Someday We'll Be Together question.

[franjoy56]

In Randy's book, it was stated that on Nov. 3-1969 Motown released the offical press statement that Diana was leaving the Supremes in 1970

But Berry wanted her out with a number one record. Was it predetermined that "Someday" was going to be an instant hit, because it did not hit the charts until Nov. 8 but it debut at #50 then 32, then #20 and then 11 and upward. If it had died at #20 would Ms. Ross still be let out of the Supremes, at this time a thing she had called a trap by this time since she wanted out so badly, infact she wanted the group off her shoulder in 1967. Mary and Cindy were already rehearsing with Jean months prior to Someday's release. What gives here, i do remember buying the single in November just before Thanksgiving and then the album Cream of the Crop in early December. i knew those girls in the bck did not sound like Mary and Cindy, but nothing was said about, however i really didn't know Cindy's voice either except for the tv shows.

[ejluther]

It's my understanding that "Reach Out and Touch" was going to be the last Diana Ross and The Supremes single if "Someday..." failed to do well but, frankly, I can't remember where I heard/learned that...

[johnny_raven]

I thought that "Someday" was supposed to be Diana's 1st solo release ...

[ejluther]

Yes, that's the story but I also heard that that "Reach Out..." was going to be the backup once the decision to call "Someday..." a Diana Ross & The Supremes single was made. I wish I could remember where I read that - perhaps someone else on this board did the same...

[captainjames]

Amazing how we hear so many different things. Actually, it has been said that "Someday" was suppose to Diana's solo recording and then I heard "These Things" was to be the follow up.

However it was suppose to play out I am glad that "Someday" was the last #1 hit single of the 60's. Perhaps the reality of it was that Diana was busy as a solo and Mary and Cindy were busy with Jean that the announcement was made and then they everyone scrambled because they did not have a swan song prepared.

[luke]

I read that that Reach Out story was just that--a story that wasnt accurate. I imagine with Someday hitting at 50 it was pretty clear it was going to be a hit.

[jobeterob]

I'm not sure I believe a lot of these stories anymore either. As the years have gone by, we hear again and again that some of the repeated stories are nothing but bullshit; most recently, something that was long attributed to Gladys Knight being refuted.

I would have picked Someday for a bigger hit than Reach Out and Touch. They were both Diana Ross singles in the end so if Someday was to be her first single, it would not have been a surprise. But then, as it's turned out, Stop in the Name of Love, the released 45, was a Diana Ross single too.

[franjoy56]

I'm not sure I believe a lot of these stories anymore either. As the years have gone by, we hear again and again that some of the repeated stories are nothing but bullshit; most recently, something that was long attributed to Gladys Knight being refuted.

I would have picked Someday for a bigger hit than Reach Out and Touch. They were both Diana Ross singles in the end so if Someday was to be her first single, it would not have been a surprise. But then, as it's turned out, Stop in the Name of Love, the released 45, was a Diana Ross single too.
"Reprise": "Stop in the name of Love" was not a Diana Ross record it was a Supremes record both the promo and commercial release ask one of the Andantes, Flo's voice Mary and one Andante are clearly heard in the background of the commercial release, therefore it is not a Diana Ross record in that case "Ain't No Mountain High" is not a Diana Ross record exclusively because the bacground is filled with singers so loud that practically drown out Diana in the chorus. No one seems to have an answer as to what if Someday had failed or dropped at #20 would that have been good enough to send Ross out of the Supremes??? According to the book by Randy Ross was not feeling secure about leaving the Supremes until "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" went to #1 but no decent follow up kept the momentum going, although I love that single and "Remember Me" was right on but it died at #16, where was the promo for that..

[marv2]

"Reprise": "Stop in the name of Love" was not a Diana Ross record it was a Supremes record both the promo and commercial release ask one of the Andantes, Flo's voice Mary and one Andante are clearly heard in the background of the commercial release, therefore it is not a Diana Ross record in that case "Ain't No Mountain High" is not a Diana Ross record exclusively because the bacground is filled with singers so loud that practically drown out Diana in the chorus. No one seems to have an answer as to what if Someday had failed or dropped at #20 would that have been good enough to send Ross out of the Supremes??? According to the book by Randy Ross was not feeling secure about leaving the Supremes until "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" went to #1 but no decent follow up kept the momentum going, although I love that single and "Remember Me" was right on but it died at #16, where was the promo for that..

He is winding you up! Baiting you. He knows darn well that "Stop In the Name of Love" is by the Supremes and is not a Diana Ross record. She knows it too.....

[marv2]

Had "Someday We'll Be Together" peaked at say #20, I do believe Berry Gordy would have pulled Diane out of the group at that point.

[franjoy56]

That sounds like a reasonable explanation, Marv thanks I know you are the expert on matters like this, yea I know Jobete like to consistently throw in that sitnol story time after time, even when one of the andantes said that she hears Flo in the mix so what does that say, Mary must be there too, and whoever the alto Andante is is it Jackie HIcks, I think Louvain Demps was the soprano.

[franjoy56]

#20, certainly would have been better than their laslt two singles : Some things you never get used to #30, and No Matter What Sign You are #31 not to mention the "The Weight" with the Tempts which did worse but a good record no less.

[skooldem1]

This again? Have you actually heard the program in question? She said she heard Flo. Yes. The question is what version was played. I remember, and I could be wrong, but the version that was played sounded like the one on the #1's CD. I don't think that was the released version. I will have to wait till it is rebroadcast. I'm not saying for certain who is on any of these versions cause I wasn't there. What I don't understand is the mental block some seem to have when it comes to understanding that there are a couple of versions of this song.

[franjoy56]

I really like the way DMC sound at their Farewell show singing it together esp. when ms Ross says come on Mary and Cindy lets sing it like we feel it.

[franjoy56]

Yes this agin. Stop in the name of Love features Flo ballard in every mix there is plain and simple and if Flo is their Mary is too.

[franjoy56]

this is a Someday we'll Be Together thread not "Stop in the name of Love"

[marv2]

I really like the way DMC sound at their Farewell show singing it together esp. when ms Ross says come on Mary and Cindy lets sing it like we feel it.

I liked that too. It was a important moment in music history. They were crying and singing their hearts out all that the same time in room filled with the biggest names in show business at the time. Amazing!

[marv2]

Yes this agin. Stop in the name of Love features Flo ballard in every mix there is plain and simple and if Flo is their Mary is too.

Florence, Mary and Diane are all over that record. They not only recorded it, but the SOLD IT! Their stage movements to that song have become iconic and nothing any poster on this or any other board can change what those girls put down because it is now history and solid as a rock!

[floyjoy678]

skooldem1 the version of "Stop! In the Name of Love" on the #1's is the same version as the single release version except the background vocals are mixed up louder and there is no fade. I'm sure it's all five of them doing the backgrounds as I can hear Flo myself and I also can hear the Andantes.

Regarding "Someday We'll Be Together" I always thought it was "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" to be released as the final single in case the previous failed to chart?

[jobeterob]

The Andantes got the released version of the 45 of Stop in the Name of Love. Andy and George said so in the 50th Anniversary Singles Collection. They were going to say more on the I Hear A Symphony collection but they knew feelings had been hurt.

Look, the Supremes sang the song with Diane all over the country for years; but they don't sing on the single.

But believe that if you sleep better. I don't.

But, jeez, I agree with Marv; Diane was gone in 1967 and if Someday failed, she wouldn't have been back.

[144man]

If you had been in charge at Motown, wouldn't you have picked Diana Ross and the Supremes' "Someday We'll Be Together" as their final single together because it's such an appropriate title? Compare "We've Come Too Far to End It Now" at the end of Smokey Robinson & the Miracles' career together.

[thisoldheart]

If you had been in charge at Motown, wouldn't you have picked Diana Ross and the Supremes' "Someday We'll Be Together" as their final single together because it's such an appropriate title? Compare "We've Come Too Far to End It Now" at the end of Smokey Robinson & the Miracles' career together.
exactly!!! motown announces the exit of diana ross, puts out a very good single "someday we'll be together" ... the charts moved slower then, but there was no way that the supremes were going to go out with anything less than a #1 with this title!

[bradsupremes]

What's interesting is Diana's version of "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" was originally assigned to the Supremes. With "Someday We'll Be Together" climbing the charts Johnny Bristol probably assumed the Supremes' first single without Diana should sound like their last single with Diana. It was eventually reassigned to Diana with the same mindset that her first solo single should have the same feeling "Someday We'll Be Together" had.

[mowest]

Given the presence of Johnny Bristol on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" is it possible that some of this song was recorded during the same sessions as "Someday We'll Be Together?"
Are the background voices those of the Supremes, Andantes or Waters?

[marv2]

Given the presence of Johnny Bristol on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" is it possible that some of this song was recorded during the same sessions as "Someday We'll Be Together?"
Are the background voices those of the Supremes, Andantes or Waters?

Now that is a great question!

[skooldem1]

If the Supreme's are not on "Someday we'll be together" you can eliminate them.

[marv2]

If the Supreme's are not on "Someday we'll be together" you can eliminate them.

Not so fast........according to comments about the record made by Johnny Bristol and Cindy Birdsong. Briefly, Johnny said his intentions were to use Mary and Cindy. Cindy said the only reason she nor Mary are on that track is because they were heading out of town for a gig the day before the background vocals were scheduled to be recorded.

[skooldem1]

Those background vocals sound NOTHING like Mary and Cindy.

[marv2]

Those background vocals sound NOTHING like Mary and Cindy.

I take it you are referring to "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You"? I have to take a listen to that song again as I have not heard it in many years. "Reach Out and Touch Somebody's Hand" always sounded like the Supremes or at least Mary on back up.

[skooldem1]

Mary and Cindy are not on Reach Out.

[marv2]

Here it is. It definitely does not sound like the women singing on Someday We'll Be Together. The one voice sounds like Cindy Birdsong to me.........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am4HjRg2RGQ

[marv2]

Mary and Cindy are not on Reach Out.

How do you know? They also sound like they were on the Four Tops "Still Waters [[LOVE)".

[marv2]

I mean we have learn in subsequent years that Motown used just about any and everyone on background vocals at some point, so the Supremes could very well be on a few of Diana Ross' early "solo" recordings.

[skooldem1]

You are upset because Mary and Cindy and even Flo are not on some records so you are trying to muddy the waters by claiming they are on Diana's solo records. It is so silly.

[franjoy56]

You are upset because Mary and Cindy and even Flo are not on some records so you are trying to muddy the waters by claiming they are on Diana's solo records. It is so silly.

Well skooldem1, I have some news for you: In Mary's book on page 275 she lists "Recorded "These Things wil keep me loving U" [[on Diana's first solo LP) and she also mentions two additional Right On Tracks I always assumed were the Andantes, "Take A Closer Look at Me" and a song I always thought I heard Mary on "I Got Hurt Trying to be the only Girl" so perhaps the Andantes share the credit with the Supremes, don't count out the Supremes so fast sir.

And yes the #1's sound like the released version and Flo is on that mix if no one else is.

[skooldem1]

Perhaps they are on "These things", I wasn't there. "Reach Out"..No way. In the end it doesn't matter, It is just background vocals. Like someone said, any and everyone would sing the background vocals at Motown. With that said this is a big #FAIL. It is clear what the purpose of all of this is.

[marv2]

If you had been in charge at Motown, wouldn't you have picked Diana Ross and the Supremes' "Someday We'll Be Together" as their final single together because it's such an appropriate title? Compare "We've Come Too Far to End It Now" at the end of Smokey Robinson & the Miracles' career together.

One of the best "farewell" songs was Gladys Knight & the Pips' , "Neither One of Us" released as they were departing Motown.

[skooldem1]

Fran Fran Fran. Ok, Flo is on Stop. Hope you can sleep better as this seems to be a really big thing in your life.

[marv2]

You are upset because Mary and Cindy and even Flo are not on some records so you are trying to muddy the waters by claiming they are on Diana's solo records. It is so silly.

I am upset? HA! I am sitting here eating cheese popcorn and relaxing, enjoying myself. I am not upset over anything LOL! Mary and Cindy could easy been on recordings done between 1969-71 if they were available. We now know that Motown would slap any name they wanted to on the label. So why couldn't they call a recording with Mary and Cindy on it a "Diana Ross" record?

[marv2]

Well skooldem1, I have some news for you: In Mary's book on page 275 she lists "Recorded "These Things wil keep me loving U" [[on Diana's first solo LP) and she also mentions two additional Right On Tracks I always assumed were the Andantes, "Take A Closer Look at Me" and a song I always thought I heard Mary on "I Got Hurt Trying to be the only Girl" so perhaps the Andantes share the credit with the Supremes, don't count out the Supremes so fast sir.

And yes the #1's sound like the released version and Flo is on that mix if no one else is.

Very good points Fran. After all , the Supremes were used early on as back ups for Marvin Gaye, Mabel Johns, Mary Wells and others. Johnny Bristol produced "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" and said his intent was to use Mary and Cindy on "Someday". Mary Wilson was in the recording studio so I would say she would know better than I or anyone else that were not there......

[franjoy56]

I always sleep well, Stop in the name of Love" was not a part of this thread a certain someone threw it in, and since I am a Florence Ballard fan, it is my duty to defend her artistry, as I am sure Mary Wilson has in the past, and as I said if Flo is on that record so is Mary.

[marv2]

I always sleep well, Stop in the name of Love" was not a part of this thread a certain someone threw it in, and since I am a Florence Ballard fan, it is my duty to defend her artistry, as I am sure Mary Wilson has in the past, and as I said if Flo is on that record so is Mary.

They said for years that Florence Ballard was not on "My World Is Empty Without You" and instead it was Marlene Barrows of the Andantes. Then a few years ago it was proven that it was Florence along with Mary Wilson and Diana Ross alone on that recording! People had took the original misinformation and ran with it all over the place including you tube!

[carole cucumber]

[QUOTE=franjoy56;150759]Well skooldem1, I have some news for you: In Mary's book on page 275 she lists "Recorded "These Things wil keep me loving U" [[on Diana's first solo LP)

__________________________________________________ __________________


Mary notation is not the final and full story. The session logs prove that conclusively!

"These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" Track recorded November 5, 1969, assigned to the Supremes; demo vocal recorded November 8; reassigned to Diana Ross, additional instrumentation and BACKGROUND VOCALS recorded January 5, 1970, lead vocal recording date unknown.


Fran,
Mary's itinerary at the end of Dreamgirl presents a few problems. Mary lists many, many titles of songs that were assigned to the Supremes for which Supremes [[Mary & Flo/Mary & Cindy and at times even Diana) did not record vocals. Some in the know have said that Mary contacted a Motown insider when writing her book asking that person for the title of songs in the vault in order to expand her itinerary pages. That person didn't realize that 'assigned to' didn't always mean 'recorded by'. The date that Mary lists is the date that the basic instrumental track [[not the vocals) was recorded. And it is the very last entry of mention of any song recorded by Diana Ross that might include Mary & Cindy on background. All other titles listed by Mary are recorded with Jean Terrell on lead.

[floyjoy678]

I never took Mary's timeline in her book seriously. A few errors that stand out to me are it lists the Supremes performing "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone" on the Ed Sullivan Show in January of 1967...never happened. Then she lists them performing "Some Things You Never Get Used To" on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1968...again never happened.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=franjoy56;150759]Well skooldem1, I have some news for you: In Mary's book on page 275 she lists "Recorded "These Things wil keep me loving U" [[on Diana's first solo LP)

__________________________________________________ __________________


Mary notation is not the final and full story. The session logs prove that conclusively!



Carol, I will take Mary Wilson's word over yours or anyone else's that was not there! Were you even born by 1969?

[marv2]

I never took Mary's timeline in her book seriously. A few errors that stand out to me are it lists the Supremes performing "Love Is Here and Now You're Gone" on the Ed Sullivan Show in January of 1967...never happened. Then she lists them performing "Some Things You Never Get Used To" on the Ed Sullivan Show in 1968...again never happened.

Are you sure? can you provide proof they did not perform those songs on the Ed Sullivan Show?

[stopinthenameoflove]

I take it you are referring to "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You"? I have to take a listen to that song again as I have not heard it in many years. "Reach Out and Touch Somebody's Hand" always sounded like the Supremes or at least Mary on back up.

Whoever is on backing on 'These Things' I thought from the first time I heard it that it wasn't a run of the mill filler track. I do think they had some plans for it. I do agree, I hear Mary on Still Waters by the Four Tops

[mowest]

I just looked at the Wikipedia entry for Diana Ross [[1970 album). It lists Maxine & Julia Waters for background vocals on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You." Upon listening to the song again, that doesn't appear likely.

[marv2]

I just looked at the Wikipedia entry for Diana Ross [[1970 album). It lists Maxine & Julia Waters for background vocals on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You." Upon listening to the song again, that doesn't appear likely.

I agree, it doesn't sound like the Waters Sisters at all to me. Those voices are different than those on "Someday We'll Be Together". That is part of problem with Wikipedia. Anyone can put information up on it no matter how erroneous.

[carole cucumber]

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150772]

Carol, I will take Mary Wilson's word over yours or anyone else's that was not there! Were you even born by 1969?

When I or anyone was born has no bearing on this issue.

The evidence I quote is from a rock solid foundation!. The concrete evidence [[still available to the present day) written in the Hitsville Session Logbooks and on the Motown Library Tape Filing Cards entrusted to and cared for so meticulously by Fran Heard & her staff is what and whom I'm relying upon.
Do you want to call Mrs Heard a liar?

[marv2]

[QUOTE=marv2;150782]

When I or anyone was born has no bearing on this issue.

The evidence I quote is from a rock solid foundation!. The concrete evidence [[still available to the present day) written in the Hitsville Session Logbooks and on the Motown Library Tape Filing Cards entrusted to and cared for so meticulously by Fran Heard & her staff is what and whom I'm relying upon.
Do you want to call Mrs Heard a liar?

I was right! You weren't even born yet! You are typing stuff from books that probably have not been verified. Are the books you are posting from, were they written by people who were actually there? LOL!!!!

[franjoy56]

[QUOTE=marv2;150782]

When I or anyone was born has no bearing on this issue.

The evidence I quote is from a rock solid foundation!. The concrete evidence [[still available to the present day) written in the Hitsville Session Logbooks and on the Motown Library Tape Filing Cards entrusted to and cared for so meticulously by Fran Heard & her staff is what and whom I'm relying upon.
Do you want to call Mrs Heard a liar?
Was Ms. Fran Heard there when that song was recorded in 1969. You claim there may be errors in Mary's book i cannot vouch for how some errors may have been overlooked. But i can assure you that if Mary put [[the track that is on Diana's solo album) that fact was not overlooked she put those words in brackets period so I am taking that as fact others can do what they want with it. Someday we'll be together has suddenly turned into "These Things will keep me loving YOu" which I think is a better record.

[carole cucumber]

"Reach Out and Touch Somebody's Hand" always sounded like the Supremes or at least Mary on back up.

Regarding Diana Ross [[1970), Valerie Simpson is quoted as saying "Berry told us that he wanted us to get a little away from the Motown sound. We left the meeting scratching our heads, thinking about what songs we could write that would bring her to the foreground as a solo artist. The pressure was on."

On January 20 & 21, 1970 Ashford & Simpson came up with 'Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)' , "Something On My Mind", "Dark Side Of the World" and a re-worked "Keep An Eye". The basic track for "Reach Out and Touch [[Somebody's Hand)"
was recorded on Jan 20, 1970; demo vocal recorded January 21, strings added on Jan 23, background vocals recorded February 11, lead vocal date unknown.
The late Nick Ashford has stated that Diana was very concerned that the album be right since this was her solo debut.

With as much care as Val & Nick put into the project, knowing that Bones Howe had also been recording tracks with /for Diana, I can't even envision them inviting Mary & Cindy to provide backgrounds to their songs. Diana, eager to make-it-on-her-own, would have recognized their voices and likely convinced Berry to go with Bones Howe or some other producer.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150867]
Was Ms. Fran Heard there when that song was recorded in 1969. You claim there may be errors in Mary's book i cannot vouch for how some errors may have been overlooked. But i can assure you that if Mary put [[the track that is on Diana's solo album) that fact was not overlooked she put those words in brackets period so I am taking that as fact others can do what they want with it. Someday we'll be together has suddenly turned into "These Things will keep me loving YOu" which I think is a better record.

Fran, since these songs were recorded in 1969 and in California, I highly doubt Ms. Fran Heard was there when that song was recorded. She was still in Detroit at that time. They were still recording in Detroit. Motown had not completely moved West by that point.

[carole cucumber]

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150867]

I was right! You weren't even born yet! You are typing stuff from books that probably have not been verified. Are the books you are posting from, were they written by people who were actually there? LOL!!!!

The information provided is taken directly from the sources listed by those who STILL have access to them. Do you have access to the session logbooks or tape filing cards?

[marv2]

[QUOTE=marv2;150888]

The information provided is taken directly from the sources listed by those who STILL have access to them. Do you have access to the session logbooks or tape filing cards?

I have access to my checkbook........LOL!!!

[carole cucumber]

[QUOTE=franjoy56;150898]

Fran, since these songs were recorded in 1969 and in California, I highly doubt Ms. Fran Heard was there when that song was recorded. She was still in Detroit at that time. They were still recording in Detroit. Motown had not completely moved West by that point.
And what is your source that leads you to conclude that both songs were recorded in California? Wikipedia!?

And whether or not she was there directly or not is immaterial. It has no bearing on the issue.
The session log entries from those who were there is sufficient proof for me.

[carole cucumber]

[QUOTE=carole cucumber;150867]
You claim there may be errors in Mary's book i cannot vouch for how some errors may have been overlooked. But i can assure you that if Mary put [[the track that is on Diana's solo album) that fact was not overlooked she put those words in brackets period so I am taking that as fact others can do what they want with it.


Fran,
Once you are able to get the Supremes' recordings of the following released
A Special Love, A Tear For The Girl, Across the Road, Ain't I Gonna Win Your Love, All I Want To Do, Another Lonely Night Completes Another Empty Day, Baby's Home To Stay, Blue Memories, Bibbity Bobbity Boo, The Boy From Crosstown, Darling Baby, Deep Inside, Don't Forget I Love You, Don't say You Love Me, Double or Nothing [[and the list could go on and on)......
I will believe you.

[jobeterob]

It is odd for anyone to think that Reach Out and Touch may have had a Mary Wilson sound in the background, considering that she was missing on many of the backgrounds as far back as 1965. The sound we thought was Mary and Cindy was often the Andantes. As least with Flo, you could hear her once in a while in a more distinctive way.

I can't imagine Motown would try and inject "Supremes" after ejecting them for the 5 years previous to 1970.

[franjoy56]

It is odd for anyone to think that Reach Out and Touch may have had a Mary Wilson sound in the background, considering that she was missing on many of the backgrounds as far back as 1965. The sound we thought was Mary and Cindy was often the Andantes. As least with Flo, you could hear her once in a while in a more distinctive way.

I can't imagine Motown would try and inject "Supremes" after ejecting them for the 5 years previous to 1970.

When you say ejecting them it is meant that Berry Gordy only saw Diana Ross where the supremes as a group was concerned. No wonder Flo [[who you could hear more than once in a while) after seeing the group being torn apart, for a potential solo star, acted out., it is no wonder Jean Terrell left after she saw her pennies being evaporated with unnecessary promotion that was meant to put money in Motown; pocket until she got sick of it.
Jean T in Mary's Supreme Faith ""There not even keeping an accuarte accounting. "Don't tell me you ca give me two pennies just because I was only making one at first and that i'm suppose to be happy with it." We know who is singing on those songs and you Jobete, we know how fixed you are on Diana Ross, and I applaud you for it, but the Supremes are the Supremes and no star can change what their voices produced on those albums that are timeless to this day.

[revvy]

I believe Mary and Cindy were not on many recordings between 1967-69 because they were constantly touring which is far better money than making records...especially filler songs for an album that they weren't going to be performing live anyway. There's no sense in taking valuable time working out intricate background harmonies when the big money is in live gigs.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=marv2;150901]
And what is your source that leads you to conclude that both songs were recorded in California? Wikipedia!?

And whether or not she was there directly or not is immaterial. It has no bearing on the issue.
The session log entries from those who were there is sufficient proof for me.

The late Mr. Johnny Bristol who was there! He said they were recorded in LA. He was the producer! I can easily get Mary to corroborate it. Oh so now you are backing down from you claim that Mrs. Heard was directly involved in those recordings or that she was somewhere around?

Immaterial? Is this trial that no one told me about? LOL! You Carol you kill me, hehehehehehe.........

[marv2]

[QUOTE=marv2;150901]
And what is your source that leads you to conclude that both songs were recorded in California? Wikipedia!?

And whether or not she was there directly or not is immaterial. It has no bearing on the issue.
The session log entries from those who were there is sufficient proof for me.

Carol, did you buy Mrs. Heard's book?

[marv2]

[QUOTE=franjoy56;150898]


Fran,
Once you are able to get the Supremes' recordings of the following released
A Special Love, A Tear For The Girl, Across the Road, Ain't I Gonna Win Your Love, All I Want To Do, Another Lonely Night Completes Another Empty Day, Baby's Home To Stay, Blue Memories, Bibbity Bobbity Boo, The Boy From Crosstown, Darling Baby, Deep Inside, Don't Forget I Love You, Don't say You Love Me, Double or Nothing [[and the list could go on and on)......
I will believe you.

Now why would Franjoy want to get those loser songs released? None of them had hit potential and could not have been that good.

[marv2]

It is odd for anyone to think that Reach Out and Touch may have had a Mary Wilson sound in the background, considering that she was missing on many of the backgrounds as far back as 1965. The sound we thought was Mary and Cindy was often the Andantes. As least with Flo, you could hear her once in a while in a more distinctive way.

I can't imagine Motown would try and inject "Supremes" after ejecting them for the 5 years previous to 1970.

Never mind.........hehehehehehe

[franjoy56]

that is correct. but give them credit for the songs they did record from that period
ones that comes to mind that is on the same album as someday we'll be together is
"blowing in the wind" and two on the love child album "I'll set you free" and he's my sunny boy" two fabulous tracks.

[marv2]

When you say ejecting them it is meant that Berry Gordy only saw Diana Ross where the supremes as a group was concerned. No wonder Flo [[who you could hear more than once in a while) after seeing the group being torn apart, for a potential solo star, acted out., it is no wonder Jean Terrell left after she saw her pennies being evaporated with unnecessary promotion that was meant to put money in Motown; pocket until she got sick of it.
Jean T in Mary's Supreme Faith ""There not even keeping an accuarte accounting. "Don't tell me you ca give me two pennies just because I was only making one at first and that i'm suppose to be happy with it." We know who is singing on those songs and you Jobete, we know how fixed you are on Diana Ross, and I applaud you for it, but the Supremes are the Supremes and no star can change what their voices produced on those albums that are timeless to this day.

Jean claimed that Motown would even charge flowers that were sent to other artists, wishing them well on their opening nights to the Supremes account!

[alexgarret]

Well Large Marge then
that's the gospel truth!

[marv2]

that is correct. but give them credit for the songs they did record from that period
ones that comes to mind that is on the same album as someday we'll be together is
"blowing in the wind" and two on the love child album "I'll set you free" and he's my sunny boy" two fabulous tracks.

Fran, I don't know about you, but there is no one on this board that is going to even slightly convince me that Mary and Florence were not on the majority of recordings. I know they were on ALL of the hits. Cindy Birdsong is on some recordings during 1967-69 but as Revvy said, why waste them on album filler material? Anything Jobeterob says is pure nonsense and you have already discovered his ulterior motives for trying to down play all of the Supremes contributions to those recordings. Yeah, they had to have Diane do them as she got what she wanted and that was to be the sole lead singer. After Berry nearly worked her ass to death she complained that she was doing most of the work in those last two years she was in the group!

[midnightman]

The Waters sisters sung background on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". The Supremes and Diana Ross were in two different plateaus in 1970 so I doubt Motown would've asked Mary and Cindy to add to the song. Anyway, I always believed "Someday" was definitely supposed to have been a Diana Ross solo debut. You have to understand, most of the songs released during the Diana Ross and... era of the Supremes had background vocals mostly associated with the Andantes. "Someday" was never intended to be a Supremes single but Berry had to find something to make Diana go out in a big way so he credited it to the Supremes, I agree with this story. The fascinating thing is that Diana hasn't sung this song in years. I don't think she sang it much during most of her solo career afar from Motown 25, while Mary sung it numerous times [[I did like the version she did on Only the Strong Survive). So in Mary's view, she wears Someday as a badge of honor in the history of the Supremes but for Diana, it's mostly the pre-DRATS Supremes songs that hold a badge of honor more so. Of course only Love Child and Someday were the only really significant songs of the post-Florence period but that's besides the point. I regard "Someday" as a Diana Ross classic though.

[midnightman]

I believe Mary and Cindy were not on many recordings between 1967-69 because they were constantly touring which is far better money than making records...especially filler songs for an album that they weren't going to be performing live anyway. There's no sense in taking valuable time working out intricate background harmonies when the big money is in live gigs.

Plus Berry Gordy was always forcing only Diana in the studio so they didn't wanna waste any more money convincing the other girls to join in. Besides, Mary and Cindy were allowed not to do it if they didn't want to. Diana, on the other hand, of course, had no other choice. Mary and Cindy also had more of social lives than Diana did and really didn't have a say in anything. She couldn't take a break. Mary and Cindy on the other hand couldn't have been bothered and Motown basically didn't bother to call them to sing over Diana.

[milven]

I believe Mary and Cindy were not on many recordings between 1967-69 because they were constantly touring which is far better money than making records...especially filler songs for an album that they weren't going to be performing live anyway. There's no sense in taking valuable time working out intricate background harmonies when the big money is in live gigs.
If the reason is that they were too busy touring, then Diana was touring too. How did she manage to get back to record and the other two Supremes couldn't - or if the accounts of Love Child are accurate, wouldn't?

[reese]

I don't think the reason for Mary and Cindy not being on some recordings has anything to do with touring schedules. If that is the case, wouldn't the same apply to the Marvelettes or the Vandellas?

More than likely, the Motown producers could have the track [[including background vocals) ready so that when Diana, Martha, Gladys, and Wanda were available, they could get the lead vocals done quickly instead of having to work out harmonies with the other group members. Thus getting the recording out quicker.

[ralpht]

It may seem like the sad truth to some of you, but at times back-up singers are used simply because they are better at it than the act itself. The goal was to sell records.

[revvy]

There could be some truth to what you say, Ralph. The Andantes were professional backup singers and that's basically all they did, whereas Mary and Cindy had to learn dance routines, make television appearances, do PR, etc. In the end, it was really only Diana's voice that Motown cared about. Shame because I thought the Diana. Mary, Cindy combo had a nice blend [[of course not the gospel-inspired powerhouse blend with Flo, but pleasing nonetheless). The Andantes always sounded kind of whispery and non-distinct to my ears.

[carole cucumber]

It may seem like the sad truth to some of you, but at times back-up singers are used simply because they are better at it than the act itself. The goal was to sell records.

Thank you, Ralph, for setting the record straight as one who was there. For some here to imply that Fran Heard & staff's involvement with session logs and tape filing cards aren't to be trusted is absurd.

[ralpht]

Carole,
Fran and her staff were impeccable in the records they kept.

[midnightman]

It may seem like the sad truth to some of you, but at times back-up singers are used simply because they are better at it than the act itself. The goal was to sell records.

Gordy surely didn't take the Andantes' vocals in vain.

[marv2]

The Waters sisters sung background on "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". The Supremes and Diana Ross were in two different plateaus in 1970 so I doubt Motown would've asked Mary and Cindy to add to the song. Anyway, I always believed "Someday" was definitely supposed to have been a Diana Ross solo debut. You have to understand, most of the songs released during the Diana Ross and... era of the Supremes had background vocals mostly associated with the Andantes. "Someday" was never intended to be a Supremes single but Berry had to find something to make Diana go out in a big way so he credited it to the Supremes, I agree with this story. The fascinating thing is that Diana hasn't sung this song in years. I don't think she sang it much during most of her solo career afar from Motown 25, while Mary sung it numerous times [[I did like the version she did on Only the Strong Survive). So in Mary's view, she wears Someday as a badge of honor in the history of the Supremes but for Diana, it's mostly the pre-DRATS Supremes songs that hold a badge of honor more so. Of course only Love Child and Someday were the only really significant songs of the post-Florence period but that's besides the point. I regard "Someday" as a Diana Ross classic though.


I don't know anywhere that it says the Waters [[Maxine, Julia and perhaps their brother Oren or Luther Waters) are singing backup on the song "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You". No one has stated that either. It was not recorded the same night as "Someday We'll Be Together" either. So no proof and nothing to lead me to that conclusion.

I agree that I would not believe Motown would ask Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong to add to the song as some sort of special request. I do believe that it is highly probable that Mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong recorded the backing vocal tracks during a routine recording session with Johnny Bristol producing. The song had no significance in scheme of things back when it was recorded.

It is a mystery to me [[well, not really..... hehehehehehe) as to why Diana Ross refrains from ever singing "Someday We'll Be Together" in her act all these years! LOL!!!

[stephanie]

There is a way to end this right now. For anyone who thinks that Mary and Cindy are not on the Diana Ross and the Supremes billed songs [[some of them not ALL of them) listen to some of the songs on the Love Child Album, and Stormy from the Unreleased Masters and talk to AVID Supremes fans who know these albums and see what answer you get. Marv is right for YEARS people were saying Flo was not on My World and then we heard Flo in the studio on the I Hear a Symphony double edition. For years we heard Flos single was not played outside of Detroit....It Doesnt Matter How I say It is in my house as we speak because my brother heard it on the radio here in DC and bought it when it came out! Mary Wilson may have some of her timelines not all perfect but there is no denying her voice and Cindys on some of those songs in 67-69 no matter how small the amount of songs they were on.

[franjoy56]

There is a way to end this right now. For anyone who thinks that Mary and Cindy are not on the Diana Ross and the Supremes billed songs [[some of them not ALL of them) listen to some of the songs on the Love Child Album, and Stormy from the Unreleased Masters and talk to AVID Supremes fans who know these albums and see what answer you get. Marv is right for YEARS people were saying Flo was not on My World and then we heard Flo in the studio on the I Hear a Symphony double edition. For years we heard Flos single was not played outside of Detroit....It Doesnt Matter How I say It is in my house as we speak because my brother heard it on the radio here in DC and bought it when it came out! Mary Wilson may have some of her timelines not all perfect but there is no denying her voice and Cindys on some of those songs in 67-69 no matter how small the amount of songs they were on.

No only this which is a good asertion, there were also several tracks on the Funny Girl Album that also need to be credited to Mary & Cindy's lovely backup and in some instances interplay with diana
"HIs Love Makes Me Beautiful" "If A Girl Isn't Pretty" "Don't Rain On My Parade" "I'm The Greatest Star" as well as several tv show where they did not lip sych [[i.e. The Hollywood Palace 3/8/69)

[captainjames]

ahhhhhh HA !!!!
took the words right out of my mouth and once again a voice of authority and reason.
Why add Mary and Cindy at this point when "he" [[BG) already had a working and bankable solution. This goes along with THE MOTOWN SOUND, "The Sound of Young America". Usually mixed with one or the other ;The Funk Brothers, The Andantes, HDH, Nick and Val or The Waters.



It may seem like the sad truth to some of you, but at times back-up singers are used simply because they are better at it than the act itself. The goal was to sell records.

[franjoy56]

ahhhhhh HA !!!!
took the words right out of my mouth and once again a voice of authority and reason.
Why add Mary and Cindy at this point when "he" [[BG) already had a working and bankable solution. This goes along with THE MOTOWN SOUND, "The Sound of Young America". Usually mixed with one or the other ;The Funk Brothers, The Andantes, HDH, Nick and Val or The Waters.

Why add them well because they were the Supremes, and we preferred their sound to the Andantes. If you listen to "I'm Livin In Shame" on the Hollywood Palace 3/8/69, and then listen to the released version with the Andantes version on background the TV version with Mary and Cindy wins hands down. And if Motown preferred to use the A's on the Sup's records in 67 forward then the sales records speak for themselves except for an ocassional top ten a Love Child or Someday.

[marv2]

Why add them well because they were the Supremes, and we preferred their sound to the Andantes. If you listen to "I'm Livin In Shame" on the Hollywood Palace 3/8/69, and then listen to the released version with the Andantes version on background the TV version with Mary and Cindy wins hands down. And if Motown preferred to use the A's on the Sup's records in 67 forward then the sales records speak for themselves except for an ocassional top ten a Love Child or Someday.


When Mary and Cindy began recording with Jean Terrell , the records became more soulful and not bland sounding such as the ones done by Diana Ross with Andantes doing the backgrounds.

[franjoy56]

Using Nick and Val, The Blackberries, or the A's on the Diana solo records were a great idea, especially the ones with Nick and Val and the Blackberries those records had a real dramatic effect especially A'int No Mountain HIgh Enough, Surrender, and Rember Me.

[milven]

Using Nick and Val, The Blackberries, or the A's on the Diana solo records were a great idea, especially the ones with Nick and Val and the Blackberries those records had a real dramatic effect especially A'int No Mountain High Enough, Surrender, and Remember Me.
I love the songs you mentioned. But at their time of release, I couldn't help thinking that they sounded more like group records than some of her work with the Supremes , where the mikes of the other members were turned down. And I still wonder why that was after hearing the new versions of MY WORLD and SYMPHONY where the mikes are up.

[captainjames]

Uh come on people the records did not stop selling because Mary, Flo or Cindy was not in the background that was not it and we have went through this many times before. Motown lost HDH some of their best writers......................UH yeaaaahhhh !!!

There was trouble during this time at the company and to be perfectly honest with you the background sound was turned down so much on those records that I myself at times forgot they were even there. Mr. Gordy had a formula and he knew "The Motown Sound" lost a bit of flavor when HDH left because they knew what made Diana's voice sell. BG and Motown was back to the drawing board and they tried everything from Smokey, Nick and Val and Hal David and Burt Bacharach. Honestly, at this point he really didn't give a lot of effort to it because he was concentrating on getting her out of the group. This addition of background singers was not unique to the Supremes and it was used on several artists and groups at Motown and even carried over to the New Supremes. So back to the original question I truly believe "Someday" was intended for Diana Ross' solo record. I am not sure Motown was contemplating if it was to be her first solo but indeed a solo record for her.


Why add them well because they were the Supremes, and we preferred their sound to the Andantes. If you listen to "I'm Livin In Shame" on the Hollywood Palace 3/8/69, and then listen to the released version with the Andantes version on background the TV version with Mary and Cindy wins hands down. And if Motown preferred to use the A's on the Sup's records in 67 forward then the sales records speak for themselves except for an ocassional top ten a Love Child or Someday.

[midnightman]

That's the one thing people forget when they mentioned why the Supremes' records weren't selling like they used to. Motown was changing as a company. Hell the music world was changing rapidly. The Supremes' once-hit making sound was considered outdated even before Florence left. We have to remember, right around 1967, pop audiences were starting to listen to earthier R&B [[now labeled soul music) by the likes of James Brown, Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding and Sam & Dave. Marvin Gaye responded by getting rougher in his music [[same with the Temptations). So did Stevie Wonder. Then we have Sly and the Family Stone in 1968 and that totally changed the dynamic of R&B. The Supremes just could not compete. Aretha Franklin was dominating the charts and racially and socially, the United States was going through a rough phase after the fallout of the mid-1960s civil rights movement [[black nationalism, the Black Panthers, people switching from bouffants and processes to Afros, white flight in urban cities like Detroit and Chicago). Whereas before when the civil rights movement was in swing and pop and soul music was allowed to coalesce, the Supremes dominated that period, partially due to Diana, yes, but also due to Holland Dozier Holland, whose music blurred the lines of pop, rock and roll, soul and gospel, which made the Supremes and the Four Tops a perfect fit. But afterwards, by 1967, '68, the Supremes were trailing even then so their reign was gonna end regardless if Mary and Cindy were on the hit records or if Florence stayed.

People here seem to think if certain things hadn't happened, the Supremes would've still been the queens of pop by 1968 but that wasn't the case. It had less to do with Motown changing the name of the group and more to do with changing times. Besides Motown was treating Diana like a solo act anyway by 1967.

[skooldem1]

And if Motown preferred to use the A's on the Sup's records in 67 forward then the sales records speak for themselves except for an ocassional top ten a Love Child or Someday.

You have got to be kidding the way you dismiss those records. "Love Child", and "Someday We'll be together" were the biggest selling Supreme singles ever.

*edited out: I'm gonna make you love me

[skooldem1]

When Mary and Cindy began recording with Jean Terrell , the records became more soulful and not bland sounding such as the ones done by Diana Ross with Andantes doing the backgrounds.

Not true at all. With the changing times and with Diana Ross at the helm, they were already on that path. "Love Child", "I'm gonna make you love me" and "Someday We'll be together" already took the group to a more soulful sound. Diana Ross continued on with the soulful sound on her debut album brilliantly produced by A&S.

[midnightman]

^ Now that is true. It's arguable that their heyday era was purposely more pop than soul. "Love Child", "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "Someday" definitely were earthier compared to "Come See About Me".

[marv2]

^ Now that is true. It's arguable that their heyday era was purposely more pop than soul. "Love Child", "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" and "Someday" definitely were earthier compared to "Come See About Me".

Major disagreement! LOL! "Come See About Me" was perhaps their most popular record of all of them with the Soul, R&B audience!

[marv2]

Unfortunately the Soul/R&B Billboard Charts were suspended during all of 1964 . I am sure it would have been number one there for at least a couple of weeks.

[skooldem1]

"Come see about me" was one of their most successful songs.

[jobeterob]

The heyday of the Supremes pop sound was the monster hit, You Can't Hurry Love. After that, it appeared there was more of a turn back to some rock, You Keep Me Hangin On, and more soul with Love Child and Someday We'll be Together. That was the time of the ascendancy of Aretha Franklin and James Brown, so it makes sense that they turned back more to a soul sound.

We talk about who might have sang on You Can't Hurry Love behind Diana but I listened to it today and it hardly matters. It was a lot more significant who sang behind her on Reach Out and Touch and Remember Me and Reach Out I'll Be There and Ain't No Mountain High Enough and those people weren't often identified. Ironic how the background started to be more prominent in her solo career than it was with the Supremes.

It makes you wonder about Ralph's comment about background singers like the Andantes being better than some of the acts.

[marv2]

"Come see about me" was one of their most successful songs.

and considered one the most soulful by the Original group.

[marv2]

The heyday of the Supremes pop sound was the monster hit, You Can't Hurry Love. After that, it appeared there was more of a turn back to some rock, You Keep Me Hangin On, and more soul with Love Child and Someday We'll be Together. That was the time of the ascendancy of Aretha Franklin and James Brown, so it makes sense that they turned back more to a soul sound.

We talk about who might have sang on You Can't Hurry Love behind Diana but I listened to it today and it hardly matters. It was a lot more significant who sang behind her on Reach Out and Touch and Remember Me and Reach Out I'll Be There and Ain't No Mountain High Enough and those people weren't often identified. Ironic how the background started to be more prominent in her solo career than it was with the Supremes.

It makes you wonder about Ralph's comment about background singers like the Andantes being better than some of the acts.

They just weren't better than the Real Supremes!

[midnightman]

The heyday of the Supremes pop sound was the monster hit, You Can't Hurry Love. After that, it appeared there was more of a turn back to some rock, You Keep Me Hangin On, and more soul with Love Child and Someday We'll be Together. That was the time of the ascendancy of Aretha Franklin and James Brown, so it makes sense that they turned back more to a soul sound.

We talk about who might have sang on You Can't Hurry Love behind Diana but I listened to it today and it hardly matters. It was a lot more significant who sang behind her on Reach Out and Touch and Remember Me and Reach Out I'll Be There and Ain't No Mountain High Enough and those people weren't often identified. Ironic how the background started to be more prominent in her solo career than it was with the Supremes.

It makes you wonder about Ralph's comment about background singers like the Andantes being better than some of the acts.

I think the Waters sisters [[Maxine and Julia) were all over the "Diana Ross" album. The Andantes and [[occasionally) Ashford & Simpson, Jacky Beavers and Johnny Bristol also contributed background vocals in one fashion or another but I believe the Waters were on "Reach Out and Touch" as well. I do agree about the background vocals being more prominent during the first years of Diana's solo career.

[ralpht]

It makes you wonder about Ralph's comment about background singers like the Andantes being better than some of the acts.

In the end, Robb, it is all about selling records. And they sold records at Motown.

[jobeterob]

I'm sure that Louvain would feel good reading Ralph's last comment! A "pick me up" for the Andantes.

[ralpht]

They were as good as it gets, Robb. And I mean that with all sincerity.

[Roberta75]

In the end, Robb, it is all about selling records. And they sold records at Motown.

The lengths some Supremes fans will go to rewrite history on a 43 year old song have me SHH Ralph. You are right my dear man its all about selling records.

I dont really care who is on Someday its a great record and mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong and Diane Ross perform it beautifully on the farewell album and that is good enough for me.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[midnightman]

The lengths some Supremes fans will go to rewrite history on a 43 year old song have me SHH Ralph. You are right my dear man its all about selling records.

I dont really care who is on Someday its a great record and mary Wilson and Cindy Birdsong and Diane Ross perform it beautifully on the farewell album and that is good enough for me.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

They sure did!

[ralpht]

And because you feel "Someday" is a great record, then the company did it's job to give you a high quality product. Which was what it was all about at Motown.

[Roberta75]

And because you feel "Someday" is a great record, then the company did it's job to give you a high quality product. Which was what it was all about at Motown.

They sure did Ralph and thats what its all about.

Fondly,

Roberta

[alexgarret]

Absolutely - you did your best and we thank you for that.

[jobeterob]

And this is generally how you hear all the people from Motown talk these days ~ Louvain, Martha, Mary, Otis, Smokey, Stevie, Diana, Marlene, Cindy, Ralph, Russ, Eddie, Gladys, Dennis, the Pips and Tempts and Vandellas and Tops and Funks and all the others ~ they were glad to be there and to have, together, created a body of work that is unparalleled.

[ralpht]

Actually. my earliest memory of the song was when I had pulled into Studio A to check on something. As I was getting out of my car, Johnny Bristol was going to his car. I yelled to him that I thought he had a hit on his hands. He laughed and said he was hoping he did. Guess I was right.

[skooldem1]

I don't understand why when Diana Ross went solo some people think she shouldn't have had prominent background vocalist on her records. It is really quite simple. The majority of soul records released at that time had prominent background vocals. Secondly and most important, its BILLING. She could have background vocals as loud as she wanted. It was billed as a Diana Ross record. Not DRATS where she had to share profits with group members who often were not even on the records.

[davidh]

just a point,this record was one of the few certified platinum byRIAA.and i'm gonna make you love me.
Ralph,any reason why the Supremes record sales are so hush hush.????never understood that.

[ralpht]

David,
Wish I could answer your question but I was definitely out of the loop regarding the Sales Department.

[captainjames]

You are write it was certified Platinum around @ 1997. I have often wondered if the sales department or whomever was responsible was totally aware of how to account for shipment and purchase. Its obvious that several Supremes and Diana Ross singles were moving up the charts.

[midnightman]

Well in comparison, the Temptations have had more of their records [[singles and some albums) certify either gold or platinum more so than the Supremes so it makes you wonder...

[jobeterob]

Well airplay was very much wrapped up into the charts. And there were years in the 1960's where the Supremes/Diana Ross were the artist of the year along with the Beatles and they were the artists that moved Motown into the "white" market.

But later on, by about 1968, I suspect the Temptations started to sell more than the Supremes and for the 4 years from 1968 to 1972, the Tempts had to sell more albums than the Supremes. The Supremes basically petered out.

As years went on, there was still a Temptations presence whereas none of the Supremes albums from the 1970's sold well or were big hits. That continued presence and a few hits here and there [[Phoenix Rising etc) and continued touring would have kept the sales going for the Temptations.

[nomis]

Taraborelli was able to get a print out of US Supremes and Diana's solo "7 sales for the 1989 " Call Her Miss Ross"..the sales figures are included in that book....

[Boogiedown]

Great thread!!
Learning much from you all, most interesting .

[midnightman]

@Jobeterob, it seems the Supremes succeeded on airplay than sales figures, whereas the Temptations had both. Sounds like that's what happened with the Beatles' singles as well...

[jobeterob]

Nomis.............but Randy did not use much if any of the sales information he published in Call Her Miss Ross for his updated, more definitive biography on Diana Ross published a couple of years ago. I wonder why not?? It made me think he was no longer sure it was reliable but he didn't say that.

There has been so much said about Motown sales figures and really, there is nothing very definitive out there about it at all.

[jobeterob]

@midnight: I have no real first hand knowledge of who sold what; to me, it is not out of the realm of possibility that some of the sales figures bandied about are not accurate and that some of the singles rumoured not to have sold that much ~ Come See About Me, Stop in the Name of Love, Back in My Arms Again, Nothing but Heartaches and My World is Empty Without You ~ could actually have been amongst their biggest sellers.

Randy never published "the list" that he had; he just used some figures when he wanted to say songs like You Can't Hurry Love, Touch Me in the Morning, Where Did Our Love Go, and Aint No Mountain High Enough sold a couple million each at release date; and that Baby Love and the others I listed above did not sell a million as was previously assumed.

I recall Mary's book said if a single of theirs reached #30 it sold "millions" I believe was her version.

[milven]

just a point,this record was one of the few certified platinum byRIAA.and i'm gonna make you love me.
Ralph,any reason why the Supremes record sales are so hush hush.????never understood that.
I think all sales at Motown were Hush Hush. I don't think Berry wanted people going through his books. Motown did not belong to RIAA which certifies records gold or platinum. The process begins with an independent sales audit by their accounting firm . I see pictures of The Supremes holding gold records during their prime but they are fake. Berry probably had them made [[or spray painted :rolleyes:) for them.

The Supremes received their first legitimate RIAA certified record in the 1980's [[The Anthology LP). Some of their singles were also certified in that period, STOP, SOMEDAY etc.

Today, the accountants calculate what product has been shipped for sale, net after returns, versus product used for promotional purposes.

But years ago, they would certify a record gold just by what was shipped. I'll never forget years ago when Johnny Carson was presented a gold record for on THE TONIGHT SHOW just days after the album was released. Casablanca shipped out enough of the product to have it certified gold immediately. They also sent out loads and loads of promotional LPs to just about everyone in the industry. The record was a complete flop and within months all the product - including the free promotional copies - was returned to the label. The joke in the industry was that the record was shipped gold and returned platinum. :)
6319

[davidh]

i think the Supremes had so much product out at the time that it may have divided sales in some cases where as over a period of years they may have sold a million copies.one of Elvis albums was certifed gold not too long ago. if AT THE COPA/MERRY CHRISTMAS were released all at one time,it may have caused fans to have to choose in some cases. i think motown flooded the market with Supremes albums in some years....1965 and 1968 come to mind

[marv2]

I think all sales at Motown were Hush Hush. I don't think Berry wanted people going through his books. Motown did not belong to RIAA which certifies records gold or platinum. The process begins with an independent sales audit by their accounting firm . I see pictures of The Supremes holding gold records during their prime but they are fake. Berry probably had them made [[or spray painted :rolleyes:) for them.

The Supremes received their first legitimate RIAA certified record in the 1980's [[The Anthology LP). Some of their singles were also certified in that period, STOP, SOMEDAY etc.

Today, the accountants calculate what product has been shipped for sale, net after returns, versus product used for promotional purposes.

But years ago, they would certify a record gold just by what was shipped. I'll never forget years ago when Johnny Carson was presented a gold record for on THE TONIGHT SHOW just days after the album was released. Casablanca shipped out enough of the product to have it certified gold immediately. They also sent out loads and loads of promotional LPs to just about everyone in the industry. The record was a complete flop and within months all the product - including the free promotional copies - was returned to the label. The joke in the industry was that the record was shipped gold and returned platinum. :)
6319

Merv Griffin presented Mary, Jean and Cindy with gold records for "Nathan Jones" on his show in January 1972. This was the show where they introduced their latest single, "Floy Joy".

[midnightman]

@midnight: I have no real first hand knowledge of who sold what; to me, it is not out of the realm of possibility that some of the sales figures bandied about are not accurate and that some of the singles rumoured not to have sold that much ~ Come See About Me, Stop in the Name of Love, Back in My Arms Again, Nothing but Heartaches and My World is Empty Without You ~ could actually have been amongst their biggest sellers.

Randy never published "the list" that he had; he just used some figures when he wanted to say songs like You Can't Hurry Love, Touch Me in the Morning, Where Did Our Love Go, and Aint No Mountain High Enough sold a couple million each at release date; and that Baby Love and the others I listed above did not sell a million as was previously assumed.

I recall Mary's book said if a single of theirs reached #30 it sold "millions" I believe was her version.

Hmm... interesting...

[midnightman]

I think all sales at Motown were Hush Hush. I don't think Berry wanted people going through his books. Motown did not belong to RIAA which certifies records gold or platinum. The process begins with an independent sales audit by their accounting firm . I see pictures of The Supremes holding gold records during their prime but they are fake. Berry probably had them made [[or spray painted :rolleyes:) for them.

The Supremes received their first legitimate RIAA certified record in the 1980's [[The Anthology LP). Some of their singles were also certified in that period, STOP, SOMEDAY etc.

Today, the accountants calculate what product has been shipped for sale, net after returns, versus product used for promotional purposes.

But years ago, they would certify a record gold just by what was shipped. I'll never forget years ago when Johnny Carson was presented a gold record for on THE TONIGHT SHOW just days after the album was released. Casablanca shipped out enough of the product to have it certified gold immediately. They also sent out loads and loads of promotional LPs to just about everyone in the industry. The record was a complete flop and within months all the product - including the free promotional copies - was returned to the label. The joke in the industry was that the record was shipped gold and returned platinum. :)
6319

That just reminded me: I read a piece of Marvin trivia that said Marvin took a photograph of a gold-certified single. But Marvin was already suspicious that the gold record wasn't real, so to investigate, he opened the plaque with the record and turned the record around. Lo and behold, it was a spray painted Supremes record!

[milven]

Merv Griffin presented Mary, Jean and Cindy with gold records for "Nathan Jones" on his show in January 1972. This was the show where they introduced their latest single, "Floy Joy".

Nathan Jones wasn't RIAA certified in 1972 and it still has not been. Gold records have to have an RIAA certification on it to be real. Supremes first gold record was in 1986 for Anthology. After Motown joined and opened their books, older Supremes records were certified and got gold or platinumn records. Baby Love & Stop went gold in 1997 just one month after SOMEDAY went gold.

[marv2]

Nathan Jones wasn't RIAA certified in 1972 and it still has not been. Gold records have to have an RIAA certification on it to be real. Supremes first gold record was in 1986 for Anthology. After Motown joined and opened their books, older Supremes records were certified and got gold or platinumn records. Baby Love & Stop went gold in 1997 just one month after SOMEDAY went gold.

I am just sharing what I saw with my own eyes!

[jobeterob]

This is the thing about "gold records" and "presentations". We can give one too if we want. But what actually "was" and what sold well is another matter. It was a good idea of the Motown PR machine to give a "gold" record for Nathan Jones ~ because there was the promise of them doing well for a while. As Mary Wilson has said, their problem was the albums did not do well and sold less and less.

RIAA certifications, as pointed out by Milven, could be a crock. They were played with a lot as Michael Jackson's career faltered and they were played with for Whitney Houston as well.

But sometimes a song that reached #20 or #30 in the charts actually sold very well.

As has been pointed out many times, TCB went to #1 and the album, Diana Ross and the Supremes Join the Temptations was that album that sold the most of the two.

[marv2]

In fact, Merv announced it, "Nathan Jones" as being their 22nd Gold Record!

[davidh]

just because the gold record wasnt certified by RIAA doesnt mean the song didnt sell a million copies.motown was a singles driven company and i dont think a song like BABY LOVE went to #1 for 4 weeks and didnt sell a million. it did .also remember rock and roll was still kinda young and even RIAA hadnt been around all that long either. if motown had staff in place for audits ,why pay RIAA to do the same thing.
i do remember Merv saying they had 22 gold records also.but also remember that the defintion of a gold record has changed over the years. i think in the beginning it was a record that made a million dollars in $ but then later to a record that actually sold a million copies.
i think the Supremes had 14 million selling singles.
also when Baby love and Stop were certified in 1997 ,it did not include original sales from the 60s.only sales from 1976 forward when motown joined RIAA.

[jobeterob]

also when Baby love and Stop were certified in 1997 ,it did not include original sales from the 60s.only sales from 1976 forward when motown joined RIAA.[/QUOTE]

I did not know this. Probably the accounting records from the 60's were not available by the time of the certifications.

Where did you hear this David?

[milven]

In fact, Merv announced it, "Nathan Jones" as being their 22nd Gold Record!
I'm not doubting you Marv. In fact , I saw that show too. And they probably had twenty two records that sold a million copies each.

I'm just saying that only four of their singles were certified gold. STOP, SOMEDAY, BABY LOVE and I'M GONNA MAKE YOU LOVE ME.

Motown's books were not for an outsider's eyes. I always wondered if Berry gave high ball figures to promoters, radio stations, nightclubs etc and then turned around and gave lowball figures to the artists so that they would get less royalties.

[milven]

just because the gold record wasnt certified by RIAA doesnt mean the song didnt sell a million copies.motown was a singles driven company and i dont think a song like BABY LOVE went to #1 for 4 weeks and didnt sell a million. it did .also remember rock and roll was still kinda young and even RIAA hadnt been around all that long either. if motown had staff in place for audits ,why pay RIAA to do the same thing.
i do remember Merv saying they had 22 gold records also.but also remember that the defintion of a gold record has changed over the years. i think in the beginning it was a record that made a million dollars in $ but then later to a record that actually sold a million copies.
i think the Supremes had 14 million selling singles.
also when Baby love and Stop were certified in 1997 ,it did not include original sales from the 60s.only sales from 1976 forward when motown joined RIAA.

I would guess that the SUPREMES had at least 15 singles that should have gotten a gold record. Singles had to sell a million copies to get a gold record. That changed in 1989 when you only had to sell half a million to get a gold record.

[reese]

That just reminded me: I read a piece of Marvin trivia that said Marvin took a photograph of a gold-certified single. But Marvin was already suspicious that the gold record wasn't real, so to investigate, he opened the plaque with the record and turned the record around. Lo and behold, it was a spray painted Supremes record!

Tony Orlando told a similar story on the Mike Douglas show.

[milven]

That just reminded me: I read a piece of Marvin trivia that said Marvin took a photograph of a gold-certified single. But Marvin was already suspicious that the gold record wasn't real, so to investigate, he opened the plaque with the record and turned the record around. Lo and behold, it was a spray painted Supremes record!

Actually , the history of the first gold record is similar to your Marvin Gaye story

This term got its start in 1942, when RCA Victor took one of the master copies of Glenn Miller's Chattanooga Choo Choo, and sprayed it with gold lacquer as a publicity gimmick to promote the success of the recording with over 1,200,000 records sold. This was the first Gold Record ever awarded to a recording artist. RCA presented several other Gold Record to their artists before the award became an industry-wide award. RCA awarded a Gold Record to Elvis Presley in 1956 for 1,000,000 sales of the single Don't Be Cruel, and to Harry Belafonte in 1957 for the album Calypso [[1956), the first album to sell over 1,000,000 copies.

Several records sold over 1 million copies in the early 1900's, including recordings by Enrico Caruso and Al Jolson. Prior to Miller's recording in 1942, Gene Austin's recording of My Blue Heaven, in 1928, was reported to have sold over five million copies.



The first RIAA Certified Gold Record was Catch a Falling Star by Perry Como in 1958.

The only thing that makes the RIAA Gold Records "real" is that they are certified by the RIAA and have their certified seal. I have some of them and I bet if I opened them up and tried to play them, it wouldn't be the artist on the label. In fact on some of them, the amount of songs on the label does not match the amount of songs on the album

[jobeterob]

From Call Her Miss Ross

Someone suggested releasing SWBT, a tune Diana had recorded earlier. Berry had planned it as ONE of her first solo records, not a Supremes song. Diana was backed by a CHOIR OF VOICES that only the most naive fan would have taken for Wilson and Birdsong. Still this was a superior record ~ a gospel flavored mid tempo arrangement with a composed, easy going delivery from Diana ~ and it began climbing the charts as soon as it was released in October. Eventually, it would become a #1 record, the biggest song of their career [[over two million copies eventually sold) and the fourth INSTANT million seller recorded by Diana as a member of the Supremes, including Where Did Our Love Go, You Can't Hurry Love and Love Child. I'm Gonna Make You Love Me also sold a million.

THOUGH MOTOWN's SALES FIGURES ARE SAID TO BE INCOMPLETE, it SEEMS Baby Love, Come See About Me, Stop in the Name of Love, and You Keep me Hangin On probably all eventually sold a million copies as years of sales were tallied, but they were not million sellers during the time of their original releases. Press hype to the contrary, other famous Supremes singles like Back in My Arms Again, Nothing But Heartaches, Love is here and Now you're Gone and Reflections did not even come close to selling a million; most sold roughly half that much.

Interesting points are that these assertions have been bandied around as FACT when even he says the figures he was relying on ARE SAID TO BE INCOMPLETE. And he also talks about 5 INSTANT million sellers. Well, a million is a million whether instant or not.

The real fact is the available information was "said to be incomplete".

[midnightman]

The platinum plaque wasn't introduced to the RIAA until 1976 for albums selling a million copies. I don't know if it was that year they also said the same for singles that sold a million or not. It might've been 1989 as someone else pointed out.

[luke]

Ralph I love the Waters and many other background singers but I still dont understand if Flo and Mary were doing so well on Baby Love, You Keep Me Hangin On, You cant hurry Love etc why did they need to be replaced by The Andantes? They sure sounded good on those songs and they sold a bundle! And I love to hear distinctive voices rather than often homgonized background voices, e.g the backgrounds on When Youre Young and In Love. People have often said the Marvelettes backgrounds could be off key but they sure sold a lot of records on Please Mr Postman!

[jboy88]

I believe the Andantes were on hand in case the actual group became too difficult to work with. By the time 1968 came around they just stuck with the Andantes and other session singers because they were more cooperative.

[ralpht]

Luke,
I think as the Supremes popularity rose, the choice of material became more and more sophisticated. I'm not saying Flo and Mary could't have copped the parts, but not as expedient and, more than likely, not as good. And as I always say, it was all about selling records.

[reese]

The platinum plaque wasn't introduced to the RIAA until 1976 for albums selling a million copies. I don't know if it was that year they also said the same for singles that sold a million or not. It might've been 1989 as someone else pointed out.

I think the first RIAA platinum single was DISCO LADY by Johnnie Taylor in 1976, selling two million. Gold singles were always a million sold until they reduced the standard to 500,000 in the 90s.

[davidh]

i dont remember exactly wheer i read it but ,i just remember that the origianl sales info was LOST,whatever that means, and the sales for those gold records were based on saled from 1976 till 1997.

[davidh]

here is some info froma fan club,many years ago,not sure how accurate it is but ...you decide for yourself.
BABY LOVE........3,496.000
SOMEDAY WELL BE TOGETHER.....3,077.000
LOVE CHILD...........2,899.000
WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO.....2,700.000
YOU CANT HURRY LOVE.........2,424.000
STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE...2,154.OOO
COME SEE ABOUT ME......1,870.000
I HEAR A SYMPHONY......1,604.000
YOU KEEP ME HANGIN ON...1,758.000
I'M GONNA MAKE U LOVE ME1,557.000
REFLECTIONS ...1,371.000
MY WORLD IS EMPTY....1,277.000
BACK IN MY ARMS AGAIN..1,029.000
STONED LOVE 2,300.000

[davidh]

Supremes albums.....
Greatest hits 1967 ....6,000.000
merry christmas.......3,000.000
where did our love go3,225.000
a go go...........................3,469.000
i hear a symphony........1,894.000
sing hdh..........................1,518.000
more hits........................1,642.000
copa..................................1,316.000
join the temptations.....1,426.000
tcb.......................................1,397.00 0
greatest hits 3..................1,216.000
anthology............................982,000
reflections...........................724.000
love child..............................683.000
together with......................492.000
rogers and hart..................486.000



right on..................................439.000

[davidh]

also,CREAM OF THE CROP.....566,000

[jobeterob]

Luke,
I think as the Supremes popularity rose, the choice of material became more and more sophisticated. I'm not saying Flo and Mary could't have copped the parts, but not as expedient and, more than likely, not as good. And as I always say, it was all about selling records.

You are not mincing your words these days Ralph. Kind of calling a spade a spade.

[ralpht]

Not speaking with a forked tongue, Robb.

[jobeterob]

Not speaking with a forked tongue, Robb.

What I've always enjoyed most about Soulful Detroit is when the people that were actually there ~ set the record straight.

When they do that, a lot of what was so controversial to the fans becomes very simple.

Thanks Ralph.

[ralpht]

Rob,
All in all it was really quite simple. Bring in the best talent for the job and get it done.

[Penny]

Rob,
All in all it was really quite simple. Bring in the best talent for the job and get it done.

It is sad so many of them didn't get paid well or receive any credit. Just doesn't seem right then or now.

Penny:[[

[thanxal]

here is some info froma fan club,many years ago,not sure how accurate it is but ...you decide for yourself.
BABY LOVE........3,496.000
SOMEDAY WELL BE TOGETHER.....3,077.000
LOVE CHILD...........2,899.000
WHERE DID OUR LOVE GO.....2,700.000
YOU CANT HURRY LOVE.........2,424.000
STOP IN THE NAME OF LOVE...2,154.OOO
COME SEE ABOUT ME......1,870.000
I HEAR A SYMPHONY......1,604.000
YOU KEEP ME HANGIN ON...1,758.000
I'M GONNA MAKE U LOVE ME1,557.000
REFLECTIONS ...1,371.000
MY WORLD IS EMPTY....1,277.000
BACK IN MY ARMS AGAIN..1,029.000
STONED LOVE 2,300.000

As much as I prefer the 70s Supremes sound, I find it hard to believe that Stoned Love outsold Stop! It sounds quite suspicious.

[skooldem1]

Stone Love was a big hit. It most likely stayed on the charts longer, which would have resulted in more copies being sold.

[thanxal]

Stone Love was a big hit. It most likely stayed on the charts longer, which would have resulted in more copies being sold.
I agree that SL was a big hit. I'm not trying to slight SL which I like better than Stop! but I still have a hard time believing that Stop! didn't keep selling through the 60s. I have about 5 different pressings of the 45rpm the last of which I think was released in '68 [[and there surely are more). In addition, Stop! was number 1 for two weeks and I think SL peaked at #7. Just odd, that's all [[meaning that I don't want to start another conspiracy theory).

[marv2]

I agree that SL was a big hit. I'm not trying to slight SL which I like better than Stop! but I still have a hard time believing that Stop! didn't keep selling through the 60s. I have about 5 different pressings of the 45rpm the last of which I think was released in '68 [[and there surely are more). In addition, Stop! was number 1 for two weeks and I think SL peaked at #7. Just odd, that's all [[meaning that I don't want to start another conspiracy theory).

Yeah but "Stoned Love" remained on the Pop Charts for 12 weeks. It also reached Number one on the Soul Charts in December 1970.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the More Hits album was a big success, many folks got "Stop" that way..
New Ways was a tremendous album, but many opted to buy the single and not the album..

[davidh]

LOVE IS AN ITCHING IN MY HEART is my favorite single and i cant believe it didnt sell a million copies.? but it only sold about 700,000 copies, but still a great jam to me

[davidh]

the Andantees and the Waters and other were used i think to do the demos for all the groups. as time went by and all the groups became more successful and i suppose it became easier just to use the backing vocals that were already completed. why spend more money on rerecording the vocals again. i dont think motown would get away with this now and i am not saying it's correct but it did fool me ,at least for a while.i didnt notice any difference until the Supremes FOREVER CAM TODAY

[Roberta75]

Rob,
All in all it was really quite simple. Bring in the best talent for the job and get it done.

Isnt that the way most profitable companies run Ralph? make sense to me.

Have a blessed Sunday.

Fondly,

Roberta

[ralpht]

Yes it is, Roberta. Which is why it is called the music business.

[thisoldheart]

i didnt notice any difference [[in the background vocals) until the Supremes FOREVER CAM TODAY
that is exactly the same single when i said to myself "that ain't the supremes"! but, i really liked the sound, and thought it work well. to this day it is one of my favorite diana ross & the andantes singles.

[midnightman]

Weren't the Andantes on "Up the Ladder to the Roof" alongside Mary and Cindy?

[Penny]

I realize now that all kinds of business decisions were made and timing was critical. I must say I had about a nervous breakdown when I found out the truth on The Supremes Christmas Album though. Oh well.

Penny:p

[jboy88]

Weren't the Andantes on "Up the Ladder to the Roof" alongside Mary and Cindy?

They were on quite a few tracks on "Right On" They even got credit on it and the "Floy Joy" lp.

[marv2]

Weren't the Andantes on "Up the Ladder to the Roof" alongside Mary and Cindy?

Nope! It was only Mary, Jean and Cindy.

[jobeterob]

But Marv, for you, the Andantes were on no Supremes records, no songs. So when you answer these other queries, it is hard for you to have credibility; especially not the kind of Ralph and Susaye, George and Andy, Bob Ohlsson. Sorry.

But if is keeps one comfortable, it's all good.

[carole cucumber]

They were on quite a few tracks on "Right On" They even got credit on it and the "Floy Joy" lp.

The Andantes were not credited on the Right On album; and on the Floy Joy
lp their names are listed alphabetically, interspersed among the names of the musicians. At the time of Floy Joy's release , many people would have been unfamiliar with their names and might not have realized that they even were the Andantes.

[carole cucumber]

Nope! It was only Mary, Jean and Cindy.

When Louvain Demps was interviewed in 2 recent evenings of Nightflight, she claimed that the Andandates are on Up The Ladder To the Roof. Employing the 'ask someone who was there suggestion' that I was offered, I know whose recollection I should believe.

[midnightman]

They were on quite a few tracks on "Right On" They even got credit on it and the "Floy Joy" lp.

I figured. The background in "Up the Ladder" sounded like a gospel harmony group. I argued the same type of harmony was used in Diana's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" version and the Andantes were on that too. Besides, that song didn't sound like it was only two other women in the background.

[midnightman]

The Andantes were not credited on the Right On album; and on the Floy Joy
lp their names are listed alphabetically, interspersed among the names of the musicians. At the time of Floy Joy's release , many people would have been unfamiliar with their names and might not have realized that they even were the Andantes.

lol I wonder why they were credited by their names rather than by their group name lol