the BUSINESS of DIANA ROSS & MOTOWN

[dvus7]

Please, if this has been discussed let me know.......I understand that Diana Ross was an integral part of the beginning success of Motown. So that begs the question..Why did Mr. Gordy re-sign her in 1980??? I think it was because Motown did not have the money it had to resign Stevie & Marvin...Does anybody care to comment?? Please don't inject Mary Wilson into this, because Ms. Wilson had nothing to do with the business end!!!

[BayouMotownMan]

Diana Ross had a brilliant resurgence in sales in the year 1980. But overall, her solo career sales were spotty and didnt approach that of Stevie, Marvin or the Commodores. She was seeking Gordy to match the $20 million that RCA offered her. Gordy knew not only could he not afford it but he would likely not recoup that amount. Gordy nearly lost Motown in 1979 after years of lackluster sales and spending a lot of money trying to launch new acts that didn't catch on. He was an astute businessman. He was correct because RCA lost a small fortune on Ross. After 1984 her sales slipped badly and has never recuperated

[BayouMotownMan]

Also keep in mind that Diana Ross was one of the more expensive artists to maintain. Stevie, Marvin, Commodores and Smokey were self-contained acts that wrote, produced and played their own music. Diana Ross was totally dependant on outside writers, producers, arrangers, choreographers, etc. Motown made most of it's money off of Ross's personal appearances and the first two movies.

[dvus7]

Thank you fro comment....BayouMotownMan...When you say that Mr. Gordy almost lost Motown...Are you refering to the "loan & lockbox" issue that he refer to in his book???

[dvus7]

Also keep in mind that Diana Ross was one of the more expensive artists to maintain. Stevie, Marvin, Commodores and Smokey were self-contained acts that wrote, produced and played their own music. Diana Ross was totally dependant on outside writers, producers, arrangers, choreographers, etc. Motown made most of it's money off of Ross's personal appearances and the first two movies.

Good point!!!

[dvus7]

Also keep in mind that Diana Ross was one of the more expensive artists to maintain. Stevie, Marvin, Commodores and Smokey were self-contained acts that wrote, produced and played their own music. Diana Ross was totally dependant on outside writers, producers, arrangers, choreographers, etc. Motown made most of it's money off of Ross's personal appearances and the first two movies.

When did she become expensive??? I don't think tht was the case in the 60's!!!!

[BayouMotownMan]

I'm not sure what you are referring to without going back to look at his book. The reality was 1977, 78 and 79 were bleak years for Motown and Gordy had a bit of a gambling issue of his own. The only artists selling appreciably were Stevie and the Commodores. Rick James was also taking off but a host of other artists as well as veteran artists were doing nothing. Even the sales of singles had declined. Gordy seriously considered selling Motown toward the end of 1979. Several album releases got him out of the red just in time, like "diana," "Midnight Magic," "Where There's Smoke," "Hotter Than July," "Let's Get Serious" and a little later, "Street Songs." Motown was salvaged...for a few years.

[BayouMotownMan]

Because in the 1960s recording contracts were a little different. As time went on it became clear that writers and producers made the most money. The Supremes were no less expensive to produce in the 1960s, the theory being to keep the artist completely dependant on the record company for its success. Gordy had frowned on his artists writing and producing themselves with a couple exceptions.

When Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye burst into the 70s, Gordy saw that self-contained artists garnered more profits because all these middle-men were eliminated

[dvus7]

I'm not sure what you are referring to without going back to look at his book. The reality was 1977, 78 and 79 were bleak years for Motown and Gordy had a bit of a gambling issue of his own. The only artists selling appreciably were Stevie and the Commodores. Rick James was also taking off but a host of other artists as well as veteran artists were doing nothing. Even the sales of singles had declined. Gordy seriously considered selling Motown toward the end of 1979. Several album releases got him out of the red just in time, like "diana," "Midnight Magic," "Where There's Smoke," "Hotter Than July," "Let's Get Serious" and a little later, "Street Songs." Motown was salvaged...for a few years.

His book, in round about way, says that when "Hotter than July" was released that Motown was able to pay off the loan that it had taken out!!! I had also read that Mr. Gordy would take out the "net" and invest in real property..So that he could "see" his wealth!!! I would really love to see ITM books!!!!

[dvus7]

Because in the 1960s recording contracts were a little different. As time went on it became clear that writers and producers made the most money. The Supremes were no less expensive to produce in the 1960s, the theory being to keep the artist completely dependant on the record company for its success. Gordy had frowned on his artists writing and producing themselves with a couple exceptions.

When Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye burst into the 70s, Gordy saw that self-contained artists garnered more profits because all these middle-men were eliminated

I am pretty sure that Mr. Gordy frowned upon the self-containment..Cause then you had to deal with "artistic temperment" and that went conatrary to the "Motown" system!!!

[marv2]

Berry has also said that he had never really made his money back from what he invested in Diana Ross. That she was very expensive to produce. He looked at her being at Motown as having a "prestige" artist, that she was not a money-maker for the organization.

[dvus7]

Well maybe he should have given her, her own label!!!!LOL!!

[dvus7]

Well maybe he should have given her, her own label!!!!LOL!!

Well maybe he should have given her, her own label!!!!LOL!!

[marv2]

Well maybe he should have given her, her own label!!!!LOL!!

Of course he said this after she was long gone from Motown. I don't know how much of what was said was coming from emotion or from a purely business viewpoint, hehehehehehe.....

[nomis]

she didnt help her situation by sending her then Boyfriend Gene Simmons to do the negoitating for her..that pissed Gordy off big time..he was insulted by Simmons attitude at the meeting..but lets not forget this is the same man who let Michael Jackson slip through his fingers..Motown could have had Off The Wall and Thriller..the same man who didnt want to release "Whats Goin On" album..would YOU trust your career to a man who made these kind of decisions ? she was right to get the hell out of there..it was checkmate between her Depasse,Roshkind and Gordy..Motown couldnt get The Boss LP and singles top 10..who wouldnt split ? they told her the chic LP and Upside Down was a mistake, a career ruining mistake..the best contract exit in music history - leaving after "Endless Love" had been no.1 for 9 weeks...classic.

[marv2]

she didnt help her situation by sending her then Boyfriend Gene Simmons to do the negoitating for her..that pissed Gordy off big time..he was insulted by Simmons attitude at the meeting..but lets not forget this is the same man who let Michael Jackson slip through his fingers..Motown could have had Off The Wall and Thriller..the same man who didnt want to release "Whats Goin On" album..would YOU trust your career to a man who made these kind of decisions ? she was right to get the hell out of there..it was checkmate between her Depasse,Roshkind and Gordy..Motown couldnt get The Boss LP and singles top 10..who wouldnt split ? they told her the chic LP and Upside Down was a mistake, a career ruining mistake..the best contract exit in music history - leaving after "Endless Love" had been no.1 for 9 weeks...classic.

That was not smart at all. To have her boyfriend try to negotiate with her ex-boyfriend boss!

[dvus7]

Of course he said this after she was long gone from Motown. I don't know how much of what was said was coming from emotion or from a purely business viewpoint, hehehehehehe.....

@ marv...How credance to give to the statement that Ms. ross made that she had only 200,000 when she left Motown??

[revvy]

That was not smart at all. To have her boyfriend try to negotiate with her ex-boyfriend boss!

Another not-so-smart move was to have the team at TNA/SFX negotiate with Mary and Cindy for the "you know what" tour! hehe

[marv2]

@ marv...How credance to give to the statement that Ms. ross made that she had only 200,000 when she left Motown??

Not much because all of them have quoted different amounts at different times. What she said was that was all the money that she could put her hands on when she left Motown. Now what does that mean?

[jillfoster]

Not much because all of them have quoted different amounts at different times. What she said was that was all the money that she could put her hands on when she left Motown. Now what does that mean?

I took that to mean that's all the money she had that was "liquid". She probably had some stock, and some other investments as well, but Gordy is now worth 300 million according to that site listed in the other thread... and he sold Motown for 61 million, so guess where the other 239 milion came from? I guess the sale of Jobete. Strange that Jobete would be worth more than Motown.... but it was.

[marv2]

Another not-so-smart move was to have the team at TNA/SFX negotiate with Mary and Cindy for the "you know what" tour! hehe

Oh that was totally STUPID! SFX was out of their league. They claimed that they did not even who Mary Wilson [[or Cindy Birdsong) were. Too bad for them they had to find out the hard way! How do you invest millions into anything and not know and understand what the key ingredients or components were.......geez

[revvy]

Oh that was totally STUPID! SFX was out of their league. They claimed that they did not even who Mary Wilson [[or Cindy Birdsong) were. Too bad for them they had to find out the hard way! How do you invest millions into anything and not know and understand what the key ingredients or components were.......geez

Then they did that stupid "Supremes recognition poll." Give me a break! That was a corporate strategy that backfired in their face! Scherrie and Lynda are so quick to state there were 8 Supremes as if to justify their presence. To me [[who was around to see the REAL Supremes on Ed Sullivan in the 1960s), there are really only 4: Diana, Mary, Florence and yes, Cindy Birdsong. I'm with you Marv and screw everybody else who buys into that bunk.

[marv2]

Then they did that stupid "Supremes recognition poll." Give me a break! That was a corporate strategy that backfired in their face! Scherrie and Lynda are so quick to state there were 8 Supremes as if to justify their presence. To me [[who was around to see the REAL Supremes on Ed Sullivan in the 1960s), there are really only 4: Diana, Mary, Florence and yes, Cindy Birdsong. I'm with you Marv and screw everybody else who buys into that bunk.

Yeah, they did a recognition poll, a survey and claimed that no one knew who Mary Wilson was and a few people heard of Cindy Birdsong because of her distinct last name. Funny [[to me) that right after they had that great big press conference at Grand Central Station here in NYC, all the major media outlets ran [[not walked) to Mary Wilson to get her thoughts on this charade. Mary was on television, radio, newspapers magazines and the internet for weeks after the tour was announced. Kinda strange that the national media would run to a Supreme that no one knew..........yeah right! LOL!!!!

[franjoy56]

I would have to add that Jean Terrell should be added as an official Supreme, she had hits on both the r&b and pop charts, and also debut on The Ed Sullivan Show, also gave the group 4 gold records, whether Motown sprayed them or not they were considered gold records with sales of over 500,000.

[revvy]

Yes, Jean Terrell was magnificent!

[heikki]

Hi!

Dvus7 had one request in his first posting above, and it was honoured for about 3 ½ hours :-). I must admit that these Supremes-related threads are quite funny sometimes.

Best regards
Heikki

[smark21]

How did the Supremes manage their money before they signed with Motown? Was one of the girls made the treasurer? Did the others resent the treasurer? Did they fight over money? Did Diana want more than the others? Did any of them embezzle money from the group’s account?

[marv2]

How did the Supremes manage their money before they signed with Motown? Was one of the girls made the treasurer? Did the others resent the treasurer? Did they fight over money? Did Diana want more than the others? Did any of them embezzle money from the group’s account?


There wasn't much money before they signed with Motown. They did however win the big Emancipation Day/Freedom Festival Talent Contest in Windsor, Ontario [[July, 1960).
I think they won something like $100. They gave the money to Mary Wilson for safe keeping and she lost it on one of the carnival rides! LOL!!!

[dvus7]

I took that to mean that's all the money she had that was "liquid". She probably had some stock, and some other investments as well, but Gordy is now worth 300 million according to that site listed in the other thread... and he sold Motown for 61 million, so guess where the other 239 milion came from? I guess the sale of Jobete. Strange that Jobete would be worth more than Motown.... but it was.

Jobete was the "cash cow"!!! From my understanding, Jobete saved Motown Records several times..

[nomis]

Milton managed their fees - pre Motown..his cut and expenses were deducted before the Girls got their share..

[luke]

There were many who were stunned that BG sold Motown for $61 million, feeling it was a ridiculousloy low price, even back then. I think A&M went for like $400 million a few years later. That certainly brings into question just how astute he really was.

[alanbill1074]

Diana [[and many others) probably would have been more profitable if they hadn't recorded so many unused songs. Whilst it has been great for fans with the abundance of "new" material on re-issues over the years, at the time it was very wasteful, in time and money, simply recording so many uneccessary songs. It certainly wouldn't happen now. A lot of the tracks that have surfaced over the years by most Motown acts weren't strong songs, and that must have been apparent even before studio time was spent on them.

It's not like they were even used for b-sides. They were simply canned.

[BayouMotownMan]

Very true Alan

[jobeterob]

But some of the canned material was excellent, for example "Blue". And Diana Ross said she didn't even know it would be released but that bundles of money started to come in from the sale of Blue and she was very happy.

[alanbill1074]

But some of the canned material was excellent, for example "Blue". And Diana Ross said she didn't even know it would be released but that bundles of money started to come in from the sale of Blue and she was very happy.

I didn't say all the material was poor, but that some of it was. You either have a good song or you don't and many of those canned songs simply weren't.

"Blue" was an album of cover versions. There was no faulting the material, but the gap in the market wasn't there for whatever reason to release it then, so I see "Blue" as a bit of an exception.

[jobeterob]

Yes you are right.

Most of the rest of the newly released material was not released for a reason.

I know there is at least one artist around who was not pleased with the release of some unreleased material some years back.

[theboyfromxtown]

Rob

Wasn't it the mix that the said artist wasn't happy about?

[jobeterob]

Rob

Wasn't it the mix that the said artist wasn't happy about?

I never heard that. But it was a long time ago now. My memory is that he/she/they were not happy with the quality of what was released. I thought the reference was to some of the work being unfinished and wasn't of a quality that should have been released. But, I could be wrong.

[theboyfromxtown]

Hmmm....well yes I guess so....BUT

What may sound finished to one person may not sound finished to someone else.

Shame really, cos I really liked what was issued. Additionall, the compiler was real upset though cos he put his heart and soul into getting a release.

[stephanie]

I always though that with all of the concerts and hits Diana Ross had as a solo at Motown that she was making a lot of money for the company as well as herself. I mean she had a pretty good chart run at Motown unless all of the money went to huge lavish productions. I mean when she left to only have 200k in the bank is pretty sad. Im glad she had her name to rely on and her Supremes pedigree.

[jobeterob]

Hmmm....well yes I guess so....BUT

What may sound finished to one person may not sound finished to someone else.

Shame really, cos I really liked what was issued. Additionall, the compiler was real upset though cos he put his heart and soul into getting a release.

John, that makes this even worse; I never heard this part.

It is unfortunate that in the huge success that Motown was, there are the people that came out feeling that they were victims or that they were treated unfairly. Logically, their feelings make sense ~ people that didn't receive credit for what they contributed; people that particpated and got no credit; people that received a few dollars or minimal royalties, who, today, would have received significantly more; group members who got small recognition. And then there were Berry and a few, that got it all.

I guess that is the story of life.......

[supremester]

After WDOLG, Motown didn't spend ten cents on Diana Ross. Every arrangement, minute in the studio, bit of choreography, admonishment from Mrs Powell, cough drop in the studio, limo, hotel, meal, gown, hair, make-up - EVERYTHING was billed against The Supremes' and later Miss Ross' accounts. I'm sure JMC were billed for Time And Love a year after Miss Ross was for the same arrangement. I know it occurred, on purpose, just don't know how early that began. I don't know about picture sleeves but I'm guessing that it was considered and billed as promotion. Diana Ross had 7 top 20 LPs and 6#1 singles in 10 years - they made plenty off of that, but not as much as they did off of her concerts - that's where the REAL money was with her. Her fees for most of the 70's were among the highest in the industry and worked a lot. Ditto her years with the Supremes. Years of arena dates around the world and all they got was 100K in '70? Don't tell me it was her lavish lifestyle - she didn't do anything but work - she didn't even eat!

[skooldem1]

Thank you. I was thinking the same thing. She paid for everything. Most of her producers were Motown producers. It left one motown pocket and went into another. People have been on this "spotty" record agenda for years. No not everything she released went to number one. That is fact. But also fact is that she was one of the top 5 solo recording artist in the 70's to mid 80's. She made tons of money for Motown records. As far as her husband goes, I remember a time when this older woman who was working at Barnes and Nobles or some book store years back ringing up my purchase of something Diana/Motown related. She said she was reading the JET magazine story of Diana's husband being upset at her spending money. She said jokingly, that girl is spending her own money, he needs to get over that. It was a funny moment.

[jillfoster]

Yes you are right.

Most of the rest of the newly released material was not released for a reason.

I know there is at least one artist around who was not pleased with the release of some unreleased material some years back.

Oh PLEASE. When it comes to recording artists, most have ZERO perspective. Some think utter crap is fabulous, and others pick apart their work and think NOTHING is ever good enough. Unless somebody hits a sour note, or burps or farts in the microphone, RELEASE IT. Dusty Springfield said that she couldn't listen to "The Look Of Love" without getting nasueous, so gives you an idea of how artistic temperament runs amok and many performers are way too hard on themselves.

[supremester]

You're so right, Jill. The record companies don't release it all because it cpsts money to do so, and they try not to flood the market with crap for fear of spoiling the chances of the good stuff. Most of the Motown stuff I've heard on Miss Ross, all 50 groupings of The Supremes, Tops, Tempts, J5 etc has been below the level of what got released. Take Life Beats for example. Good track, good enough vocals, better than good chorus but insipid verse -too annoying for Right On! or NWBLS - maybe it might have worked on Touch - I haven't played that album in years. Take Touch - who ever thought that mess would hit? Yeeeech. I would have lowered the key a hint and given the whole thing to Mary - or given Cindy Mary's part, but the Mary/Jean thing makes a bad record worse. It was the last gasp for Frank Wilson who had obviously run out of steam for JMC. [[How wise of Berry Gordy to put JMC with Smokey - do people STILL Think he was trying to kill JMC? He could have just released Promises Kept and let Frank Wilson do it LOL) Ross' We Can Never Light That Old Flame Again has 8 million versions - each worse than the next - except 1 that almost works, but still it just tries too hard. Might have fit on the Ross LP I guess - that was a mess anyway. These things were, IMHO, best left in the dark. Blue, on the other hand, was shelved for marketing purposes - I guess so a masterpiece like Last Time I Saw Him could come out.

Now that MP3's exist, there will be a lot more rare stuff coming out as there is so little cost involved in their release. Also, so little chance to verify sales for royalties.



Oh PLEASE. When it comes to recording artists, most have ZERO perspective. Some think utter crap is fabulous, and others pick apart their work and think NOTHING is ever good enough. Unless somebody hits a sour note, or burps or farts in the microphone, RELEASE IT. Dusty Springfield said that she couldn't listen to "The Look Of Love" without getting nasueous, so gives you an idea of how artistic temperament runs amok and many performers are way too hard on themselves.