Mary Wells mistake

[tmd]

Although I have never been a big fan of hers, I recently read the Mary Wells biography, it really got me thinking about the major mistake in judgement she made at 21 to leave Motown. Mary was the first female duo with Marvin Gaye and I would have imagine had she stayed with Motown it would have been her on all of the duo's with Marvin vs Tammy , Kim and Diana, I have got to belive there would have been quite a few additonal hits that Smokey and HDH would have penned for her.
I would also imagine that she would have been one of the true icons of music and would have long ago been in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. What a bad way to go out.
Your thoughts

[jobeterob]

Mary Wells was the first defection and perhaps the one that turned out the worst for the artist. But the Temptations and Four Tops didn't do so well either, especially the Temptations. None of the other Supremes other than Diana Ross had a hit after leaving Motown. The Jacksons never did as well.

Perhaps only Michael Jackson and maybe Gladys Knight did better after Motown rather than with it.

[thomas96]

Mary Wells was the first defection and perhaps the one that turned out the worst for the artist. But the Temptations and Four Tops didn't do so well either, especially the Temptations. None of the other Supremes other than Diana Ross had a hit after leaving Motown. The Jacksons never did as well.

Perhaps only Michael Jackson and maybe Gladys Knight did better after Motown rather than with it.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I'd say that the Four Tops and Jacksons did pretty well after Motown. The Jacksons in the late 70's and their tours in the 80's were hugely successful, and while that may have to do with Michael's career being intertwined, it's still success. As for the Tops, I'd say that they did better in the few years with ABC-Dunhill than they did in their last year or so at Motown after HDH was gone.

[jobeterob]

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I'd say that the Four Tops and Jacksons did pretty well after Motown. The Jacksons in the late 70's and their tours in the 80's were hugely successful, and while that may have to do with Michael's career being intertwined, it's still success. As for the Tops, I'd say that they did better in the few years with ABC-Dunhill than they did in their last year or so at Motown after HDH was gone.

I agree. The Tops and Jacksons squeezed out a few more hits. But the Jacksons never topped the 4 #1's in a row that started with I Want You Back. Their concerts from the 80's may have been the most lucrative time for them though. And the Tops, especially with Ain't No Woman, had some sizeable hits but they never reached the peak of Reach Out, Bernadette, Standing in the Shadows of Love, and I Can't Help Myself. But they definitely needed to leave to kickstart their career and keep it alive by moving.

And Diana may have hit a concert peak as well after leaving Motown and she had some hits, but it didn't reach the level of the 18 Number 1's on Motown.

[Nothing But Soul]

Other than "Dear Lover", which was a fair-sized hit on Atco, the post-Motown career of Mary Wells was rather disappointing. Kim Weston suffered a similar fate after she left Motown. On the other hand, both Gladys Knight and the Pips and the Isley Brothers had their greatest success after leaving Motown. Of course, both of those acts had had hit records before they signed with Motown.

[midnightman]

Mary Wells was the first defection and perhaps the one that turned out the worst for the artist. But the Temptations and Four Tops didn't do so well either, especially the Temptations. None of the other Supremes other than Diana Ross had a hit after leaving Motown. The Jacksons never did as well.

Perhaps only Michael Jackson and maybe Gladys Knight did better after Motown rather than with it.

I wouldn't say the Four Tops didn't do well. They still had top ten hits going into 1988. And they were still really big overseas.

The Jacksons did okay but not on the level of MJ.

I think the biggest post-Motown successes came from [[in order by success rate):
MJ
Diana Ross
Gladys Knight and the Pips
Marvin Gaye
The Jacksons
The Four Tops

---
And that's mainly off the ones strongly associated with Motown. Not short-lived artists like the Isleys.

[midnightman]

Going back on Mary though, I think even she felt leaving Motown was a mistake. I think she admitted it was years later.

[thomas96]

Going back on Mary though, I think even she felt leaving Motown was a mistake. I think she admitted it was years later.

I feel like she was just very stubborn on the matter and when BG wouldn't give her what she wanted her emotions got the best of her and she left. If the rumor that he offered her half the company is true and she turned it down, then I have no clue what was going on in her head!

[StuBass1]

I think you're all forgetting The Spinners who left Motown and became perhaps the hottest male singing group of the 70's with producer Thom Bell in Philly...

[robb_k]

I feel like she was just very stubborn on the matter and when BG wouldn't give her what she wanted her emotions got the best of her and she left. If the rumor that he offered her half the company is true and she turned it down, then I have no clue what was going on in her head!
6794
No way Berry Gordy offered Mary Wells HALF his company! Whatever his last offer was, she should have taken it, and stayed with Motown for at least 3 more years, until she would have had a much bigger national Pop following. It certainly was a bad mistake.

[thomas96]

I think you're all forgetting The Spinners who left Motown and became perhaps the hottest male singing group of the 70's with producer Thom Bell in Philly...

True, but they didn't start with Motown did they? I thought they were more like the Isleys and Gladys Knight, with success before Motown.

[robb_k]

True, but they didn't start with Motown did they? I thought they were more like the Isleys and Gladys Knight, with success before Motown.
6795
Well, they were only with Berry's sisters Gwen's and Anna's and Harvey Fuqua's Tri-Phi Records, who recorded at Hittsville, and were essentially in "The Motown Family" all their career before Atlantic. I would say that they had a situation more like Mary Wells, Brenda Holloway, Kim Weston, than like Gladys Knight and The Pips or The Isley Brothers.

[mowest]

The Spinners had only one hit before going to Motown. "That's What Girls Are Made For," on Tri-Phi, reached #27 on Billboard's pop chart and #5 on its r&b chart.

[StuBass1]

True, but they didn't start with Motown did they? I thought they were more like the Isleys and Gladys Knigh. Years at Motown, with success before Motown.

Like many of the Motown artists, they recorded at some mom & pop record companies before Motown, but they spent the better part of 10 years at Motown, often singing background for other Motown artists, and even being assigned to chores like chauffering around some of Motown's bigger stars...sort of like valets, with just a few fairly insignificant recordings until It's A Shame written by Stevie Wonder who was trying to prove to Berry Gordy Jr that he had promise as a songwriter. No significant follow-up from IAS, and on to Philly they went with Philippe Wynn joining the group and adding a new vocal dimension.

[thomas96]

Alright, I don't know much about the Spinners pre-Philly so I guess you're right.

[roger]

Well .. at the risk of sounding like some picky, know-it-all pedant I would like to point out that the first "defector" from Motown was most likely MABLE JOHN ..

Here is her discography ..

http://www.soulfulkindamusic.net/mjohn.htm

And her only proper "hit" [["Your Good Thing Is About to End" which went Top 10 R&B in 1966) was recorded for Stax AFTER she left Motown.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF1VDhw7X4w

Roger

O.K. I admit it .. I'm a picky, know-it-all pedant ... :)

[mysterysinger]

Or was it actually Marv Johnson? Probably not so much of a defection as a deflection!

[144man]

Roger,

when your posts link to such a magnificent record as Mable John's "Your Good Thing", you're welcome to be as much of a picky, know-it-all pedant as you want. More picky, know-it-all pedantry, that's what I say.

[144man]

Or was it actually Marv Johnson? Probably not so much of a defection as a deflection!

Now that's funny, clever and true!

[tmd]

I would like to have the gang look at an alternative universe where Mary had stayed , give me your thoughts on how iconic she would have been.
I belive she would rank right up there with Aretha and perhaps been in the first RRHOF class. I am thinking big time. I believe she would have had at least 25 top 20 hits and perhaps still be alive had she not got tangled up with drugs after she left Motown.

[roger]

I would like to have the gang look at an alternative universe where Mary had stayed , give me your thoughts on how iconic she would have been.
I belive she would rank right up there with Aretha and perhaps been in the first RRHOF class. I am thinking big time. I believe she would have had at least 25 top 20 hits and perhaps still be alive had she not got tangled up with drugs after she left Motown.

Maybe one of the Russi brothers will chip in with their ideas on this thread.

Personally, I think that if Mary hadn't left Motown mid 1964 she would have had sizable hits with "When I'm Gone" and "Whisper You Love Me Boy" over the rest of the year and would have carried on recording duets with MARVIN GAYE, possibly ending up doing "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" with him instead of Miss Terrell.

She might also have done the hit version of this ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPysAfiihOY

After that it is anyone's guess .. she wouldn't have done "Use Your Head" or "Dear Lover" of course, both of which should have been bigger hits IMHO and if she hadn't got tangled up with the Womacks we wouldn't have had gems like "The Doctor", so I wonder who would have done those instead?

AND .. Of course, back at Motown, it would have meant that BRENDA HOLLOWAY wouldn't have had a hit with "When I'm Gone" and KIM WESTON would have probably have had to find someone else to sing "It Takes Two" with [[STEVIE WONDER perhaps?).

Roger

[StuBass1]

Maybe one of the Russi brothers will chip in with their ideas on this thread.

Personally, I think that if Mary hadn't left Motown mid 1964 she would have had sizable hits with "When I'm Gone" and "Whisper You Love Me Boy" over the rest of the year and would have carried on recording duets with MARVIN GAYE, possibly ending up doing "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" with him instead of Miss Terrell.

She might also have done the hit version of this ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPysAfiihOY

After that it is anyone's guess .. she wouldn't have done "Use Your Head" or "Dear Lover" of course, both of which should have been bigger hits IMHO and if she hadn't got tangled up with the Womacks we wouldn't have had gems like "The Doctor", so I wonder who would have done those instead?

AND .. Of course, back at Motown, it would have meant that BRENDA HOLLOWAY wouldn't have had a hit with "When I'm Gone" and KIM WESTON would have probably have had to find someone else to sing "It Takes Two" with [[STEVIE WONDER perhaps?).

Roger
I doubt Mickey Stevenson would have let anyone but his wife, Kim Weston sing his song [[It Takes Two) as I'm sure he was dedicated to building her career.

[roger]

I doubt Mickey Stevenson would have let anyone but his wife, Kim Weston sing his song [[It Takes Two) as I'm sure he was dedicated to building her career.

But Stu .. he did let someone else record it as a duet with her ... MARVIN GAYE ..

In my parallel universe Mr Gaye is busy duetting with Miss Wells instead so Mr Stevenson has to find someone else to partner his wife ... :)

Roger

[StuBass1]

Yes Roger...the point is the song was it takes TWO...Not It Takes ONE :D

[robb_k]

But Stu .. he did let someone else record it as a duet with her ... MARVIN GAYE ..

In my parallel universe Mr Gaye is busy duetting with Miss Wells instead so Mr Stevenson has to find someone else to partner his wife ... :)

Roger
6796
I doubt that Mickey would have been able to record Kim with another male Motown singer as a duet had Mary and Marvin been continuing their success at that time. He'd have written it for them, and probably not-at-all considered Kim in a duet.

[luke]

She was 21!! If someone offers u 500,000, movie roles...any 21 year old would probably take it. Some music writers feel her post Motown stuff more creative and she grew more writing, producing...Its not just all about hits and money. She supported herself almost til her death. Diana Ross' career post Motown--similar per sales.

[Motown4Ever518]

I read the book, and yesterday I saw her in a Motortown Revue clip. Had she stayed, the Supremes would not have gotten the big push to fill the Miss Wells departure. She would have gotten bigger, I don't think for the times she would have crossed over in 64 -67 as the Supremes did, but she would have become Aretha before Aretha arrived. The problem would have been her handlers wanting more, and possibly, deservingly so, but not getting it. So she still would have been approached by the bigger companies and she would have left eventually. I will say, listening to her Lost and Found, what really suprised me were the standards, but that was the Mary who sang what she was told, and did a great job with the material. As she got bigger, I doubt that she would have been keen to do songs she did not want to do.

[Motown4Ever518]

She was 21!! If someone offers u 500,000, movie roles...any 21 year old would probably take it. Some music writers feel her post Motown stuff more creative and she grew more writing, producing...Its not just all about hits and money. She supported herself almost til her death. Diana Ross' career post Motown--similar per sales.

I as a fellow, I did not feel I reached full maturity until I was 30, and I was a pretty mature fellow. And to me that sums it all up. Had she signed at Motown at 21 had the 4 year run of hits, she could have looked at all the factors before deciding to leave. I remember a writer saying she had to feed "the hungry arms", which factored into her deciding to leave for greener pastures. A tragic tale, though on a smaller scale, unfortunately, played out thousands of times by singers who were better or worse, that made a bad decision.

[robb_k]

Well .. at the risk of sounding like some picky, know-it-all pedant I would like to point out that the first "defector" from Motown was most likely MABLE JOHN ..
Roger

6797
I wouldn't term Mable John as a "defector". I doubt that Motown offered her another contract, when her first contract lapsed in late 1963. Motown had already moved away from Bluesy style R&B, and didn't really have a place for Mabel. I don't remember hearing that she turned down an offer to re-up.

Secondly, unlike Mary, she had experienced NO hits with Motown.

Thirdly, other artists left before Mable, [[some even offered a contract), and, at least one [[Barrett Strong) had had a hit with Motown. Strong left in 1962 [[a full year before Mable), for ATCO Records. Chico Leverett '61 -Bethlehem Records [['63), [[Henry Lumpkin[['61-Fairmount Records [['62), The Satintones '61-Morphed to Pyramids SonBert Records [['62), Popcorn Wylie-'62-Epic Records, Herman Griffin '62-Correc-Tone/Double-L [['63), Freddie Gorman-1963-Ric Tic Records[['64).

[roger]

6797
I wouldn't term Mable John as a "defector". I doubt that Motown offered her another contract, when her first contract lapsed in late 1963. Motown had already moved away from Bluesy style R&B, and didn't really have a place for Mabel. I don't remember hearing that she turned down an offer to re-up.

Actually Robb in the booklet notes for this C.D. there is an interview with Mable ..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B000APYZ4M/?tag=mh0a9-21&hvadid=21822125&ref=pd_sl_1rx1ekx3kt_b

In it she relates that she rang up Berry Gordy and asked to be released from her contract as Motown was moving in the direction of 'Pop' whereas she wanted to stick with 'Soul' .. The C.D. notes put the year as 1966 though, which must be a misprint.

Roger

[robb_k]

Actually Robb in the booklet notes for this C.D. there is an interview with Mable ..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B000APYZ4M/?tag=mh0a9-21&hvadid=21822125&ref=pd_sl_1rx1ekx3kt_b

In it she relates that she rang up Berry Gordy and asked to be released from her contract as Motown was moving in the direction of 'Pop' whereas she wanted to stick with 'Soul' .. The C.D. notes put the year as 1966 though, which must be a misprint.

Roger
6798
Thanks. That's interesting to know that it was HER decision. So, she DID "defect". But Barrett Strong was first. to leave [[1962). And Mary Wells was "successful" after Motown, first [["Use Your Head" 1964, "Dear Lover" 1965), before Mable John [["Your Good Thing"-1966).

[jobeterob]

I agree with whoever posted that the Spinners were the group that made it biggest after leaving Motown..............by a long ways.

[robb_k]

Actually Robb in the booklet notes for this C.D. there is an interview with Mable ..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/-/e/B000APYZ4M/?tag=mh0a9-21&hvadid=21822125&ref=pd_sl_1rx1ekx3kt_b

In it she relates that she rang up Berry Gordy and asked to be released from her contract as Motown was moving in the direction of 'Pop' whereas she wanted to stick with 'Soul' .. The C.D. notes put the year as 1966 though, which must be a misprint.
Roger
6799
Yes, it must be a misprint or error, as the last recording by her for Motown seems to have been made in 1963. Marv Johnson was recorded at Motown fully 2 years after his last contract ended, and J.J. Barnes recorded up until he left [[despite a policy to not release any record on him)-so, I sincerely doubt that Mable lasted with Motown into 1964, without recording since mid 1963. She must have been released in mid-late 1963.

[midnightman]

I agree with whoever posted that the Spinners were the group that made it biggest after leaving Motown..............by a long ways.

I FORGOT THE SPINNERS! They did stay around Motown for "forever" lol

[supremester]

This is a very interesting thread. Certainly Mary made a huge mistake. Berry was recording jazz and standards on her - with varying degrees of success but the interest was there. It's easy to think if Mary had stayed that things would have continued in the same vein. I disagree. After Where Did our Love Go sold 3 million, and the album took off, then 2 more huge #1's and Liverpool outselling The my Guy LP, Mary Wells would have been put on second base. I doubt that HDH would have worked with her as they could barely keep up with The Supremes and Tops. Mary was a great talent, but I think she would not have prospered as some suggest. Certainly she'd be better off, but, probably one of the whiners complaining that Diana got all the attention. As it is, Mary was quoted as saying the absurd, "Berry used the millions he made off My Guy to make Diana Ross a star." Public interest in Mary was strong enough to allow her to eek out a career for decades after Motown. had she stayed, she'd have fared much better, but, I believe, without HDH. I don't think When Im Gone would have gone top 10, nor Whisper You love Me Boy. Honey Boy might have, but it also might have been pulled for a possible Supremes release. Smokey would have taken her to the top again with Dont Mess with Bill - which i believe would not, in this case have gone to Wanda. Ditto "Hunter" - The Marvelettes would have really suffered, but Mary was a bigger money maker and that was what counted. Mary would have been a decent concert draw - rising above the Motortown Revue status. Very interesting hypothetical.......

[mysterysinger]

Well then there was Meatloaf - he was pretty big all along.

And we shouldn't forget Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons - they had huge hits with stuff they had written/recorded at Motown but bought the rights from them I believe - "December 63" and "My Eyes Adored You" for example.

[StuBass1]

Well then there was Meatloaf - he was pretty big all along.

And we shouldn't forget Frankie Valli and The Four Seasons - they had huge hits with stuff they had written/recorded at Motown but bought the rights from them I believe - "December 63" and "My Eyes Adored You" for example.

The Four Seasons had their major success well before their signing with Motown on all the Bob Crewe produced hits. They were the biggest selling American vocal group next to The Beach Boys through the mid 60's. Their Motown era was mediocre at best. Of the hit records post Motown...They were largely Franki Valli as a solo act.

[captainjames]

Had Mary Stayed with Motown I agree that a lot of Smokey's material would have went to her, I don't think the The Supremes would have suffered but the Marvelettes may have. Who knows Mary could have even greater success with some of those songs.

[rrussi]

Mary listened to other people who were involved with her. She, however, did not get a half million dollars--it was like $250-300 thousand, according to what she told me. Also, that is totally incorrect about Berry making an offer of half his company--total bullshit!!!!! That was always the joke--Why didn't you say to him give me half the label--as she said he got down on his knees with tears in his eyes and said, "You name it. I'll give you what you want." Does anyone really think that Mickey, Smokey, the Gordys, would have allowed him to do that??? He didn't even make that kind of offer to Diana when she left. I believe Mary's failures were the result of the power Berry and Motown had in the business. After all, look what happened to Florence Ballard. Mary did think about NOT leaving, but those pulling her away, mainly her ex-husband, said you better leave 'cause he's not gonna promote you anymore after all this--meaning the idea to leave. She listened to the wrong people and her age certainly had a lot to do with it.

[Kamasu_Jr]

No matter what mistake she made, Mary Wells remains a Motown & Soul music legend. She did not need songs like Don't Mess With Bill, which was customed for the Marvelettes. Mary wouldn't have gotten that regardless. She is iconic. Just think about it, her recordings are still heard somewhete in the world everyday. Not too shabby for a singer who made a big mistake.

[rrussi]

Oh, I totally agree, Kamasu! She would have been a big, big super artist had she continued with Motown. I believe the idea would be to keep hitting the number one pop spot with all future releases after the success of "My Guy". That record entered the Billboard top 100 at number 50!!! The company was totally behind her and everyone in key positions at the label really liked her.

[kenneth]

I think you're all forgetting The Spinners who left Motown and became perhaps the hottest male singing group of the 70's with producer Thom Bell in Philly...

Yes, absolutely! They were phenomenal in the 70s with a string of big hits, including a few with Dionne Warwick.

[kenneth]

Oh, I totally agree, Kamasu! She would have been a big, big super artist had she continued with Motown. I believe the idea would be to keep hitting the number one pop spot with all future releases after the success of "My Guy". That record entered the Billboard top 100 at number 50!!! The company was totally behind her and everyone in key positions at the label really liked her.

I thought the biography was interesting in that it relayed a lot of facts about her which we didn't know, and it seemed well researched, but the author didn't seem to have any real handle on Mary Wells, in terms of her personality and motivation. I also thought it suffered a bit from too many quotes, anecdotes, etc., from her best friend [[I forget her name at the moment). I thought it was a good job, but not definitive.

As to her defection, considering how young she was at the time, and the large amount of cash offered to her up front by 20th Century, well, I guess we've all done stupider things when we were that age. It's a shame though.

Certainly, this was one of many bad decisions she made throughout her life, professional as well as personal. Her involvement with drugs, not taking care of herself, excessive smoking and so on. We can't blame her youth for those decisions. Just the smoking itself, aside from the health issues, I'm amazed that any singer smokes. Hearing Neil Diamond and Dionne Warwick today is painful thanks to their heavy smoking habit.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Kenneth, I totally agree with you about your assessment of the Mary Wells biography. It failed to capture her personality though it seemed well researched. It never captured just how important or big she really was and didn't put her in Detroit or zero in on just how major she was in Detroit. There were a lot of great singers in Detroit, but Mary Wells had something theydidn't. She displayed vulnerabilty and innocence and she managed to convey that she was no different than they were and that she understood what they were experiencing .

[rrussi]

Maye James was Mary's best friend and like a road manager in the '60s. Also, there were about four hours worth of interview done by Steve Bergsman, who tried to cowrite a book with Mary before she died. He actually came to FL to interview my brother and I. However, at the time, they couldn't find a publisher. I do think the big error in Mary's exit from Motown is more about how Berry had become so influential in the business he could have the power to squash her career. Many people wouldn't work with her or even play her records if they wanted to maintain an association with Motown and its artists. Mary always hated the fact that Motown would fess up what they owed her, but then almost double it as to what she owed them in recording costs. EX: the jazz/standards lp she recorded, The Second Time Around, went unreleased, but was complete. She had to pay for those sessions from her royalties, but had no control over the product being released. I always felt like, why did they record all those standards for the My Guy lp when they already have an lp of stuff in the can. That was just more expense to Mary. I do believe, however, is she had stayed, eventually she would have made very big money. I think she would have been big like Dionne Warwick, and I don't think anything or anyone would have stopped Diana Ross from happening.

[kenneth]

@rrussi,

What was your relationship to Mary? How lucky you were to have known her. Maybe most on the SDF forum know you from past postings, but if you can let me know what your relationship was to Wells, I'd be most appreciative.

[Kamasu_Jr]

The Russi brothers were close confidants to Mary Wells, in my opinion.

[midnightman]

Mary listened to other people who were involved with her. She, however, did not get a half million dollars--it was like $250-300 thousand, according to what she told me. Also, that is totally incorrect about Berry making an offer of half his company--total bullshit!!!!! That was always the joke--Why didn't you say to him give me half the label--as she said he got down on his knees with tears in his eyes and said, "You name it. I'll give you what you want." Does anyone really think that Mickey, Smokey, the Gordys, would have allowed him to do that??? He didn't even make that kind of offer to Diana when she left. I believe Mary's failures were the result of the power Berry and Motown had in the business. After all, look what happened to Florence Ballard. Mary did think about NOT leaving, but those pulling her away, mainly her ex-husband, said you better leave 'cause he's not gonna promote you anymore after all this--meaning the idea to leave. She listened to the wrong people and her age certainly had a lot to do with it.

Very true. And I agree with Kamasu.

[rrussi]

Kenneth, we met Mary when we were very young, my brother and I. She became a close family friend and visited my parents' home quite a bit, especially when she moved to Florida in the early '70s.

[kenneth]

Kenneth, we met Mary when we were very young, my brother and I. She became a close family friend and visited my parents' home quite a bit, especially when she moved to Florida in the early '70s.

Thanks for sharing that with us, rrusi.

[tmd]

Your name is all over the book. I agree that she would have been a very wealthy legend had she stayed and would have gone down as one of Rocks top stars.

When you consider all the hits she had at the age of 21- that is very impressive. She did quite well in such a short time. Elton song "candle in the wind" could have been written for her.

[Jyqm]

Mary's decision has always seemed such a shame to me. I won't bother speculating how she might have fared on the charts if she'd stayed with Motown, but I agree that she likely would have continued working with Smokey and singing with Marvin. [[It'd be nice to have access to some of those alternate-universe recordings of the two of them singing all those Ashford-Simpson tunes together!)

I also can't help but see some karmic sting in the fact that Mary's first solo single in the wake of the success of "My Guy," scheduled but canceled after her defection, seems to find her asking the company: "What are you gonna do when I'm gone?" Answer: ask the formerly no-hit Supremes! Ouch...

[motony]

notice how Motown NEVER had another female solo star until a solid 6 years later, when Diana Ross went solo.Mary & Smokey would have continued their magic & Mary would have continued to have 2 sided hits no doubt she would have been THE biggest female star of the golden age of Rock & Soul.In 1964 Motown could not afford for her defection to be successful & yes, they had that power with the R & B radio djs & the distributors [[Barney Ales)....if she had been successful the others might have jumped ship, including writers & producers.

[kenneth]

I'm always skeptical when it comes to conspiracy theories explaining why Mary's records didn't get played post-Motown. I think the real reason is more basic. While I like much of her post-Motown material, really I think the main reason the singles didn't get played is that many of them just weren't that good compared to the Motown era singles. "Dear Lover" is a great tune, "Ain't it the Truth" is good, the Jubilee material is very interesting and definitely more creative, but hearing them now has got to be different than hearing them back then. I believe at the time the songs didn't seem to be that innovative and were likely viewed as largely derivative, but a weak imitation, of the Motown Sound where Mary thrived.

[motony]

I would say it made good business sense, not so much conspiracy. My radio friends in Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville & Butterball in Miami showed me enuff proof why her 20th Century singles would only get so high on the charts & then disappear. I saw a summer of 1964 Motown promotion packet sent to all R & B radio, they didn't have to even include a pix of Mary but they did an 8X 10 with a big blue X across her face saying "no longer a Motown artist". Mr. Henry Wynn of Supersonic Attractions, one of the largest promoters of R & B shows in the South told me "she gonna find it hard to work...she left her bread & butter, Berry Gordy".As I loved Mary & she was not only my fave but a friend...it was my Dad who pointed out to me that it was a good business decision from Motowns view.Per Martha Reeves, Gladys Horton & Sylvester Potts all the acts were called in to sign new contracts with both Motown & International Talent Mgt.

[kenneth]

@motony,

Well, that's very interesting. I can understand then why you feel the way you do.

[motony]

ofcourse the fight & shoot out between Herman Griffin & Robert West was a bad mark against Mary & might have scared off some people from working with her.I don't think George Scheck as a manager did much for her but she liked him & Connie Francis' husband[[I can't think of his name) that worked with Scheck.

[motown_david]

Connie Francis' husband was Dick Kanellis, Tony. Well, he was her husband for about 5 months which was some kind of record for Miss Francis!! [[LOL)

[jobeterob]

Basically none of the conspiracy theories pan out and none have been proved ~ it's kind of like JFK's assassination. [[There MUST have been more to it).

But if Berry spent as much time keeping his thumb on Florence Ballard, Marv Johnson, Mary Wells, David Ruffin, Marvin Gaye and everyone else that left Motown ~ he would have about $3 instead of $300 million.

Basically, Motown did what all the other record companies did ~ when you stopped selling records, when your sound was old, when you couldn't get a hit anymore, when the infighting in the group was so intense the group didn't function, when there were alcohol and drug problems ~ the record company held on for a while, gave you another chance and then they "set you free.............".

[motony]

Motown did not set Mary free...big court fight from June -Oct. 1964. Motown could have released follow ups by her, without paying her any royalties, they owned the masters,,,why didn't they?Because Barney Ales knew that the quickest way to kill a Pop singers career is no new music.5 mos. without a new release is a LONG time in 1964 music business. Mary had NO alcohol or drug problems until the 80's .She was well liked by all those at Motown[[including all the Gordys).Thanks David, yes Dick Kanellis.

[dvus7]

I would say it made good business sense, not so much conspiracy. My radio friends in Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville & Butterball in Miami showed me enuff proof why her 20th Century singles would only get so high on the charts & then disappear. I saw a summer of 1964 Motown promotion packet sent to all R & B radio, they didn't have to even include a pix of Mary but they did an 8X 10 with a big blue X across her face saying "no longer a Motown artist". Mr. Henry Wynn of Supersonic Attractions, one of the largest promoters of R & B shows in the South told me "she gonna find it hard to work...she left her bread & butter, Berry Gordy".As I loved Mary & she was not only my fave but a friend...it was my Dad who pointed out to me that it was a good business decision from Motowns view.Per Martha Reeves, Gladys Horton & Sylvester Potts all the acts were called in to sign new contracts with both Motown & International Talent Mgt.

II think the above statement says alot!!!!! If you listen to the Barney ales interviews....He says he told the radio stations not to play Ms. Wells records!!!!

[midnightman]

But was 20th Century Fox really a successful label? Did it really have promotional issues? I sometimes hate that Barney Ales helps to build up this myth that Motown was that powerful in 1964-1965 to tell record labels to not play a former artist's recordings. Obviously they did get released but who knows if 20th Century Fox, Jubilee and any other label Mary signed with had the promotional backing. When it comes to why Mary's career fell off, it's not as simple as "I told radio stations to not play Mary's work." Plus many of the post-Motown material WAS poorly produced. They didn't know what to do with her.

[thomas96]

Motown did not set Mary free...big court fight from June -Oct. 1964. Motown could have released follow ups by her, without paying her any royalties, they owned the masters,,,why didn't they?Because Barney Ales knew that the quickest way to kill a Pop singers career is no new music.5 mos. without a new release is a LONG time in 1964 music business. Mary had NO alcohol or drug problems until the 80's .She was well liked by all those at Motown[[including all the Gordys).Thanks David, yes Dick Kanellis.

That's very true. Motown contributed to her lack of success after Motown, and they did a pretty damn good job of keeping her irrelevant and sending a message to others at the company who felt they were in a 'bad situation' and wanted more. The trouble I have with a lot of this is that while I understand Motown was a business and the primary goal is to make money, they could've also done things morally 'right.'

[jobeterob]

You think a radio station that wanted listeners was going to play ANY cut off of the Florence Ballard album? The album was poor. No amount of promotion in the world would sell it. You think Red Hot was going to get radio play? It was poor too; it repeated Red Hot 79 times and little else. You can't make hits out of weak tunes.

[TheMotownManiac]

Thank you. Mary wells' was sub par for her previous songs and Flo's tracks were a joke. A very sad joke. The only track on it that had a chance, was "Like You Babe" and only a chance at that. I don't think, in '64, that Motown had the clout to stop Mary's airplay - even if they tried. ANY station is going to play ANY record that they think will excite listeners. No amount of payola would get a dog like Flo's first single on a playlist. However, Motown was big enough then maybe to quash Flo - but didn't need to. I don't think Red Hot is as bad as Flo's album - but it wasn't going to hit. Mary didn't have the voice for it. she did have the voice to sing People. Funny how all those books talk about Flo losing People at The Copa and never did it again, yet even Mary who sang on it for over a year must have forgotten to add it to her diary. After all, I can see how getting Diana's solo in People and finally being showcased alone would slip her mind......."Dear Diary, I'm dating a Top and a Tempt and met hunky Tom Jones........that;s all, Mary"
You think a radio station that wanted listeners was going to play ANY cut off of the Florence Ballard album? The album was poor. No amount of promotion in the world would sell it. You think Red Hot was going to get radio play? It was poor too; it repeated Red Hot 79 times and little else. You can't make hits out of weak tunes.

[roger]

Interesting to see how this seems to have morphed into a SUPREMES thread ..... :)

Personally I like most of Mary's post-Motown work and think it could have [[and possibly should have) been bigger .. but then we are talking 1965/6/7 when Motown was at its height and competition for "Motownish" music was at its most intense. It seems to me that Mary changed from being a "big fish in a small pond" to a "small fish in a big pond" and got a bit lost in the shuffle.

I personally think that both of her two biggest hits on 20th Century .. "Use Your Head" and "Never, Never Leave Me" are both excellent records but I'm not sure that, as a label, 20th Century was the best company to promote them.

Atlantic/Atco was a much better bet for promotion IMHO and tunes such as "Dear Lover" [[plus its storming "B" side "Can't You See You're Gonna Lose Me"), and "You Keep Me In Suspense" are terrific, but then .. little fish .. big ponds .. and if a hundred great records come out in a week no more than 40 of them are ever going to become Top 40!!

I can't see that her Jubilee material in 1968/9 was ever going to take her back to the top of the "pop" listings, what with all those Womacks around it was far too "R&B", not that that prevents ME from liking it. Presumably by the time that Mary signed to Jubilee she had decided to give up aiming for the Pop/Soul market?

Roger

[smark21]

Really Mary Wells made two big mistakes. First was leaving Motown. Second was signing with 20th Century Fox. They didn’t have many ideas for her. Her second album for them was an album of Beatles covers!

[motony]

In 1964 Motown had BIG CLOUT with R & B radio and BIG CLOUT with record distributors .Comparing Mary Wells to Florence Ballard or Mary Wilson is like comparing apples to oranges. Mary Wells was the biggest selling R & B female artist & one of the biggest selling femle Pop artists when she left Motown....Florence & Mary Wilson were not known commodities & Florence could not even bill herself as an ex-Supreme!

[stingbeelee]

I think that for part of this conversation we are talking about the years 1964 and onward. These are the years of the Civil Rights Act, March on Selma, Voting Rights protests, Lunch Counter sit-ins, Redlining; and I could go on and on. What some people are proposing here is that an African-American record company would have enough clout back in the mid sixties to tell radio stations what and what not to play.

[motony]

notice I said R & B radio...and Barney Ales had big clout with distributors. In 1964 [[and a few laters) a Black artists' record would have to be getting heavy R & B radio play before Pop radio would jump on it, no matter how big that Black artist was. The Temptations & Supremes had SEVERAL big hits BEFORE they got automatic POP airplay especially in the South.Persuasion in 1964 didn't take alot of money.R & B radio was SOLIDLY in Motowns corner.

[robb_k]

6809
Motown DID have clout in 1964-69 [[when Mary still had her chance for bigger success. They DID have influence on DJs. Djs wanted to get the jump on other stations by getting new Motown gems FIRST. If they were told if they played Mary Wells' 20th Century records they wouldn't get Motown promos [[and would thus be "late" in breaking new possible Motown hits, DJs who made up their own playlist might well decide not to include Mary Wells' records. 20th Century Fox did NOT know how to market R&B/Soul music. So, THAT also contributed to Mary's downfall. But Atlantic/ATCO had lots of clout, and yet, her excellent quality releases didn't do nearly as well as they should have. I'm sure that pressure on DJs and distributors from Motown still had some effect during her time at ATCO, along with the larger overall competition. By the time she got to Jubilee, Motown didn't need to remind anyone not to play or push Mary's records. Her career was dropping on its own [[and she was little known to most new Pop fans).

[midnightman]

R&B radio did play her post-Motown hits though so I don't get that argument? I would've understood if none of her records charted but they did. Like I said I still wonder if 20th Century Fox [[and later Atco) knew what they were really doing with Mary. It's more than just "oh Motown was this big bad company that told R&B radio to not play no Mary tunes". Least Mary still had enough to maintain something of a career until after the '60s ended. Now with other artists who left Motown after her, that's a different story lol

[tmd]

Really happy to see all of the comments regarding Mary Wells, I would love to see some of the Motown alumni comments i.e. Ralph etc. I often wonder- was there any attempt to bring her back to Motown? There were many who left but a few who came back to record. Perhaps it was a pride thing on both ends.