The Bear Family re isuue of all the sessions and different mixes. Despite Pretty's claims he did not appear on any of their EMI/Capitol recordings. Capitol did remix and add echo and reverb to the original early US Vinyl album releases. The CD's are the original UK mixes. Jimmy Nichol did of course play drums on the original Parlophone single release of Love Me Do. Paul McCartney played drums on the Ballad of John and Yoko.

Hal Blaine has never claimed to have played on any Beatles' recordings but he did play on one of Ringo's solo albums.

By Livonia Ken (136.2.1.101) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 05:18 pm:

It's not true. I believe the only Capitol era Beatles studio tracks with someone other than Ringo on drums are the version of "Love Me Do" with the tambourine (Ringo plays tambourine, session player Andy White plays drums) and one or more tracks where Paul McCartney played drums ("Ballad of John & Yoko" is the only one of which I am sure).

Its possible that Purdie and/or Blaine were brought into reinforce or replace parts on some of the non-Capitol releases of things like "The Decca Tapes" or the Tony Sheridan stuff, but they were not on the mainstream releases.

This is sort of like the Carol Kaye thing in that those guys have enough impressive credits that there would seem to be no reason for them to pad their resume with such claims. I have gotten the impression from interviews that Purdie is quite the storyteller and self-promoter, but generally in a way that makes folks smile and shake their head rather than get angry and shake their fist. There's no doubt that the man can lay it down, though.

Regards,
Ken

By DavidS91 (198.81.26.103) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 05:20 pm:

That doesn't seem possible. All of the Beatles recording sessions were so well documented in Mark Lewisohn's excellent "Beatles Sessions" book that if other drummers were there, mention of it would have shown up in the original tapes.

Just about all of the original session tapes exist from the Beatles recordings, and you can hear them talking in the studio. If other drummers were there, there's no question you'd hear their voices, or them being referred to.

In addition, all of the mixing and editing of the tracks was done at Abbey Road studios by George Martin and there's no question that this would have come out if it had been done.

I'd say chances are "slim to none" that anything like this occurred on "numerous Beatles records."

With that said, during the Beatles first couple of albums, the US releases were "tweaked" with reverb and echo under the control of a guy named Dave Dexter with Capitol Records. If anything like this could have occurred, it might have been during these "tweaks" on their first one or two Capitol albums. But that would have only been for the US releases. However, I still believe that it's more likely these changes were done with reverb and studio echo, and not with additional players.

By john c (12.2.233.107) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 05:58 pm:

Jimmy Nichol subbed during an early tour when Ringo was ill (getting his tonsils out or something), but didn't play on any recordings.

By Livonia Ken (136.2.1.101) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 06:08 pm:

Thanks, John C.

I feel like I have just experienced a segment on "The Late Show with David Letterman" called "Know Your Fifth Beatles".

Regards,
Ken

By Steve LItos (209.100.86.4) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 06:09 pm:

The Beatle's drummers on EMI recordings:
Love Me Do - Andy White

Back In The USSR, Dear Prudence - Paul McCartney -Ringo had quit the band for a couple of days during the White Album.

Martha My Dear, Wild Honey Pie - "The Beatles Sessions" states that it is uncertain if any other Beatle besides Paul are playing on these recordings. They could be Paul as they are not very complex.

Ballad Of John & Yoko - Paul - Only Paul & John were around to record this song so they dubbed many of the instruments after the basic recording of drums & guitar.

ALL OF THE OTHERS - RINGO!

David - Thanks for the info on the reverb guy! That guy literally made Lennon's ska-like guitar break on "I Call Your Name" sound just like a theater organ! It took the CD release of Past Masters to figure out that it wasn't an organ! What a butcher!

By DavidS91 (198.81.26.103) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 06:31 pm:

Dave Dexter, Jr. (who gets a "production assistance" credit on the "Something New" album and possibly others) was not a friend of the Beatles legacy.

According to Bruce Spizer's excellent books about the Beatles Releases on Capitol records, Alan Livingston (the President of Capitol) used to rely on Dave Dexter to tell him which of the releases from Parlophone in England should also be picked up by Capitol and released in the US. Dave Dexter repeatedly turned the Beatles down for release on Capitol, which is why their early releases were on independent labels like VJ and Swan.

Then, when the Beatles finally got onto Capitol records, this guy decided that he'd "improve" on their recordings before they were worthy of US release. That's why there was additional echo and reverb put on the early releases.

And last, after John Lennon was killed and there was all of the outpouring of tributes for this great man, Dave Dexter Jr. wrote a letter to Billboard, saying that Lennon could also be "difficult." He specifically sited Lennon's disapproval and complaining about the "improvements" he made to the US releases!

Unbelievable...

By Larry (216.23.183.2) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 06:41 pm:

I'd heard of Dave Dexter's "legacy". Sounds like a crass kiss ass with bad ears and a jealous disposition.

Everything I'd ever heard of the Beatles opinion of Capitols decision to "uplift" the original mixes, was understandably negative.

Water under the bridge. In spite of Capitol and David Dexter, The Beatles are The Greatest and will always be The Greatest.

Happy St. Paddy's Sir Paul

By dvdmike (68.72.172.208) on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 09:01 pm:

Session drummer Andy White played on the original version of "Love Me Do" and on "P.S. I Love You" which were recorded on September 4, 1962 in studio #2 at EMI Studios on Abbey Road in London. Ringo played tambourine on the original version. "Love Me Do" was recut on September 11, this time with Ringo on drums. Original Beatles drummer Pete Best was fired from the group because he wasn't a particularly good drummer. Ringo was better, but still not all that great.

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.101) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 10:46 am:

If only they had a better drummer, imagine how successful The Beatles could have been.

I thought Ringo's drumming was pretty darn good. He had a metronome in his head which allowed all kinds of studio trickery and tape splicing which lended itself to the various production experiments that made the Beatles records interesting.

Regards,
Ken

By dvdmike (65.208.234.61) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 11:40 am:

I'll say this much. Ringo could keep a steady beat, he had a decent sense of time keeping, which Pete Best sorely lacked.

By john c (12.2.233.107) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 01:06 pm:

I think he was more than that. Check out Rain, Tommorow Never Knows, the roll and crash of Day Tripper, the pick up and energy of She Loves You. He's what I remember most vividly from Ed Sullivan, hair flying and having a great time. He was an integral part of the Beatles.

By mhc (172.163.168.128) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 01:15 pm:

Check out some of The Beatles '63-'64 concert appearances and you'll see that they owe a lot of their early fame to Ringo. Especially, dig their first US concert in Wash., DC, which is readily available on video. Ringo is kicking the band in the ass every second; his beat is like a freight train coming at you.

By DavidS91 (198.81.26.103) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 01:17 pm:

Plus, Ringo was PART of the Beatles. As such, he was there through the entire process. The Beatles were such an experimental band, that a session drummer could never have understood what the band wanted as clearly as Ringo.

I'm not a musician, so I don't know the ins and outs of what makes a good drummer, a great drummer, and an extraordinary drummer. But I do know that whatever Ringo's strengths as a drummer might have been for random sessions, as a full member of the Beatles he was extraordinary.

By Larry (69.3.132.116) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 01:31 pm:

You guys hip to this?
The Four Complete Historic Ed Sullivan Shows
http://www.edsullivan.com/

*it say's limited time only. This site/sale has been up for several months now.

By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 02:17 pm:

MHC - So true...the Washington DC concert kicks ass. I think the song was "I Saw Her Standing There" that Ringo REALLY bangs on the drums during the solo. I think APPLE should release a DVD set of the BEATLES COMPLETE CONCERTS of which good footage is available. I'd buy it.

Ringo may not have been a technically great drummer like Bernard Purdie, but that's not all that important in a group situation. He was the best self-taught drummer (Just like the other 3 Beatles) in Liverpool & he fit in well with the band. Plus...he has quite a bit of that mysterious quality known as "IT". I think Gerry Marsden (of Gerry & The Pacemakers) once offered him a spot in the band as a bass player because he had "IT".

By drums (155.91.6.72) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 04:40 pm:

Hi all,

It is funny that this came up, because a few years ago, Modern Drummer magazine sponsered a "drum" clinic/concert! They still do this annually!

Bernard Purdie was a guest drummer on this particular concert, and HE brought up the "I originally played on certain Beatle's tracks" diatribe!

What an uproar he caused! I don't think that he will ever be invited to another festival again! Anyway, in subsequent MD magazines following the festival, thousands of other drummers ripped Bernard a new one for telling such unbelievable stories!

I believe that Ringo IS a technically proficient drummer and I say that because:

1. He LISTENED to what the other people where doing and adapted his playing style
2. He didnt OVERPLAY!

If you can do those 2 things, then I believe you will be as successful as he is now!!

You gotta admit, he was never replaced!

Daren Metz
Sony Music/Luka Digital Systems, Inc.
www.noblecooley.com

By CEASAR THE TYMES (141.151.1.114) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 06:57 pm:

HI ALL:
SPEAKING ABOUT BERNARD PURDIE.
HE PLAYED DRUMS ON A LOT OF OUR SESSIONS WHEN WE WERE WITH R.C.A. COLUMBIA.HE WAS ONE OF THE BEST.
WE FIRST MEET HIM AT THE APPOLO THEATRE,HE WAS IN THE HOUSE BAND.AFTER THAT HE WAS ON JUST ABOUT ALL OF OUR SESSIONS.
HE WOULD PLAY THE SONG READING THE CHART,THEN HE WOULD PUT THE CHARTS DOWN AND PLAY THE SAME SONG IN HIS GROOVE.HE WAS A MASTER,AND IT WAS A PLEASURE MEETING HIM.
HE WOULD PUT UP A SIGN AT THE SESSIONS IN FRONT OF HIS DRUMS THAT READ
BERNARD HIT MAKER PURDIE
CEASAR THE TYMES

By FrankM (81.152.61.29) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 07:24 pm:

I saw Bernard Purdie with Rueben Wilson and Grant Green Jr. a few years ago and he's still a great drummer. But he ain't no Ringo;)
Apologies for mixing up Jimmy Nichol (Australian tour) and Andy white (Love Me Do)

By GOAT (64.228.144.174) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 07:26 pm:

"Back In The USSR, Dear Prudence - Paul McCartney -Ringo had quit the band for a couple of days during the White Album."

According to the books I have. Ringo never really quit the band. He left on a vacation as George was up to his tricks with John, and whining about tours, records, what-have-you. Paul never got the Maharishi thing and didn't really care about it. So Ringo left. But never really left the band.

The first person to actually leave The Beatles was George, but he was coaxed back. The official was actually John leaving and Paul the first to annouce it publicly (a media stunt for his new solo album).

Please correct me if I'm wrong on these assertions. This is according to the Official Quiz book of The Beatles. The Anthology Book as well.

By Lynn Bruce (68.41.110.49) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 07:40 pm:

I agree with what DRUMS said about Ringos ability.
Sometimes people mistake how much, how technical and how fast a drummer is , thinking that he or she is the better drummer. Maybe for another type of music.

The type of music they were playing,Ringo played just right ,in the pocket, solid back beat and good fills but not a drum solo through the whole song.

A drummers job is to compliment and drive the other musicians not show boat himself.

A drummer gets his chance to show his chops on a featured drum solo.

By LTLFTC (67.167.135.143) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 08:14 pm:

Goat; According to the book about the making of the 'White Album', Ringo did temporarily quit the band, the last straw evidently being McCartney's criticism of Ringo's drumming on "Back in the USSR", which McCartney subsequently played.

Steve K

By GOAT (64.228.144.74) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 08:21 pm:

WOW! I never knew that. Thank you. Could it have been the drug abuse? As Ringo was getting heavy into more and more drugs.

I do know that The Beatles NEVER played stoned. They experimented stoned at John or Pauls house, but in the studio they were always right on. I think they may have had cokes and rum but that was the extent of it.

Thanks again for the info.

By Sudi Kamau (172.165.189.98) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 09:33 pm:

I know that Bernard Purdie is a more than competent drummer. He's really a drummer of the type suggested above, who lays down a groove (a nasty groove at that) without overplaying. The persnickety Walter Becker and Donald Fagen had Purdie appear along side the likes of Jim Keltner and Steve Gadd on the Aja album for a reason. Ringo? I've never seen anything to suggest that he's more than a pedestrian drummer. It's his persona that made him stand out.

Nevertheless, the thing about Purdie being paid $50,000 or something like that by Brian Epstein to over-dub Ringo's parts and keep quiet about it - unbeknownst to George Martin even - is pretty shaky. He probably should have kept that to himself even in the unlikely event that it's true. He's done himself more harm than good.

By Larry (69.3.132.5) on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 10:33 pm:

Lynn, MHC, Guys.

Right on with your Ringo comments. He had impeccable meter and the right feel and big ears to support THE SONG. He knew his role. It's almost become old-fashioned to see an instrumentalist who knows his role. So many players now are about flash and fills and showboat and when they phuck-up you realize how WRONG they are. Ego and collaboration don't mix well.

I occassionally get caught playing in a live jam with drummers who forget their role. As a bassist it's miserable. To watch a guy show some flash and skip a bit, give a hiccup. The worst!

I so respect players who haven't forgotten the rules, the laws of the 'older generation'.

By Dayo (81.134.214.146) on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 02:32 am:

How good was Ringo? This debate has been going on in since 1963!

My Brother in Law was a fine jazz drummer. He always said Ringo was the most under rated drummer in pop. Good enough for me.

By Livonia Ken (136.1.1.154) on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 09:52 am:

One of my favorite prototypical Ringo parts is on "Hello Goodbye". He plays the drums on each verse completely differently, each one slightly more elaborate. He keeps it from getting monotonous, and yet never sounds like he's doing anything but serving the song.

And while I am 100% sure that Purdie did not play on any of the Capitol Beatles tracks, how can you help but respect the guy who played on Aretha's "Rock Steady" and a gazillion other great tracks.

Regards,
Ken

By Garo (206.245.141.3) on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 03:30 pm:

I believe Andy White is also playing drums on Please Please Me.
Hal Blaine is on John Lennon's Rock n' Roll album..probably at Phil Spector's request.

By Steve Litos (209.100.86.4) on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 03:01 pm:

Garo - Andy White did a couple of takes of "Please Please Me", but not the hit single version. Someone located the reel of tape of Andy on Please Please Me & it appears on the Anthology 1 CD.