Questions on Motown 1018

[motownjohnny]

As far as I can discover this unreleased 45 was scheduled to be an instrumental entitled Disintegrated Parts 1 and 2 by a group called The All Stars.

Some listings point out that The All Stars were not the same act as the band associated with Junior Walker, so can anyone throw some light on who they were, where they came from and if they recorded anything else for Motown?

[carole cucumber]

Johnny,

I've too seen that notation in David Bianco's 'Heatwave. But Reg Bartlette's 'Motown By the Master Number' skips that number and....
TCMSC Vol 1 states 'selection number not used' for Motown 1013, 1017, 1018.
Perhaps Keith Hughes may wish to clarify.

Addendum;
I was surprised to see that the first volume of TCMSC index lists Motown 1013 as 'selection number not used'. After more research, realized that the single, issued in January 1962 did appear on Vol 2.
Sorry for the earlier confusion.

[thomas96]

I've definitely seen that 45 before, are you sure it wasn't released? The one I saw was certainly on Motown and not a re-issue as well. I know for sure that the group wasn't Junior's group, but have no idea who they were. I do believe they recorded at least 3 other songs as I came across an acetate with "the All-Stars" listed on it with 3 songs unfamiliar to me, and listening through it wasn't Junior for sure. I'll try to dig up that acetate if I still have it.

[144man]

I saw "Disintegrated" by the All Stars for sale at a record fair many years ago, but was unable to afford it. It was not on Motown, but on one of Mike Hanks' labels, the name of which I had forgotten by the time I got home. I can remember the name of the label was made up of three initials. The catalog number was P-1018, corresponding to the missing Motown number. Strangely enough the B-side was not "Disintegrated Part 2" but instead a track called "Senoreeta". I had previously seen this record advertised in Goldmine, where it gave the record label as "M". Maybe somebody at some point confused the "M" with Motown.

[psychedelic jacques]

I recollect asking this question a number of years ago on here, soon after TCMS began. I'm pretty sure that Keith Hughes responded saying that they's done extensive research on this when compiling TCMS, but nothing turned up; no master, no paperwork indicating 'disintegrated' was ever recorded - nothing. Perhaps Keith can confirm if my memory servies me right.

[robb_k]

6668
There was never any documentation on a Motown 1018 issue.
There was an instrumental band called "The All Stars" working in Detroit in the late '50s and early '60s. They recorded for Joe Von Battle's VON Records, and, I believe, one of Mike Hanks labels. They never recorded for Motown, nor had any connection to Junior Walker's group or Motown. Had they recorded earlier for Motown, it is likely that Junior Walker would have been asked to change his group's name, even when they signed with Gwen and Harvey Fuqua's Harvey Records, as they recorded at Hitsville, and were really part of "The Motown Family" from the start.

Here's the VON record:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/TheAllStars_zps15359b5c.jpg [[http://s77.photobucket.com/user/Robb_K/media/TheAllStars_zps15359b5c.jpg.html)

[thomas96]

Any connection to Earl Washington's All Stars, or are there three different "All Stars"!

[carole cucumber]

http://marshamusic.wordpress.com/page-joe-von-battle-requiem-for-a-record-shop-man/

[carole cucumber]

My the thing we learn by reading!

http://books.google.com/books?id=L4ghJfL5iBIC&pg=PA569&lpg=PA569&dq=Joe+Von+Battle&source=bl&ots=te0yZxix1k&sig=G0fRNddXPQdf0IsXx4un85qyc6g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bz2UUYuBOKrL0gHt3ICgAw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=Joe%20Von%20Battle&f=false [[http://books.google.com/books?id=L4ghJfL5iBIC&pg=PA569&lpg=PA569&dq=Joe+Von+Battle&source=bl&ots=te0yZxix1k&sig=G0fRNddXPQdf0IsXx4un85qyc6g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bz2UUYuBOKrL0gHt3ICgAw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=Joe%20Von%20Battle&f=false)

[carole cucumber]

Teardrops=?

http://books.google.com/books?id=L4ghJfL5iBIC&pg=PA569&lpg=PA569&dq=Joe+Von+Battle&source=bl&ots=te0yZxix1k&sig=G0fRNddXPQdf0IsXx4un85qyc6g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bz2UUYuBOKrL0gHt3ICgAw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=Joe%20Von%20Battle&f=false [[http://books.google.com/books?id=L4ghJfL5iBIC&pg=PA569&lpg=PA569&dq=Joe+Von+Battle&source=bl&ots=te0yZxix1k&sig=G0fRNddXPQdf0IsXx4un85qyc6g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bz2UUYuBOKrL0gHt3ICgAw&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=Joe%20Von%20Battle&f=false)

[robb_k]

Any connection to Earl Washington's All Stars, or are there three different "All Stars"!
6670
Earl Washington and his All Stars were a Chicago group. I don't think they had any connection to JVB's/VON's All Stars [[from Detroit), and certainly no connection to Junior Walker's All Stars. There were a LOT more groups around USA called "The All Stars" [[not surprisingly).

[motownjohnny]

6668
There was never any documentation on a Motown 1018 issue.
There was an instrumental band called "The All Stars" working in Detroit in the late '50s and early '60s. They recorded for Joe Von Battle's VON Records, and, I believe, one of Mike Hanks labels. They never recorded for Motown, nor had any connection to Junior Walker's group or Motown. Had they recorded earlier for Motown, it is likely that Junior Walker would have been asked to change his group's name, even when they signed with Gwen and Harvey Fuqua's Harvey Records, as they recorded at Hitsville, and were really part of "The Motown Family" from the start.

Here's the VON record:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/TheAllStars_zps15359b5c.jpg [[http://s77.photobucket.com/user/Robb_K/media/TheAllStars_zps15359b5c.jpg.html)

Robb,

Thanks for posting a scan of the VON 45. I too have a copy of this, but have never been able to date it, as there is nothing on either the label or dead wax to give a clue as to when it was released and I have never found a discography listing for VON. Any idea when this VON disc was released?

Judging from the release dates of other Motown 45's listed immediately before and after M1018, it seems that Disintegrated, had it been released, would have been issued around October 1961. Is it therefore possible that the All Stars on VON are the same act as may have been scheduled for M1018, perhaps through a leasing deal rather than an actual contract and for some reason that deal fell through and the record appeared on one of Mike Hanks labels instead?

Also Junior Walker's All Stars had their first release on Harvey Fuqua's Harvey label in January 1962 so could there still be a connection with his group and this unreleased track? Perhaps as I said above the deal fell through at that time and he and his band went to Harvey instead, so Motown never released the disc and it got picked up by Mike Hanks instead as 144man in his posting suggests.

Just my thoughts, but maybe I'm speculating and trying to make 2 and 2 equal 5!!

[motownjohnny]

http://marshamusic.wordpress.com/page-joe-von-battle-requiem-for-a-record-shop-man/

Carole, very many thanks for your very informative comments and links, including this one by Joe Von Battles daughter Marsha with info relating to her father's famous record shop and recording facility on Hastings Street.

I'm particularly drawn to a comment she makes on January 26 2009 at 3:24am in response to a posting, where she states:

'Many early pre-Motown artists came over to the shop to hang out, listen to records and some did record stuff, mostly, I believe with other artists Jr. Walker and James Jamerson come to mind..............it is possible, and perhaps likely, that Gordy might have recorded at Joe's Record Shop in the very beginning of his career, but I cannot confirm this and therefore, I will not tell you that he did'.

In respect of my request for info on the unreleased M1018, I find the above intriguing as I'm still not sure that there isn't a connection between him, [[Jr. Walker), the All Stars and this possibly scheduled, but unreleased 45.

By the way, I've also just splashed out and through Amazon U.K. bought a copy of the book you posted the link to: "Encyclopaedia of Rhythm and Blues and Doo-Wop Vocal Groups" by Mitch Rosalsky. As it should arrive tomorrow, that's my weekend now accounted for!!

[motownjohnny]

Thomas,

Robb is correct, there is absolutely no connection with Earl Washington's All Stars and The All Stars I inquired about. I have both the Earl Washington albums released on Workshop Jazz and from the liner notes for both can give you the following info;

on the first album [[202,) All Star Jazz" but listed on the liner notes to the album as "Real Jazz", the musicians are given as:

Frank Wess on flute, but who is apparently a saxophonist with Count Basie,
Thad Jones from Detroit on trumpet and also with Count Basie,
Frank Foster also a saxophonist with Count Basie and playing that instrument on this collection,
Benny Powell also from Count Basie and playing trombone here,
Eddie Jones on bass and also from Count Basie's band
Sonny Payne on drums here as well as with Count Basie and
Earl Washington on piano. According to the liner notes as Rodd says he is from Chicago and has his own group in that city.

On one track only, "March Lightly" the personnel are:

John Neely on tenor sax,
John Avant on trombone,
Herb Brown on bass and
Walter Perkins on drums.

On the later released Earl Washington album "Reflections" [[213) the musicians are listed as:

Earl Washington on piano,
Vernel Fournier on drums and
Israel Crosby on bass.

Israel Crosby is listed as "the late, great so clearly the album must have been recorded some time prior to being released in 1964., but as was so often the case with Motown in the early days there is no detail given as to where and when it was recorded.

Hope this helps.

[RossHolloway]

@MotownJohnny where were you able to find your two Earl Washington Workshop Jazz albums? I've never stumbled across any Workshop Jazz albums in all the years of collecting.

[motownjohnny]

@MotownJohnny where were you able to find your two Earl Washington Workshop Jazz albums? I've never stumbled across any Workshop Jazz albums in all the years of collecting.

Ross, these never sold in any great quantities when they were first issued so they are never easy to track down, but every now and again you do find copies on Ebay.

For example I've just now had a quick look on Ebay.com in the music category for Earl Washington and there are four copies of the original "Reflections" vinyl album currently for sale. One is located in Australia and looks like a reissue, but the other three are original vinyl issues and are priced at $39.99, $47.50 and $139.99 respectively.

If you don't mind having a CD version, the earlier "All Star Jazz" album has just been reissued by Hallmark and a new copy can be picked up for as little as $2.38. I can't see any versions of the "Reflections" album currently available on CD.

I couldn't find any of the other Workshop Jazz albums, but they do turn up from time to time so keep looking and good luck.

[RossHolloway]

Ross, these never sold in any great quantities when they were first issued so they are never easy to track down, but every now and again you do find copies on Ebay.

For example I've just now had a quick look on Ebay.com in the music category for Earl Washington and there are four copies of the original "Reflections" vinyl album currently for sale. One is located in Australia and looks like a reissue, but the other three are original vinyl issues and are priced at $39.99, $47.50 and $139.99 respectively.

If you don't mind having a CD version, the earlier "All Star Jazz" album has just been reissued by Hallmark and a new copy can be picked up for as little as $2.38. I can't see any versions of the "Reflections" album currently available on CD.

I couldn't find any of the other Workshop Jazz albums, but they do turn up from time to time so keep looking and good luck.

Thanks for the reply. I keep forgetting about ebay, I need to check them out again. My holy grail of Motown albums is still Brenda Holloway's Every Little Bit Hurts lp. I bought the reissue back in the 80's but I've never run across an original copy.

[johnny_raven]

Reflections was released in 2008 in Japan .. http://www.amazon.com/REFLECTIONS-ltd-paper-sleeve-24bit-EARL-WASHINGTON/dp/B001LINEIK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1368729854&sr=1-1&keywords=earl+washington+reflections

[RossHolloway]

Reflections was released in 2008 in Japan .. http://www.amazon.com/REFLECTIONS-ltd-paper-sleeve-24bit-EARL-WASHINGTON/dp/B001LINEIK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1368729854&sr=1-1&keywords=earl+washington+reflections

I can't believe that some seller wants $477 USD for a copy of this album!

[thomas96]

6670
Earl Washington and his All Stars were a Chicago group. I don't think they had any connection to JVB's/VON's All Stars [[from Detroit), and certainly no connection to Junior Walker's All Stars. There were a LOT more groups around USA called "The All Stars" [[not surprisingly).

How did Earl Washington and his All Stars end up in Detroit?

[thomas96]

Thanks for the reply. I keep forgetting about ebay, I need to check them out again. My holy grail of Motown albums is still Brenda Holloway's Every Little Bit Hurts lp. I bought the reissue back in the 80's but I've never run across an original copy.

I've got a very beat up original copy. Only 4 or 5 songs play but still neat none the less. On the topic of ebay, I've probably seen the original listed 5-10 times in the past year or two. Pretty good place to pickup rare[[r) albums as I doubt you'll find Every Little Bit Hurts in a record store unless your in Detroit.

[robb_k]

How did Earl Washington and his All Stars end up in Detroit?
6681
I don't think they DID "end up in Detroit". It was my understanding that the album was recorded in Chicago BEFORE they had any connection to Motown. I think that Motown simply bought the rights to release it. I think it was recorded in 1962 [[rather than 1964).

[thomas96]

6681
I don't think they DID "end up in Detroit". It was my understanding that the album was recorded in Chicago BEFORE they had any connection to Motown. I think that Motown simply bought the rights to release it. I think it was recorded in 1962 [[rather than 1964).

Hmm, interesting. "All Star Jazz" was released in '62, was it "Reflections" released in '64? Anyhow, why would Motown want to buy the rights to this? It was my understanding that the only reason they had the Workshop Jazz label was to keep Johnny Griffith there to play on the Motown/Tamla/Gordy/etc. records. Is this correct?

[robb_k]

Robb,

Thanks for posting a scan of the VON 45. I too have a copy of this, but have never been able to date it, as there is nothing on either the label or dead wax to give a clue as to when it was released and I have never found a discography listing for VON. Any idea when this VON disc was released?

Judging from the release dates of other Motown 45's listed immediately before and after M1018, it seems that Disintegrated, had it been released, would have been issued around October 1961. Is it therefore possible that the All Stars on VON are the same act as may have been scheduled for M1018, perhaps through a leasing deal rather than an actual contract and for some reason that deal fell through and the record appeared on one of Mike Hanks labels instead?

Also Junior Walker's All Stars had their first release on Harvey Fuqua's Harvey label in January 1962 so could there still be a connection with his group and this unreleased track? Perhaps as I said above the deal fell through at that time and he and his band went to Harvey instead, so Motown never released the disc and it got picked up by Mike Hanks instead as 144man in his posting suggests.

6682
I have not seen any dating on VON Records. I would guess that VON 704 was issued somewhere between 1959 and 1961. I can't rule out your theory that Berry Gordy might have been in the process of negotiating a lease deal with JVB for a lease deal of recordings by Von Battle's All Stars, in late 1961, and that deal broke down, and The All Stars signed with Hanks. 1961 would be about the right timing for their release on his label. But, I doubt that their cuts on the Hanks label were published by his own MAH's Music, so I doubt they they were leased from JVB. Detroit's other "All Stars" group probably were just signed to Hanks after leaving JVB. I doubt that Gordy would have leased product from JVB. Maybe Gordy was considering signing The All Stars, and finally, did not, and they had record "tryout recordings". But those have not been found.

As to Junior Walker and his group "trying out" with Motown first, recording, but failing to be signed, and then signing with Gwen Gordy's and Harvey Fuqua's Harvey Records, I rather doubt that that happened. If it had, we would have heard that story. The story I heard was that Harvey and Gwen "discovered" Junior Walker and his group, and they only had contact with Berry Gordy once Harvey's and Tri-Phi's artists started recording in The Snakepit.

I rather think that this is all based on rumour and mistaken memories becoming "institutionalised" by several people hearing these tales, and "confirming" that they "must" be true. I never saw ANY documentation at Motown [[or anywhere else) that there was a Motown 1018 of ANY title, even proposed, let alone slated, or scheduled. I don't know where the "stories" come from stating that 1018 was ever considered as a release by The All Stars. Maybe The All Stars release on the Hanks label, with a [[P)1018 pressing number [[probably not a record company catalogue number), got confused with the missing Motown number [[and that's the only connection)?

[motownjohnny]

I can't believe that some seller wants $477 USD for a copy of this album!

That asking price is plain crazy, particularly when you consider it's a used copy and there are several other sellers on the same listing offering new copies of the same CD pressing with a starting price of from $42 plus shipping.

[motownjohnny]

Thanks for the reply. I keep forgetting about ebay, I need to check them out again. My holy grail of Motown albums is still Brenda Holloway's Every Little Bit Hurts lp. I bought the reissue back in the 80's but I've never run across an original copy.

Have a look on Ebay.co.uk and if you search Brenda Holloway "Every little Bit Hurts" in Music, you'll find there are currently three copies of her album for sale.

The first is in Mono, currently has 4 bids, the highest being $21.50
The second copy is Canadian and offered at a starting price of $299.99. There are no bids!
The third copy is a Mono Deep Groove pressing, still in shrink wrap but opened, and offered at $100.

[144man]

6682


...I rather think that this is all based on rumour and mistaken memories becoming "institutionalised" by several people hearing these tales, and "confirming" that they "must" be true. I never saw ANY documentation at Motown [[or anywhere else) that there was a Motown 1018 of ANY title, even proposed, let alone slated, or scheduled. I don't know where the "stories" come from stating that 1018 was ever considered as a release by The All Stars. Maybe The All Stars release on the Hanks label, with a [[P)1018 pressing number [[probably not a record company catalogue number), got confused with the missing Motown number [[and that's the only connection)?

I think you're right, Robb. None of the composers [[one of which might have been Mike Hanks) or the producer of the record I saw was anyone I normally associated with Motown, and the publisher was not Jobete. The only thing that connected the record to Motown was that the dealer had written "Missing Motown Number" on the record sleeve.

I find it amazing that the record has never turned up again, and that no one knows anything about it. Someone must have bought it.

[robb_k]

I saw "Disintegrated" by the All Stars for sale at a record fair many years ago, but was unable to afford it. It was not on Motown, but on one of Mike Hanks' labels, the name of which I had forgotten by the time I got home. I can remember the name of the label was made up of three initials. The catalog number was P-1018, corresponding to the missing Motown number. Strangely enough the B-side was not "Disintegrated Part 2" but instead a track called "Senoreeta". I had previously seen this record advertised in Goldmine, where it gave the record label as "M". Maybe somebody at some point confused the "M" with Motown.
6687

It must, then, have been released on MRC Records. That was a Mike Hanks label from 1962. The only number series I know on MRC was 1200, rather than P-1000. But, we know that number series of these little labels changes from issue to issue, depending upon the pressing plant used. The only other Hanks label with 3 initials was USD. And, USD had a 1000 series. But USD doesn't start with "M".

[robb_k]

6688
Here's a record on the MRC label:
http://imageshack.us/a/img200/6651/leapingflames.jpg

[motownjohnny]

6688
Here's a record on the MRC label:
http://imageshack.us/a/img200/6651/leapingflames.jpg

There appears to be no tangible evidence to link this recording to Motown and the suggestion seems to be that the All Stars track "Disintegrated" may have had a release on a label with a connection to Mike Hanks.

The extract below is a quote from The Mike Hanks story available on this website:

'The MRC label was also started in '62 and Steve Mancha [[Clyde Wilson) was part of the The Sounds [[and The Stars), who backed Lawrence Faulkon. It's possible that "MRC" refers to Mike, Renaldo and Chuck, as these three co-wrote the Renaldo Jackson disc that intersects the MAH'S' catalogue numbers'.
I'm intrigued by the reference to 'The Sounds [[and The Stars)'. Any thoughts/comments on this?

I know Detroit in the early sixties was a hive of musical activity, with companies and short-lived labels springing up all the time, but like 144man said in an earlier post I too am surprised that this disc, if released, hasn't appeared on another label discography other than Motown and isn't officially referenced to any other company whether owned by Mike Hanks or indeed anyone else. It sure seems to be one very obscure 45!

[robb_k]

There appears to be no tangible evidence to link this recording to Motown and the suggestion seems to be that the All Stars track "Disintegrated" may have had a release on a label with a connection to Mike Hanks.

The extract below is a quote from The Mike Hanks story available on this website:

'The MRC label was also started in '62 and Steve Mancha [[Clyde Wilson) was part of the The Sounds [[and The Stars), who backed Lawrence Faulkon. It's possible that "MRC" refers to Mike, Renaldo and Chuck, as these three co-wrote the Renaldo Jackson disc that intersects the MAH'S' catalogue numbers'.
I'm intrigued by the reference to 'The Sounds [[and The Stars)'. Any thoughts/comments on this?

I know Detroit in the early sixties was a hive of musical activity, with companies and short-lived labels springing up all the time, but like 144man said in an earlier post I too am surprised that this disc, if released, hasn't appeared on another label discography other than Motown and isn't officially referenced to any other company whether owned by Mike Hanks or indeed anyone else. It sure seems to be one very obscure 45!
The Sounds were the male vocal backup group on Larence Faulckoun's record on MAH's Records [[also a Mike Hanks label. They were NOT an instrumental group. So, I assume that "The Stars" were also a vocal backup group, NOT an instrumental group. We need 144 man to tell us if MRC was the label on which he saw The All SZtars' record.

[144man]

No, it wasn't a yellow label. I think it was a black background. Of the three initials, the middle letter was so much more prominent than the other two that I wasn't sure whether it should be read first rather than reading from left to right. It was probably that complication that was the reason I can't remember what they were.

As soon as I got home I regretted not buying the record.

[robb_k]

6711
I don't know of any Mike Hanks label that fits that description. But, it could be possible that a Hanks label that I know of had a design change for that record or for a few releases. There was also USD Records. But that stands for "United States [[of America) Dollars"/"US $". So the middle initial wouldn't be larger than the other two.

[robb_k]

6712
Here are some USD records:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/TLark5_zps0aae5c1f.png [[http://s77.photobucket.com/user/Robb_K/media/TLark5_zps0aae5c1f.png.html)
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/USD2_zps7f8cd57f.jpg [[http://s77.photobucket.com/user/Robb_K/media/USD2_zps7f8cd57f.jpg.html)

[robb_k]

Hmm, interesting. "All Star Jazz" was released in '62, was it "Reflections" released in '64? Anyhow, why would Motown want to buy the rights to this? It was my understanding that the only reason they had the Workshop Jazz label was to keep Johnny Griffith there to play on the Motown/Tamla/Gordy/etc. records. Is this correct?
6713
I think that is too simple an explanation, and misleading. the general implication is close. The only reason they had the Workshop Jazz label was to keep the several Jazz-related musicians Motown used, working mainly for Motown. That group included several more than just Johnny Griffith [[although, he was the main one).

[keith_hughes]

I believe Griffith was the only jazzer who had a contract with Motown, the others were all on a per-session rate. [[I'm not sure what that adds to the discussion!)

[144man]

6712
Here are some USD records:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/TLark5_zps0aae5c1f.png [[http://s77.photobucket.com/user/Robb_K/media/TLark5_zps0aae5c1f.png.html)
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/USD2_zps7f8cd57f.jpg [[http://s77.photobucket.com/user/Robb_K/media/USD2_zps7f8cd57f.jpg.html)

I can't rule out the lower USD label. There were definitely two or three different colours on the label.

The record fair at which I saw the record was in London. I noted it on my copy of the 1995 edition of DFTMC, and emailed Keith Hughes about it in 2007, so I must have seen it somewhere between those two dates.

I'm sure it's significant that the b-side wasn't "Disintegrated Part 2".

[robb_k]

6716
Keith, please tell us whether or not you have seen any documentation within Motown with ANY reference to a proposed, slated or scheduled release for Motown 1018, and if you've seen any reference to an acetate by "The All Stars". In all my collecting years, and during my time at Motown during the 1970s, I have never seen any for either.

Thanks.

[thomas96]

6716
Keith, please tell us whether or not you have seen any documentation within Motown with ANY reference to a proposed, slated or scheduled release for Motown 1018, and if you've seen any reference to an acetate by "The All Stars". In all my collecting years, and during my time at Motown during the 1970s, I have never seen any for either.

Thanks.

I couldn't find the acetate I referenced earlier. I doubt that it was these "All Stars," maybe it was some other group as you said, there had to have been many groups with that name.

[keith_hughes]

6716
Keith, please tell us whether or not you have seen any documentation within Motown with ANY reference to a proposed, slated or scheduled release for Motown 1018, and if you've seen any reference to an acetate by "The All Stars". In all my collecting years, and during my time at Motown during the 1970s, I have never seen any for either.

Thanks.

Robb: No and No.

[motownjohnny]

First up apologies to everyone for resurrecting this old thread after such a long time, but you know what they say about everything coming to those who wait and how right they are! Here it is - "Disintegrated" / "Senorita" by the All Stars and well done 144man your memory serves you well Sir!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-DETROIT-SOUL-R-amp-B-MAH-039-S-MIKE-HANKS-UNKNOWN-45-THE-ALL-STARS-PMP-LABEL-/232239723798?nma=true&si=YyXSTm2K5A654AID2OVKLh03o%252Bg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

By opening the original listing link, which closed a week ago I'm hoping you'll be able to see scans of both sides of the record - almost exactly as remembered by 144man.

It is a Mike Hanks recording and by a vocal group so and here I'm guessing that the songs five writers may be the names of the group members. None mean anything to me! Now all we have to work out is how and why this record on some listings became incorporated into the Motown catalogue sequence as M-1018. Perhaps it was a leased recording originally slotted for release as M-1018, but for some reason the deal fell through so it didn't get released by Motown and was picked up by Mike Hanks instead.

The PMP label is new to me, so despite the cat. no [[P-1018) it may have been set up just for the release of this one record - anyone else able to add any further info on this "mystery"?

[mysterysinger]

One would hope that had Motown released it they would have spelt it correctly.

[144man]

First up apologies to everyone for resurrecting this old thread after such a long time, but you know what they say about everything coming to those who wait and how right they are! Here it is - "Disintegrated" / "Senorita" by the All Stars and well done 144man your memory serves you well Sir!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-DETROIT-SOUL-R-amp-B-MAH-039-S-MIKE-HANKS-UNKNOWN-45-THE-ALL-STARS-PMP-LABEL-/232239723798?nma=true&si=YyXSTm2K5A654AID2OVKLh03o%252Bg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

By opening the original listing link, which closed a week ago I'm hoping you'll be able to see scans of both sides of the record - almost exactly as remembered by 144man.

It is a Mike Hanks recording and by a vocal group so and here I'm guessing that the songs five writers may be the names of the group members. None mean anything to me! Now all we have to work out is how and why this record on some listings became incorporated into the Motown catalogue sequence as M-1018. Perhaps it was a leased recording originally slotted for release as M-1018, but for some reason the deal fell through so it didn't get released by Motown and was picked up by Mike Hanks instead.

The PMP label is new to me, so despite the cat. no [[P-1018) it may have been set up just for the release of this one record - anyone else able to add any further info on this "mystery"?

Thank heavens it turned up. I was beginning to think I'd dreamt it. The mis-spelling of "senorita" as "senoreeta" makes me think that the record I saw must have been a bootleg.

[robb_k]

12646
Here are the PMP sides. M must stand for Mike [[Hanks). I don't know for whom the Ps stand. The names of the songwriters are Jazz names [[one being Detroit Jazz musician, Frank Morelli [[who had also recorded for Motown)). I recognise Ashby, Austin and Pollard as Detroit Jazz players. Otis Pollard and Ray Pollard were East coasters. I am positive that The All Stars on Von were an instrumental group, and surmise that these PMP All Stars must be that same group. I also assume that "Disintergrated" must be an instrumental. I would bet that "Senorita" is also an instrumental [[maybe with a Latin tune and beat). If it does have a vocal, then, the group must be unnamed. A poster on this thread said the record had vocals. I'd like some proof. The pressing number looks like a number from ARP [[American Record Pressing Co. [[Michigan)) from 1963. Mike Hanks hated and mocked Motown. It would have been just like him to assign a record label catalogue number that Motown was set to use to a release that he "stole" from them, after a Motown deal fell through. The problem is that Motown 1018 would have been released in 1961, and this record was likely released in 1963. But, Hanks could have found out the story of the failed negotiations from one of the "P" owners, who brought the recordings to him, and used that number for that reason, even 2 years later. But this is far-fetched speculation. So, I suspect that the 1018 number is just a coincidence.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/AllStars1_zpsprgx4buj.png
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/AllStars2_zpsmfynjlij.png [[http://s77.photobucket.com/user/Robb_K/media/AllStars1_zpsprgx4buj.png.html)

[robb_k]

First up apologies to everyone for resurrecting this old thread after such a long time, but you know what they say about everything coming to those who wait and how right they are! Here it is - "Disintegrated" / "Senorita" by the All Stars and well done 144man your memory serves you well Sir!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-DETROIT-SOUL-R-amp-B-MAH-039-S-MIKE-HANKS-UNKNOWN-45-THE-ALL-STARS-PMP-LABEL-/232239723798?nma=true&si=YyXSTm2K5A654AID2OVKLh03o%252Bg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

By opening the original listing link, which closed a week ago I'm hoping you'll be able to see scans of both sides of the record - almost exactly as remembered by 144man.

It is a Mike Hanks recording and by a vocal group so and here I'm guessing that the songs five writers may be the names of the group members. None mean anything to me! Now all we have to work out is how and why this record on some listings became incorporated into the Motown catalogue sequence as M-1018. Perhaps it was a leased recording originally slotted for release as M-1018, but for some reason the deal fell through so it didn't get released by Motown and was picked up by Mike Hanks instead.

The PMP label is new to me, so despite the cat. no [[P-1018) it may have been set up just for the release of this one record - anyone else able to add any further info on this "mystery"?
12649
How do you know it was sung by a vocal group? Were you able to hear a snippet of it on the auction page? The link you placed was a dead page. But, I didn't see any link to click to go to a soundfile, in any case. The soungwriters are Jazz people. "Disintergrated [[spelt incorrectly) seems a LOT more likely to be an instrumental. I have a hard time imagining that this could be a vocal group record, especially given that the writers are Jazz musicans, AND The All Stars on Von were an instrumental group.

[carole cucumber]

Just a thought- the number 1018 when separated equally becomes 10 & 18. The corresponding letter equivants in the 26 letter alphabet are j & r. ... JR.??????
As Jr. Walker's associates were also called The All Stars and as they became Motown artists in 1963 when Berry Gordy absorbed the Tri-Phi & Harvey labels [[although they would not record until 1964) , perhaps Mike Hanks utilized this cryptic [[though not undecipherable) record number
for these artists bearing the All Stars name as a means of creating confusion, should Berry release a record by his new signess.

[motownjohnny]

Robb, look at the scans and you'll see on both sides the word "Vocal".

Clearly these are tracks are not likely therefore to be by the same set of All Stars as recorded on VON. I have a copy of that recording "1-2-3- Special" and that is an instrumental split over the two sides.

There appears to be a Mike Hanks connection on this 45, as the publisher is given as Mah's Publishing. The PMP label is new to me and I've never seen another recording appearing on that imprint, which is why the record no. P-1018 seems intriguing as it corresponds numerically with the listing on some discographies with the "missing" Motown 1018 recording given as being "Disintegrated Parts 1 and 2". The similar name and number seems very coincidental, but I may easily be jumping to conclusions without any tangible proof. I was hoping you might have recognised the PMP label and would have been able to provide some detail on it.

I looked for it on the website 45Cat, but there are no entries, not even for this particular record, which seems to suggest it may have been local to Detroit only and set up just for this one release. If that is the case then the choice of record number does seem odd.

Is it possible to find out more thru the two Master numbers printed on the labels - 6303163 and 6303164?

[robb_k]

Just a thought- the number 1018 when separated equally becomes 10 & 18. The corresponding letter equivalents in the 26 letter alphabet are j & r. ... JR.??????
As Jr. Walker's associates were also called The All Stars and as they became Motown artists in 1963 when Berry Gordy absorbed the Tri-Phi & Harvey labels [[although they would not record until 1964) , perhaps Mike Hanks utilized this cryptic [[though not undecipherable) record number
for these artists bearing the All Stars name as a means of creating confusion, should Berry release a record by his new signees.
12650
That's way too subtle for Mike. He'd have wanted to make it quite clear [[and upfront) that he was dissing and making fun of Berry and Motown.

[robb_k]

Robb, look at the scans and you'll see on both sides the word "Vocal".

Clearly these are tracks are not likely therefore to be by the same set of All Stars as recorded on VON. I have a copy of that recording "1-2-3- Special" and that is an instrumental split over the two sides.

There appears to be a Mike Hanks connection on this 45, as the publisher is given as Mah's Publishing. The PMP label is new to me and I've never seen another recording appearing on that imprint, which is why the record no. P-1018 seems intriguing as it corresponds numerically with the listing on some discographies with the "missing" Motown 1018 recording given as being "Disintegrated Parts 1 and 2". The similar name and number seems very coincidental, but I may easily be jumping to conclusions without any tangible proof. I was hoping you might have recognised the PMP label and would have been able to provide some detail on it.

I looked for it on the website 45Cat, but there are no entries, not even for this particular record, which seems to suggest it may have been local to Detroit only and set up just for this one release. If that is the case then the choice of record number does seem odd.

Is it possible to find out more thru the two Master numbers printed on the labels - 6303163 and 6303164?
12651
Clearly PMP Records must have been a MAH's subsidiary co-owned by Mike Hanks and two people with names that started with the letter "P", set up only for their joint ventures, just as MRC was. That is why his MAH's music publishing company had all the rights. MAH's, D-Town, Wheelsville USA, Wheel City and USD were all owned by Mike, himself [[until he took in a partner in Wheelsville USA, and eventually sold the entire label to him).

The pressing [[master) numbers seem to be ARP pressing numbers from 1963. Mike sometimes used ARP, as did many of the small indie Detroit labels. That is no clue that can lead us to a Motown connection. The "vocal" designation bothers me greatly, as I just can't imagine Frank Morelli writing a song for a vocal group. Maybe this IS the Von All Stars [[instrumental group), just doing a scant little bit of singing on what should more accurately be classified as an instrumental recording, something like The Merced Blue Notes singing or shouting a few words in some of their Jazz songs, or The Champs shouting "Tequila". "Dissintergrated, spelled incorrectly, just reeks of being an instrumental. And "Senorita" could be a nice title for a Latin beat instrumental, on which the musicians just shout, "Senorita".

On the other hand, would a Jazz record, albeit from a Detroit Soul producer's rarely-seen, one-off label, sell for over $1,000? I guess a Rare Detroit Soul collector might pay that much. I certainly would want badly to own such a record, regardless of its sound.

Still, my instinct is that it is basically a Jazz record.

I wish we could hear it. :[[

[motownjohnny]

Wasn't it in 1963 that Mike Hanks almost bought 2656 West Grand Blvd. to annoy Berry G. who arranged thru his legal people to snatch the deal from him by some "creative means". He really didn't want Hanks operating so close to him.

From what you say this disc would have been released around the time all that was going on.

On the scan in the original Ebay listing there is a Nashville Matria stamp visible in the dead-wax - I can't see an ARP one, but it may be there just not visible in the scan.

I'm sure Frank Morelli was linked to a forthcoming Workshop Jazz release that for some reason, like several others around that time, didn't happen - I don't know if any recordings for it were actually cut, but it's possible these two sides may have been intended for that project and the "Vocal" could be as you suggest just some loose vocals over what would have been a couple of light commercial jazz tracks.

I just wish I'd discovered the Ebay listing before it ended, so I could have contacted the seller to see if he had any info on it and its history.

[carole cucumber]

.....I just wish I'd discovered the Ebay listing before it ended, so I could have contacted the seller to see if he had any info on it and its history.

You CAN contact the seller.
Go to the original listing you posted: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-DETROIT-SOUL-R-amp-B-MAH-039-S-MIKE-HANKS-UNKNOWN-45-THE-ALL-STARS-PMP-LABEL-/232239723798?nma=true&si=YyXSTm2K5A654AID2OVKLh03o%252Bg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Go the box marked Seller Information- and click on seller's name, in this case mahslemonaid.

This will lead to a second screen with feedback ratings. At the top right corner of the rectangle is the word 'contact'.
Click on it and it will bring up a new screen wherein you may send a question/communication to the seller.

I hope this helps & good luck!

[robb_k]

Wasn't it in 1963 that Mike Hanks almost bought 2656 West Grand Blvd. to annoy Berry G. who arranged thru his legal people to snatch the deal from him by some "creative means". He really didn't want Hanks operating so close to him.

From what you say this disc would have been released around the time all that was going on.

On the scan in the original Ebay listing there is a Nashville Matrix stamp visible in the dead-wax - I can't see an ARP one, but it may be there just not visible in the scan.

I'm sure Frank Morelli was linked to a forthcoming Workshop Jazz release that for some reason, like several others around that time, didn't happen - I don't know if any recordings for it were actually cut, but it's possible these two sides may have been intended for that project and the "Vocal" could be as you suggest just some loose vocals over what would have been a couple of light commercial jazz tracks.

I just wish I'd discovered the Ebay listing before it ended, so I could have contacted the seller to see if he had any info on it and its history.
12652
Frank Morelli was a Jazz saxaphonist. I taped some Motown cuts he had in The Motown Vault. I also saw some Jobete Music acetates and a couple Motown demo records of his. His cut, "DeFunk Brothers" was his best I heard. I play it a lot, at home. If I remember correctly, he was originally slated for one Workshop Jazz 45, and an LP. Neither was released. Maybe Morelli's All Stars ended up leaving Motown in some compensation disagreement, or disappointment over not getting the promised release, and then signed with Hanks. But, I sincerely doubt that Gordy planned a Jazz release on Motown 1018, in 1961. All of Morelli's vaulted cuts were late 1962 and into 1964. So, I doubt that he moonlighted with Hanks while staying with Motown, and also doubt that he left Motown in 1963, and returned in 1964.

Yes, mid 1963 was when Hanks was trying to buy the house near Hitsville, and Gordy nipped that in the bud. That would have been about the same time as that pressing number at ARP. But, I doubt that Hanks would have used a known unused 1961 Motown catalogue number. He'd have used a current one.

I really doubt that Morelli and his All Stars were at Motown in 1961. The Jazz musicians at Motown at that time were mostly those who had been in Joe Hunter's Band, Popcorn Wylie's Mohawks, Maurice King's Band, Johnny Allen, maybe a couple of ex's from T.J. Fowler's Band, and maybe Johnny Griffith [[but, I thought he arrived in 1962 with most of the Workshop Jazz signees. Dave Hamilton, Frank Morelli, and most of the rest came in 1962. I think that Choker Campbell also arrived later than 1961.

I just wish I'd discovered the Ebay listing before it ended, so I could have contacted the seller to see if he had any info on it and its history.

Don't we all!We might have also heard, at least, snippets of the two sides. :[[

[johnny_raven]

12646
Here are the PMP sides. M must stand for Mike [[Hanks). I don't know for whom the Ps stand. The names of the songwriters are Jazz names [[one being Detroit Jazz musician, Frank Morelli [[who had also recorded for Motown)). I recognise Ashby, Austin and Pollard as Detroit Jazz players. Otis Pollard and Ray Pollard were East coasters. I am positive that The All Stars on Von were an instrumental group, and surmise that these PMP All Stars must be that same group. I also assume that "Disintergrated" must be an instrumental. I would bet that "Senorita" is also an instrumental [[maybe with a Latin tune and beat). If it does have a vocal, then, the group must be unnamed. A poster on this thread said the record had vocals. I'd like some proof. The pressing number looks like a number from ARP [[American Record Pressing Co. [[Michigan)) from 1963. Mike Hanks hated and mocked Motown. It would have been just like him to assign a record label catalogue number that Motown was set to use to a release that he "stole" from them, after a Motown deal fell through. The problem is that Motown 1018 would have been released in 1961, and this record was likely released in 1963. But, Hanks could have found out the story of the failed negotiations from one of the "P" owners, who brought the recordings to him, and used that number for that reason, even 2 years later. But this is far-fetched speculation. So, I suspect that the 1018 number is just a coincidence.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/AllStars1_zpsprgx4buj.png
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j56/Robb_K/AllStars2_zpsmfynjlij.png [[http://s77.photobucket.com/user/Robb_K/media/AllStars1_zpsprgx4buj.png.html)


Robb:

I'm afraid you might be incorrect. I just found an article on Newspapers.com from The Detroit Free Press dated Jan. 31, 1964. It's an article about a local FEMALE pianist named TERRY POLLARD. In the article, it mentions that she had worked with THE DOROTHY ASHBY TRIO, THE BIRDLAND ALL STARS [[featuring Count Basie, Sarah Vaughn and Billy Eckstine), WILLIAM AUSTIN [[Bass Player) and WILBERT MYRICK [[drums). Terry Pollard also appeared on the Tonight Show, Ed Sullivan & Steve Allen. This is definitely the same set of musicians.

[johnny_raven]

Also, it most probably is Frank Morelli as one of the writers, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was in the band.

[TomatoTom123]

Damn this thread is confusing... I've had to read it through several times to even understand what on earth is going on... Lol

Oh yea, I don't know anything about this and cannot contribute but want to wish everyone good luck on getting to the bottom of this record!!!!

[johnny_raven]

This is from discogs ...

12653

There's no pic of the B-side, but the title is [[drumroll, please ...) DISINTEGRATED.

The mystery thins ... :)

[robb_k]

Robb:

I'm afraid you might be incorrect. I just found an article on Newspapers.com from The Detroit Free Press dated Jan. 31, 1964. It's an article about a local FEMALE pianist named TERRY POLLARD. In the article, it mentions that she had worked with THE DOROTHY ASHBY TRIO, THE BIRDLAND ALL STARS [[featuring Count Basie, Sarah Vaughn and Billy Eckstine), WILLIAM AUSTIN [[Bass Player) and WILBERT MYRICK [[drums). Terry Pollard also appeared on the Tonight Show, Ed Sullivan & Steve Allen. This is definitely the same set of musicians.
12654
Thanks Johnny. These last 2 posts have cleared up a LOT! These All Stars are Clearly The Birdland All Stars, and the vocals were sung by Vic Perdue. This was The Birdland All Stars moonlighting with a small Detroit indie label, because they were playing behind lesser-known Vic Perdue, as Count Basie was contracted to Verve Records, and Sarah Vaughn to Mercury, and Billy Eckstine to Roulette.

It seems to me, after viewing the information on what clearly is the first pressing of PMP 1018, that it's more likely that this record was first pressed up by Carmen Murphy [[owner of HOB [[House of Beauty), Spartan, Starmaker and Soul Records), in partnership with the 2 "P" partners [[Including Terry Pollard?), as Mrs. Murphy's Chief Producer and A & R Man, Dino Courray, was originally listed as the writer, and Vic Perdue as the vocalist. Most of her 1963 labels' [[Starmaker and Soul) releases were pressed at ARP in their 6,300,000 series. The original music publisher was label co-owners' [["P" & "P"), as Mike Hanks was clearly not involved at that time. Mrs. Murphy made the great bulk of her income from her "House of Beauty" beauty shop, and had only funded her record labels to give the youth in Detroit's Black Community an outlet for their talent, and for them to have an opportunity for a career. She was a tremendously well-loved pillar of the community, generous to a fault, and a super nice lady. She proved that by "selling" the name of her "Soul Records" label to her former understudy, Berry Gordy, for $1.00. Thus, it's not surprising that she didn't ask for, or demand, half or all the publishing rights.

It appears to me clear that when Carmen Murphy closed down her record labels, in late 1963, and sold her Soul label name to Berry Gordy, and sold her remaining record company assets to her other former understudy, and former Chief Producer and A&R Man, Mike Hanks, that PMP Records was either part of her assets sold to him, or, she sent her former partners to her former head of production, Mike Hanks, to continue sales of their record. Either way, Mike Hanks bought or demanded full publishing rights to make further pressings of the record, and took Dino Courray's name off as writer of "Dark Eyed Senorita", and gave the writing credits back to the musicians [[who probably actually wrote the song), likely as compensation for taking away their music publishing rights. Courray was gone at that time, as he didn't move to Hanks' music empire along with Mrs. Murphy's assets. With the 2nd pressing coming out in later 1963, or, possibly early 1964, Mike Hanks probably figured that Vic Perdue was not very well known, and the group name, "All Stars" might do better alone, by being confused with Joe Von Battle's "All Stars", and Junior Walker's "All Stars". Therefore, he also removed the names of the individual "All Stars" listed as the musicians.

It's also clear to me that the catalogue number, 1018, has no relationship to Motown, as it was used on Carmen Murphy's mid 1963 pressing. I just can't bring myself to believe that Motown had an "All Stars" release slated for Motown 1018. I don't believe that The Birdland All Stars were signed to Motown in 1961. I think someone just had that as a theory, because they saw Mike Hanks' publishing on a Detroit release with the Motown missing catalogue number. It became an urban legend.

[robb_k]

Also, it most probably is Frank Morelli as one of the writers, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was in the band.
12656
But we see on the record's original pressing, that Frank Morelli WAS a member of the band, playing sax, as he is listed as one of the players [["played by....."), as it was sung by Vic Perdue.

[robb_k]

12657
I found 3 websites that have either a "free" download of either snippets or the entire songs on both sides of the Vic Perdue record. The genre on these sides is listed as "Jazz/Pop-Latin", as opposed to Soul/R&B as listed on the auction for the Hanks pressing, which sold for $1,029. A photo of the artist shows a chubby, elderly Caucasian man. I feel sorry for the person who won the record, thinking it was a Mike Hanks-produced Soul record. He was tricked into buying something he likely wouldn't have bought if it was listed as "Pop/Jazz".

But, to listen even to the 30-second snippets, we have to download their special "download file convertor". I'm afraid of picking up malware from that, so I declined to do it.

Is there anyone who knows about these music download websites and could go there to see if downloading their "file converter" would be safe? You may already have those programmes, if they are legitimate.

Google "Vic Perdue - "Dark Eyed Senorita". About 8 links to download will come up.

[johnny_raven]

12656
But we see on the record's original pressing, that Frank Morelli WAS a member of the band, playing sax, as he is listed as one of the players [["played by....."), as it was sung by Vic Perdue.

True, but my post was only moments before I found the Vic Purdue pic ...

[keith_hughes]

Frank Morelli played baritone sax & flute, and cut 9 sides for Motown in Apr-May 1963. All are instrumentals and most are jazz standards, but one tune, "Defunk Brothers" [[sic), was written by Johnny Griffith and Norval Childress, and published by Jobete. None of the titles resemble "Disintegrated" or "Senorita".

[motownjohnny]

With some assistance from carole cucumber, I earlier today made contact with the seller, who recently sold the PMP 45 on Ebay, and he has kindly provided the following info. on the record:

'Hello! I have not looked at the Motown catalog book in a long time. I know there are some numbers that have not surfaced. Like for example; I think there is supposed to be an Andre Williams 45 on the Miracle label, The Four Tops album on Workshop Jazz, and etc.

The All Stars that I sold listed the publishing as MAH'S, which would be a Mike Alonzo Hanks production. I think that Carmen Murphy, the lady who had the House Of Beauty, Soul, and etc. labels may have had a hand in that All Stars record. The record is rare BUT it was pretty bad, musically.

There was a Detroit Doo-Wop/Group record on the PMP that recently sold on Ebay. Maybe there was a connection? I've collected Detroit records for many years, and especially Mike Hanks productions, and that was the only copy of that All Stars record that I ever heard of. It is definitely not related to Junior Walker. The harpist Dorothy Ashby has writing credits on the record and you can hear harp on the record.

Thanks for your inquiry.

Best, Eric

This seems to confirm what has already been stated by robb_k. and it would appear there is no Motown connection.

[144man]

The M on the label is twice the size of the 2 Ps. As I said before, I saw this record advertised for sale a couple of times in Goldmine with the seller erroneously giving the label name as"M" with the catalogue number as "1018" omitting the P. Anyone who saw this record for sale as "M 1018" could have easily and mistakenly jumped to the conclusion that it was a Motown record especially after seeing the name "All Stars", and it could have snowballed from there.

[robb_k]

12658
It's perfectly clear to me that the original release was a co-ownership of the two "P" people [[maybe Terry Pollard was one?), who represented The All Stars [[Birdland All Stars), together with Carmen Murphy, to whom they came, to get their record produced and distributed, and finance the recording and record pressing. Mrs. Murphy, who did not need to make big profits from record projects, because she made a lot of money from her beauty shop, allowed the artists [[P&P) to keep the music publishing rights. But, to physically produce the record, her A&R Man, Dino Courray, asked for the songwriting credits for doing that job [[a deal that he probably already had with her on many record projects). Record companies often told young kids that their songs needed to be "polished up", because they weren't commercial quality. Or companies say "If you want us to record your songs and press up your records, and market them, and get them distributed, you'll have to give us the publishing rights and writers' credits." So Courray was listed as the writer. The recording session took place, and the record was pressed up, and distributed [[probably only regionally [[Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Akron, Indianapolis, Chicago, South Bend, Fort Wayne, etc.). It sold almost nothing. Then, in late 1963 [[maybe a few months later), Mrs. Murphy decided to get out of the record business, completely. But P&P and the rest of The All Stars wanted to have another pressing, and try to get some more sales from their record, and to have a record out to be known as current artists, to help get gigs. So, Mrs. Murphy sent them to Mike Hanks, who still had a good relationship with her, as he had been her first A&R man, and the organiser of her initial efforts to get into the music business, and he ran her early labels [[House of Beauty, Spartan, and the first couple years of Soul and Starmaker, before he left in late 1962, to give full time to his own MAH's label, and to start D-Town. Then Mrs. Murphy hired Dino Courray to manage her labels.

So, with Mrs. Murphy and Dino Courray out of the picture, P&P and The All Stars came to Mike Hanks, who became their new partner in PMP Records [[M could now stand for "Mike" instead of Murphy). Hanks had to put out money to press up the records, and he provided distribution through his MAH'S/D-Town channels, and so took the publishing rights [[MAH's Music) as his "fee" for that service and risk. As the pressing plant code numbers for the 2 cuts are exactly the same as the Murphy pressing, it's clear that Hanks just went back to ARP for pressing up a second batch, but had the label changed to appear less like poppy Jazz, and more like Soul/R&B, so some sales might come from people thinking it might be Junior Walker's All Stars, who were selling records with Harvey and Gwen Fuqua's Harvey Records.

[motownjohnny]

I've had this further piece of information from the seller of the recent PMP disc on Ebay

"The doowop group record on the PMP label that sold recently was by the Deli-Cados. Best, Eric"

I'm now a little confused by his comment, as I'm not sure if this is his clarification in respect of "The All Stars", the group name on the record he sold on Ebay that I originally asked him about, or if it's in respect of a second PMP disc that he had sold previously to "The All Stars" record and therefore one that I was unaware of. I will ask him about this shortly, but before I do, does anyone here know of any other PMP releases or recognise the group name "Deli-Cados". The name means nothing to me and this is the only reference to them I can find:

http://www.45cat.com/artist/the-delicados

The Deli-Cados share this recording on the Norton label, but as the detail on the label is scant and there is no date or address, this may not be the same group as the one the seller on Ebay was referencing, although the song is written by Vic Perdue, who is featured on what seems like an early pressing of the All Stars PMP record. Are "The All Stars" on PMP the same group as "The Deli-Cados" on Norton?

Does PMP just have a Hank Marr connection, or is there a link between him and The Deli-Cados or the Norton label as well?

[johnny_raven]

Evidently, they did record for PMP.

Both sides were written by "H. Perdue" ... A typo, perhaps?

https://www.discogs.com/Deli-Cados-Granny-Baby-Now-Ive-Confessed/release/9768182

[carole cucumber]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gmc6KT8aJXA

[carole cucumber]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lEK7af0JfY&list=PLYoaWgVAhr--g3pBERXNDRBR3LrXEoVPQ

[robb_k]

Evidently, they did record for PMP.

Both sides were written by "H. Perdue" ... A typo, perhaps?

https://www.discogs.com/Deli-Cados-Granny-Baby-Now-Ive-Confessed/release/9768182
12659
I remember a "Hub" Perdue. Perhaps his birth name was Hubert Victor Perdue, and he used his middle name in his music career. I wonder if he was a member of The Deli-Cados, or just their songwriter? Norton Records is a very recent "Oldies label". So there was no link between Hank Marr and Norton Records. The Birdland All Stars [[Jazz musicians can't possibly be The Delicados [[R&B/DooWop group). But, I would bet that The Delicados on PMP are the same group as that on Norton.

I don't know of any other PMP releases.

[johnny_raven]

12659
I would bet that The Delicados on PMP are the same group as that on Norton.

The A-side of the PMP release is the same as on the Norton 45.

[144man]

Don Waller's "The Motown Story [[1985)", which contained the most accurate Motown discography at the time ascribed no release to Motown 1018.

By 1988, the discographies in David Bianco's "Heat Wave, the Motown Fact Book" and Sharon Davis's "Motown, the History" both included Motown 1018 as the All Stars' "Disintegrated [[Parts 1 & 2), so it is possible that the error first arose as late as between those two dates.

That would be round about the time I saw the record advertised for sale in the Goldmine small ads described as M 1018.

[robb_k]

Don Waller's "The Motown Story [[1985)", which contained the most accurate Motown discography at the time ascribed no release to Motown 1018.

By 1988, the discographies in David Bianco's "Heat Wave, the Motown Fact Book" and Sharon Davis's "Motown, the History" both included Motown 1018 as the All Stars' "Disintegrated [[Parts 1 & 2), so it is possible that the error first arose as late as between those two dates.

That would be round about the time I saw the record advertised for sale in the Goldmine small ads described as M 1018.
12669
I have seen a lot of Motown "inside" official lists, and 1018 was ALWAYS "unassigned".