A Question About 2 Separate Recordings By JIMMY RUFFIN & TAMMI TERRELL

[Methuselah2]

Maybe they're not so separate after all. What's the deal here?

Is this that ol' 'rose by any other name' I've always heard about?

No doubt this is not something new to many of you but it was a big surprise to me. I was familiar with Tammi's recording but not Jimmy's. Does anyone have any information about this? Thank you.

Jimmy Ruffin/HE WHO PICKS A ROSE
Written by Earl Smiley, Edward Holland, Jr., & Norman Whitfield--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnEvF1Hfzng

Tammi Terrell/I GOTTA FIND A WAY TO GET YOU BACK
Written by Cornelius Grant, Eddie Kendricks, Edward Holland, Jr., & Norman Whitfield--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65jXWTswRrw

[honest man]

Methuselah ,both brilliant songs ,our own Midnite Johnnie also done a remix duet of Tammi and Temptations versions excellent, check it out,lastly there is also Edwin 's version same lyrics as Jimmy.s. cheers

[Methuselah2]

Thanks very much, Honest Man, especially for the tip about Edwin's version. His seems to have a very different melody, one all its own. But I find it strange that Jimmy's and Tammi's versions used the same backing track, with Tammi's seemingly further embellished. And why re-title the tune to something completely different, let alone re-write the whole thing? From what I just located, Jimmy's version is noted as being the first recorded. I'm wondering now how often this type of complete lyric-overhaul--while retaining an existing backing track already used--was done at Motown. I know it wasn't unusual to re-use backing tracks--I just don't know about other instances of the lyrics and song title undergoing a total re-do and used with such a track.

[johnjeb]

Well, this was a surprise to me.

I was long aware of Edwin Starr's version which I thought was just OK.

Tammi's song I liked when I first heard it a few years ago on one of her CD collections. The Temptations version I stumbled upon through youtube or other SD threads. However, I can never remember the title until I see it on the CD.

I have Jimmy's anthology and probably recognized the tune but didn't connect it to Tammi's song. Did I notice a difference between Jimmy's and Edwin's versions? If I did it didn't stick in my memory!

That's the problem with binge buying and listening - a lot is missed. At least I know there are other hidden gems in my collection if and when I take the time to listen AND pay attention. But the brain cells seem to be drying up.

That said, can't wait for Martha's L&F, and the Four Tops set, and GC Cameron's Expanded CD and Finder's Keeper's and TCMS 12A & 12B..and...and...and...

[keith_h]

Methuselah, just to confuse things further, the Temptations also recorded 'He who picks a rose', as did a group called Carstairs on Okeh records, which was very popular in the UK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reMLjmsLauw

The Isley Brothers used Jimmy Ruffins backing track to 'What becomes of the brokenhearted to record an unreleased version, which they titled the same, but is NOT the same lyrics, which all hinge around the word 'smile'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9SVI_WTFWo

There are lots of other instances of the same backing track being used with different lyrics, on other record labels.

As for why Motown used different lyrics on the same track, I guess it's economical. If two writers come up with good lyrics, they try them both out and decide which is most likely to sell. The other version is put on an album, or unreleased.

Keith - London

[Methuselah2]

Johnjeb & Keith - Thanks very much for your input. Very interesting findings and ideas to consider. At times, it feels like an archaeological expedition with some of these recordings. Interesting artifacts and surprising remnants continually surface--and sometimes they're very difficult to figure out how and why they ever happened.

[honest man]

[]

Ha well you learn something everyday i never knew The Temptations recorded HWPAR ,i have album but the song never jumped out at me,will add to my Temptations cdrs,thanks for the nod, cheers.

[no_place_like_motown]

Methuselash2,

Here's another one I just remembered: Marvelettes "Only Your Love Can Save Me" was also covered by Marvin & Tammi as "This Poor Heart Of Mine" - same band track w/ different lyrics.

[reese]

Methuselash2,

Here's another one I just remembered: Marvelettes "Only Your Love Can Save Me" was also covered by Marvin & Tammi as "This Poor Heart Of Mine" - same band track w/ different lyrics.

On this one, both the lyrics [[slightly) and the track are different. The Marvelettes' version is faster.

[soulwally]

What about this conundrum - and it's all Norman Whitfield's fault again...

* No Man Can Love Her Like I Do, by the Tempts, appears on their Wish It Would Rain album.

* The same lyrics are used to a different backing track for I Know How To Love Her, by Jimmy Ruffin, released on his Ultimate Motown Collection [[previously unreleased).

* THAT backing track is the same as used for the Tempts' version of Too Busy Thinking About My Baby [[Gettin Ready album). And Jimmy has a version of Too Busy.. using that same track, also on Ultimate Collection [[previously unreleased).

*And, of course, there's the version of Too Busy... by Marvin Gaye, using another backing track.

[Methuselah2]

Methuselash2,

Here's another one I just remembered: Marvelettes "Only Your Love Can Save Me" was also covered by Marvin & Tammi as "This Poor Heart Of Mine" - same band track w/ different lyrics.

Nplm - That's quite a find! That really took a lot of observation on your part. I wouldn't have spotted it--but you certainly did.

Perhaps there should next be a series put out: AN ATTICFUL OF RE-DOs.

I can understand writing new lyrics and then publicizing that fact. But why change a title once a song has been recorded and is on the books? I'd love to know the rationale for it.

Thanks very much for noting these two. Here they are:

Marvelettes/ONLY YOUR LOVE CAN SAVE ME--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIrPG0NBik8

Marvin & Tammi/THIS POOR HEART OF MINE--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI4_3YaYSnY

[Methuselah2]

What about this conundrum - and it's all Norman Whitfield's fault again...

* No One Can Love Her Like I Do, by the Tempts, appears on their Cloud Nine album.

* The same lyrics are used to a different backing track for I Know How To Love Her, by Jimmy Ruffin, released on his Ultimate Motown Collection [[previously unreleased).

* THAT backing track is the same as used for the Tempts' version of Too Busy Thinking About My Baby [[Gettin Ready album). And Jimmy has a version of Too Busy.. using that same track, also on Ultimate Collection [[previously unreleased).

*And, of course, there's the version of Too Busy... by Marvin Gaye, using another backing track.

Thank you, Soulwally. That's pretty fascinating. Really quite something. I see another new collection on the horizon: IT'S THE SAME OLD SONG--OR WAS: A Hundred Variations and Uses for One Song.

[soulwally]

Meth: Note I've edited my post to give the correct title and album for the Tempts' No Man Can Love Her Like Her Do

[mysterysinger]

How about
Tammi Terrell - I Can't Go On Without You
Diana Ross & The Supremes - Little Bright Star

[roger]

How about these two from KIM WESTON ..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtdFy_3EWRQ

And .. "I'll Never See My Love Again" ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=646GhY-TFMM

:)

Roger

[roger]

Not to mention ..

MARTHA & THE VANDELLAS .. "Show Me The Way" ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUKJxUVgRv4

and ..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzHKRDQRgVw

LOL .. :)

Roger

[roger]

Or Even

This one by THE TEMPTATIONS ..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5HRFtNufgU

and ..

THE TEMPTATIONS - "Everybody Needs Love" ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THit1Xyhoe4&playnext=1&list=PLQYiY88qhTCYXQP2kNFx3BCjmp5no9P3H&feature=results_video

Which has the same backing track as the version by JIMMY RUFFIN ..

:)

Roger

[roger]

And the backing tracks that escaped .. such as ..

BRENDA HOLLOWAY .. "Keep On Rolling" ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLUorQRYjNw

Which got regurgitated as ..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnWILWUiQts

:)

Roger

[Methuselah2]

How about
Tammi Terrell - I Can't Go On Without You
Diana Ross & The Supremes - Little Bright Star

Excellent, MysterySinger - Absolutely a match!

Tammi/I CAN'T GO ON WITHOUT YOU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWcfvULTcZY

Supremes/LITTLE BRIGHT STAR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDb9yQci3wE

[Methuselah2]

Roger - All of your couplings are matches! I was not ready! I mean it. Holy cow--What is going on?!

This seems to beg the question: IS THERE A SONG THAT EXISTS ONLY ONCE AS IS? Really.

I can understand Motown creating multiple versions with changed titles and lyrics. But to use both as if they were separate, individual recordings? That's the part I can't understand or reconcile.

And now, AIN'T THAT LOVE ENOUGH. How did that happen? I have to wonder what's behind that one.

"Hey, Ma--THEY'RE PLAYIN' MY SONG! LITERALLY. AND IT AIN'T QUITE MY SONG!" Help me, Rhonda. Help, help me, Rhonda.

[mysterysinger]

There are many instances of backing tracks being re-used for the same song, fewer with a different song though. They're often done as specials though like Supremes - "We Couldn't Get Along Without You" for example.

Just as interesting are the same songs given different treatments - obvious ones being "I Heard It Through The Grapevine" or "This Old Heart Of Mine". Not forgetting those tunes that have a double life as both vocal and intrumental - "Festival Time"/"To Win Your Heart" etc.

[keith_h]

Methuselah, with regard to the Larry Atkins track using the Brenda Holloway backing track, she recorded all of her tracks in LA, mainly with Frank Wilson, and in this case Marc Gordon. They also worked for other labels, so I assume that is how the Larry Atkins track came about, although they didn't get a writers credit on the label. They also cut 'Ain't that love enough' on a superb female singer, Ty Karim, for the same label, and using the same backing track.

Another Detroit link to the same writers is via Darrel Banks' 'Somebody, somewhere needs you'.
They also recorded Ike & Tina Turner on this track, but with a different backing track, but then used the same backing track as Ike & Tina on a song called 'Lighten up baby' by both Larry Laster and Ty Karim. Now that's economy!!!

[144man]

Would every song with a working title have had complete lyrics written for them under the name of that working title, and would they have been recorded as such?

[Methuselah2]

Methuselah, with regard to the Larry Atkins track using the Brenda Holloway backing track, she recorded all of her tracks in LA, mainly with Frank Wilson, and in this case Marc Gordon. They also worked for other labels, so I assume that is how the Larry Atkins track came about, although they didn't get a writers credit on the label. They also cut 'Ain't that love enough' on a superb female singer, Ty Karim, for the same label, and using the same backing track.

Another Detroit link to the same writers is via Darrel Banks' 'Somebody, somewhere needs you'.
They also recorded Ike & Tina Turner on this track, but with a different backing track, but then used the same backing track as Ike & Tina on a song called 'Lighten up baby' by both Larry Laster and Ty Karim. Now that's economy!!!

Keith - Thanks very much for the info regarding the Larry Atkins recording. Very interesting. And now I'm about to check out YouTube for Ty Karim. Thanks for the tip--hadn't heard of her before.

[Methuselah2]

Would every song with a working title have had complete lyrics written for them under the name of that working title, and would they have been recorded as such?

144man - That's a really good point. And it could explain how a lot of these recordings came to be. I just wonder how the various versions of a single tune got to have their versions used, as well, and within such a close time period, too. I think your question may actually be what was done. But it's the usage of the different versions that puzzles me now. I'm fine with cover versions; these other versions that all got to be used--that perplexes me. I guess it wasn't quite re-cycling. Or was it?