A few questions on the Vandellas...

[bradsupremes]

I've heard two different stories about Rosalind Ashford's end with the Vandellas. The first story I've heard was that she was having problems with Martha and was fired from the group in 1969 [[it's the same that happened with Betty Kelly.) The other version I heard was that she decided not to return to the group after Martha recovered from her breakdown/illness. Which version is the right one?

Also, there is the reported "Martha Reeves & the Vandellas at the Copa" album that was planned for released in 1968, but was shelved. I heard that it was Martha, Rosalind, and Lois performing, but I heard elsewhere that it was Martha, Lois & Sandra. Which line-up was it? I would think Martha, Rosalind and Lois because Sandra didn't replace Rosalind until 1969.

[marv2]

Roz was fired and the Copa LP would have been Martha, Roz and Lois singing.

[RossHolloway]

Why was Roz fired?
Why was Betty fired?
What exactly happened to Martha that lead up to her mysterious "breakdown/illness"?

[randy_russi]

You should try to get a copy of Martha's book--she discusses all the above in detail. Martha Reeves with Mark Bego,
DANCING IN THE STREET: CONFESSIONS OF A MOTOWN DIVA.

[topdiva1]

Why was Roz fired?
Why was Betty fired?
What exactly happened to Martha that lead up to her mysterious "breakdown/illness"?

Apparently the self confessed motown diva Martha Reeves fired anyone who she did not get along with - which by some accounts i everyone - and she cracked under the intense machine and being in Ross's shadow - at least that is the gaga - or urban legend.

Her book is typical of all the Motown saga's - "it was them not me".

[luke]

I forget exactly but I know Martha had issues with a romantic situation and her band and a Vandella and a Vandella she said was disrespectful. Annette said recently the story of her leaving due to her husband was BS. Martha didnt want her in group and she never knew why.

[topdiva1]

Anybody that Martha thought overshadowed her or did not obey her it seems was cut.

[bradsupremes]

Much like the 70's Supremes, the replacement of a Vandella every 2-4 years or so became common. Orignally it was Martha, Rosalind and Annette and after 2 years signing with Motown, Annette was out. Replaced by Betty Kelly who was in the group for 3 years and then she was out. Replaced by Lois Reeves and after 2 years, Rosalind was out and replaced by Sandra Tilley. Makes me wonder had the group continued into the 70's, if Sandra would have been thrown under the bus after 3 or 4 years and replaced by Martha's other sister.

I love the group, but to me, it just isn't the Vandellas without Rosalind Ashford. Once she was out of the group, the Vandellas really became nothing more than Martha's backup singers.

[Motown_M_1056]

Much like the 70's Supremes, the replacement of a Vandella every 2-4 years or so became common. Orignally it was Martha, Rosalind and Annette and after 2 years signing with Motown, Annette was out. Replaced by Betty Kelly who was in the group for 3 years and then she was out. Replaced by Lois Reeves and after 2 years, Rosalind was out and replaced by Sandra Tilley. Makes me wonder had the group continued into the 70's, if Sandra would have been thrown under the bus after 3 or 4 years and replaced by Martha's other sister.

I love the group, but to me, it just isn't the Vandellas without Rosalind Ashford. Once she was out of the group, the Vandellas really became nothing more than Martha's backup singers.

It was always about Martha Reeves. Her name had been out front for years. The Vandellas were her backing group. I don't think it was ever the intent to have them show a unfied & false front like The Supremes. Martha's voice sold the records. The Vandellas were her backing support and they really could have been anyone. If Martha fired Vandellas every few years, it was her prerogative. However, she is one of few who insisted all of her Vandellas be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame with her, no matter how short their tenure. I give her credit for that.

[RossHolloway]

You should try to get a copy of Martha's book--she discusses all the above in detail. Martha Reeves with Mark Bego,
DANCING IN THE STREET: CONFESSIONS OF A MOTOWN DIVA.

Not only do I have the book, but I have it signed by Martha Reeves herself! I just can't recall what she wrote about why they left, but I know there's always more than one side to every story. [[I also have Berry Gordy's book, and signed by the man himself!)

[bradsupremes]

What I always found interesting was that Martha insisted all the Vandellas be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. When I was at the Rock Hall, I talked with my supervisor and several curators, who actually vote and nominate artists into the Rock Hall, about why certain group members were inducted and if artists have a say over who gets to be inducted. From what they told me, artists can request certain people be inducted in, but they don't have the final say. The final say is left to inducting committee. The committee decides who gets inducted into the Rock Hall, not the artists. Martha may have stated she wanted all the Vandellas inducted, but that decision was not left up to her. The same applies with Mary Wilson. People blame Mary because she wanted just Diana, Florence and herself inducted. She may have suggested it, but she did not have the final say. Some groups have only a select few inducted while others every line-up included. It's really unclear on how they decide these things. I forgot what group my supervisor mentioned, but one of the members who was with the group for years was not inducted, yet another member who was in the group for barely a year was included. I'm thinking it's Fleetwood Mac, but I could be wrong. Anyway back to the Vandellas....

Even though Martha may have sung all the leads and her name was billed first, the Vandellas were vital. They had their own distinct sound and were more than just background singers. Unfortunately Motown's treatment of all the girl groups [[yet not the guy groups) by the mid to late 60's by replacing them with the Andantes made them look like nothing more than background singers. Martha didn't help by firing her group mates either. In the end, the Vandellas were just as important as their lead singer. When one Vandella left, it affected the group's sound and look. Rosalind's departure was the loss of the last bit of what made the group famous. It just wasn't the Vandellas after that.

[tamla617]

where did saundra mallet fit in with all this? there was a saundra mallet and the vandellas had a 7" 1962,camel walk on tamla.

[marybrewster]

Good questions brad and all; I've been re-reading some of Martha's book and just read about when Betty was fired. I think being a Vandella was an "at-will" job, meaning they could be fired any time Martha wanted. Not sure how easy it was to be a Vandella under those conditions, knowing you could be let go at any time. I've never liked the way Martha has referred to them as her "employees" when Nettie and Roz, and later Betty, Lois and Sandra "added" so much to the group. With no disrespect to Miss Martha, if she didn't "need" these girls, then why didn't she strike out as a solo?

I've always found it interesting that the Vandellas started as a quartet with Gloria Williams, Nettie and Roz as the Del-Phis. In those days, it seems as though everyone was treated equally and it was more of a "group", but when Gloria left and Martha reformed the group as the Vandellas, she was clearly the lead and Nettie and Roz were clearly "backups" with Martha assuming control over the group. I wonder if Nettie and Roz knew that this was exactly how things were going to play out? How can one day someone be your equal, and the next, be your "boss"? That alone had to put strain on the group.

I do give Martha and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for inducting all of the Vandellas. And since it was brought up regarding the Supremes versus the Vandellas in the Rock and Roll Hall, I have one more thought: It's my understanding that any group or individual who has a demonstrable influence on Rock and Roll and have had released their first record 25 years ago can qualify for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The Vandellas were inducted in 1995. Martha, Nettie, Roz, Betty, Lois [[joined 1968) and Sandra [[joined 1970) were all within that 25 year mark. The Supremes were inducted in 1988. Diana, Mary and Flo were clearly eligible, but Cindy [[1967), Jean [[1970), Lynda [[1972) Scherrie [[1973) and Susaye [[1976) were not with the group 25 years when the Supremes were inducted. Does that make a difference? I do not know. I'm not saying by any means that C,J,L,S or S didn't contribute to the group, if if you look at the qualifications, are they truly eligible? And one more thing [[sorry to get way off track with your topic, brad): but when approaching a group regarding an induction, wouldn't all members [[or "qualifying" members) have a say who is to and not to be inducted? So wouldn't Diana have as much say in the matter as Mary? Quite honestly, because Diana was so forfront in the group, it surprises me that SHE wouldn't be the one to make the decision over Mary.

Just some food for thought.

[reese]

where did saundra mallet fit in with all this? there was a saundra mallet and the vandellas had a 7" 1962,camel walk on tamla.

Rosalind and Annette sang background on her release ITS GONNA BE HARD TIMES. Martha says she didn't participate.

[marybrewster]

tamla:

From wiki:

In 1957, the sixteen-year-old Reeves joined fifteen-year-olds Gloria Williams and Rosalind Ashford and fourteen-year-old Annette Beard to form The Del-Phis. The group spent around four years performing in talent shows, high school parties and private events and being trained by future Motown groomer Maxine Powell at Detroit's dance hall, the Ferris Center. During group detours, Reeves formed the Sabre-Ettes and joined the Fascinations before returning back to the Del-Phis who were now recording backup for Detroit musician Mike Hanks.

After performing at several talent shows, the group was signed to the Chess subsidiary, Checkmate Records, with the release of the record, the Reeves-led "I'll Let You Know", which was released in 1961. Gaining some attention from Motown after the label bought Checkmate, the group, now under the name The Vels, recorded the Williams-led song "There He Is [[At My Door)" while another Detroit singer, Saundra Mallett [[future member of Motown group The Elgins), sung on "Camel Walk", the latter on the Tamla label. After those two singles failed to chart, Williams left the group and the group stopped recording while Reeves bided her time working at odd jobs and tended time singing solo at Detroit nightclubs trying to get noticed, usually under the pseudonym Martha LaVaille.

[tamla617]

cheers marybrewster perhaps i should use wiki!

[luke]

In recent interviews Roz and Annette have both completely disputed the notion that they were not a group and were just hoot owls. They said they were in the original group before Martha and then when she joined it was still all members were equal. Brad is right. The Vandellas' vocals on Heat Wave are intrinsic to its' success. All members of a group are intrinsic to its' success. Just as when Flo left the Supremes it is never the same. Ultimately hard core fans help keep a group going and people are loyal.

[luke]

PS--good point. And as Cindy had not been in the group 25 years prior she may not have been eligible. As far as I know the only person who said Mary blocked Cindy into RRHOF was JRandy and many things he has written have been his opinion or proved wrong. He had a grudge against Mary for years for firing him. Cindy has not confirmed it was true.

[Motown_M_1056]

What I always found interesting was that Martha insisted all the Vandellas be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. When I was at the Rock Hall, I talked with my supervisor and several curators, who actually vote and nominate artists into the Rock Hall, about why certain group members were inducted and if artists have a say over who gets to be inducted. From what they told me, artists can request certain people be inducted in, but they don't have the final say. The final say is left to inducting committee. The committee decides who gets inducted into the Rock Hall, not the artists. Martha may have stated she wanted all the Vandellas inducted, but that decision was not left up to her. The same applies with Mary Wilson. People blame Mary because she wanted just Diana, Florence and herself inducted. She may have suggested it, but she did not have the final say. Some groups have only a select few inducted while others every line-up included. It's really unclear on how they decide these things. I forgot what group my supervisor mentioned, but one of the members who was with the group for years was not inducted, yet another member who was in the group for barely a year was included. I'm thinking it's Fleetwood Mac, but I could be wrong. Anyway back to the Vandellas....

Even though Martha may have sung all the leads and her name was billed first, the Vandellas were vital. They had their own distinct sound and were more than just background singers. Unfortunately Motown's treatment of all the girl groups [[yet not the guy groups) by the mid to late 60's by replacing them with the Andantes made them look like nothing more than background singers. Martha didn't help by firing her group mates either. In the end, the Vandellas were just as important as their lead singer. When one Vandella left, it affected the group's sound and look. Rosalind's departure was the loss of the last bit of what made the group famous. It just wasn't the Vandellas after that.


It doesn't matter who decides who gets in, the point is Martha Reeves suggested all of the Vandellas who appeared on Motown album covers with her be inducted into the Rock Hall along with her. She remembered. That's the point. Martha Reeves was the leader of the Vandellas. She was the focal point. That's not denying the Vandellas' importance [[they were). But could they have had hits without Martha? The Vandellas were her backing group. We've found out the Andantes sang behind Martha more than the Vandellas did on those records. The Vvandellas started out with an identifiable sound, but more often than not, it was really the Andantes supplying the sound. I don't really care who sang what. The music is still good.

[marv2]

Why was Roz fired?
Why was Betty fired?
What exactly happened to Martha that lead up to her mysterious "breakdown/illness"?

They got on Martha's nerves. hehehehehehe!

[RossHolloway]

Wern't they all singing equal parts as Marvin Gaye's background group early on? And since the Vandellas were under contract with Motown, wouldn't Berry Gordy have to sign off on the firings? I guess my question is was Anette pushed or did she jump?

[marv2]

You should try to get a copy of Martha's book--she discusses all the above in detail. Martha Reeves with Mark Bego,
DANCING IN THE STREET: CONFESSIONS OF A MOTOWN DIVA.

You are right Randy. That is a great book!

[reese]

PS--good point. And as Cindy had not been in the group 25 years prior she may not have been eligible. As far as I know the only person who said Mary blocked Cindy into RRHOF was JRandy and many things he has written have been his opinion or proved wrong. He had a grudge against Mary for years for firing him. Cindy has not confirmed it was true.

Actually, it was Tony Turner who wrote in his second book that Mary blocked Cindy's admission into the R&R Hall Of Fame.

Re the 25 year rule, I don't know how stringently they apply it. Dennis Edwards joined the Tempts in 1968. Yet when the group was inducted in 1989, he was included. And of course, there's the major oversight that had Smokey inducted without the Miracles in 1987, even though he was not a solo artist for 25 years by that point.

[luke]

As I said above Martha wanted her out and she was put out!

[marv2]

Anybody that Martha thought overshadowed her or did not obey her it seems was cut.

Like I said, they got on Martha's nerves.............

[marv2]

Much like the 70's Supremes, the replacement of a Vandella every 2-4 years or so became common. Orignally it was Martha, Rosalind and Annette and after 2 years signing with Motown, Annette was out. Replaced by Betty Kelly who was in the group for 3 years and then she was out. Replaced by Lois Reeves and after 2 years, Rosalind was out and replaced by Sandra Tilley. Makes me wonder had the group continued into the 70's, if Sandra would have been thrown under the bus after 3 or 4 years and replaced by Martha's other sister.

I love the group, but to me, it just isn't the Vandellas without Rosalind Ashford. Once she was out of the group, the Vandellas really became nothing more than Martha's backup singers.


Of course Sandy would have been thrown under the bus! One her cousins from Cleveland chats with me on the internet from time to time.

[Motown_M_1056]

Wern't they all singing equal parts as Marvin Gaye's background group early on? And since the Vandellas were under contract with Motown, wouldn't Berry Gordy have to sign off on the firings? I guess my question is was Anette pushed or did she jump?

In her book, Martha maintained the Vandellas were her group. I guess she could hire & fire at will and she did. Rosilind , Annette and Betty have their sides of why they were dismissed or whatever. Berry Gordy had nothing to do with it. n 1967, Betty Kelly was let go so quickly, they still had her picture outside ta theater where Mmartha & the Vandellas were performing. Martha told the audience she hired her sister Lois to repla



ce Betty.

[marv2]

It was always about Martha Reeves. Her name had been out front for years. The Vandellas were her backing group. I don't think it was ever the intent to have them show a unfied & false front like The Supremes. Martha's voice sold the records. The Vandellas were her backing support and they really could have been anyone. If Martha fired Vandellas every few years, it was her prerogative. However, she is one of few who insisted all of her Vandellas be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame with her, no matter how short their tenure. I give her credit for that.

That is true Motown_M

[bradsupremes]

Mary - It is from my understanding that once a group is inducted all the members can be included regardless if they were in the group 25 years prior. Another thing that I was told was that the Rock Hall committee includes the members during a time when the group contributed the most success and influence. For example, the Temptations were most successful and influential between 1964-1971 and so those members in that timeframe which included David, Paul, Eddie, Melvin, Otis and Dennis were inducted. For the Supremes, it should have been Diana, Mary, Florence, Cindy and Jean. In the case of the Vandellas, it should have been Martha, Rosalind, Annette, Betty and Lois.

[marv2]

Here in a recent "interview" Martha states that the Vandellas thought that they were better than her.........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR50htpXTH0

[phyl]

i used to loike martha reevess until i hear how shittye she tereated the vandells marhta reeves tnneeds to start acting right and tlel the vanellesa hses sory for teartting them like shit the vaneklses were gerats isigners and shoudl be giv en respeoct and if martha reeves cant start rep;secing them then she can fukk off and go to hell.

[marv2]

Good questions brad and all; I've been re-reading some of Martha's book and just read about when Betty was fired. I think being a Vandella was an "at-will" job, meaning they could be fired any time Martha wanted. Not sure how easy it was to be a Vandella under those conditions, knowing you could be let go at any time. I've never liked the way Martha has referred to them as her "employees" when Nettie and Roz, and later Betty, Lois and Sandra "added" so much to the group. With no disrespect to Miss Martha, if she didn't "need" these girls, then why didn't she strike out as a solo?

I've always found it interesting that the Vandellas started as a quartet with Gloria Williams, Nettie and Roz as the Del-Phis. In those days, it seems as though everyone was treated equally and it was more of a "group", but when Gloria left and Martha reformed the group as the Vandellas, she was clearly the lead and Nettie and Roz were clearly "backups" with Martha assuming control over the group. I wonder if Nettie and Roz knew that this was exactly how things were going to play out? How can one day someone be your equal, and the next, be your "boss"? That alone had to put strain on the group.

I do give Martha and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for inducting all of the Vandellas. And since it was brought up regarding the Supremes versus the Vandellas in the Rock and Roll Hall, I have one more thought: It's my understanding that any group or individual who has a demonstrable influence on Rock and Roll and have had released their first record 25 years ago can qualify for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The Vandellas were inducted in 1995. Martha, Nettie, Roz, Betty, Lois [[joined 1968) and Sandra [[joined 1970) were all within that 25 year mark. The Supremes were inducted in 1988. Diana, Mary and Flo were clearly eligible, but Cindy [[1967), Jean [[1970), Lynda [[1972) Scherrie [[1973) and Susaye [[1976) were not with the group 25 years when the Supremes were inducted. Does that make a difference? I do not know. I'm not saying by any means that C,J,L,S or S didn't contribute to the group, if if you look at the qualifications, are they truly eligible? And one more thing [[sorry to get way off track with your topic, brad): but when approaching a group regarding an induction, wouldn't all members [[or "qualifying" members) have a say who is to and not to be inducted? So wouldn't Diana have as much say in the matter as Mary? Quite honestly, because Diana was so forfront in the group, it surprises me that SHE wouldn't be the one to make the decision over Mary.

Just some food for thought.

Well since you brought it up and I hate starting off the next sentence like this but...... Rumor has it that Diana Ross didn't even want Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard inducted. She thought that she should have gone in as a solo artist first. She contacted Paul McCartney of the Beatles [[who were being inducted at the same time as the Supremes) and convinced him not to attend because he too should have been inducted as a "solo artist" and not as a part of a group. When this "rumor" got around, some folks were pissed. Mike Love of the Beach Boys could not hold his tongue and bashed Ross for her "absence" while at the podium when his group, the Beach Boys were being inducted at the ceremonies at the Waldorf.

[mellow_q]

I did an interview with Roz and Annette about a year ago for A Touch of Classic Soul and I asked Annette about her leaving the group. This was her response ...

“I was in love. I became pregnant and I just did not want to go out on stage being pregnant. I did for awhile. I stayed out there until I was about four months pregnant, but I was starting to burst out of my uniforms. I decided at that time that I would give it up and go ahead and do my family thing. The girls tried to get me to stay. They kept telling me they would make maternity uniforms for me, but I just could not see myself out there like that.”

A little further in the interview, she stated ...

“I think I was okay with it because it was my choice. I have to admit that when the girls would come to town and I would go to see them, I felt that little twinge in my heart that I had given up the group and the group was doing well; I had given up that to get married and have children. Of course, I wouldn’t trade my kids for anything. The only other thing that bugged me out just a little bit was the fact that the marriage didn’t last. Had it lasted, I would’ve felt different about it. However, the fact is that I gave up that career so I could get married, have a family, and then after some years, the marriage didn’t work. I wouldn’t trade anything for my children or the fact that I had them. That was a good thing. I think things happen for a reason. That might have been the reason I might have stepped out at that time."

Nothing here about getting fired by Martha.

Marc Taylor

[RossHolloway]

Mellow q/Marc Taylor - Thanks for clearing up that little piece of the puzzle. Did you have a chance to speak with any of the other Vandellas?

[midnightman]

Another case of rumors and innuendo as to why certain Vandellas members left. Plus we have to understand, while the Motown groups didn't really have a say in their music [[since Berry controlled that part), he didn't control who left the group. I think of the acts that signed with him, he managed JUST the Supremes. And Martha was appointed to be the leader and their name was billed as Martha and the Vandellas. Martha, Annette and Roz, as stated, didn't become a group until 1960 when Martha joined the others and Gloria Williamson. Then after Gloria split, it was just those three. Annette left on maternity leave. Now as for Betty, I think it was confirmed that Martha fired her. Martha and Roz, who knows with them. And I think Martha by '72 was ready to move on her own anyways. The group weren't having hits for five years when they did split up and most of the recordings after 1967 were Martha and the Andantes so...

[stingbeelee]

Because the Vandellas were under contract with Motown, I seriously doubt that Martha could hire and fire anyone. More than likely, Martha went to Motown and asked for so and so to be let go, and Motown said fine. Because they were on TV and were known as a Motown group, it would be crazy for Motown to let Martha hire and fire at will, things had to be cleared with Motown.

[RossHolloway]

So if Betty and Roz were terminated by Martha/Motown, did Motown have to continue to pay them according to their "contract"? And what type of payout from recordings/royalties or "banked" earnings did they receive when they were terminated? When Florence Ballard left it was all well documented, but what about the details of when Betty and Roz were let go? Or what about David Ruffin?

[marv2]

So if Betty and Roz were terminated by Martha/Motown, did Motown have to continue to pay them according to their "contract"? And what type of payout from recordings/royalties or "banked" earnings did they receive when they were terminated? When Florence Ballard left it was all well documented, but what about the details of when Betty and Roz were let go? Or what about David Ruffin?

Florence Ballard didn't leave. Florence was fired and according to comments by Mrs. Edwards, she may have still been under contract to Motown Records in July 1967.

[midnightman]

Actually Florence was still contracted to Motown until February 22, 1968, eight years until...well you know. :[[

[midnightman]

As for the former Vandellas, it's strange how we never hear of their dealings with Motown besides from Martha but I guess the media doesn't cover them as much as they do the Supremes, or even the Temptations [[to a lesser degree).

[luke]

I wonder if Motown would have recorded Flo as they did David Ruffin?

[Motown_M_1056]

[QUOTE=stingbeelee;12474]Because the Vandellas were under contract with Motown, I seriously doubt that Martha could hire and fire anyone. More than likely, Martha went to Motown and asked for so and so to be let go, and Motown said fine. Because they were on TV and were known as a Motown group, it would be crazy for Motown to let Martha hire and fire at will, things had to be cleared with Motown.[/QUOTE

Not exactly true. Motown producers used other singers on Martha & the Vandellas recordings as early as 1965. A Vandella did not necessarily have to be under comtract to Motown. After Betty Kelly was fired, Martha hired her sister Lois, who fulfilled contracts with Martha & Rosilind during the summer & fall of 1967. Lois did not sign a Motown contract immediately. The same thing occured with Scherrie Payne, who joined the Supremes in 1973, but did not sign a Motown contract until later [[around 1974).
Martha could hire & fire Vandellas as she desired. Motown allowed her to lead the group and when it checked out a replacement...only then was a contract offered. Sandra Tilley was needed immediately. The Vandellas had bookings to complete,. Since Sandra was already under contract, but the Velvelettes inactive, Martha hired her from within the company.

[smark21]

How about Ann Bogan coming into the Marvelettes to replace Gladys Horton when she left? Did Motown put her into the group or was she picked by Katherine and Wanda?

[marv2]

I wonder if Motown would have recorded Flo as they did David Ruffin?


They would have did what they had ABC do, oops, I meant what ABC Records decided to do on their own without any coercement from Motown and that is give her inferior material to record and then shelve the product!

[midnightman]

How about Ann Bogan coming into the Marvelettes to replace Gladys Horton when she left? Did Motown put her into the group or was she picked by Katherine and Wanda?

I would think Motown had a part in that.

[Motown_M_1056]

I would think Motown had a part in that.

According to Katherine Schaffner. She did ask for suggestions from within Motown and someone she was directed to Ann Bogan, who was under contract, but not doing anything. she says she auditioned Annand chose her..

[stingbeelee]

Hi Motown_M_1056:
I should have said that I was referring to Roz and Annette rather than all of the Vandellas. I am sure that Roz and Annette were under contract with Motown as Vandellas. Betty Kelly was under contract to Motown probably as a Velvelette? Sandra, I would think would have also been under contract with Motown, since she was already there. I'm not sure about Lois, but if Martha "hired" her in 1967, I am fairly sure that that would have had to have clearance from Motown. And how was Lois paid? Under the table? Fee per performance? With part of Martha's money? I cannot believe that in 1967, and after Berry thinking he had been "burned" by Mary Wells that they would have not quickly signed Lois to a contract.

[luke]

Annette in recent interview said the story of her leaving on her own was BS-will find article. I dont know if Vandellas any different from other groups with a lead singer who wanted someone out--ever hear of the Supremes??!!

[Motown_M_1056]

Hi Motown_M_1056:
I should have said that I was referring to Roz and Annette rather than all of the Vandellas. I am sure that Roz and Annette were under contract with Motown as Vandellas. Betty Kelly was under contract to Motown probably as a Velvelette? Sandra, I would think would have also been under contract with Motown, since she was already there. I'm not sure about Lois, but if Martha "hired" her in 1967, I am fairly sure that that would have had to have clearance from Motown. And how was Lois paid? Under the table? Fee per performance? With part of Martha's money? I cannot believe that in 1967, and after Berry thinking he had been "burned" by Mary Wells that they would have not quickly signed Lois to a contract.


There was probably a trial period in place to see how things were going to work out with Lois, to see if she could handle the workload, how she handled herself during concerts, etc. Remember the embarassment Motown & the Tempts faced when they announced Ricky Owens had replaced Eddie Kendricks only to take it back when Owens was dropped and Damon Harris was hired? I'm certain, there had to have been a trial period in place. It makes sense.

In 1967, Motown most likely found out about Betty Kelly's departure after the fact. Remember that summer, Motown issued the Vandellas' Llve LP with Betty Kelly still pictured on the cover. Riding High, a studio Lp with Lois on the cover was not issued until 1968. By that time, Lois had probably signed a contract with Motown. She was already under contract with Martha. How she was paid? I don't know.

[smark21]

I like to learn more about Ricky Owens brief tenure as a Temptation. How long did he last? Was he ever recorded with the group? Why did he get fired so fast? Why was he chosen to begin with given how quickly he was fired?

[marv2]

Annette in recent interview said the story of her leaving on her own was BS-will find article. I dont know if Vandellas any different from other groups with a lead singer who wanted someone out--ever hear of the Supremes??!!

Yeah, I've heard of them. In another thread here about Blues & Soul's "Motown Story" issue. In the article it states that Florence Ballard left the group to go solo and to pursue business interests outside of show business. About a year and a half earlier they were saying that Florence "left" to settle down and have a family.

[radionixon]

I believe it's Gloria Jean Williamson, and not "Williams" as per Wikipedia, though I'm prepared to be corrected!

If the late Vandellas story is an acrimonious minefield, the early Vandellas story is just a complete mess - no two sources, even primary sources, from people who were there at the time, are completely reconcilable with each other. I tried to untangle the whole thing a few weeks ago and come up with a narrative that made sense - which necessarily meant choosing, in quite a few places, to go with one recorded version of events over another - while talking about the "Saundra Mallett and the Vandellas" single:

Camel Walk [[http://motownjunkies.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/208/)

...which I then added to when discussing the first releases by "Martha and the Vandellas":

I'll Have To Let Him Go [[http://motownjunkies.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/223/)
My Baby Won't Come Back [[http://motownjunkies.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/224/)

...and then "the Vells":

You'll Never Cherish A Love So True [[Until You Lose It) [[http://motownjunkies.wordpress.com/2010/09/29/231/)
There He Is [[At My Door) [[http://motownjunkies.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/232/)

...but even then, there's still a lot of confusion, and I'm sure that some of what I've said is almost certainly wrong. A lot of the stuff that's been said over the last 50 years [[be it here in this thread, elsewhere on the Internet, in people's books, in interviews back in the Sixties, you name it) simply isn't possible when you look at some of the data that's since become available, most notably the studio recording dates and facsimile record orders in the TCMS 2 liner notes - and since almost 50 years have passed, I doubt there'll ever be a definitive, approved, "canon" version of events that everyone involved can agree on.

[mellow_q]

Midnightman said: "As for the former Vandellas, it's strange how we never hear of their dealings with Motown besides from Martha but I guess the media doesn't cover them as much as they do the Supremes, or even the Temptations [[to a lesser degree)."


Unlike most of the other Motown artists, when the Vandellas left the limelight [[Rosalind, Annette, Betty Kelley), they went and got regular jobs, worked them for 25-30-plus years, get a decent pension, are content, and have better [[dare I say "more positive") things to do with their lives than bitch about what may have happened 40 - 45 years ago.

By the way, from what I rememeber, I think it was Harvey Fuqua who recommended Ann to the Marvelettes.

Marc Taylor

[marv2]

Marc, you are right about Harvey introducing Ann Bogan to the Marvelettes.