Lynda, Jean and Mary

[captainjames]

I was always curious about this gown with the Supremes. It was the first time that I noticed that Jean was being singled out. Does anyone know the story behind this gown ?

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[topdiva1]

Maybe these gowns where made for Diana Ross and The Supremes and never worn. Perhaps by the time The Supremes became Jean, Mary, and Lynda - Motown was not spending a ton of money on The Supremes stage gowns and just dug these warehoused gowns out.

But that is just my guess - not based in any fact at all. Other than I cannot see Mary Wilson having Jean Terrel stand out in any way other than vocally. Was not the group in internal battles by then?

Of course this is just me - I might be wrong.

[bradsupremes]

These were made for Jean, Mary and Cindy, but are mostly known for being worn by Jean, Mary and Lynda. Scherrie, Mary and Cindy also wore these shortly after Scherrie joined the group.

[thommg]

These dresses were used during the tour Mary, Jean & Lynda did with The temptations. I saw it at Shady Grove Music Fair in Maryland but I can't remember the year. The souvenier program consisted of a color 8x10 picture of The Temptations and a black & white 8x10 of The Supremes [[in these gowns). I still have a feather from Jean's dress with the photos.

[captainjames]

These were made for Jean, Mary and Cindy, but are mostly known for being worn by Jean, Mary and Lynda. Scherrie, Mary and Cindy also wore these shortly after Scherrie joined the group.

Ok I didn't know they were initially made for Jean, Mary and Cindy but that still doesn't explain why Jean's gown was different.

[rod_rick]

When Mary, Cindy & Scherrie wore them, who wore Jean's?

[bradsupremes]

Scherrie wore Jean's gown.

[blueskies]

When Mary, Cindy & Scherrie wore them, who wore Jean's?

Good point. I think those jackets came off and the gowns themselves looked alike. Maybe that's how they did it when Jean left? Wasn't Scherrie the lead when she came in? I think I've only seen pics of Jean, Mary and Lynda in these gowns.

[bradsupremes]

Here is a picture of Scherrie, Mary and Cindy wearing the gowns. There is another picture of them without the jackets/coats.
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[blueskies]

Here is a picture of Scherrie, Mary and Cindy wearing the gowns. There is another picture of them without the jackets/coats.
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Thanks for posting, Brad. I had never seen this pic.

[rod_rick]

Jeans was purple while the other two were pink or lavender.

[topdiva1]

Here is a picture of Scherrie, Mary and Cindy wearing the gowns. There is another picture of them without the jackets/coats.
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Nice picture - not the best looking gown - too much going on with these - they look cheap.

[captainjames]

It wasn't just the jacket, the bra part was purple on Jean's as well while Lynda, Cindy and Mary's was pink.

[captainjames]

and in the picture above it looks like Mary switch to one with the purple/blue bra.

[sup_fan]

no they occasionally wore gowns with 1 girl singled out. MJC reused the sliver and bronze gowns from the Hollywood palace show. Jeans had the silver top that "melts" into bronze below while Mary and Cindy's are bronze tops that melt into silver below

the Pink Lollipop pantsuits from Glen Campbell also came with an [[ugly) patchwork coat. Jean would sometimes wear it while the other 2 didn't. same with the brown sequin pantsuit from Mike Douglas. has a feather wrap that sometimes jean would only wear

[sup_fan]

i did think it was odd when MJC reused the "Fireworks" pantsuits - the ones from No Matter What Sign You Are. Mary took Diana's green one while Cindy and Jean used the 2 blue ones. i know they were new and certainly expensive but singling mary out on stage seemed odd. unless it was done during her solo numbers

[topdiva1]

Many of the new gowns after Diana left where not tthe best in design or color choice - frankly much of them looked cheap, and not great designs at all. The investment and the design of the gowns was not on the level it had once been. The look of The Supremes changed but not always for the best or with the times.

They set no new trends in fashion as they once did - the stage wear became second rate - I think the pictures of some of these gowns speak loudly to that fact.

[jonc]

Many of the new gowns after Diana left where not tthe best in design or color choice - frankly much of them looked cheap, and not great designs at all. The investment and the design of the gowns was not on the level it had once been. The look of The Supremes changed but not always for the best or with the times.

They set no new trends in fashion as they once did - the stage wear became second rate - I think the pictures of some of these gowns speak loudly to that fact.

You must have seen all those gowns in person when you were hanging out with the Supremes Tony.

How cool is that?

[jillfoster]

Many of the new gowns after Diana left where not tthe best in design or color choice - frankly much of them looked cheap, and not great designs at all. The investment and the design of the gowns was not on the level it had once been. The look of The Supremes changed but not always for the best or with the times.

They set no new trends in fashion as they once did - the stage wear became second rate - I think the pictures of some of these gowns speak loudly to that fact.

Which ones did you feel looked cheap? I don't think any of them looked cheap, there was just more pantsuits than anything, which was the trend at the time. Women's liberation, you know, more pants, less dresses. Also, let's keep in mind that as the 70's went on, styles became much more relaxed as the "natural look" took hold, no more maidenform torpedo bras and bouffant hair for women, straight, ironed hair, peasant blouses... and then when you get into 74/75 there was those NECK SCARVES EVERYWHERE.

[topdiva1]

I just felt - that while Diana Ross set and maintained styles - The Supremes became trendy in an unflattering way. They still looked good - just not as great as they had. True styles had evovled and tastes had changed but The Supremes no longer set the tone.

[smark21]

I just felt - that while Diana Ross set and maintained styles - The Supremes became trendy in an unflattering way. They still looked good - just not as great as they had. True styles had evovled and tastes had changed but The Supremes no longer set the tone.

But did the Supremes really set the tone in the late 60's with their elaborate, glitzy gowns and the wigs? They looked a lot older than their actual ages and they were often accused of being sell outs and forgetting they were black.

[jillfoster]

But did the Supremes really set the tone in the late 60's with their elaborate, glitzy gowns and the wigs? They looked a lot older than their actual ages and they were often accused of being sell outs and forgetting they were black.

Exactly, and people act like the Supremes were the first black women to put on an elegant evening gown, and nothing could be further from the truth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGkV6UFB9wk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMgRIZ27fOk&feature=related

[luke]

Good Points. I think the mass success of the Supremes overshadowed others and they were doing rock and roll yet in a different way--more mainstream I guess. Which makes me think they dont really get credit for bringing rock and roll more to the masses. Other women sang more jazzy, pure pop stuff. The Surpemes were more like female Beatles so to speak.

[sup_fan]

i think that the girls still has a high quality look post- Ross. I also think many of the outfits post-ross were ghastly! lol but i don't think they looked cheap. like the "cotton candy" outfit the girls wore on soul train to sing Early Morning Love and all. it's that 1-shoulder gown with the bell bottom pants underneath. horrid but i will at least say it doesn't look cheap.

i do have to say that the red sequin gowns that they got when Scherrie joined did look cheap. these were the ones MSC wore on merv Griffin. and then MSS wore on that taping of the Montreaux Jazz festival. when compared to the red sequin gown DMF wore on r&h special and also on Hollywood Palace singing You Keep Me Hangin On, it's a far cry. those 60s outfits were beyond crammed full of sequins. the 70s version looks like red sequin material you could have picked up on a bolt at Calico Corner

[topdiva1]

Correct - calico corners u While the early Supreme and Diana Ross and the SUpremes gowns were custom hand sewn single sequins or bugle beads the latter gowns where "glitter by the yard". The gowns was one part of the look that helped make them famous - I would say The Supremes "look" was at least 50 per cent of it. Many people tuned in first to see what they would wear, and second how they looked [[ make up, wigs) and last what they sang - take all of that blend it together on a highly styled level and you have Diana Ross and The Supremes.

[jillfoster]

Correct - calico corners u While the early Supreme and Diana Ross and the SUpremes gowns were custom hand sewn single sequins or bugle beads the latter gowns where "glitter by the yard". The gowns was one part of the look that helped make them famous - I would say The Supremes "look" was at least 50 per cent of it. Many people tuned in first to see what they would wear, and second how they looked [[ make up, wigs) and last what they sang - take all of that blend it together on a highly styled level and you have Diana Ross and The Supremes.

I disagree.... only shallow gay men tuned in to see what they would wear, and what their hair looked like. Everyone else tuned in to hear the song and see a good stage performance. I DO agree about the red sequin gowns from the 70's. Those did look cheap. But that was an exception, and not the rule. These two certainly look great:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5Zyr0ZjNNg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRIZgQrcQHI

[bradsupremes]

I thought I would post pictures of the gowns I saw from Mary's collection when I worked with them over the summer. It will give a better idea of what we do and don't have. These gowns were what were in storage. The other gowns are currently on display in Mary's exhibit.

1.) Pink Bows - the only set of gowns from DMF era that I came across
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2.) "Black Swirl" – One is currently on display. The other two were in storage.
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3.) "TCB Green Swirl" - One is currently on display. The other two were in storage.
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4.) “Sullivan’s Delight” – One is currently on display. The other two were in storage.
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5.) "Orange Freeze” - One is currently on display. The other two were in storage. One of the yellow shirts had "Diane" marked on the tag.
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5.) "Multi-Color Halters" - One is currently on display. The other two were in storage.
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6.) "Red Satin Twilight" - These were a dark, yet bright deep red color. They were never on display in any of the exhibits.
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7.) "Chocolate Feathers" - These were brown, but almost looked like a dark green.
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8.) "Red Hot Jumpsuit" - Only Mary's jumpsuit survives
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9.) "Bugle Beads" - Only saw 1 of these and it had the sleeves removed.
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10.) "Tigeress Gowns" - These had detachable sleeves
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11.) "Gold & White Sequins" - Cindy's gown is on display. The other two gowns and feather coats were in storage.
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12.) "Sunburst" - Scherrie's yellow and Mary's white gowns were in storage. Cindy's orange was on display
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13.) "Red Embers"
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14.) "Slinky Sexy Dress" - These were in horrible condition. Not fit for display. They are in desperate need of repair.
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15.) "Zebra Print Gowns"
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16.) "Opera Coats"
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17.) "Jesus Robes"
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18.) “Cotton Candy”
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19.) “Crème de-Menthe” – Four in the set. The three worn by Scherrie, Mary and Cindy are on display. The fourth was Mary’s strapless gown before her pregnancy which was in storage.
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20.) “Blue Icicle Fringe” – Worn on 'Udo Live 77.' One is on display. The other two were in storage.
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21.) "Outer-Space" - The collars were multi-colored stripes [[similar to candy canes in pattern) with sequins and beads. They also had silver, blue and pink shiny cloth as the dress.
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No pictures for:
22.) Hair Folly – One giant big gown with silver, metallic sequins with three holes to slip over their heads with orange, yellow and red sequined flames on the sides. Used as a parody of “White Boys” from HAIR. Used only once in Vegas.

23.) Black & Sequined Tuxedos – These were used in the Mary, Scherrie and Susaye era. I’ve seen pictures of them, but I can’t seem to locate any.


There were also lots of belts, gloves, feathered fans, hats, several wigs and lots of shoes with names still taped inside. [[Saw a lot of Jean's, Cindy's, Mary's, and Lynda's. I did see one pair that belonged to Diana.)

[jillfoster]

Brad, what a great post. It shows that in fact, there were many great gowns from the 70's. I hope that Mary can either display or least photograph the "Red satin twilight", because as far as I know, no color pictures of that one are known to exist. And you know something... Cotton Candy DOESN'T LOOK BAD AT ALL when you lose the pants underneath! Don't you all agree?

[jobeterob]

I'm really bad at dresses; I didn't care much about what they wore and was there for the music.

From what I see, there was som kind of downturn in what they were wearing in the 70's; but it might have been the 70's and a certain dowdy look that was prevalent in the 70's; some of these pictures look pretty good; buth things like cotton candy and the opera coats look [[sorry my descriptions are bad) but they look dowdy, weak, crappy; and the sunburst and the tigress gowns too.

But I bet it was just the 70's disco look that now looks so out of date.

[sup_fan]

thanks brad - always enjoy hearing about your tales from "wardrobe" lol any info on Sullivan's Delight? i remember it too from the exhibit and i thought the sign said something about how they tested it on a rehearsal for sullivan but then used a different outfit for the performance. i'm guessing this was a DRATS area gown, not Flo. anyone know if it was ever worn elsewhere?

and red twilight - i've also only seen that one pic. frankly that one looks like a giant tent on the girls. i realize they're fanning out the material to show off the pattern but goodness. there's a pic of MJL at the Coconut Grove wearing some bulky puffy floral pattern dress. Randy said it was made for opening night and then never worn again. understandably! lol

seems a bit of a waste to craft some of these gowns and then never use again. understand the disaster of the "uni-gown" from vegas and why it wasn't worn again. but with some of these others, you'd think between the girls, the designers and the wardrobe mistresses someone would have some sort of clue as to say "hey - no that one won't work, let's adjust it"

[daviddh]

Brad, the book that came out along with the exhibit, does this book have the photos of the gowns?? never understood what this book was about?,so i didnt buy it. but now, maybe. thanks for your input. i did hear that some gowns were lost in a fire but then i heard that was a rumour.????do u know for sure what the deal was. i saw a set in vegas that were used on the cover of Funny Girl, i think they were brown with with stripes.thanks

[sup_fan]

there definitely was a fire in early 74, shortly after Scherrie joined. the exact gowns lost are still a bit in question but looks like the list includes the [[1) Chandelier gowns from "Reflections" on Tennesse Ernie Ford, [[2) the black beaded gowns from the back of Right on, [[3) the gold sequin gowns from the front of right on, [[4) the gold indian maiden gowns from GIT, [[5) the gold dolman sleeve gowns from Someday on Ed Sullivan, [[6) the red fireball gowns from Scherrie's debut on Sonny and Cher [[however these were only damaged and were repaired), [[7) the bronze and white sequin gowns [[many publicity pics of MSC in these) again damaged and the repaired [[8) the silver batwing pantsuits from Sullivan No Matter What Sign You Are

I also wonder if the short white gowns from MJC in Central Park were lost in the fire. there's a very early pic of MSC in them and then they're never seen of again

I've also heard that the tropical lilac gowns and the TCB butterfly gowns were damaged in the fire but repaired. but not sure about that

the white "snowstorm" poncho outfits worn by MJC on Andy Williams are thought to be the set stolen from a designer. shortly after Lynda joined the group [[MLC wore these pantsuits in Hawaii) Mary mentioned in Supreme Faith about the theft. guessing here that these were the ones stolen

there's also a rumor that in the 60s, there was a fire at a warehouse that housed many motown costumes and clothing. supposedly many of the earlier Flo outfits were lost there. but that's just a rumor

[nomis]

thanks for all the photos Brad YOU are supreme! Im serious here - Why dont you write a book? it would be wonderful to have your thoughts and recollections in a nice coffee book I think you should put together a proposal and approach publishing houses,I own a bookshop - you would get rejections but someone would pick it up I assure you especially if you market it from the fashion angle I think an art company like Taschen would jump at a chance to publish your work...

[bradsupremes]

Here is more information on gowns that are not in Mary's collection, but do exist.

"Shimmering Sweethearts" - They are either owned by the Motown Museum or Universal Music Group. They were on display at the Henry Ford Museum in the 1990's
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"Blue Midnight" - They are either owned by the Motown Museum or Universal Music Group. They were on display at the Henry Ford Museum in the 1990's.
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"Black & White Striped" - These were on display at the Hard Rock in Las Vegas.
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"Pink Rainbow Caftans" - These are on display at the Hard Rock in Singapore.
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"Silver Peacocks" - These are on display at the Motown Museum.
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"Blue Dreams" - These are on display at the Motown Museum.
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"Green Sequins" - These were the same design as "Blue Midnight," but with green sequins instead of blue. These were on display at the Henry Ford Museum in the 1990's. They are either owned by the Motown Museum or Universal Music Group. I've seen a picture of them wearing them, but I cannot seem to find the color picture. These might be them.
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This set was just found recently and given to Mary, but I did not see in the boxes of gowns. They were worn on the Red Skelton Show.
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As for Sullivan's Delight, from what I heard they only wore those gowns a few times. I think the rehearsal that they wore them for was for their performance of "In And Out Of Love" since it matches the set design in the background.

[nomis]

Again your attention to detail is a marketable commodity,I sell alot of fashion books and you certainly deserve to have your work published,Without a doubt ALL the Supremes would love to see a book like this published -not another Diane-stole-the-hairspray-on-the -bus tome,But a book purely on the clothes..Brad if you approached Bob Mackie Im sure he would agree to do you a foreward..I can even see Beyonce turning up to the book launch party...

[daviddh]

diana has said she has many of the ealier gowns from the 60s.

[sup_fan]

brad - i didn't know there was a green set of sequin gowns similar to blue midnight. the pic you've included i believe is of the silver sequins from You Can't Hurry Love on Sullivan. it would make sense that there'd be another color however haven't ever seen anythign of it.

The gowns from the cover of Sing HDH - were those really gold? I've seen a pic of DMF on some tv set wearing them but it looks like it was colorized.

And then there's a set of gowns in Randy's first Diana book. it was taken at the Flamingo around the time Flo left. there are 2 pics and it looks like it was some sort of a diamond pattern. and the top is sorta a poncho/batwing style. the pics are only of Diana [[although Mary's hand is just in one of the frames. the ending pose to Rockabye Your Baby)

[danman869]

I thought the "green gowns" with the halter neck and fish scale patterned sequins [[that Brad says are identical to "Blue Midnight"--the gowns worn by DMF on "The Andy Williams Show" to sing "Love Is Here" and "Let There Be Love") were the gowns DMF wore on Ed Sullivan when they sang "You Can't Hurry Love" and the "Symphony" Medley? [[I also thought they were light/powder blue rather than green--or silver?)

[bradsupremes]

The ones they did wear on Ed Sullivan were silver/blue/white color. I have to wonder if they made three of the same design [[Blue Midnight, green and silver/blue).

[luke]

Wow great Brad--never even saw that pic with Mary sitting in front!!

[luke]

No shallow heterosexuals?

[topdiva1]

Where are photos of Flo Ballard in any Supremes gown that she looked fat in???- NONE AT ALL - this is just another urban Motown lie/legend.

Flo was never fat while in the Supremes - all these wonderful pics posted prove that.

[sup_fan]

i'm sure this'll spark a wild debate

No, i do not believe that while in the group Flo was ever obese. However, she definitely did gain quite a bit of weight in the group. Sure some of it was just because they were young girls and still growing and developing. hell they were only 16 or so when they signed. but Flo's change really didn't come about until 1966 or so. and i think the issue really wasn't the weight gain. all of the girls [[except probably di) yo-yo'd up and down and had some times when they were bigger than they might want to be. look at Cindy in TCB - those pink chevron gowns during the Porgy and Bess clip. she's considerably larger than Diana. whereas look at her in the excessively tight multi color halter gown much slimmer.

so i don't think it was the actual weight that was Flo's undoing. it was everything wrapped around it. the reason she gained it was she was drinking too much, rebelling, didn't care. it wasn't just a matter of her getting heavier it was the matter that she refused to carry her role in the group. she was threatening to really damage the image and personal of the group and they were just breaking into the Vegas level of shows.

what might have happened if she didn't get fired after that vegas show? odds are the situation would have continued to deteriorate. what would have happened if the angst and dissent really started to get leaked to the public? would they have made it to playing at the Waldorf? would they have gotten 2 tv specials? would it have fallen apart? who knows but that wasn't a gamble gordy was willing to take

check out these 2 pics. one is from hullabaloo doing Back in my Arms Again, late spring 65. the other is about 2 years later during Flo's final shows. you can definitely see the physical difference

[topdiva1]

These are two great pictures - about eighteen months apart - but I do not see a major difference in the appearance and weight of the girls. What I do see may be from the strain, and presuree on all of the girls to be more than perfect.

If Flo was under pressure and acting out - it surely affected everyone- and the experience I am sure was not pleasant for any of the girls. Her weight looks fine - and the performance photo looks Supreme.

[captainjames]

Sup_Fan
After Flo left the group I remember her speaking about gaining weight but it was in a Jet Magazine. It was during this time she was talking about getting back n shape to start singing again. Flo had gained some weight while in the group as you suggested and Diana had got thinner. Whether it was drinking or food or the lack of it, I am sure the pressure had its affects on each of the girls.

As far as the other things you mentioned and how her behavior had and would continue to affect the group, it took me a long time to come to the realization of that. However, I know now it’s true.

[marv2]

Florence did not "leave", she was fired!

Florence was never "fat" while she was in the Supremes.

[sup_fan]

right - i'm not saying Flo was gigantic. in a few of the books the authors state she was around a 12, which isn't excessively large at all. however every single bio on the group [[minus Miss Turner's) comments on Flo gaining weight so i think we can assume that she did. granted, i wasn't there with a tape measure to monitor her waistline lol. and while 12 might not be huge to some, maybe compared to what she was when they first hit in 64 it is a considerable increase. plus standing next to anorexic diana anyone would look bigger.

as i said, she wasn't firely simply because she was "fat." she was fired because her behavior and attitude could have potentially derailed the group just before they were going to break into the super group.

Berry was ALWAYS devoted to Diana and not the Supremes. he was going to make absolutely certain that Diana's career trajectory wasn't interrupted. he didn't think it was time for her to go solo in early 67. they needed more time within the Supremes unit to make things happen. he knew he wanted to rebill the group as DRATS and from there they could build into bigger and better things. but if flo was going to continue to be a nightmare, acting out within the group, her emotional ups and downs, her increasingly erratic behavior, missing shows at last minute, missing recording sessions, etc it could very well undermine the entire reputation of the group and therefore undermine Di's reputation. not to mention the excessive stress everyone was under. even in happy situations it's wildly stressful. so flo's behavior was just adding unnecessary strain to everyone

[marv2]

i'm sure this'll spark a wild debate

No, i do not believe that while in the group Flo was ever obese. However, she definitely did gain quite a bit of weight in the group. Sure some of it was just because they were young girls and still growing and developing. hell they were only 16 or so when they signed. but Flo's change really didn't come about until 1966 or so. and i think the issue really wasn't the weight gain. all of the girls [[except probably di) yo-yo'd up and down and had some times when they were bigger than they might want to be. look at Cindy in TCB - those pink chevron gowns during the Porgy and Bess clip. she's considerably larger than Diana. whereas look at her in the excessively tight multi color halter gown much slimmer.

so i don't think it was the actual weight that was Flo's undoing. it was everything wrapped around it. the reason she gained it was she was drinking too much, rebelling, didn't care. it wasn't just a matter of her getting heavier it was the matter that she refused to carry her role in the group. she was threatening to really damage the image and personal of the group and they were just breaking into the Vegas level of shows.

what might have happened if she didn't get fired after that vegas show? odds are the situation would have continued to deteriorate. what would have happened if the angst and dissent really started to get leaked to the public? would they have made it to playing at the Waldorf? would they have gotten 2 tv specials? would it have fallen apart? who knows but that wasn't a gamble gordy was willing to take

check out these 2 pics. one is from hullabaloo doing Back in my Arms Again, late spring 65. the other is about 2 years later during Flo's final shows. you can definitely see the physical difference

I wonder what would have happened had they been fair and treated her right. Got her SOME help with her drinking, etc.?

I never heard stories of Florence drinking heavily after she was fired from the Supremes. There was no cirrohsis, etc found.

[marv2]

right - i'm not saying Flo was gigantic. in a few of the books the authors state she was around a 12, which isn't excessively large at all. however every single bio on the group [[minus Miss Turner's) comments on Flo gaining weight so i think we can assume that she did. granted, i wasn't there with a tape measure to monitor her waistline lol. and while 12 might not be huge to some, maybe compared to what she was when they first hit in 64 it is a considerable increase. plus standing next to anorexic diana anyone would look bigger.

as i said, she wasn't firely simply because she was "fat." she was fired because her behavior and attitude could have potentially derailed the group just before they were going to break into the super group.

Berry was ALWAYS devoted to Diana and not the Supremes. he was going to make absolutely certain that Diana's career trajectory wasn't interrupted. he didn't think it was time for her to go solo in early 67. they needed more time within the Supremes unit to make things happen. he knew he wanted to rebill the group as DRATS and from there they could build into bigger and better things. but if flo was going to continue to be a nightmare, acting out within the group, her emotional ups and downs, her increasingly erratic behavior, missing shows at last minute, missing recording sessions, etc it could very well undermine the entire reputation of the group and therefore undermine Di's reputation. not to mention the excessive stress everyone was under. even in happy situations it's wildly stressful. so flo's behavior was just adding unnecessary strain to everyone



Any idea of what caused that behavior? I really do believe they were already "the Super Group" by 1967 after having 10 number one records with Florence in the group. I think in part of your post you partially answer my question without realizing it. The Supremes were a group and Berry was only devoted to Diane and not the group as you put it and I believe you are right.

[luke]

Every "independent" source I have seen denied Flo looked fat at their final shows in Vegas. And their reviews were glowing!! None mentioned the ridiculous" Flo put her tummy" out episode. How slowly the Motown myths die!

[captainjames]

Every "independent" source I have seen denied Flo looked fat at their final shows in Vegas. And their reviews were glowing!! None mentioned the ridiculous" Flo put her tummy" out episode. How slowly the Motown myths die!

Actually, I believe Flo has been recorded in Peter's book as this incident really happening.

[nomis]

This a complex issue,It wasnt one event but a chain of events some of them are -

Flo challenging Berry over the Andantes being used on "The Happening",Berry backed down and wiped their vocals
The drink throwing incident at 20 grand
Many of the dresses not being able to be used because of Flos weight gain
The constant touring and apperances - all three were running on empty
Diana basically had annorexia,Which only made Flo look bigger
The girls not talking to each other about issues,just barking at each other in between gigs
They were all going out and partying after shows -They were Supremes there was always a buffet and drink being offered.
Dating Tommy and drinking,Flo wouldnt back down and tow the line
Cindy popping up in the audience with a pen and notebook in hand
Berry and Diana arriving and departing together
The name change to Diana Ross and The Supremes
Although it isnt documented much there where times when Diana and Mary performed as a duo,Flo just didnt show
Discovering on national tv there were "two young ladies ready to stand in" for Flo and Mary
The fans pitting which Supreme was best and forming cliques around their favourites..
...add all these together and you get a volatile mix of trouble

[captainjames]

I would like to add one more if I could, No one [[except Flo's mother) would side with Flo. Everyone turned away and would not stand with her. I am sure this must have made her really angry.

[topdiva1]

In order for Diana Ross to move ahead - and for Mary Wilson to remain a fixture within the Supremes - Flo had to go. It was not likely her weight at all - and you all know that - it was her mouth and her crusade for fairness. Both Diana and Mary just watched her get fired, and some reports say with glee. Neither one of them from that day to this gave a true damn about Flo Ballard. But to be a real woman and admit that it would not look good - and those girls are about looking good.

[nomis]

not quite true Captain,But a good point - at least Berrys sister was telling Flo he couldnt kick her out and that she should stay..and flo was weighing up that advice but decided she had no fight left in her..and one other point -
Flo was close to her family and homesick,she was always on the phone to them

[topdiva1]

not quite true Captain,But a good point - at least Berrys sister was telling Flo he couldnt kick her out and that she should stay..and flo was weighing up that advice but decided she had no fight left in her..and one other point -
Flo was close to her family and homesick,she was always on the phone to them


Still in all FLO WAS FIRED BY GORDY.

[nomis]

yes but Gordy,Motown,Diana or Mary didnt come out and say she was fired..they said she was tired and needed a break..they said she wanted to settle down and have a family...If there had been more of a stink over Flo not being in the group no more their publicity line would allow her to come back into the fold..they were very,very canny how they handled the situation...

[marv2]

I would like to add one more if I could, No one [[except Flo's mother) would side with Flo. Everyone turned away and would not stand with her. I am sure this must have made her really angry.

That is not true. There were many people that were on Florence's side. Unfortunately they were not in a position to really do anything to help her at Motown. It was Berry Gordy's company. They sided with Flo, but those that were working for the company kept silent for obvious reasons.

[marv2]

Still in all FLO WAS FIRED BY GORDY.

Yeah, I don't know why he keeps talking about "she left", like she just quit her job, up and abandoned the top group in the country! LOL!!!!!

[marv2]

This is what Diana Ross said about Florence Ballard "leaving" the group:

http://archives.cbc.ca/programs/243-15080/page/1/

[nomis]

I wonder what would have been said if he fronted at the funeral..he didnt have the nerve and Diana shouldered the blame..maybe its best he didnt show up- things could have got uglier than they already were....

[marv2]

I wonder what would have been said if he fronted at the funeral..he didnt have the nerve and Diana shouldered the blame..maybe its best he didnt show up- things could have got uglier than they already were....

Remember it was in Detroit, it could have become a criminal investigation scene! LOL!

[nomis]

Ive always wanted to know whose car got their windows smashed in? was it Dianas?

[marv2]

Ive always wanted to know whose car got their windows smashed in? was it Dianas?

It was just a big mess. All local TV news programs at that time just showed masses of people surrounding the church, people everywhere.

[nomis]

..it was nearly a riot by all accounts,Church attendants grabbing speared wooden sticks and lunging them at the crowd to keep them back..people wailing,screaming,fainting,people fighting..cheering for Diana..booing for Diana..people were cussing in that church..Flo deserved better

[marv2]

..it was nearly a riot by all accounts,Church attendants grabbing speared wooden sticks and lunging them at the crowd to keep them back..people wailing,screaming,fainting,people fighting..cheering for Diana..booing for Diana..people were cussing in that church..Flo deserved better


I don't remember any cursing in the church and I am not kidding. I don't remember who reported that but they were wrong. Only a part of the service got a little out of hand [[the first part), but the Reverand C.L. Franklin got and kept things under control through most of the very sad service. All of Motown that could be there was there that day.

[marv2]

Here is Jet Magazine's coverage of the funeral, although both the Detroit Free Press, the Detroit News and even the Michigan Chronicle did more in depth reports. WXYZ Channel 7 Detroit stayed on the scene reporting from start to finish.

http://tinyurl.com/37pnquj

[supremesouluk2]

What other gowns, if any, were made during the Jean, Mary & Lynda era of the group?

[topdiva1]

Ive always wanted to know whose car got their windows smashed in? was it Dianas?

I believe it was Miss Ross limo.

[sup_fan]

from the list of 120+ outfits i've noted for the group over the years, I only am aware of a couple that were specifically made for the MJL lineup.

the Tropical Lilac gowns on this thread

the pink, blue and red chiffon outfits worn on the Kate Smith Special

a set i've called the "coconut grove gowns" - these are some puffy, floral patterned atrocities the girls had made specifically for their tour at the Coconut Grove in LA. apparently they only wore them that 1 time

the dark purple/burgundy gowns from the short clip of the girls singing "Lean on Me" on Flip Wilson.

the white bugle bead gowns were relatively new when Lynda joined the group. I think they got those in late 71 or so. have 1 pic of MJC in them onstage at the Frontier and doing Day By Day from Godspell. since godspell opened off broadway in May 71 [[according to wikipedia) i'm assuming that by the time it hit big and the girls had a chance to incorporate a song into their act, it would have to be late 71 if not early 72. these gowns are among the most expensive of the groups history - right up there with the the Mike Travis and Bob Mackie ones from the DRATS era

[marv2]

I believe it was Miss Ross limo.


But at least she got away before they could get her. I think that was why she didn't go to the cemetary.

[captainjames]

from the list of 120+ outfits i've noted for the group over the years, I only am aware of a couple that were specifically made for the MJL lineup.

the Tropical Lilac gowns on this thread

the pink, blue and red chiffon outfits worn on the Kate Smith Special

a set i've called the "coconut grove gowns" - these are some puffy, floral patterned atrocities the girls had made specifically for their tour at the Coconut Grove in LA. apparently they only wore them that 1 time

the dark purple/burgundy gowns from the short clip of the girls singing "Lean on Me" on Flip Wilson.

the white bugle bead gowns were relatively new when Lynda joined the group. I think they got those in late 71 or so. have 1 pic of MJC in them onstage at the Frontier and doing Day By Day from Godspell. since godspell opened off broadway in May 71 [[according to wikipedia) i'm assuming that by the time it hit big and the girls had a chance to incorporate a song into their act, it would have to be late 71 if not early 72. these gowns are among the most expensive of the groups history - right up there with the the Mike Travis and Bob Mackie ones from the DRATS era

The white bugle bead outfits were da bomb !!! The Ladies looked so great in these. This is when I really first noticed how pretty Lynda was.

[topdiva1]

Jean, Mary, and Lynda - where not the best grouping - Jean too boring on stage - Lynda - too over the top - and Mary trying to counter balance the two - plus Jean and Lynda reportedly questioned Mary's appeal and vocal ability - THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG

[captainjames]

Yeah Lynda was looking good at this time.

[phyl]

Jean, Mary, and Lynda - where not the best grouping - Jean too boring on stage - Lynda - too over the top - and Mary trying to counter balance the two - plus Jean and Lynda reportedly questioned Mary's appeal and vocal ability - THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN WRONG
you got that rihgt mary wilson is the supreme supreme but i lvoe jean terrrell too but i dont like that linday lawrence she pissess me off she neeeds to start acitng right.

[marv2]

jean, mary, and lynda - where not the best grouping - jean too boring on stage - lynda - too over the top - and mary trying to counter balance the two - plus jean and lynda reportedly questioned mary's appeal and vocal ability - they have been proven wrong

Deadly Wrong! LOL!!!!

[captainjames]

In fact Lynda is the one who went to Stevie Wonder for the song "Bad Weather" if I remember correctly. It was almost like Steve was writing the song about the Supremes and Motown instead of two lovers.

[midnightman]

That was a troubled grouping from day one. That said I loved their performance of "Bad Weather" on Soul Train.

[captainjames]

Yes Jean and Lynda were definitely two head strong, talented Lead singers.

[supremesouluk2]

That was a troubled grouping from day one. That said I loved their performance of "Bad Weather" on Soul Train.

Why was it a troubled grouping from day one? Can you elaborate?

[marv2]

Yes Jean and Lynda were definitely two head strong, talented Lead singers.

Mary Wilson was also a lead singer going all the way back to the Primettes days.

[midnightman]

Why was it a troubled grouping from day one? Can you elaborate?

It didn't last long, one.
Two, Jean was tired of being in the group.
Three, Lynda was so distressed over "Bad Weather" flopping that she left.

----
Maybe that doesn't fully explain it but I think those are the primary reasons.

[midnightman]

Yes Jean and Lynda were definitely two head strong, talented Lead singers.

Lynda did a convincing lead of "Stoned Love" when she, Cindy and Mary performed in Hawaii from the audio I heard.

[sup_fan]

i think the MJL situation was a result of a lot of issues. mary and jean's relationship was starting to break down by this point. partly because of the stress and strain caused by the growing disinterest from motown but also because the 2 had quite different views of what the group should be and stand for. mary is more in the glamour girl image. jean wanted to break away from that. mary also began to realize that if the group were to continue, she had to play more of a leadership role than she had in the DRATS days. jean is also quite self-willed and so now you have an issue of two people butting heads. cindy was able to help buffer this a bit. lynda being new, wasn't able to. plus she also had her own ideas about potential direction for the group. she wanted it to be more of a three-way [[get your minds out of the gutters!! lol) where all 3 women were leading and all. mary was more interested in jean being the main lead with her as secondary and girl 3 simply as background.

MJC had tried some different material and shows during their years. when lynda joined, they were still working with some of this however steam was running out. management thought, hey we've been trying these other things and they've not really worked. perhaps we should go back to the DRATS formula and use that material and show. hence the poor lineup of material on the Live IN Japan lp. previously MJC had done more soulful and even gospel-ish material. Love train segueing into O Happy Day, etc. but TCB, Somewhere, showtune medleys, etc. that was right out of the DRATS mentality and it didn't work. and jean did NOT like it either.

so problems compounding on problems

[rod_rick]

I wonder if Cindy had stayed, would they have reverted back to that show tune TCB material

[marv2]

It didn't last long, one.
Two, Jean was tired of being in the group.
Three, Lynda was so distressed over "Bad Weather" flopping that she left.

----
Maybe that doesn't fully explain it but I think those are the primary reasons.

True, it [[that grouping) didn't last long. I don't believe that it was suppose to.

Jean says she didn't want to leave the Supremes, but she did want to leave Motown as she wasn't happy with the way things were being handled as far as the group was concerned. Years later she said [[on her DVD) that she didn't leave the Supremes, that by time she looked up, Mary had hired a new girl for the group [[Scherrie Payne). I just think she and Mary Wilson were not communicating properly at that time.

Lynda wasn't that distressed over the lack of success of "Bad Weather" [[she may have been pissed because she thought she would get to do the lead on that record seeing that her brother, Ira co-wrote it). She left when she got pregnant. She had become a problem long before she "left", hehehehe. She wasn't all that popular internally. When she threw that shoe at Richard Street, she should have been gone then! LOL!!!!

[topdiva1]

Yes Jean and Lynda were definitely two head strong, talented Lead singers.

As was Mary Wilson - Internally it appears that Lynda and Jean just teamed up and tried to run Mar and The Supremes. . What they did not take into account was - Mr.Pedro Ferrer.

[sup_fan]

frankly i don't really buy the line from Jean saying she looked up and had suddenly been replaced. Mary didn't have the authority [[at that point) to fire Jean as Jean had a contract with Motown. Now when Scherrie, the prodigal Cindy :) and Susaye joined, they had contracts with Supremes Inc, Mary's company. Not sure about Lynda. but jean was definitely signed to Motown as a Supreme. not personally sure of the length of her contract. she basically stayed for 4 years - so i'm guessing that either her contract was up in the summer of 73 and she simply didn't renew or else she asked berry/motown to be released.

Lynda did not leave at the exact moment of Jean. After the group's last performances in Aug 73 at Magic Mountain, there was some down time until the next dates which i believe were in late Oct. jean was gone and lynda was preg but still, technically, around. mary may have been considering replacing lynda but that wasn't definite just yet. Mary was in cahoots already with pedro and he was definitely influencing the situation. I believe Cindy was starting to come back into the picture and Lynda went to mary's house to talk about what's going to happen. at that time Lynda really got a chance to meet pedro and realized that he was going to be heavily involved [[true he wasn't the manager yet but he was definitely guiding mary). she immediately saw through that facade and decided she wanted nothing to do with pedro. I don't know if she just said goodbye and that's it or if she said i'll stay but no pedro - don't know.

[sup_fan]

i too wonder what might have happened had Cindy stayed in the group. certainly don't blame her for leaving but it appears it was right at a pretty critical time. they had just released Floy Joy - both the single and the lp. after Touch [[both single and lp) bombed this was a much needed redemption on the charts for them. but it seems that the air was let out of the balloon after this. Wonder if motown started to get cold feet with another personnel change and pulled back even MORE on promotional spending, landing tv spots, etc. I haven't heard of any US tv performance of Auto Sunshine. that big tour of Australia and all was also cancelled. Jean was sick and missed performances. and if troubles between Mary and Jean were becoming known outside of the group, all of this could have scared off what little promo and support the group was getting. In Mary's book, she mentioned that she had suspicions regarding Jean's illness and why she missed those Hawaii and Copa performances. clearly some significant problems here.

So had Cindy stayed, would there have maybe been a bit more promotion of the subsequent Floy Joy singles? had Automatically Sunshine been promoted and performed on tv, would that have charted a bit higher? maybe in the teens rather than the 30s? would that have kept their recording reputation intact and then Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love have done better and then maybe no Jimmy Webb project at all? I realize a lot of speculation here. I do think Auto Sun should have charted considerably higher. not a #1 single but better than barely top 40. Sweet Sweet Love is pretty good - again, not a chart topper. the live version has so much more pep and spirit. maybe they needed to funk it up a little more and speed it up

[midnightman]

You could relate it to too quick personnel changes, a changing record industry and issues in the group that led to the group falling apart slowly but surely.

[marv2]

As was Mary Wilson - Internally it appears that Lynda and Jean just teamed up and tried to run Mar and The Supremes. . What they did not take into account was - Mr.Pedro Ferrer.

and he was the HAMMER!

[midnightman]

No I think Lynda and Jean were aware about Pedro...

[marv2]

frankly i don't really buy the line from Jean saying she looked up and had suddenly been replaced. Mary didn't have the authority [[at that point) to fire Jean as Jean had a contract with Motown. Now when Scherrie, the prodigal Cindy :) and Susaye joined, they had contracts with Supremes Inc, Mary's company. Not sure about Lynda. but jean was definitely signed to Motown as a Supreme. not personally sure of the length of her contract. she basically stayed for 4 years - so i'm guessing that either her contract was up in the summer of 73 and she simply didn't renew or else she asked berry/motown to be released.

Lynda did not leave at the exact moment of Jean. After the group's last performances in Aug 73 at Magic Mountain, there was some down time until the next dates which i believe were in late Oct. jean was gone and lynda was preg but still, technically, around. mary may have been considering replacing lynda but that wasn't definite just yet. Mary was in cahoots already with pedro and he was definitely influencing the situation. I believe Cindy was starting to come back into the picture and Lynda went to mary's house to talk about what's going to happen. at that time Lynda really got a chance to meet pedro and realized that he was going to be heavily involved [[true he wasn't the manager yet but he was definitely guiding mary). she immediately saw through that facade and decided she wanted nothing to do with pedro. I don't know if she just said goodbye and that's it or if she said i'll stay but no pedro - don't know.

I think they were going to kick her ass out one way or the other . Whether she went along with the program or not, she was a goner. You see management at Motown as well as Mary's personal friends like Cholly Atkins were telling Mary "things" about Ms. Lawrence. They knew that she was a part of this plan to leave Motown and they did not like it or her one bit! It also didnt help her case that she was making demands for more money and a real share in the group. This was from a woman that was , as I understand it, was still in her probationary period. This is from a woman that had not sung on ANY of the group's hit records and should have been happy just to be there!

[marv2]

No I think Lynda and Jean were aware about Pedro...

They were aware......but they were not AWARE! They did not know who they were going to be dealing with. He was NOT a punk........hehehehehe!

[luke]

Its not a coincidence that the Supremes rebounded when Cindy rejoined. And she is all over High Energy, as she was on Floy Joy. Hmmmm, pretty clear isnt it?

[marv2]

Its not a coincidence that the Supremes rebounded when Cindy rejoined. And she is all over High Energy, as she was on Floy Joy. Hmmmm, pretty clear isnt it?

Definitely clear, clear as rain water and great point!

[jobeterob]

It wasn't much of a rebound in the end; not a Supremes style rebound; Walking barely scratched the Pop Top 40; the album did less; and the group was kaput the following year. Face it men, without Diana they were just another group - not even of the quality of Martha and the Vandellas, the Pointer Sisters, the Emotions or the Marvelettes.

[marv2]

It wasn't much of a rebound in the end; not a Supremes style rebound; Walking barely scratched the Pop Top 40; the album did less; and the group was kaput the following year. Face it men, without Diana they were just another group - not even of the quality of Martha and the Vandellas, the Pointer Sisters, the Emotions or the Marvelettes.

Do you wear a hearing aid or something. Were you around and paying attention in the 70's? They rebounded splendidly to the point where you didn't even miss the ones that were no longer in the group. Mary would say "Hi, We're The Supremes" and all the fans would accept them whoever was in the group at the time.

The Supremes post Diane were head and shoulders about ALL those groups you list and in EVERY department. I've enjoyed all of those groups but they did not exceed the Supremes in any way. This is why you have dozens of ongoing discussions on this forum about them and NONE for these other groups.

"Without Diana , they were just another group"......Then explain to me what is Diane's problem? Seems to me without Berry guiding the way that she has been without hits for a very long time. You have to face it ,she did not make or break the Supremes. There were a lot more folks and elements involved than just her.

[midnightman]

I don't know about that. Every time I come here, whenever the Supremes are brought up, it's more about whatever drama went on with which member. I guess the other groups didn't have that problem lol

[midnightman]

Of course the Marvelettes and Vandellas were kaput by 1972 and the Pointers and Emotions didn't make a splash until much later [[when the Supremes disbanded).

[supremesouluk2]

We have only ever heard from one source that Lynda was making demands - and this is the same source who said that Lynda declined the 1977 South America tour as she wasnted far too much money. Lynda was never asked to join the group for the 1977 South America tour.

Sadly some people feel that Lynda is fair game as she was only in the group for a little over 18 months.

[marv2]

Of course the Marvelettes and Vandellas were kaput by 1972 and the Pointers and Emotions didn't make a splash until much later [[when the Supremes disbanded).

Now there ya go.......TRUTH!!!!

[marv2]

We have only ever heard from one source that Lynda was making demands - and this is the same source who said that Lynda declined the 1977 South America tour as she wasnted far too much money. Lynda was never asked to join the group for the 1977 South America tour.

Sadly some people feel that Lynda is fair game as she was only in the group for a little over 18 months.

No, she is fair game because she put herself out there like that.

[supremesouluk2]

No, she is fair game because she put herself out there like that.

How? And why? I am missing something here?

[captainjames]

I love any and all contributions that Lynda did while in the group and as a member of Former Ladies Of The Supremes. She was there when Cindy left to help round out the trio. She was there to sing lead when Jean was ill. She was there to go to Stevie and her brother to get Bad Weather for us. And besides she was so pretty as a Supreme. Lynda was not my favorite Supreme among the nine but I still loved her contributions.

[luke]

Read Rolling Stone review of Touch as to how the critic viewed The Supremes without Diana. Diana and the Supremes were incredible; Jean and Mary and Cindy took the group to a whole new level musically. How many groups had the success they did after their original lead left??-not many. And of course Mary Wilson was there the whole time. Berry said she was the heart and soul of the group. He knows something about the Supremes!

[sup_fan]

Captain - here here! glad someone said it. Lynda was a short time member. but that should not remove the fact that she did make important contributions to the Supremes.

[supremesouluk2]

I love any and all contributions that Lynda did while in the groiup and as a member of Former Ladies Of The Supremes. She was there when Cindy left to help round out the trio. She was there to sing lead when Jean was ill. She was there to go to Stevie and her brother to get Bad Weather for us. And besides she was so pretty as a Supreme. Lynda was not my favorite Supreme among the nine but I still loved her contributions.



Very nicely put!

[olamaebarto]

Supremes gowns are a drag queens dream. And I mean that in a good way.

[smark21]

Read Rolling Stone review of Touch as to how the critic viewed The Supremes without Diana. Diana and the Supremes were incredible; Jean and Mary and Cindy took the group to a whole new level musically. How many groups had the success they did after their original lead left??-not many. And of course Mary Wilson was there the whole time. Berry said she was the heart and soul of the group. He knows something about the Supremes!

Frank Wilson took the Supremes to a whole new level musically, not Jean, Mary and Cindy as they didn't write, compose, play instruments or produce.

[marv2]

Frank Wilson took the Supremes to a whole new level musically, not Jean, Mary and Cindy as they didn't write, compose, play instruments or produce.

and Frank didn't sing, perform or present/sell it to the public..............