Supremes/Andantes question [[yes another one)

[floyjoy678]

Anyone know how I can contact someone from hip-o who handles the Supremes releases that I can ask a question about a certain song and if they can confirm my suspicions? I'd rather not post about it and cause all hell to break loose between everyone.

[jobeterob]

Andy and George are on Facebook; Andy is there regularly; you can correspond privately there.

Not quite sure that they want any more touchy information out there; a lot of people don't care much but a for a few fans, it's like another Meteor hits.

[franjoy56]

Anyone know how I can contact someone from hip-o who handles the Supremes releases that I can ask a question about a certain song and if they can confirm my suspicions? I'd rather not post about it and cause all hell to break loose between everyone.

Why is everyone always so focued on what songs the Andantes did with and or for the Supremes, the Supremes were an institution and Mary Flo, Diana,Cindy, Linda, Scherrie, Jean and Susaye sang a hell of a lot of songs in their day of recording, so what if the Andantes sang or sweetend some of those songs why not focus on what they did for other artists more abundantly like the Four Tops,Mary Wells, Kim Weston Marvin Gaye The Vandellas after 1966, and especially the Marvelettes after Wanda took the lead. The background voices of the Supremes are relervant on the bulk of their music and that is what is important.

[floyjoy678]

jobeterob I'm very open to the subject of the Andantes taking the Supremes' places on some of the songs and it doesn't take anything away from Mary and Florence and Cindy to me. Mary and Florence are still on the majority of the recordings and Cindy did her fair share in the studio.
And franjoy I'm very intrigued by whole Andantes taking the Supremes places. Like I said above to me it doesn't take anything away from any of the ladies or the songs. And there are some fans who don't want to hear it which is why I chose not to post about what song I think it is.

[jobeterob]

Fran and Floy, you are both right. It doesn't matter anything to 99.9% of the population and most of them couldn't even name 3 Supremes let alone 9. And regardless of who sang on what, in concert and on tv for many years, Diana Ross and the Supremes were the top of the game from 1964 to 1969.

But it is of interest to a few hundred fans and as time has gone on, it is more and more clear the Andantes did an awful lot for a lot of groups and we are having more people speak out about it - much like Ralph recently did.

The reason it matters more for the Supremes and Diana Ross is the old animosity between Ross and Wilson and that continues amongst some fans if not between Ross and Wilson; some Wilson fans seem to think this is the final nail in the coffin of Wilson and reducing her importance to not much so their disbelief is intense; but she still sang out there day after day with Diana for several years and has survived and performs to this day.

[Methuselah2]

For me, my wanting to know 'who's who' on the recordings is strictly out of a sense of "giving credit where credit is due." Unfortunately, long overdue, perhaps. And the fact that certain artists and their recordings have always been important and meaningful to me only heightens my wanting to know. But I'm not referring to their personal lives--I specifically mean what they produced. And, in some instances as are coming to light, didn't. Or didn't quite. At this point in time, nothing can change the recordings as I first heard them. But I'm very interested in learning about the context in which they were made. Could that knowledge affect how I once felt about those recordings? Actually, it has. To a degree. But I'm not afraid of that happening and I feel no need to avoid the truth in order to avoid that from happening again. I'll always have the memories of time and place, as well as the memories of how things felt at the time and place. The truth's the truth, and I can't think of a single instance when it hasn't been better to know what that was. I'd love the record--literally--set straight.

[smark21]

I think the uncredited use [[at the time) of Andantes in place of group members on Supremes, Vandellas, Marvelettes, and Velvelettes recordings raises a number of troubling ethical issues which is why there may be such a hub-bub on the boards such as SDF. These ethical issues include deception of fans and consumer fraud, as well as the fact that by using the Andantes instead of the actual group members, producers were denying the chance for members shut out of the session to practice their craft and create their art.

[midnight johnny]

It amazes me that Motown fans take it so personally that the Andantes were not only used as "sweetening" but filled in for the actualgroup members. There is nothing personal about it. Whomever was used for whatever reason was merely part of the creative process. Also, it wasn't unusual for record companies to use background singers and not credit them. And clearly, one reason why the Andantes were used had to do with fact that the Andantes could vocalize in ways that the group members couldn't. And that was the producer's call. The producers were looking for a particular sound. I never read any complaints about the fact that on a number of the tracks that Ashford and Simpson produced, Supremes or Vandellas or Marvelettes didn't back up the lead singer.....Ashford and Simpson did, and nothing was on the album credits about that[[Some Things You Never get Used To, Keep An Eye, Destination Anywhere, We're a Winner.........).

[Kamasu_Jr]

Well said, Midnight Johnny. I don't care. The Andantes sang on many Supremes sessions. It is no big deal to me. It does not diminish for me what Mary, Florence or Cindy contributed. They got the fame, some of the money and the glamour, while the Andantes got paid union scale or better than that and remained in obscurity for years. I think former Motown producer Clay McMurray explained why some producers chose to use the Andantes. The producers and musicians were usually under the gun to get product ready; the artists were often on the road and it was just faster and easier to sometimes have the Andantes add vocal parts to tracks that Diana Ross or Jean Terrell would come in do their leads for. It wasn't some evil conspiracy.

[Methuselah2]

One's interest in all of this need not be because something's being taken personally. But the discussion about it seems to get personal when SDF members take issue with other members having the interest. Is there no room for that interest because someone else doesn't share in it? Now, that I find interesting. Very.

I go along with the "creative process" angle of the use of The Andantes as background vocals. But I think the lines started to blur when they were used as substitutes for the artists. It became a very slippery slope, and perhaps it gave way to the possibility of something like the use of Valerie Simpson's voice for that of Tammi Terrell. Or the marketing strategy that was called into play for an album that was eventually titled THE RETURN OF THE MARVELETTES. And if royalties were involved for the recording artists, well then--Who exactly were considered the recording artists on those products at that point?

I have said previously in other threads that I don't think the use of substitutions was a deliberate attempt at misleading consumers when it began; the need for expediency or possible artistic concerns seem much more likely to have been controlling factors. But at some point, things appear to have escalated. And looking at them now, it may seem possible to some that the emphasis had shifted to "protecting the brand" or doing what was needed to continue "cashing in" on that proven brand. I know nothing about Intellectual Property Law. But people seem to know prime real estate as soon as they see it--wherever it may be.

I don't present any of this as hard facts--merely questions and possibilities and opinions. And I've always thought SDF was a place for that. Wrong, again?

[jobeterob]

You say what you want, Methuselah. Your opinion is as valuable as anyone elses; if some people don't like to hear it, that is their problem.

I agree with Kamasu and MJ. It is not that big a deal that the Andantes are on a lot of recordings. It happened.

These singers had contracts or jobs with Motown to do certain things. The Andantes were background session singers paid by the session. It may have been what looks like a very small amount these days. But that was their deal with Motown.

There was no deliberate attempt to hide the fact they were being Supremes, Vandellas, and Marvelettes. The same kind of filling in went on at every other record company. What makes it an issue is that Motown was huge; Motown will be on Broadway; Motown spawned some huge music figures ~ Ross, Wonder, Jackson, Gaye, Robinson. So people are interested. And the music has lasted. So who contributed what is of interest.

To acknowledge the Andantes now, like is being done in Detroit, is kind and proper.

[ralpht]

A case can be made that Motown music has withstood the test of time simply because of the methods used to put out an outstanding record.

[thanxal]

I don't agree at all that it doesn't matter whether or not the Andantes are on the disc. From the standpoint of your personal musical tastes and your relationship to the concept of "The Supremes" it may not matter, but from a legal and ethical point-of-view it is fundamentally fraud.

There is a basic premise of consumer protection that consumers are entitled to get the product they think they are buying. By substituting the Andantes for one or more of the Supremes without informing the buying public, Motown committed a bait-and-switch fraud on the public. It's too bad such laws didn't apply to the music industry at the time as many record companies did such things. If it wasn't such a big deal, then why didn't Motown line up the Andantes behind the Supremes in any public performance of Love Child or SWBT? The answer is that Motown was cultivating and selling an image that did not correspond with what it put on its vinyl. That's fraud, pure and simple. Whether or not it was industry practice at the time is beside the point. I try to avoid these heated debates about Supremes vs. Andantes vs. Diana Ross, but on the narrow ground of fraud, its pretty clear to me that any substitution of the Andantes for the Supremes without disclosure constitutes a fraudulent act, at least by today's standards.

Which led me to another thought - I wonder if this explains why UMG is crediting the Andantes on recent Supremes sets - because they are legally obligated to do so. Why would they risk upsetting the Supremes fan base and therefore subsequent market? The laws on credit in the music industry have tightened significantly since the 1960s. Does UMG fear being sued? Before consumers go trying to sue Motown, do know you have to show damage, which would be nearly impossible in this case, but surely not in the case of the Andantes. They could clearly show damages from royalties.

So it may not matter to you personally, but it is an issue.

[Methuselah2]

A case can be made that Motown music has withstood the test of time simply because of the methods used to put out an outstanding record.

Well, that just might be. But I feel--in principle--that the ends don't justify the means. I'm not referring specifically to Motown; I mean in general.

[Methuselah2]

Thanxal - Very pointed and studied observations on your part. And very well stated. My thanx2u for your opinion and the issues you addressed.

[midnight johnny]

I don't agree at all that it doesn't matter whether or not the Andantes are on the disc. From the standpoint of your personal musical tastes and your relationship to the concept of "The Supremes" it may not matter, but from a legal and ethical point-of-view it is fundamentally fraud.

There is a basic premise of consumer protection that consumers are entitled to get the product they think they are buying. By substituting the Andantes for one or more of the Supremes without informing the buying public, Motown committed a bait-and-switch fraud on the public. It's too bad such laws didn't apply to the music industry at the time as many record companies did such things. If it wasn't such a big deal, then why didn't Motown line up the Andantes behind the Supremes in any public performance of Love Child or SWBT? The answer is that Motown was cultivating and selling an image that did not correspond with what it put on its vinyl. That's fraud, pure and simple. Whether or not it was industry practice at the time is beside the point. I try to avoid these heated debates about Supremes vs. Andantes vs. Diana Ross, but on the narrow ground of fraud, its pretty clear to me that any substitution of the Andantes for the Supremes without disclosure constitutes a fraudulent act, at least by today's standards.

Which led me to another thought - I wonder if this explains why UMG is crediting the Andantes on recent Supremes sets - because they are legally obligated to do so. Why would they risk upsetting the Supremes fan base and therefore subsequent market? The laws on credit in the music industry have tightened significantly since the 1960s. Does UMG fear being sued? Before consumers go trying to sue Motown, do know you have to show damage, which would be nearly impossible in this case, but surely not in the case of the Andantes. They could clearly show damages from royalties.

So it may not matter to you personally, but it is an issue.


thanxal...I really don't agree with most of your above post. But your question about why
UMe is acknowleging the Andantes on the literature accompanying more recent releases...I truly can't speak for Harry or Andy. But I will say that I am totally supportive of
the truth about who was involved in what recording being finally unveiled. For too long, the Andantes did not get credit for the magnificent work they did. I think your suggestion
about legal issues as being the reason is jumping the gun.
And I will point out, one more time, Motown using background singers without crediting them was a practice usual in the the music industry as a whole.

[midnightman]

It amazes me that Motown fans take it so personally that the Andantes were not only used as "sweetening" but filled in for the actualgroup members. There is nothing personal about it. Whomever was used for whatever reason was merely part of the creative process. Also, it wasn't unusual for record companies to use background singers and not credit them. And clearly, one reason why the Andantes were used had to do with fact that the Andantes could vocalize in ways that the group members couldn't. And that was the producer's call. The producers were looking for a particular sound. I never read any complaints about the fact that on a number of the tracks that Ashford and Simpson produced, Supremes or Vandellas or Marvelettes didn't back up the lead singer.....Ashford and Simpson did, and nothing was on the album credits about that[[Some Things You Never get Used To, Keep An Eye, Destination Anywhere, We're a Winner.........).

Also, we forget that this was actually commonplace in the industry. It wasn't a unique Motown situation. Need I remind people of Darlene Love, the Crystals, the Ronettes [[Cher sung on most of that group's background vocal sessions) and the Ikettes?

Also, it seems not too many people wonder why the Andantes were used on recordings by the Vandellas, Marvelettes and Velvelettes. So why are the SUPREMES singled out?

[ralpht]

Methuselah,
I appreciate your altruistic interest in the nature of recording methods. The sad truth is, Motown wasn't alone in the way things were being done. It was simply easier to work with people that could deliver on the spot and be assured of the quality that these sessions would end up bringing. There was no doubt that some of these artists could not hack the performance. Hell, they would have to do that in public appearances. And, for the most part, no one would hear the difference due to the dynamic of a live performance. So in the end , it is a win win situation. Think about it: The movie industry uses a stunt double when good old James Bond gets in one of his jams. That is pretty much common knowledge, but it doesn't distract from enjoying the movie.
I'm just sayin'....

[I ♥ The Supremes and Temptations]

I'm going to be honest... I personally don't see the big deal about the Andantes singing on the Supremes songs.. I mean Mary and Flo still had to perform the songs which is a way bigger task than just recording! ...So I don't get the problem

[ralpht]

Exactly!.....

[Jimi LaLumia]

and for those who remember the Ross statement from decades ago, when, talking about the studio, she said "after all, I'm the one who does all the work..", well, now we know what she was talking about..
and she deserves credit for grace under fire, for never going public with this info during the period of Mary Wilson's "Dreamgirl..." book.. Ross could have shot her down with one simple statement ..."You're not even on most of the records!"....but she didn't..

[Methuselah2]

And I will point out, one more time, Motown using background singers without crediting them was a practice usual in the the music industry as a whole.

And so? Motown deserves their shot at tradition? You're not serious with re-stating this point, are you?

[midnight johnny]

and for those who remember the Ross statement from decades ago, when, talking about the studio, she said "after all, I'm the one who does all the work..", well, now we know what she was talking about..
and she deserves credit for grace under fire, for never going public with this info during the period of Mary Wilson's "Dreamgirl..." book.. Ross could have shot her down with one simple statement ..."You're not even on most of the records!"....but she didn't..

Very good point, Jimi!

[floyjoy678]

Well saying she's not on most of the records is going a little too far. What I can think of off the top of my head of the Andantes replacing the Supremes [[Mary and Flo era) are...
"Run, Run, Run"
"Stop! In the Name of Love" [[although I think it's both Mary and Florence with the Andantes, Louvain said recently it's them but she also could hear Florence on the song)
"You Can't Hurry Love"
Now that's only [[and possibly) 3 single releases out of 16 from 1961-1967. Now then there are songs where the Andantes are on them but Mary and Florence are on there too like "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone". The song I'm wondering about is from the Jean, Mary and Cindy era and I can't believe it's never been brought up before.

[midnightman]

and for those who remember the Ross statement from decades ago, when, talking about the studio, she said "after all, I'm the one who does all the work..", well, now we know what she was talking about..
and she deserves credit for grace under fire, for never going public with this info during the period of Mary Wilson's "Dreamgirl..." book.. Ross could have shot her down with one simple statement ..."You're not even on most of the records!"....but she didn't..

Her silence surely spoke a lot of volumes. It's a shame because people think the Supremes were set apart from other groups. In truth, except for being allegedly more glamorous and having the top writing team of the decade besides Phil Spector, Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry [[and Goffin-King), they weren't when it came to what went on behind the scenes.

[midnightman]

Well saying she's not on most of the records is going a little too far. What I can think of off the top of my head of the Andantes replacing the Supremes [[Mary and Flo era) are...
"Run, Run, Run"
"Stop! In the Name of Love" [[although I think it's both Mary and Florence with the Andantes, Louvain said recently it's them but she also could hear Florence on the song)
"You Can't Hurry Love"
Now that's only [[and possibly) 3 single releases out of 16 from 1961-1967. Now then there are songs where the Andantes are on them but Mary and Florence are on there too like "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone". The song I'm wondering about is from the Jean, Mary and Cindy era and I can't believe it's never been brought up before.

Well if it's from JMC, name it. Whatever happens will happen...

[floyjoy678]

Alright well again I'm not trying to start trouble or anything but I listened to a mix of "Stoned Love" on youtube where it was just the background vocals and music and I'm sorry but it sounded very Andante-ish to me. It sounded like there was another set of vocals buried underneath which maybe is Mary and Cindy. Again this is just what I'm hearing with my ears if you don't like it don't attack me.

[jobeterob]

Motown hired the Andantes to do session work and paid them as they paid the Funk Brothers - by the session. There was no legal obligation to pay royalties.

Because the music has been so successful and has flourished for so long, perhaps a case might be mounted saying there "should have been" some obligation outside the contract to pay some kind of royalty. The trouble is that the sales are not there anymore and the royalties would never in 100 years cover the potential legal fees to mount such a challenge ~ because it is a huge leap of faith to think it would be successful.

If Motown had used Andantes/others on monster hits throughout the 60's, including the two biggest Diana Ross/Supremes songs of all time [[Someday & Love Child), why would they stop when the producers thought they were getting a better product with the Andantes or other fill ins? They didn't stop and there was every good reason not to.

[skooldem1]

It is a big deal to some Supreme fans simply because of their dislike of Diana Ross. When I first came on the web and into different forums I would read things like, "I don't even listen to who is singing lead, because I like the background vocals". Their constant reminder of how the world fell in love with 3 girls not just one. How it wasn't about just Diana, it was about HDH, The Funk Brothers, and Mary and Flo/Cindy's background vocals. Anything to diminish Diana's role in their success, and play up others roles. In their minds they feel as if the lead singer of the group gets too much glory, and too much recognition. For years some Motown fans have been on a [[well deserved) crusade in some cases, to let the world know that Motown wasn't about The Queen of Motown- Diana Ross, but all about everything else behind the scenes and how they also deserved recognition. They fought for this when they didn't know that the Andantes [[more than they realized) where on those records in the background. Some of their whole existence's rely on the fact that Mary and Flo sang on all those songs right along with Diana Ross- who is on every number one record the Supreme's had. It shakes some of them to the core now knowing or suspecting that they weren't. Think about it. The Funks have gotten their recognition and now it is time for the Andantes. But why aren't these Supreme fans in their corner now?

[Methuselah2]

Ralph - I don't think altruism has anything to do with my position. I think I understand why Motown did some of the things we're discussing. I simply think they may have raised it to a level that makes it questionable. My point of reference is now time--looking at something 50 years later. I don't regret or lament any purchase of any Motown product I've ever made. But my take on some of those products has changed a bit because of some things that have come to light. I'm sure that's a concern for those in the industry or were in the industry or those in contact with those still in the industry. But for me as a consumer, something has been somewhat lessened. If part of my enjoyment was directly impacted by whom I always thought was on a recording, how could it not change in some way upon learning conclusively that it was someone else? I'm not saying such a recording is no longer appreciated or liked. I'm saying I don't feel quite the same way about it as I once did. I don't feel like the rug has been pulled out from beneath me. I feel like I didn't know who was singing when I thought I did, and admired them specifically for their singing. And, therefore, it raises further doubts about other recordings. I'm glad to know what's been revealed. It's just been a long time coming in some circumstances. I like a group as a group. And over time, each member came to have a particular importance to me. But the group was the over-riding effect of what I experienced. Or so I thought I had experienced.

[skooldem1]

I have always suspected that records released by groups had different singers in the background "on record". All one had to do was look at live appearances and see how in almost all cases, the background never sounds the same. Even today- although there isn't much to go on because groups are out of style now. But even in the 90's. TLC wasn't singing background vocals. New Kids on the Block, The Backstreet Boys and N-sync weren't singing background vocals on record. Aside from the lead singers- Jodeci never sounded the same live. Yes they could all sing, but they never sounded as smooth as the records. This is a common practice in the music industry. I think that the "Motown Sound" was just like what Phil Spector did with his "Wall of Sound". It was the sound that they were selling on record. The groups had to go out there live and do it but the released material was all about the sound. I don't see how some can get so offended talking about deception and fraud. Like mentioned earlier, in movies they do the same thing with body doubles. It is the business of show business and not really all that deep.

[ralpht]

Methuselah,
Believe me, I sympathize with your position. I wish it could be the way we have been discussing. As a producer, I can assure you there is no greater thrill than working with exceptionally talented people. If at times, substitutes were brought in, it was just done. I would much prefer to work with a self contained group that had the opportunity to do it all. I suppose it is possible to consider that the Supremes own fame kind of sunk things if for no other reason than timing. They were hot and product needed to be delivered. No time to spend in the studio other than to get the product out. So maybe they were short changed.

[bradsupremes]

Well saying she's not on most of the records is going a little too far. What I can think of off the top of my head of the Andantes replacing the Supremes [[Mary and Flo era) are...
"Run, Run, Run"
"Stop! In the Name of Love" [[although I think it's both Mary and Florence with the Andantes, Louvain said recently it's them but she also could hear Florence on the song)
"You Can't Hurry Love"
Now that's only [[and possibly) 3 single releases out of 16 from 1961-1967. Now then there are songs where the Andantes are on them but Mary and Florence are on there too like "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone". The song I'm wondering about is from the Jean, Mary and Cindy era and I can't believe it's never been brought up before.

Mary Wilson is very much on "You Can't Hurry Love." It's her and Marlene Barrow. As for "Stoned Love," it's Mary and Cindy only. No Andantes. I'm pretty good at recognizing the Andantes' sound, but I don't hear it here. In 1969 Motown switched to 16 track tapes which allowed more space to get extra vocals/instrumentation, etc. As in the case for "Stoned Love," Frank Wilson most likely had Mary and Cindy record their vocals twice which created a fuller background sound. One of the background tracks may be more prominent than the other.

[jobeterob]

I can't believe it.........but I thought the Johnny Bristol part on SWBT was Mary Wilson; and I don't know how I could ever have thought her and Cindy were making that initial "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" in Love Child, because it is so clearly not them. But I thought so at the time. And I have no idea what I was thinking about on Just Ask the Lonely and some of those Four Tops records ~ probably something like they had an Eddie Kendricks type of voice buried somewhere back in that group.

I really didn't care then; and other than historical accuracy, I don't really care now. But it makes you wonder why we have never heard one word from Diana Ross about those records; well I guess once she did say "she's out there singing my songs". And again, I had no idea what that meant.

[mysterysinger]

Personally I don't ind who sang on the records but I have a more practical if slightly naive query. If The Andantes made the released version of a song, and were paid a session fee only, was it the case that the "real" Supremes, say, got the royalties for the sales etc or did they also lose out by virtue of not appearing on the record? In which case more $ for Motown? If the "real" Supremes, say, did get the royalties, did they get "charged" for the recording session they didn't appear at or was it a win win for them i.e. they got the royalties but not the recording session charges? Just that I think I read somewhere that the artists had recording costs deducted from their royalty cheques? Do you know the answers Ralph?

[LuvHangOva]

I don't care if 100 record companies used the same practices.
Andantes as "The Marvelettes", Andantes as "The Vandellas", Andantes as "The Supremes", Valerie Simpson as Tammi Terrell [[especially on "You're All I Need To Get By") = FRAUD because that is NOT what I paid for.

It doesnt change my love for the image and magic of Motown but it is disappointing because I was lied to.

The actual product is different than the ingredients listed on the label. [[If u are substituting the ham in the omelette I ordered with some meat I have never heard of because it's less of an inconvenience for you ..ummmm 'scuse me, would you mind telling me?)

[ralpht]

Mystery,
All session costs are deducted from any royalties realized by the artist. Until that debt is satisfied the artist gets nothing. This was one of the major beefs that had Gladys Knight leaving the label. Too many producers were allowed top take a shot at her and her studio tab was becoming enormous. Later on we would amend that to protect an artist from an over abundance of production.

[marv2]

Personally I don't ind who sang on the records but I have a more practical if slightly naive query. If The Andantes made the released version of a song, and were paid a session fee only, was it the case that the "real" Supremes, say, got the royalties for the sales etc or did they also lose out by virtue of not appearing on the record? In which case more $ for Motown? If the "real" Supremes, say, did get the royalties, did they get "charged" for the recording session they didn't appear at or was it a win win for them i.e. they got the royalties but not the recording session charges? Just that I think I read somewhere that the artists had recording costs deducted from their royalty cheques? Do you know the answers Ralph?

In the case of the Supremes, they had to be paid royalties if there were any. According to their contracts, it was illegal for Motown to replace any of them on record or in live performance if they were capable of working.

[marv2]

and for those who remember the Ross statement from decades ago, when, talking about the studio, she said "after all, I'm the one who does all the work..", well, now we know what she was talking about..
and she deserves credit for grace under fire, for never going public with this info during the period of Mary Wilson's "Dreamgirl..." book.. Ross could have shot her down with one simple statement ..."You're not even on most of the records!"....but she didn't..

First of all she couldn't do that because that was not the truth. Also, Mary Wilson could have completely destroyed her. I will not comment further on this subject.

[reese]

I can't believe it.........but I thought the Johnny Bristol part on SWBT was Mary Wilson; and I don't know how I could ever have thought her and Cindy were making that initial "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" in Love Child, because it is so clearly not them. But I thought so at the time. And I have no idea what I was thinking about on Just Ask the Lonely and some of those Four Tops records ~ probably something like they had an Eddie Kendricks type of voice buried somewhere back in that group.

I really didn't care then; and other than historical accuracy, I don't really care now. But it makes you wonder why we have never heard one word from Diana Ross about those records; well I guess once she did say "she's out there singing my songs". And again, I had no idea what that meant.

Diana mentioned that she was the only Supreme on SOMEDAY WE'LL BE TOGETHER in her book SECRETS OF A SPARROW. Of course, in the case of that recording, the background vocals were already recorded for Jr. Walker before the track got to her.

In a 90s LEARS magazine article, she mentioned that she recorded some Supremes songs with "other girls".

[midnightman]

^ Now that you mention it, the 1969 version of "Someday" does sound like it was produced with Junior in mind... remember, Johnny wrote "What Does It Take to Win Your Love" for him and another song, "Gotta Hold On to This Feeling" [[released after "Someday"). But I see how the version was edited for the Supremes version. Extra instrumentation was probably taken out where Junior would've played a sax solo on it.

[144man]

I don't care if 100 record companies used the same practices.
Andantes as "The Marvelettes", Andantes as "The Vandellas", Andantes as "The Supremes", Valerie Simpson as Tammi Terrell [[especially on "You're All I Need To Get By") = FRAUD because that is NOT what I paid for.

It doesnt change my love for the image and magic of Motown but it is disappointing because I was lied to.

The actual product is different than the ingredients listed on the label. [[If u are substituting the ham in the omelette I ordered with some meat I have never heard of because it's less of an inconvenience for you ..ummmm 'scuse me, would you mind telling me?)

I don't think it was fraud at all. I think it's just the way it was. To try to impose present-day standards retrospectively on events that happened nearly fifty years ago is unreasonable and ultimately futile.

[midnightman]

Mystery,
All session costs are deducted from any royalties realized by the artist. Until that debt is satisfied the artist gets nothing. This was one of the major beefs that had Gladys Knight leaving the label. Too many producers were allowed top take a shot at her and her studio tab was becoming enormous. Later on we would amend that to protect an artist from an over abundance of production.

It's crazy how things went back then.

[smark21]

Another ethical issue that comes up is that once the song was recorded, the group might have been asked to go on TV to lipsynch to the recording which The Supremes certainly had to do as they were a popular TV act. So not only were Mary and Flo/Cindy excluded from the recording session, they had to go on TV and move their lips to someone else’s voices thus making them complicit in pulling one over on the audience who wouldn’t know any better. Same applies for the other groups. And such things can tarnish and hurt those directly impacted. In Marc Taylor’s book on The Marvelettes, Katherine Anderson states that when asked to appear for the photo shoot of the Return of the Marvelettes album cover, she turned it down saying in effect, ‘I wasn’t good enough for you to ask me to sing on the album so why should I appear on the cover’. The ends may justify the means in the business world where the overriding goal is to get the product out and make it a hit, but that doesn’t mean people aren’t hurt and deceived in the process or that those who played a role in creating the product have to reckon on some level or another for the role they played in committing consumer fraud and denying creative individuals a chance to perform their art and show their talent in the recording studio.

AS for why the Andantes are an especially sore subject amongst Supremes fans, well as we know the fan wars amongst various factions of The Supremes fan base can be very ugly and bitter. Some of Diana Ross most unhinged and mentally unsound fans have been to known to marginalized Florence, Mary and Cindy as untalented. In response, some of Mary, Flo and Cindy’s most unhinged and mentally unsound fans responded by claiming the records sold due to the M/F/C’s background vocals and that the leads weren’t important. Now we know the Andantes sang on more records in place of the real Supremes than previously thought so some of the glassy eyed Ross fans are lording it over fans of the other Supremes. It’s all very silly and childish.

But nevertheless, the use of The Andantes in place of the real Supremes and real Vandellas and real Marvelettes and real Velvelettes is a genuine ethical dilemma that all parties—producers, artists, performers, and fans alike—must grapple with.

[midnightman]

^ I do remember when Katherine said that and on that aspect I do agree with her.

[midnightman]

Alright well again I'm not trying to start trouble or anything but I listened to a mix of "Stoned Love" on youtube where it was just the background vocals and music and I'm sorry but it sounded very Andante-ish to me. It sounded like there was another set of vocals buried underneath which maybe is Mary and Cindy. Again this is just what I'm hearing with my ears if you don't like it don't attack me.

That's Mary and Cindy. Apparently Frank Wilson got them to do the background vocals twice to give a full voiced effect. He thought the one take background vocal wouldn't work. That was the reverse of "Up the Ladder to the Roof", which did include the Andantes along with Mary and Cindy.

[franjoy56]

It is a big deal to some Supreme fans simply because of their dislike of Diana Ross. When I first came on the web and into different forums I would read things like, "I don't even listen to who is singing lead, because I like the background vocals". Their constant reminder of how the world fell in love with 3 girls not just one. How it wasn't about just Diana, it was about HDH, The Funk Brothers, and Mary and Flo/Cindy's background vocals. Anything to diminish Diana's role in their success, and play up others roles. In their minds they feel as if the lead singer of the group gets too much glory, and too much recognition. For years some Motown fans have been on a [[well deserved) crusade in some cases, to let the world know that Motown wasn't about The Queen of Motown- Diana Ross, but all about everything else behind the scenes and how they also deserved recognition. They fought for this when they didn't know that the Andantes [[more than they realized) where on those records in the background. Some of their whole existence's rely on the fact that Mary and Flo sang on all those songs right along with Diana Ross- who is on every number one record the Supreme's had. It shakes some of them to the core now knowing or suspecting that they weren't. Think about it. The Funks have gotten their recognition and now it is time for the Andantes. But why aren't these Supreme fans in their corner now?
I love the Andantes sound on the bulk of the Motown music they recorded on, but I don't believe they should get their due based on the work they did with the Supremes, if that was the case they should have insisted they get the billing, they cannot replace the work Mary & Flo did on the albums and singles that gave the Supremes their foundation, "Meet the Supremes" Where Did Our Love Go, A Bit Of liverpool, Country Western & Pop, the Sam Cooke Album, The Supremes at The Copa, and More Hits by the Supremes, all albums which were exclusive Diana Mary & Flo produced tracks, and again I say I love the work the Andantes did with the Supremes, and I thank them for making them sound better if that was the case on the ones they claim to be on, but also focus on the work they did for the Marvelettes, the Vandellas, Kim Weston Mary Wells The Four Tops which I believe was more than they did for the Original Supremes until Flo left.

[midnightman]

In case anyone was wondering, the Supremes song in question included Jean Terrell, not Diana Ross lol

[Jimi LaLumia]

'that they claim to be on'....
too funny!..
as they say in the movie, "You can't handle the truth"...
or as Berry said to Mary Wilson at Motown 25, "so you finally learned how to sing..."

[thanxal]

I don't think it was fraud at all. I think it's just the way it was. To try to impose present-day standards retrospectively on events that happened nearly fifty years ago is unreasonable and ultimately futile.
It was fraud then and it is fraud now. Fraud is defined as the willful and knowing practice of deceit for profit or gain. Defining "The Supremes" as Diana, Mary and Florence [[or Cindy) and then knowingly replacing them with singers who don't get credited is deceit and therefore fraud. The question is whether or not there was a specific statute in the 1960s dealing with it, which there wasn't. So Motown and many others got away with it, but there is simply no justification for it.

It might sound all innocent and we can put it in the context of "everybody did it" but it still doesn't mean it isn't fraudulent. Think of all the African-Americans who were ripped off of everything through such practices in the 1950s.

Its sad that it always comes up in the context of Supremes' fan factionalism. There were so many others who were not as fortunate as the girls were and had no money, no fortune, no fame.

[marv2]

That's Mary and Cindy. Apparently Frank Wilson got them to do the background vocals twice to give a full voiced effect. He thought the one take background vocal wouldn't work. That was the reverse of "Up the Ladder to the Roof", which did include the Andantes along with Mary and Cindy.

Jean Terrell also sang the background with Mary and Cindy. Three part harmony sometimes sounds better and definitely fuller than 2 part harmony.

[midnightman]

To the OP, I think you should've said "Stoned Love" at the beginning of the thread...

[thisoldheart]

four points:

1. who sings background on this live recording? ... sounds like the andantes to me. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CjXByFCQ-I8 ... so even the backups are dubbed!

2. the supremes are a special case in pop music history. gordy heavily promoted them from "where did our love go" forward. he knew they had a very good chance of breaking the color barrier. he was right. they did. everybody in 1964/65/66/67 [[tel:1964/65/66/67) knew all of their names [[this changed with birdsong and the group's decline and ross's rise). so they were a group more like the beach boys, beatles and stones, and promoted as such. "more hits by the supremes" has their signatures on the front cover. so, adding or swapping wilson, ballard, or birdsong for the andantes would be tantamount to having singers fill in for the beatles. this never happened to the beatles, stones, or beach boys.

3. gordy fooled me as a kid ... but i think it is high time these records are correctly attributed for pop music history's sake. hip-o-select should make an even greater effort to get the correct track info on each record. i was amazed to see how "marvin and tammi: the complete sessions" says in the booklet that valerie simpson is singing on 10 of the12 "easy" tracks, but the track listing says the same songs are by gaye & terrell. they aren't even consistent in their booklet! sloppy!

4. "motown: the musical is even going to simplify and perpetuate these myths further. i so wish people were actually interested in music, than in fake simplified versions of life!

[Methuselah2]

Well, it certainly has been quite a go-round on this thread today, hasn't it? Just read straight through it and found many worthwhile points to consider--from both sides, actually.

But it was impossible not to notice something that was scattered throughout--and that is, the immediate issue at-hand became tangled with some criticism of members who are invested in the issue to begin with. And I've seen the same thing occur in other threads time and time again. To me, it always seems beside the point. And sometimes, it seems to be precisely the point, too, for some. But in this thread, it all seemed to proceed with civility, and that was noticeable, as well. And appreciated.

Another thing caught my attention: LuvHangOva's omelette analogy--simple, direct, clear, and it zeroed in easily and succinctly, I thought. In seemed to escapsulate the point being made. And that same posting mentioned the word "disappointing" in reference to what transpired in the production of some recordings and their marketing. And that seemed to be just the word that some of us may have been looking for.

And so, dinner tonight was--here it comes--an omelette [[although with Cheddar cheese). With STOP! IN THE NAME OF LOVE playing in--here it comes again--the background.

But due to Floyjoy's mention of what may have been involved with RUN, RUN, RUN--which I had not seen brought up before--I skipped dessert.

And so, first and foremost on tomorrow's agenda: Dessert.

[thisoldheart]

...Another thing caught my attention: LuvHangOva's omelette analogy--simple, direct, clear, and it zeroed in easily and succinctly, I thought. In seemed to escapsulate the point being made. And that same posting mentioned the word "disappointing" in reference to what transpired in the production of some recordings and their marketing ..l
i am "disappointed", but you can't change what happened decades ago ... however, future releases need to be historically accurate ... or as historically accurate as possible. i don't see this happening with the upcoming records released to cash in on the broadway show, but i do hope they are carefully annotated on the four tops & martha & the vandellas upcoming rather expensive and thorough multi-volume sets. these are clearly aimed at collectors, and should be treated as accurate historic documents.

[reese]

2. the supremes are a special case in pop music history. gordy heavily promoted them from "where did our love go" forward. he knew they had a very good chance of breaking the color barrier. he was right. they did. everybody in 1964/65/66/67 [[tel:1964/65/66/67) knew all of their names [[this changed with birdsong and the group's decline and ross's rise). so they were a group more like the beach boys, beatles and stones, and promoted as such. "more hits by the supremes" has their signatures on the front cover. so, adding or swapping wilson, ballard, or birdsong for the andantes would be tantamount to having singers fill in for the beatles. this never happened to the beatles, stones, or beach boys.


Back in the 80s, it was revealed that on some early Beatles recordings, other musicians were used to overdub parts. Famed drummer Bernard Purdie was quoted as saying that he dubbed over Ringo's track. He went on to say that some other musicians did the same, but he was told to keep out of it.

I have no idea what the Beatles fans thought of this, or how widespead the news became. But I would gather it might have been the same reaction as when some fans discovered that the Andantes were on some of the female group recordings.

[144man]

It was fraud then and it is fraud now. Fraud is defined as the willful and knowing practice of deceit for profit or gain. Defining "The Supremes" as Diana, Mary and Florence [[or Cindy) and then knowingly replacing them with singers who don't get credited is deceit and therefore fraud. The question is whether or not there was a specific statute in the 1960s dealing with it, which there wasn't. So Motown and many others got away with it, but there is simply no justification for it.

It might sound all innocent and we can put it in the context of "everybody did it" but it still doesn't mean it isn't fraudulent. Think of all the African-Americans who were ripped off of everything through such practices in the 1950s.

Its sad that it always comes up in the context of Supremes' fan factionalism. There were so many others who were not as fortunate as the girls were and had no money, no fortune, no fame.

I stand by my original statement. I think the legal position was fluid at the time, and is bound up in who had ownership of the names of the groups.

That does not mean that the situation was desirable - just that there is no point in making lofty moral judgements. We're never going to get everyone to agree on who sung on which songs, so unfortunately, not everyone will get the credit in exactly the right measures they deserve.

You can't change the past. It's time for us all to get over it and to move on.

[Penny]

I stand by my original statement. I think the legal position was fluid at the time, and is bound up in who had ownership of the names of the groups.

That does not mean that the situation was desirable - just that there is no point in making lofty moral judgements. We're never going to get everyone to agree on who sung on which songs, so unfortunately, not everyone will get the credit in exactly the right measures they deserve.

You can't change the past. It's time for us all to get over it and to move on.

144man, I agree. It is time to move on. Mary Wilson herself told me at a concert in San Diego one time "Penny, be careful what you think you hear!" And she was right. Those songs were beautiful. A lot of people worked on them and it is hard capturing that musical magic. The producers did what they could with what they had to work with and they used many tools to get the job done. As simple as that.

I love the music. I listen to it to this day. Motown is my music and I love it. A good day or a bad day Motown is there for me.

Penny;)

[motony]

well I hate to tell Beach Boys fans this but on most of their records the Wrecking Crew provided the music.Other musicians were used on alot of Beatles & Stones later recordings[[and background vocalists too).,

[floyjoy678]

motony you are right about the Beach Boys, Dennis hardly ever did his own drumming on their recordings. As a Beach Boys fan when I found that out again it didn't take anything away from them to me because they still went out on the road and performed all those songs night after night. Another group that had other background singers are the Vogues on their hit "Magic Town" that's only the lead singer Bill and tenor Hugh on that song, the other guys were replaced by studio singers.
And midnightman I guess I should've just said it was "Stoned Love" when I first made this thread but I know how sensitive some Supremes fans are so I just kept my mouth shut.

[thisoldheart]

well I hate to tell Beach Boys fans this but on most of their records the Wrecking Crew provided the music.Other musicians were used on alot of Beatles & Stones later recordings[[and background vocalists too).,
i didn't mean to imply that other people didn't play on beach boys, stones, or beatles records. i am well aware of the wrecking crew [[the west coast equivalent to the funk bros), and the stones and the beatles had orchestras and guest friends play on their records. but no one filled in for the voice of mick, keith, brian, lennon, ect. there is a big difference between coming in and playing as a guest on an album, and pretending you are singing the part of a famous vocalist!

[franjoy56]

motony you are right about the Beach Boys, Dennis hardly ever did his own drumming on their recordings. As a Beach Boys fan when I found that out again it didn't take anything away from them to me because they still went out on the road and performed all those songs night after night. Another group that had other background singers are the Vogues on their hit "Magic Town" that's only the lead singer Bill and tenor Hugh on that song, the other guys were replaced by studio singers.
And midnightman I guess I should've just said it was "Stoned Love" when I first made this thread but I know how sensitive some Supremes fans are so I just kept my mouth shut.

Well thank goodness "Stoned Love" cannot be claimed by any one other than Jean Mary & Cindy, because that was their crown jewel selling well over 1 million copies, yet it only peaked at #7 but r&b charts ate it up at #1, and so was "UP the Ladder to the Roof" a crown jewel which sold over 800,000 copies.

[antceleb12]

It amazes me that Motown fans take it so personally that the Andantes were not only used as "sweetening" but filled in for the actualgroup members. There is nothing personal about it. Whomever was used for whatever reason was merely part of the creative process. Also, it wasn't unusual for record companies to use background singers and not credit them. And clearly, one reason why the Andantes were used had to do with fact that the Andantes could vocalize in ways that the group members couldn't. And that was the producer's call. The producers were looking for a particular sound. I never read any complaints about the fact that on a number of the tracks that Ashford and Simpson produced, Supremes or Vandellas or Marvelettes didn't back up the lead singer.....Ashford and Simpson did, and nothing was on the album credits about that[[Some Things You Never get Used To, Keep An Eye, Destination Anywhere, We're a Winner.........).

I take it personally because, as a singer myself, if I found out that my vocals were being dubbed by someone else, I would be LIVID - as were many of the artists. Just because that was common practice doesn't make it right. Payola was common, but is that right? If a producer was trying to get a certain sound, and I'm not the right sound, replacing my voice with someone else is deceptive and fake.

Fans who have spent their money on countless records, believing that those who sang on it were who we were told was on it, finding out after all these years that only ONE of those people actually did the singing. For example, the Supremes. By the end, the records became more like Diana Ross solo albums, with Cindy and Mary not singing a note on a LOT of tracks.

As for the Andantes themselves, while I do feel they did contribute the "sound" we all know as the Motown sound, there is a reason why they were not credited. Nobody wants to look at a Tops album cover and see that the Four Tops' sweet harmonies were embellished [[or replaced entirely) by three female singers. Or see that the latest Martha & the Vandellas single is really Martha backed by three women no one knows about. And artists were pissed. And rightfully so. Mary & Cindy lip-syncing to "Love Child" on national TV is like Milli Vanilli lip-syncing to "their" records. Dishonest!

Now if we're going to say that substituting the artists with the Andantes is not a big deal, that it was a common practice, let's look at it this way. It was common practice to add studio musicians into the mix, true. But it was also common practice to not give them written credit on album notes. So if we're going to say that adding in studio musicians [[that's what the Andantes were - studio musicians. Not an act making a name for itself) such as the Andantes was not a big deal, then we also have to say that Motown not giving them credit was just as normal.

Let's face it. Adding in extra [[or entirely new voices) voices to the background was a form of manipulation in the same way that autotune is: they both produced a sound not produced by the original singer/s, and they both changed the sound, they both provided a sound that would bring in the dough at the end of the day. The big difference is that Motown was much more discreet in how they altered the sound of their singers.

I still listen to the records. I still listen to "Love Child," "Ask the Lonely," and "I'm Ready for Love." When I first got the Supremes "Lost & Found" set, I had "MacArthur Park" on repeat for ages! But now when I listen, I always wonder what it would have sounded like with the original artists on it. And I get it that sometimes there was just no time to get Mary & Cindy or whoever into the studio to lay down their part, but still. I love Motown to death, and will listen to it for the rest of my life, but I've realized that as special as Motown is, it was a business. It had to make money, so it provided the sound that would bring in the $$$ - even if it meant substituting the artist for someone else.

[antceleb12]

Methuselah,
Think about it: The movie industry uses a stunt double when good old James Bond gets in one of his jams. That is pretty much common knowledge, but it doesn't distract from enjoying the movie.
I'm just sayin'....

I think the difference is that with the stunt double, it's a safety issue. They need someone trained. I'm sure if the original actor was capable of doing those stunts, the movie company would rather save money and not hire the double.

With records, yes, it's a convenience issue, but unlike the movies, this practice was done without the artist's consent - not that their consent mattered when legal matters were concerned.

[midnightman]

well I hate to tell Beach Boys fans this but on most of their records the Wrecking Crew provided the music.Other musicians were used on alot of Beatles & Stones later recordings[[and background vocalists too).,

Mmhmm... they also used different background singers. So again, why single out the Supremes? Especially during THAT period.

[midnightman]

motony you are right about the Beach Boys, Dennis hardly ever did his own drumming on their recordings. As a Beach Boys fan when I found that out again it didn't take anything away from them to me because they still went out on the road and performed all those songs night after night. Another group that had other background singers are the Vogues on their hit "Magic Town" that's only the lead singer Bill and tenor Hugh on that song, the other guys were replaced by studio singers.
And midnightman I guess I should've just said it was "Stoned Love" when I first made this thread but I know how sensitive some Supremes fans are so I just kept my mouth shut.

I understand. But it's kind of a "damn if you do, damn if you don't" kind of thing with the Supremes no matter what period. I understand most people here are Supremes fanatics/stans/whatever but this is nuts LMAO!

[midnightman]

Well thank goodness "Stoned Love" cannot be claimed by any one other than Jean Mary & Cindy, because that was their crown jewel selling well over 1 million copies, yet it only peaked at #7 but r&b charts ate it up at #1, and so was "UP the Ladder to the Roof" a crown jewel which sold over 800,000 copies.

I think the "title" got the airplay for that song slighted. Otherwise, it would've been a number-one hit based on airplay alone. The Temptations were able to get away with it with "Cloud Nine" [[though the song didn't mention marijuana, just mention "being on cloud nine", as an actual place, guess it was hippie-ish but whatever lol) but the Supremes' song title was more BLUNT lmao and that song wasn't about weed either haha

[smark21]

I think the difference is that with the stunt double, it's a safety issue. They need someone trained. I'm sure if the original actor was capable of doing those stunts, the movie company would rather save money and not hire the double.

With records, yes, it's a convenience issue, but unlike the movies, this practice was done without the artist's consent - not that their consent mattered when legal matters were concerned.

Not to mention, but the group’s account was charged against royalties for the use of The Andantes on the recording in place of some of the members. So not only were members shut out of the session, they had to pay for the services of their substitutes, which must have been really galling when the members may have been willing to come to the studio to do the work themselves.

[jobeterob]

Well I still don't think it was that significant but it does make me wonder about Milli Vanilli similarities; and also why Florence got mad ~ it wasn't just Diana becoming a star, but Flo wasn't even there sometimes, even early on; and also Mary's bitterness over time and Berry's comments about "you finally learned to sing". All of that takes on a somewhat different blush when you learn the Andantes and others were on so many songs. And every time I listen to a Supremes song ~ I wonder who it is; like the end of Reflections on the #1's ~ that doesn't sound like a Supreme.

[ralpht]

Yeah, true, Smark. But then maybe because of the Andantes they had a big record and got paid all those royalties and money from appearances. And the poor Andantes walked away with a session paycheck.

[Methuselah2]

I take it personally because, as a singer myself, if I found out that my vocals were being dubbed by someone else, I would be LIVID - as were many of the artists. Just because that was common practice doesn't make it right. Payola was common, but is that right? If a producer was trying to get a certain sound, and I'm not the right sound, replacing my voice with someone else is deceptive and fake.

Fans who have spent their money on countless records, believing that those who sang on it were who we were told was on it, finding out after all these years that only ONE of those people actually did the singing. For example, the Supremes. By the end, the records became more like Diana Ross solo albums, with Cindy and Mary not singing a note on a LOT of tracks.

As for the Andantes themselves, while I do feel they did contribute the "sound" we all know as the Motown sound, there is a reason why they were not credited. Nobody wants to look at a Tops album cover and see that the Four Tops' sweet harmonies were embellished [[or replaced entirely) by three female singers. Or see that the latest Martha & the Vandellas single is really Martha backed by three women no one knows about. And artists were pissed. And rightfully so. Mary & Cindy lip-syncing to "Love Child" on national TV is like Milli Vanilli lip-syncing to "their" records. Dishonest!

Now if we're going to say that substituting the artists with the Andantes is not a big deal, that it was a common practice, let's look at it this way. It was common practice to add studio musicians into the mix, true. But it was also common practice to not give them written credit on album notes. So if we're going to say that adding in studio musicians [[that's what the Andantes were - studio musicians. Not an act making a name for itself) such as the Andantes was not a big deal, then we also have to say that Motown not giving them credit was just as normal.

Let's face it. Adding in extra [[or entirely new voices) voices to the background was a form of manipulation in the same way that autotune is: they both produced a sound not produced by the original singer/s, and they both changed the sound, they both provided a sound that would bring in the dough at the end of the day. The big difference is that Motown was much more discreet in how they altered the sound of their singers.

I still listen to the records. I still listen to "Love Child," "Ask the Lonely," and "I'm Ready for Love." When I first got the Supremes "Lost & Found" set, I had "MacArthur Park" on repeat for ages! But now when I listen, I always wonder what it would have sounded like with the original artists on it. And I get it that sometimes there was just no time to get Mary & Cindy or whoever into the studio to lay down their part, but still. I love Motown to death, and will listen to it for the rest of my life, but I've realized that as special as Motown is, it was a business. It had to make money, so it provided the sound that would bring in the $$$ - even if it meant substituting the artist for someone else.

Antceleb - I'm in complete agreement with you. I thank you for delineating it so clearly and thoroughly. And most of all--insightfully. It's an intricate issue because it hits many spots for a number of us who are fans of the artists and their work and their treatment, as well as being fans of Motown as a business entity. And you managed to hit every spot. Well done!

[antceleb12]

I've read that Florence was so upset over the Andantes being added to "The Happening," she went over to Berry's house to change his mind. Considering Berry didn't take orders from his artists, I'm wondering what kept him from releasing the version with the Andantes.

I wonder when the artists [[Four Tops, Supremes, Vandellas, etc.) found out that their voices were being dubbed or substituted, as well as their reactions. I think that alone is very telling of where they stood on the "fame versus ethics" issue.

[Methuselah2]

I think the difference is that with the stunt double, it's a safety issue. They need someone trained. I'm sure if the original actor was capable of doing those stunts, the movie company would rather save money and not hire the double.

With records, yes, it's a convenience issue, but unlike the movies, this practice was done without the artist's consent - not that their consent mattered when legal matters were concerned.

Antceleb - Again, I totally concur with you. Relatedly, here's a comment I posted last Friday on the "Marvin and Tammi's Easy Album" thread:

This has been a very interesting thread. Unfortunately, the issues and concerns at the center of it may never get answered with any final or official response unless, perhaps, the producers of the recordings in question come forward with the actual production specifics. I would like to think that the discussions that come up about this are a means of leading to the information that many, including myself, would like to know. It could happen but, for now, it seems highly unlikely. As The Marvelettes once sang, THE TRUTH'S OUTSIDE MY DOOR. If only it were.

What's so unsettling is that one's admiration towards certain recordings and very specific artists is now re-mixed with doubt. The movie business has always used stand-ins, stunt doubles, body doubles, special effects, editing, you-name-it--all to produce a desired effect. It's distressing to realize that--in some cases--the record business could proceed along the same lines. And any such decisions to do so may have been made directly for the sake of expediency rather than any pointed attempt at misleading. But in the end, something may have been advertised and promoted as one thing when, in fact, it wasn't quite that. And there's the rub that's troublesome. And baby, I can't scratch it.

[antceleb12]

Antceleb - Again, I totally concur with you. Relatedly, here's a comment I posted last Friday on the "Marvin and Tammi's Easy Album" thread:

This has been a very interesting thread. Unfortunately, the issues and concerns at the center of it may never get answered with any final or official response unless, perhaps, the producers of the recordings in question come forward with the actual production specifics. I would like to think that the discussions that come up about this are a means of leading to the information that many, including myself, would like to know. It could happen but, for now, it seems highly unlikely. As The Marvelettes once sang, THE TRUTH'S OUTSIDE MY DOOR. If only it were.

What's so unsettling is that one's admiration towards certain recordings and very specific artists is now re-mixed with doubt. The movie business has always used stand-ins, stunt doubles, body doubles, special effects, editing, you-name-it--all to produce a desired effect. It's distressing to realize that--in some cases--the record business could proceed along the same lines. And any such decisions to do so may have been made directly for the sake of expediency rather than any pointed attempt at misleading. But in the end, something may have been advertised and promoted as one thing when, in fact, it wasn't quite that. And there's the rub that's troublesome. And baby, I can't scratch it.

Thanks, Methuselah! It's a shame that these practices exist, but it would be truly fascinating to hear it from the producer's side, regarding the circumstances surrounding a particular recording or session.

[midnightman]

I give up. LOL

[marv2]

Well I still don't think it was that significant but it does make me wonder about Milli Vanilli similarities; and also why Florence got mad ~ it wasn't just Diana becoming a star, but Flo wasn't even there sometimes, even early on; and also Mary's bitterness over time and Berry's comments about "you finally learned to sing". All of that takes on a somewhat different blush when you learn the Andantes and others were on so many songs. And every time I listen to a Supremes song ~ I wonder who it is; like the end of Reflections on the #1's ~ that doesn't sound like a Supreme.

Those are the Supremes on Reflections [[Mary Wilson, Diana Ross, Florence Ballard). Berry was teasing Mary. He always knew she was a great singer. He wrote a song for her called "Baby Don't Go" back in 1961 and she sounded great. He was kidding. The Real Supremes are on the majority of their recordings by the way.

[Methuselah2]

. . . Considering Berry didn't take orders from his artists, I'm wondering what kept him from releasing the version with the Andantes.

An interesting side-note: When Andante Louvain Demps appeared on WOMR's great radio show NIGHTFLIGHT [[womr.org), she spoke about once going to talk to Berry in his office. She didn't go into specifics about what it was about but she did mention that she had greatly regretted ever doing it, that by the time she left his office she was completely diminished.

[marv2]

An interesting side-note: When Andante Louvain Demps appeared on WOMR's great radio show NIGHTFLIGHT [[womr.org), she spoke about once going to talk to Berry in his office. She didn't go into specifics about what it was about but she did mention that she had greatly regretted ever doing it, that by the time she left his office she was completely diminished.

Makes you wonder why Motown never promoted the Andantes as a group.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the fact that Mary didn't appear on Supremes records for years obviously accounts for her fear of taking the lead spot in 1970, and letting Gordy pick a new lead singer instead..her confidence had been diminished[[she is, after all, a great song stylist in her own right), and she was afraid of the results...
and don't you all think that the Andantes were brought in because , in a competitive 1960's market, the Motown "Sound" with just the actual members singing, just wouldn't cut it on record? ..
in 'live' appearances, the thrill of seeing your faves in the flesh forgives all 'sins', but on record [[and thereby, radio) , well, that is a quite different story..

[jobeterob]

An interesting side-note: When Andante Louvain Demps appeared on WOMR's great radio show NIGHTFLIGHT [[womr.org), she spoke about once going to talk to Berry in his office. She didn't go into specifics about what it was about but she did mention that she had greatly regretted ever doing it, that by the time she left his office she was completely diminished.

It could easily have been something like.............you have to LOOK like Mary to be in the Supremes; and he told Mary, you have to SING like Louvain to be on the records.

And they both came out if it all lacking confidence.

The Andantes, like the Funks, didn't get paid a lot and to make a legal case for any royalties is a big stretch. As Ralph has pointed out, the Supremes made some money off the Andantes replacing them on record and perhaps turning out a better product. New meaning to "it's what's in the grooves that counts".

[carole cucumber]

Those are the Supremes on Reflections [[Mary Wilson, Diana Ross, Florence Ballard). Berry was teasing Mary. He always knew she was a great singer. He wrote a song for her called "Baby Don't Go" back in 1961 and she sounded great. He was kidding. The Real Supremes are on the majority of their recordings by the way.

Sometimes people tease, but the one who is teased may feel that there is some underlying truth to what was said in a kidding way. Berry's statement, though presented in a teasing manner, would have a real impact on Mary.
Here's what Mary writes in "Dreamgirl"
'I didn't have a featured solo spot, but, ever the optimist, I was still pestering Berry to let me sing a lead now and then, when one day he jokingly said "Oh, Mary. You know you can't sing." I was so devastated by his words that it would take me years of music therapy to overcome my gradual loss of confidence.'

[jillfoster]

the fact that Mary didn't appear on Supremes records for years obviously accounts for her fear of taking the lead spot in 1970, and letting Gordy pick a new lead singer instead..her confidence had been diminished[[she is, after all, a great song stylist in her own right), and she was afraid of the results...
and don't you all think that the Andantes were brought in because , in a competitive 1960's market, the Motown "Sound" with just the actual members singing, just wouldn't cut it on record? ..
in 'live' appearances, the thrill of seeing your faves in the flesh forgives all 'sins', but on record [[and thereby, radio) , well, that is a quite different story..

No, because with the exception of the highest parts on the four tops records [[And on Love Child), the Andantes sound boring and bland. As a listener, I want lively and exciting background vocals as well as lead vocals, as well as all instrumentation. A song is only as strong as it's weakest link. Nobody is gonna tell me that the the BG vocals on a song like "The composer" is even halfway as good as what you hear on "The Happening". And of course, Berry wasn't going to record them solo, because if there was any notice at all, you'd have to put them on TV, and looked like 3 fat cleaning ladies. Marlene was the only one who was halfway presentable onstage.

[Jimi LaLumia]

well, by the time she got the boot, 'poor Flo' looked like a fat cleaning lady, so what's the difference?..
Weather Girls, much?..Martha Wash vs. a fashion model in the Black Box video?

[jillfoster]

well, by the time she got the boot, 'poor Flo' looked like a fat cleaning lady, so what's the difference?..
Weather Girls, much?..Martha Wash vs. a fashion model in the Black Box video?

Martha Wash still wore beautiful clothes and was an attractive large woman. Can't fix ugly. The andantes were used because they were FAST and CHEAP, no other reason. Nobody else in the business wanted them, that's why they never worked when Detroit moved to L.A. Everyone else in the business wanted Cissy and Co, or Darlene Love and Co. or Sunny and Sue, and co. And when your'e overweight as a performer, you must have soemthing SPECIAL to offer, Mama Cass had magnetic stage presence and great personality, Martha Wash had a voice that would lift the roof. Andantes had none of that.

[marv2]

the fact that Mary didn't appear on Supremes records for years obviously accounts for her fear of taking the lead spot in 1970, and letting Gordy pick a new lead singer instead..her confidence had been diminished[[she is, after all, a great song stylist in her own right), and she was afraid of the results...
and don't you all think that the Andantes were brought in because , in a competitive 1960's market, the Motown "Sound" with just the actual members singing, just wouldn't cut it on record? ..
in 'live' appearances, the thrill of seeing your faves in the flesh forgives all 'sins', but on record [[and thereby, radio) , well, that is a quite different story..

You're exaggerating. Mary Wilson appeared on most Supremes recordings just not most of the album filler and a few moderately successful singles from roughly late 1967 to 69. The Andantes were used to fill in the sound. It was very difficult for a three member group with one principle lead and two backing vocalist to achieve the desired 3 or more part harmonies. The best sounding records the Supremes released had Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard supplying the harmonies. The Andantes talented as they were sounded bland to me back diana ross on records such as "The Composer", "Forever Came Today" and most of all of the album filler tracks. Even when you listen to "Diana Ross & the Supremes" version of "Sunny" with Mary and Cindy doing the backing vocals, it sounds much better and distinctive.

[Jimi LaLumia]

when Detroit moved to L..A., Andantes kept showing up on Jean Terrell era Supremes records anyway..

[midnightman]

I recant...lol

I just thought of something...

Some of the Motown recordings were quite complex for its productions and whatever song they gave to the Supremes or the Vandellas, a certain vocal touch was needed. If the producer didn't feel the other members had the take down pat, they get another background singer who matched it. This could explain why the Andantes were always used in Four Tops recordings and why they were occasionally called for a Temptations song [["It's Growing"). I admit the case with the Supremes was complex. The drama attached to them just made the use of the Andantes more dramatic for those who have been lifelong Supremes fans. I'm thinking with the Supremes, it was a matter of "work, work, work!", "we ain't got time, get whoever you can to sing in front of her [[Diana) before noon...!" and "ugh, I can't go. Tell her to go without me." Florence also wasn't a part of some vocal sessions either on her own accord or something else. And I think the same could be said about Mary and Cindy during the DRATS period though they DID sing background on some of those records, released or not. It's a complex issue. Plus, let's not forget Diana was working like a slave with no money, like many of the Motown artists in that once they had a hit, they had to work ten times above that song just to get another smash. You have to remember back in those days, things may have seem simple but they weren't. The Motown acts barely got a rest in recording and performing so sometimes Motown would push a song with just the lead singer of a group and add in background singers that were nearby [[in this case, the Andantes). Of course people like Mary Wilson and Katherine Schnaffer [[have no idea about the Vandellas) would see things differently too. It's really a complex issue.

[midnightman]

when Detroit moved to L..A., Andantes kept showing up on Jean Terrell era Supremes records anyway..

When did the Andantes leave Motown? 1972 right? I'm guessing the Jean Terrell-era recordings were recorded in both Detroit and Los Angeles. The Andantes were on "Floy Joy" so yeah.

[marv2]

Take a listen to this. One of the best of the Supremes "non-hit" recordings, "Take Me Where You Go". Listen closely to the backing vocals and how fine and melodic Mary Wilson and Florence Ballard sound! Those girls were putting it down! They had strong ,distinctive and beautiful voices that blended it extremely well together. There is no way I would even start to compare them to session singers. This recording is another example of why they were the greatest girl group of all time. Give a listen [[again!)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OpeviZo6Rc

[jillfoster]

when Detroit moved to L..A., Andantes kept showing up on Jean Terrell era Supremes records anyway..

They were all recorded in Detroit, you big dummy. "Floy Joy" was one of the last albums ever recorded at Hitsville. The only Jean album recorded in L.A. was the Jimmy Webb album.

[jillfoster]

Yes, Marv, when you have lead signers singing background, it all sounds that much better. That's why Mabel, Susaye, etc.. sounded so great on all of Ray Charles' records, and were tapped to sing BG for the Rolling Stones, etc. And of course, Cissy Houston, who was perhaps the biggest in demand BG singer in the business. And yes, Mary and Flo sound MUCH better:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3TuFhEDPQ4

The only time the Andantes really give me chills is on "Ask The Lonely".

[marv2]

They were all recorded in Detroit, you big dummy. "Floy Joy" was one of the last albums ever recorded at Hitsville. The only Jean album recorded in L.A. was the Jimmy Webb album.

I am glad you said it because he making this shit up as he is typing! LOL! If they added horns to a Supremes recording, would it make as big a deal as using what were basically anonymous voices to fill out a few tracks here and there? There is a male voice on "You're Wonderful Sweet, Sweet Love" was it required? No. Did it add something to the record? That is debatable. Same thing goes for when they used female session singers to backup the Supremes on a few songs that needed a fatter sounding vocal harmony. This is becoming ridiculous.

[marv2]

Yes, Marv, when you have lead signers singing background, it all sounds that much better. That's why Mabel, Susaye, etc.. sounded so great on all of Ray Charles' records, and were tapped to sing BG for the Rolling Stones, etc. And of course, Cissy Houston, who was perhaps the biggest in demand BG singer in the business. And yes, Mary and Flo sound MUCH better:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3TuFhEDPQ4

The only time the Andantes really give me chills is on "Ask The Lonely".

I do like how they sound on "Just Ask The Lonely" and on Jimmy Ruffin's "What Becomes of the Broken Hearted". Since I know Florence Ballard's and Mary Wilson's voices so well, I only prefer the Supremes music with them singing, not the Andantes because they just sound bland and colorless on the recordings they were added to during the late 1967-69 period.

[marv2]

When did the Andantes leave Motown? 1972 right? I'm guessing the Jean Terrell-era recordings were recorded in both Detroit and Los Angeles. The Andantes were on "Floy Joy" so yeah.

The Andantes did not leave Motown. Motown left them! It was cruel when Motown left Detroit, they left a lot of the people that built the company there. The "Jean Terrell era" recordings were recorded all over the place! Not just Detroit and LA. For instance, all the vocals for "Stoned Love" were recorded in New York.

[marv2]

They were all recorded in Detroit, you big dummy. "Floy Joy" was one of the last albums ever recorded at Hitsville. The only Jean album recorded in L.A. was the Jimmy Webb album.

True, the entire "Floy Joy" album was recorded in Detroit. Listening to that album I noticed how Smokey purposely brought up, pulled out Mary's and Cindy's vocals so that you hear them more distinctly in the background. Mary is so loud on "You're Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" it just sound more soulful, danceable or whatever. He did great work with Jean, Mary and Cindy. Check out what I am saying here.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxUTOgfAMvQ

[jobeterob]

The only trouble with the comments made by Marv2 and Jill is that sadly, Ralph for one, was there..............and what he has been saying several times is that the Andantes were better than the group members.

I know it's a tough pill to swallow but he WAS there.

And that is probably the reason HDH made the choices they did ~ to either sweeten or replace the Supremes with the Andantes.

[marv2]

well, by the time she got the boot, 'poor Flo' looked like a fat cleaning lady, so what's the difference?..
Weather Girls, much?..Martha Wash vs. a fashion model in the Black Box video?

Florence Ballard was never fat while she was in the Supremes. Even pictures of her from 1968-70 she was never fat. She was voluptous, a real woman with curves. So you cannot know what you are talking about.

[marv2]

The only trouble with the comments made by Marv2 and Jill is that sadly, Ralph for one, was there..............and what he has been saying several times is that the Andantes were better than the group members.

I know it's a tough pill to swallow but he WAS there.

And that is probably the reason HDH made the choices they did ~ to either sweeten or replace the Supremes with the Andantes.

He did not say that the Andantes were better than the Supremes. I knew that is where you were hoping to get things going. I'll say this about you, it never takes you very long to show your true intentions on here. Go read it again and stop trying to flame things as they say........

Oh, another thing, Holland-Dozier-Holland never replaced the Supremes. The Andantes were used to buttress or as you put it "sweeten" the sounds of many groups and artists at Motown....not just the Supremes. I don't think they did much work on Temptation recordings because the Tempts always had 3 or 4 group members doing the backing vocals. That would not have been possible with the Supremes, Martha & the Vandellas, etc, etc.

That's the truth! It is only bitter to those that deal in lies and distortions....hmmmmmm.....?

[carole cucumber]

Florence Ballard was never fat while she was in the Supremes. Even pictures of her from 1968-70 she was never fat. She was voluptous, a real woman with curves. So you cannot know what you are talking about.

Mary Wilson's words in "Dreamgirl"
'Though she would get much heavier over the next few months, she had already gained a little weight, which was enough to affect how our stage costumes fit. Sometimes Diane would want to wear one outfit for a show but couldn't because Flo's no longer fit her.'
'Flo was not a small woman, and with the drinking, she continued to gain weight. Soon the svelte, revealing stage costumes were tight and unflattering. '

[Jimi LaLumia]

Poor Flo, by her own choice, became fat and bloated while still a Sup..
and maybe Mary was loud as hell on "Floy Joy" but last time I checked, that album tanked like the Titanic..maybe The Andantes SHOULD have been on there..

[marv2]

Mary Wilson's words in "Dreamgirl"
'Though she would get much heavier over the next few months, she had already gained a little weight, which was enough to affect how our stage costumes fit. Sometimes Diane would want to wear one outfit for a show but couldn't because Flo's no longer fit her.'
'Flo was not a small woman, and with the drinking, she continued to gain weight. Soon the svelte, revealing stage costumes were tight and unflattering. '

Show me a picture of or a videotape of Florence Ballard fat while she was in the Supremes and I will take back what I said. To women that were size 4 or 5, a woman that wore an 8-10 would be considered larger than themselves. Geez. Show me a picture Carole! Thanks

[marv2]

Carole, here is a picture of Florence Ballard with the Supremes taken June 13, 1967 . This would have been about month before she was fired. She doesn't look fat to me.........

[marv2]

Poor Flo, by her own choice, became fat and bloated while still a Sup..
and maybe Mary was loud as hell on "Floy Joy" but last time I checked, that album tanked like the Titanic..maybe The Andantes SHOULD have been on there..

Nice try. Instead of inciting a riot, you just sound stupid!

[franjoy56]

I've read that Florence was so upset over the Andantes being added to "The Happening," she went over to Berry's house to change his mind. Considering Berry didn't take orders from his artists, I'm wondering what kept him from releasing the version with the Andantes.

I wonder when the artists [[Four Tops, Supremes, Vandellas, etc.) found out that their voices were being dubbed or substituted, as well as their reactions. I think that alone is very telling of where they stood on the "fame versus ethics" issue.

Well I think it is wonderful that Berry took a complaint from one of the Supremes and especially Flo who at this time was on shaky ground since that song was recorded in early 1967. Why would the Andantes version have a release when the Supremes were on a hot streak with three previous #1's and the Happening with the original Supremes was the fourth #1. and the unreleased version sounds even better.

[franjoy56]

the fact that Mary didn't appear on Supremes records for years obviously accounts for her fear of taking the lead spot in 1970, and letting Gordy pick a new lead singer instead..her confidence had been diminished[[she is, after all, a great song stylist in her own right), and she was afraid of the results...
and don't you all think that the Andantes were brought in because , in a competitive 1960's market, the Motown "Sound" with just the actual members singing, just wouldn't cut it on record? ..
in 'live' appearances, the thrill of seeing your faves in the flesh forgives all 'sins', but on record [[and thereby, radio) , well, that is a quite different story..
First of all Mary put her foot down when Jean terrell was selected when Berry wanted to dismantle the group on the evening after the Farewell Show. The Supremes are noted for the breakthrough singles and albums in 1964 with the record breaking "Where Did Our Love Go" #2 pop #1 r & b album which features the three #1 records by Diana, Mary, & Flo as well as all the tracks on that album everything that came later was built on the foundation set by that breakthrough album and ended with the 1967 Diana Ross and The Supremes Greatest Hits also a #1 album with voices of Ross Wilson and Ballard, anything that came after was secondary, so how is that for cutting it with the original Supremes singers.

[carole cucumber]

The long flowing gowns served their purpose well. Even [[from reports of the day) rail-thin Diana, sexy Mary , and [[according to Mary) overweight Flo look good. Were those the 'My Favorite Things/Hits Medley' pink gowns worn on Ed Sullivan?

[Jimi LaLumia]

exactly..they all wore those circus tent gowns so that poor -you-know didn't show..
she sure could have used the Andantes on those ABC Records session for that mediocre solo album... as to that run on sentence above, the two biggest Supremes singles were 'Love Child" and "Someday We'll Be Together" , both by Diana Ross & The Andantes.. the two most still played Supremes tracks on 'Classic Hits" radio...look it up..

[marv2]

The long flowing gowns served their purpose well. Even [[from reports of the day) rail-thin Diana, sexy Mary , and [[according to Mary) overweight Flo look good. Were those the 'My Favorite Things/Hits Medley' pink gowns worn on Ed Sullivan?

Here they are in tighter gowns. This is also from 1967. Check Florence out. Doesn't look fat to me. I need you to show me a picture of Florence Ballard fat while she was in the Supremes. Thanks.

[franjoy56]

Mr. la mina: I TAKE EXCEPTION TO THE TONE YOU ARE IMPLYING ON ONE OF OUR BELOVED VOICES IN THE SUPREMES SHE DID NOT LOOK LIKE A FAT CLEANING LADY, DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH FULL FIGURED FEMALES, THE SUPREMES LOST A VOCAL SPARK WHEN FLO LEFT, MAYBE YOU SHOULD THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.

[franjoy56]

I beg to differ "baby love" "come see about me" & "where did our love go" are the most played supremes singles of all time, not the andantes filled singles although "love child" might be in the running. 'baby love" held the #1 position for the most weeks of any supremes single.

[jillfoster]

May, 1967. No fat girls, here...If you want to a fat girl singing, dial up Aretha Franklin


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDt5iNbVYSs

[thisoldheart]

florence ballard looks voluptuous ... she can't help it if ross was a size 0! hell, they all look great!

[jillfoster]

and maybe Mary was loud as hell on "Floy Joy" but last time I checked, that album tanked like the Titanic..maybe The Andantes SHOULD have been on there..

The song Floy Joy went to number 16 on the billboard hot 100. Even Diana Ross would kill to have one of those right about now, as it hasn't happened to her in almost 30 years.

[rod_rick]

True, the entire "Floy Joy" album was recorded in Detroit. Listening to that album I noticed how Smokey purposely brought up, pulled out Mary's and Cindy's vocals so that you hear them more distinctly in the background. Mary is so loud on "You're Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love" it just sound more soulful, danceable or whatever. He did great work with Jean, Mary and Cindy. Check out what I am saying here.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxUTOgfAMvQ

Wow looking at them dancing to Your Wonderful Sweet Sweet Love, maybe that should have promoted it more, it sounds pretty good here.

[franjoy56]

Thanks for posting this Marv, I loved that song and Soul Train did the Supremes good with the black fans.

[Jimi LaLumia]

The andantes were called '3 fat cleaning ladies', so we fight fire with fire... and Flo was deemed fat by 'the boss'..take it up with Mr. Gordy!

[smark21]

Yet another thread that was actually doing well with some thoughtful discussion has been hijacked by so called Supremes fans who are engaged in an insult competition as to which Supreme was the most pathetic and most worthy of scorn and contempt. Good job showing what great supporters you are of the group and its legacy!

[smark21]

No Andantes here and proof how great the Supremes were at their peak.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4cQZvgSXhs

[smark21]

Another [[though I"m sure will use this to talk about gold records)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8O6tEYKNRM

[smark21]

One more [[though I'm sure will use this to bitch about the fate of the Jean led group):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOnBWb5aMLo

[jillfoster]

Yes, Smark... those are all amazing performances, aren't they? Some issue comes from people's concept of what makes good backing vocals. Some feel they should "blend" and not stick out in any way, others feel they should have some pizazz. My main issue is that I feel 95% of the Andantes work basically has no soul. I know Motown liked to use them because they were cheap, and able to arrange their harmonies quickly, therefore making the recording process more fast and efficient. But quick and mass produced always makes QUALITY suffer. Many times the songs themselves and the production was so good it didn't matter, but make no mistake... those songs weren't hits BECAUSE of the Andantes, they were hits in SPITE of them. If they were THAT important, they would have brought their asses out to L.A., but that didn't happen, did it? And most others in the music business preferred to use backing vocalists with much more color and resonance in their voices, look at how Doris Troy is renowned for her work on Pink Floyd's "Dark Side Of The Moon". Or What would Culture Club's records be like without Helen Terry? Just two examples of many.

[thisoldheart]

or merry clayton on the stones' "gimme shelter" ...

[thisoldheart]

Which one would you rather put onstage?

6350

that's cruel. i would put anyone on stage who could sing .... this is turning ugly ... grow up!

[Roberta75]

Have you no shame or decency Jimi la Lumia or jillfoster? Posting photos and calling ladies fat is so immature for 2 grown men you ought to hang your heads in shame. What if one of Flos kids reads this board or one of the Andanttes lady reads this board or someone who is real concious about they weight. Its childish and immature and wrong. May God forgive the both of you.

Roberta

[ralpht]

Roberta is right guys. Show a little respect. Besides if you want the honest truth, the best back-up singers were usually a little over weight. And I loved them dearly. So show some respect here. This has been a great thread so far. Don't mess it up.

[midnight johnny]

Roberta is right guys. Show a little respect. Besides if you want the honest truth, the best back-up singers were usually a little over weight. And I loved them dearly. So show some respect here. This has been a great thread so far. Don't mess it up.

And let's give equal time to a few of the great thinner ones too...Telma Hopkins, Joyce Vincent, Valerie Simpson, Ullanda McCullough and Madeline Bell!

[floyjoy678]

Florence being replaced on "You Can't Hurry Love" does make sense, I have a clip of the girls lip-syncing the song on a show hosted by Cousin Brucie in the summer of 1966 so it must've been one of the first times they performed it and Florence misses several parts throughout the song. She also said in an interview that she loved every single one of the songs they put out except for one, I wonder if she was referring to "You Can't Hurry Love". Regarding her weight I wouldn't go as far as calling her fat but she did gain weight between 1965 and 1966/67. Look at their appearance on Hullabaloo singing "Back In My Arms Again" and then look at her a year later when they perform "My World Is Empty Without You" on Ed Sullivan. There were rumors back then that she was pregnant. But I don't think it made her look bad she looked sexier in my opinion. From late 1966 to her firing from the group I think Flo looked her best. As far as calling the Andantes fat that's just in bad taste. And Mary and Florence could sound boring sometimes too especially on those A Go Go sessions then again Diana did too.

[ralpht]

No argument there, Midnight. Telma and Joyce were always my back-up singers. We had history that went all the way back to Golden World and Tera Shirma.

[calvin]

I'm coming a bit late to this thread with a couple of tangential remarks to posts made yesterday...

Regarding The Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew. I think all Beach Boys fans know this story, starting with Pet Sounds. But that's no fraud - that album is a Brian Wilson creative tour de force, and the boys did do vocals on it. And as far as I know, they were pretty open about how that album was made. Note also that "Caroline, No", which only had Brian Wilson vocals [[and so no contribution from the other band members), was released as a single at the time - and credited to Brian Wilson, not to the Beach Boys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline,_no

Regarding Bernard Purdie - there is nothing more than his claim that he drummed for the Beatles, there is no evidence. And there are many reasons not to believe this claim. But that's a topic for another thread on another forum.

[thisoldheart]

I'm coming a bit late to this thread with a couple of tangential remarks to posts made yesterday...

Regarding The Beach Boys and the Wrecking Crew. I think all Beach Boys fans know this story, starting with Pet Sounds. But that's no fraud - that album is a Brian Wilson creative tour de force, and the boys did do vocals on it. And as far as I know, they were pretty open about how that album was made. Note also that "Caroline, No", which only had Brian Wilson vocals [[and so no contribution from the other band members), was released as a single at the time - and credited to Brian Wilson, not to the Beach Boys.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline,_no

Regarding Bernard Purdie - there is nothing more than his claim that he drummed for the Beatles, there is no evidence. And there are many reasons not to believe this claim. But that's a topic for another thread on another forum.
... what i was tryin' to say, but you put much more eloquently.

[marv2]

Thanks for posting this Marv, I loved that song and Soul Train did the Supremes good with the black fans.

It was a very underrated JAM! It was perfect to me on all counts.

[marv2]

or merry clayton on the stones' "gimme shelter" ...

Merry Clayton, ahhh, yes! She has also said that she is one of the backing vocalists on "Someday We'll Be Together" along with the Waters.

[smark21]

Well the ultimate session singer substituting for the group screw job is still when Phil Spector had Darlene Love and session singers record “He’s A Rebel” and then slapping the Crystals’ name on the 45. Great record, but unfair to the Crystals and unfair to Darlene Love.

[jillfoster]

Well the ultimate session singer substituting for the group screw job is still when Phil Spector had Darlene Love and session singers record “He’s A Rebel” and then slapping the Crystals’ name on the 45. Great record, but unfair to the Crystals and unfair to Darlene Love.

Yeah, you're right... that one pretty much trumps them all.

[alexgarret]

I'm curious jillfoster - did you delete your post of "who would you rather put on stage" or did Ralph? It was extremely in poor taste - but you seem to enjoy mocking people's appearance. You must be one hell of a good looking person.

[ralpht]

Alex,
I deleted the pic. Yes it was in poor taste.

[alexgarret]

Alex,
I deleted the pic. Yes it was in poor taste.

Thanks Ralph - can't believe what some people think is humor. I assume that picture was Louvane [[sp?) or one of the Andantes. She seems like a lovely woman. Hopefully you nixed it before too many people saw it.

[Kamasu_Jr]

No argument there, Midnight. Telma and Joyce were always my back-up singers. We had history that went all the way back to Golden World and Tera Shirma. All right Ralph. Telma and Joyce are my babies. They gave Tony Orlando soul. He ain't done nothing without them since he split up the act. They were also some of Detroit's finest session singers. And true, some of the best singers have been heavy. Mahalia used to call her heftiness her sangin' weight.

[franjoy56]

Have you no shame or decency Jimi la Lumia or jillfoster? Posting photos and calling ladies fat is so immature for 2 grown men you ought to hang your heads in shame. What if one of Flos kids reads this board or one of the Andanttes lady reads this board or someone who is real concious about they weight. Its childish and immature and wrong. May God forgive the both of you.

Roberta
Thanks Roberta for bringing up the behavior of the members in question, I think one of them needs to be verbally reprimanded, by the administratior, I am appauled by his behavior and outright disdain for the Supremes, if he does not have anything nice to say he should be banned from this sight because his words are destructive, and it upsets different points of view, We don't need to take up anything with Mr. Gordy, we are expressing our opinions and what Gordy did back in the day is on him as the manager of Motown, we are fans who loved the music and the original artists who performed the songs.

[Jimi LaLumia]

I happen to be a Supremes fan since 1964, which these days is more of a conceptual thing with new revelations popping up everyday..
when mud is thrown at the ultra talented Andantes, who became 'the Motown Sound', then others may be inclined to pick up a handful in response,,
some folks can't deal with the facts being provided here, and they'll just have to get over it..Mary Wilson talked about Flo's weight issues in her "Dreamgirl.." book, so maybe you can take this up with Ms. Wilson..

[nomis]

On the Flo weight issue..we have to look at it in the context of the actual time and not what we know with hindsight and the changing trends that have prevailed over the ensuing decades - its 1967 Twiggy was the rage reed thin was where it was in fashion - right or wrong on the moral spectrum - annorexia thin was in and Diana played no small part in this fashion conception her pain angst at the turmoil in the group and that sadistic workload made her eating issues the new fashion rage..only a decade earlier Flo's figure had been all the rage thanks to Marilyn Monroe..just as Joan crawfords broad shouldered figure had been the decan of envy a decade before Marilyn..but 1967 was all about Diana and Twiggy's size and look..like so many things to do with Blondie fate played against her she was slightly buxom..not fat but Berry used that word as a weapon against her which I have no doubt led to her addiction of diet pills and finally the blood clots that killed her...

[franjoy56]

On the Flo weight issue..we have to look at it in the context of the actual time and not what we know with hindsight and the changing trends that have prevailed over the ensuing decades - its 1967 Twiggy was the rage reed thin was where it was in fashion - right or wrong on the moral spectrum - annorexia thin was in and Diana played no small part in this fashion conception her pain angst at the turmoil in the group and that sadistic workload made her eating issues the new fashion rage..only a decade earlier Flo's figure had been all the rage thanks to Marilyn Monroe..just as Joan crawfords broad shouldered figure had been the decan of envy a decade before Marilyn..but 1967 was all about Diana and Twiggy's size and look..like so many things to do with Blondie fate played against her she was slightly buxom..not fat but Berry used that word as a weapon against her which I have no doubt led to her addiction of diet pills and finally the blood clots that killed her...
We don't care what weapon Gordy used against whom, all i know is that Flo was a major part of the Supremes and without her talent, in the background and on the leads she did albums cuts, and as part of the trio during their heyday they would not have made it, It disturbs me greatly when I hear words like "fat cleaning lady" and other disruptive pronouns, we should respect people without name calling, and I don't like Jim Lamina's comments, and it must be stopped.

[jillfoster]

All right Ralph. Telma and Joyce are my babies. They gave Tony Orlando soul. He ain't done nothing without them. They were also some of Detroit's finest session singers. And true, some of the best singers have been heavy. Mahalia used to call it her singing weight.

Yes he did... it's called "Halfway To Paradise", and "Bless You". BUT.. I don't care to hear him without Telma and Joyce, to be honest. Those two girls are the BOMB. I can't say enough good things about them.

[franjoy56]

and disrespect toward the Andantes is also showing disrespect as well toward the Motown family. Fat or skinny people have a right to express their talent no matter how they look.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Few really remember Bless You or Halfway To Paradise by Tony Orlando. They don't get played on oldies radio where I live. They might have been minor hits, but he's best remembered for what he did in the 1970s. I also meant that I've not cared for him since he broke up the Tony & Dawn act. He didn't realize that it was not all about him. There was a time in the music business [[pre music videos and red carpet events) when it was no big deal if a singer was hefty, some of the best ones were. I did notice on the Supremes' tribute on Swingin' Time [[that old show) that Florence Ballard seemed needlessly defensive about her weight. It was brought up several times. Once she thought Robin Seymour was talking about weight, but he wasn't. And she brought it up [[her weight ) several times. It wasn't important to me, but I could sense an issue was being made of it somewhere. The Andantes had one member who was plump or heavy, big deal! She looked like my cousin Punkin [[who was a big girl), and I love me some Cousin Punkin. Personally, my uncle had weight issues for most of his life. He's been dieting since he was 14 in the 1960s. His weight would come down and he'd put it back on. It made him terribly unhappy and depressed throughout his life and no matter how much we reassured him that we loved him and it didn't matter because he was a good dude; He still obsessed over his weight. Now he's thinner because of illness. He's happier, but his health is fragile because of all of that yo-yo dieting and earlier weight issues. I'm really sensitive about peoples' weight because I've seen so many heavy people get their feelings hurt over something that some of them can't help or have have other serious reasons for why they are heavy.

[Penny]

Cass Elliot was a favorite back in the day. Her weight was never discussed and everyone loved her. I just hate that someone's weight is being used as a club here. We can argue about business decisions and maybe for Berry it was. I don't know. I loved Florence as a Supreme. The group was going in a direction that Florence didn't like. She would have left the group anyway. Florence didn't have the heart for the business side of the industry.

I have been wide across the beam in the past so you can make fun of me, too.

I hurts me that an Andante, and they have been to this site before, would read some of this trash. They helped make the sound we so love.

Penny:[[
A Sad AVON Rep

[Jimi LaLumia]

and for the record the 'fat cleaning ladies' line was used by someone, who is not me, against The Andantes,,
I luved Mama Cass, but to this day, people still tell the untrue story that Cass died by choking on a ham sandwhich, implying that all she did was eat..there is nothing funny about the dangers of weight, on the heart, etc..
and in 'show' 'business', the 'show' part has to do with visuals, and the reality, especially for females [[ask any tv newscaster), is that weight does play a part in who does or does not get to be seen by the money spending public..
the fabulous Jennifer Hudson, who should have won "American Idol", didn't even make the Top Three, and her weight at the time was a national discussion point on the internet [[and look what role she was cast in, for "Dreamgirls")..
I think Unsung needs to look at creating an episode on The Andantes..

[mysterysinger]

Tony Orlando is well respected for his earlier work - "Halfway to Paradise" and "Bless You" are classics. Jimmy Ruffin, of course, did decent versions of both on his "Top Ten"/"Way" album. Billy Fury's version of HTP is bigger in the UK. However, it is very true to say that Tony's most remembered work was with Dawn and that was a very successful partnership of all 3 personnel [[and others). I think "Bless You" has more soul than "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" but then who really cares about that - we like what we like.

[midnight johnny]

"Tie A Yellow Ribbon" wan't supposed to have soul....it was PURE POP...that's why it sold a gazillion copies!

[jillfoster]

Cass Elliot was a favorite back in the day. Her weight was never discussed and everyone loved her. I just hate that someone's weight is being used as a club here. We can argue about business decisions and maybe for Berry it was. I don't know. I loved Florence as a Supreme. The group was going in a direction that Florence didn't like. She would have left the group anyway. Florence didn't have the heart for the business side of the industry.

I have been wide across the beam in the past so you can make fun of me, too.

I hurts me that an Andante, and they have been to this site before, would read some of this trash. They helped make the sound we so love.

Penny:[[
A Sad AVON Rep

Penny, Mama Cass may have been fat, but like I stated she had shitloads of everything ELSE a person could want in a performer, so her weight didn't matter... or in the end it did.. because I wished she would have been around to record and perform for 30 more years. What I was stating .... is that in the music business, a fat girl with mediocre talent will not make it, but a beautiful girl with mediocre talent CAN [[Look at 3/4 of the female singers today) And my point was that I felt the Andantes were a mediocre talent as far as their SOUND [[They probably had other talents, such as being able to quickly arrange vocal harmonies) but also like I pointed out, they DID have moments of greatness.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=Jimi LaLumia;153573I think Unsung needs to look at creating an episode on The Andantes..[/QUOTE]

They can't! They were never celebrities. There is also no known video footage of them. What will they use as visuals to fill up an hour?

[Kamasu_Jr]

Hmmm. I bet there are pictures, interview footage, old super 8 footage. It can be done. There could be an Unsung on session singers in which the Andantes could be featured. Not everyone featured on Unsung thus far would qualify as celebrities in many minds. The Whispers are nice guys, terrific singers, but not celebrities in my opinion. Session or background singers definitely qualify as "unsung" figures in the music industry. A few have even become celebrities....just look at Darlene Love or Cissy Houston.

[jillfoster]

Hmmm. I bet there are pictures, interview footage, old super 8 footage. It can be done. There could be an Unsung on session singers in which the Andantes could be featured. Not everyone featured on Unsung thus far would qualify as celebrities in many minds. The Whispers are nice guys, singers, but not celebrities in my opinion.

But they had 12 songs that made the billboard hot 100. That's something, at least.

[marv2]

But they had 12 songs that made the billboard hot 100. That's something, at least.

The Whispers are definitely celebrities among the Black Community.

[Kamasu_Jr]

I would bet any one of the Whispers could walk down Beale St. here in Memphis and few people would recognize them, even though they had chart records. THEY are celebrated, but hardly celebrities, in the truest sense of that word.

[marv2]

I would bet any one of the Whispers could walk down Beale St. here in Memphis and few people would recognize them, even though they had chart records. THEY are celebrated, but hardly celebrities, in the truest sense of that word.

Maybe Memphis is not that sophisticated. They are very well known here in New York,
Philly and Detroit.

[Kamasu_Jr]

MEMPHIS is very sophisticated, urban city. People from all over the world come here to tour the city and see attractions like the Rock and Soul Museum, Graceland, Stax, the National Civil Rights Museum, Beale St. We have the opera, ballet, theater and a symphony orchestra here. We have culture. Plus, the city has me- one of the most soulful music jocks and teachers in the city-- And I'm modest too. THE Whispers are celebrated, just not celebrities in my opinion.

[thisoldheart]

Maybe Memphis is not that sophisticated. They are very well known here in New York,
Philly and Detroit.
i am thinking this is a joke ... i am hoping this is a joke!

[ralpht]

Marv had me thinking on that one also.

[supremester]

I think it's funny that a few fans of the music would be so vocal and negative about the reality of the recordings. I mean, get a life. I'm so glad I resisted the urge to slash my wrists when I found out Barbara did the spoken part of He's Seventeen. Whats to argue about? If Mary or Flo weren't on any records it wouldn't matter at all. They still did the work, were the public faces of the group, the public didn't know so it really didn't matter at all. To lose it over a background credit is kind of weird. During RTL, I spoke with the head of TNT about the controversy. He said they recieved vile, vulgar, threatening faxes from anonymous sources that led them to turn things over to the authorities. He said he they had never seen such hatred and vitriol in their entire careers. On one hand, it's cool that their passion for the music is so strong. On the other, to be psychotic about it is kind of scary. Everyone knows there were always 3 Supremes - who did what is kind of petty except from a historical standpoint. Mary's voice will always be that perfectly haunting sound in WDOLG. Louvaine Demps will always be that wonderful singer giving us that standout note on Love Child. It's all good.


Fran and Floy, you are both right. It doesn't matter anything to 99.9% of the population and most of them couldn't even name 3 Supremes let alone 9. And regardless of who sang on what, in concert and on tv for many years, Diana Ross and the Supremes were the top of the game from 1964 to 1969.

But it is of interest to a few hundred fans and as time has gone on, it is more and more clear the Andantes did an awful lot for a lot of groups and we are having more people speak out about it - much like Ralph recently did.

The reason it matters more for the Supremes and Diana Ross is the old animosity between Ross and Wilson and that continues amongst some fans if not between Ross and Wilson; some Wilson fans seem to think this is the final nail in the coffin of Wilson and reducing her importance to not much so their disbelief is intense; but she still sang out there day after day with Diana for several years and has survived and performs to this day.

[supremester]

I've heard of them but don't know who they are. I am definitely not sophisticated!


i am thinking this is a joke ... i am hoping this is a joke!

[supremester]

There could easily be an episode on The Andantes. They have a rich, colorful story that is truly unsung. I'm going to suggest it. Maybe others should as well if you feel it would be interesting. They've sung on many of the biggest records ever - they'd be ideal - GREAT IDEA!


Hmmm. I bet there are pictures, interview footage, old super 8 footage. It can be done. There could be an Unsung on session singers in which the Andantes could be featured. Not everyone featured on Unsung thus far would qualify as celebrities in many minds. The Whispers are nice guys, terrific singers, but not celebrities in my opinion. Session or background singers definitely qualify as "unsung" figures in the music industry. A few have even become celebrities....just look at Darlene Love or Cissy Houston.

[Methuselah2]

Supremester - I appreciate your postings. And I especially appreciate your mentioning the historial value of knowing the facts of things. But when you also mention that "the public didn't know so it really didn't matter at all," you lose me. If it didn't matter--at the time--that's only because there was no reason to think otherwise, based on how things were being presented to the public. But to a portion of the public who thought they knew what they were purchasing? To me, it matters. Who was actually on those recordings? Yes, to me it matters. And for various other reasons outside of money being exchanged.

Your opinions are your own. But you've posting them. And, therefore, they're deserving of attention. And they have mine. But my question to you is: Why take a stance with others posting theirs? If it's a matter of not being interested or being tired of hearing about certain things, isn't there a very easy remedy for that? I thought SDF was precisely the place to express opinions. I just wasn't expecting it to also be the place where some took exception to those even having an opinion to express and who chose to do so.

[supremester]

I'm sorry, hun. I'm not a good communicator on these things. I agree with you 1000%. What I meant was, it didn't matter at the time cuz everyone was buying Love Child cuz it was a killer record - I doubt anyone bought it solely because they thought Mary & Cindy were on it. It didn't matter to the public at the time. Certainly it matters to know the truth. It matters to me. What Marlene barrow took in her coffee matters to me! I love knowing the history of the music I dig. Who did what, chart facts, sales, management of product shipments - it all fascinates me. And, I believe The Andantes deserve to be credited wherever they appear. Period. I was upset in 2000 when CBS reversed it's projection that Gore won. Learning that Flo isn't on YCHL was interesting - even juicy - but not upsetting to me. I still love it.

[marv2]

MEMPHIS is very sophisticated, urban city. People from all over the world come here to tour the city and see attractions like the Rock and Soul Museum, Graceland, Stax, the National Civil Rights Museum, Beale St. We have the opera, ballet, theater and a symphony orchestra here. We have culture. Plus, the city has me- one of the most soulful music jocks and teachers in the city-- And I'm modest too. THE Whispers are celebrated, just not celebrities in my opinion.

Kamasu! Hold up! I didn't mean to offend Memphis at all. I have been there many times beginning as a kid in the 60's. What I meant [[and I hope this is not misunderstood) is that in some parts of the country, different regions are not tuned into the same things as another. When I was a kid in college in Denver, the people always were asking what was going on back East? What the lastest was in terms of music, dances, clothing, etc whatever was important to teenagers and 20 somethings , Ya know? They somehow felt cut off from the "real deal" living out West. I am sure that there are those in Memphis that know a heck of a lot more about Blues and Gospel artists than in other parts of the country. In New York, they mention Walter and Scottie of the Whispers almost in the same categories as David and Eddie of the Temptations. if you ever get the chance, listen to Felix Hernandez's Rhythm Review Sundays on WBLS 107.5 on the internet.

[marv2]

i am thinking this is a joke ... i am hoping this is a joke!

What do you mean by joke?

[marv2]

Marv had me thinking on that one also.

Ralph, read my post following the one in question. I may have used the wrong word.