Do you Think Flo and Mary had regrets..

[Jimi LaLumia]

about inviting 'Diane" Ross to join their group in the first place?
Do you think they'd have been better off with someone else?
or would they never have had those cars, furs, world travel, tv appearances and 'FAME" with someone else?

[skooldem1]

They didn't invite Diana. Diana had already been selected by one of the Primes. Mary was the only one "invited". Flo had been asked by Milton I believe. She invited Mary. I forget who the other one was, Barbara or Betty had already been selected as well.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the story that I recall Mary Wilson telling more than once is that she and Flo were together and then Mary suggested Ross, something to that effect..and your reply in no way, shape or form answers my original thread..Flo and Mary could have walked away at any time in the early days, before Motown finally signed them..

[skooldem1]

I was going by the Supreme Bible....
To answer your question, no they wouldn't have been better off. With Ross leading the group they were the most successful American group of the 60's. You can't top that. The only thing they possibly could have done with another lead singer, was get to sing more leads. But that is a rare thing. There were some groups, but not many at all where leads were shared. I believe that although Diana may have gotten on their nerves at times, that she was their girl. They saw and admired her determination, and talent, and enjoyed the ride. Till things went sour.

[skooldem1]

Dreamgirl pg. 30

She [[Flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called the Primes and their manager, Milton Jenkins, about forming a "sister" group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited.

pg. 32

Up in Milton's room- a bachelor suite he shared with the Primes- I was one of four nervous young girls. There was me; Flo; Paul Williams girlfriend, Betty McGlown, a tall, pretty, dark-skinned girl who seemed a little older; and a fourth girl, about my age, with large, luminous brown eyes- my new friend Diane Ross.

The Primettes were never Flos' group. She was asked to be in it and help fill out the roster- So she invited Mary. As Mary says in her book, 2 other girls had already been chosen.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and from all we've heard it was Gordy who told people to Call Her Miss Ross!, who told her to distance herself from the others, etc and that this caused her to become isolated , depressed and angry when everyone else was having 'fun'.. but Gordy rarely is portrayed as the 'heavy' ,it's always her.. and I wonder what Motown might have been[[or not been) without her..

[skooldem1]

Lets not forget that it was Diana Ross that got them the audition for Motown Records.

[jobeterob]

They had no hits on their own. The rumour is that Mary Wilson has only sold 4000 CDs total in her career.

The smartest and luckiest thing that ever happened to any of these women was their connection to Diana Ross, Berry Gordy and Motown.

And I'm sure their biggest career regret was losing that connection.

[Jimi LaLumia]

and all over petty BS and jealousy..Welcome to show Biz!
read the Mary Wells book [[it's amazing) and you'll see how zany FAME can be in terms of 'turning' people...

[arrr&bee]

Hindsight is always-20/20,the supremes would've been done for before they even began had it not been for two very fortunate things happening for them...berry hearing something in the nasally tone of the skinny girl and ester edwards getting them booked on dick clark's tour,that's it!!

[Jimi LaLumia]

actually, the powerful 10-10 WINS NY DJ Murray The K getting totally behind playing the hell out of "Where Did Our Love Go" and thereby forcing NY powerhouse 77 WABC AM onto the record [[Cousin Brucie, etc), is what made the record go 'viral'while the girls were on that Dick Clark tour, as it spread from NY[[and Detroit of course) to the rest of America..

[midnightman]

Jesus Christ...

[Jimi LaLumia]

yes, he had something to do with it as well..

[midnightman]

^ No he didn't lol

[midnightman]

Dreamgirl pg. 30

She [[Flo) had been approached by a member of a male vocal trio called the Primes and their manager, Milton Jenkins, about forming a "sister" group to perform with his clients. Two other girls had already been recruited.

pg. 32

Up in Milton's room- a bachelor suite he shared with the Primes- I was one of four nervous young girls. There was me; Flo; Paul Williams girlfriend, Betty McGlown, a tall, pretty, dark-skinned girl who seemed a little older; and a fourth girl, about my age, with large, luminous brown eyes- my new friend Diane Ross.

The Primettes were never Flos' group. She was asked to be in it and help fill out the roster- So she invited Mary. As Mary says in her book, 2 other girls had already been chosen.

Shoot. Everyone knows the Primettes/Supremes were really Milton Jenkins' group. Berry Gordy bought out his contract from Milton. The group never had a designated leader or lead singer. The Marvelettes by comparison were started by its members themselves. The Supremes weren't.

[Jimi LaLumia]

so would the group have been THE SUPREMES without Ross?
was Flo hankering to do "The Lady Is A Tramp"?

[midnightman]

The Supremes wouldn't have been "Supremes" without Maxine Powell, the Gordy sisters, Berry Gordy, Maurice King and Holland-Dozier-Holland. We wouldn't be talking about them if it wasn't for the aforementioned. Diana was gonna join them regardless if they signed with Motown or not. Like I said, it wasn't like Florence actually formed the group herself.

[supremester]

From what Berry has said, and looking a Motown history, I don't think Berry would even have auditioned The Primettes without Miss Ross. Diana got them in thru Smokey and Berry signed them because of Diana. Neither Mary, nor especially Flo, had crossover voices, and that was his ultimate goal. Look at Berry's first female money acts: Marvelettes, Mary Wells, and Martha - ALL arrived thru other channels [[pitching songs etc) ..... He hit the jackpot with DMF - for those who never saw them live: nothing on TV can convey the experience of those 3 live. The energy of that package was overwhelming - each girl brought something.

[BayouMotownMan]

The magic that made the Supremes were their distinct personalities, features and sounds. They just looked like the right package. I doubt any grouping of original Supremes would have made it any bigger.

As far as Mary and Flo having regrets, I'm sure there are and were some. But they knew in Ross they had an aggressive, go-getter and would speak up where perhaps they would not have. She added fashion and flare to the group which set them apart from the other girl groups. She didn't have as good a voice especially in the early days, which was quite nasal, but she had presence and could work a stage like no one else. Flirting with the men, identifying with the women. She added the perfect, final spark. If you look at early videos, Ross would bump and grind, shaking those hips like a female Elvis Presley while Mary and Flo stood demurely. She just didn't care who was looking. She was going to make you notice her one way or the other. When you look at the Supremes, your eye just naturally gravitated toward Diana Ross.

[skooldem1]

But they knew in Ross they had an aggressive, go-getter and would speak up where perhaps they would not have.

I totally agree. This is not to take anything away from the others, but this is what they liked and admired about Diana. Every group of friends or business partners all have that person who makes things happen. As I said before, they all enjoyed the ride, until things went bad. What they liked and admired, they also began to hate.

[midnightman]

The magic that made the Supremes were their distinct personalities, features and sounds. They just looked like the right package. I doubt any grouping of original Supremes would have made it any bigger.

As far as Mary and Flo having regrets, I'm sure there are and were some. But they knew in Ross they had an aggressive, go-getter and would speak up where perhaps they would not have. She added fashion and flare to the group which set them apart from the other girl groups. She didn't have as good a voice especially in the early days, which was quite nasal, but she had presence and could work a stage like no one else. Flirting with the men, identifying with the women. She added the perfect, final spark. If you look at early videos, Ross would bump and grind, shaking those hips like a female Elvis Presley while Mary and Flo stood demurely. She just didn't care who was looking. She was going to make you notice her one way or the other. When you look at the Supremes, your eye just naturally gravitated toward Diana Ross.

And there you have it...

[stephanie]

In the beginning if you listen to their early songs Mary sounds as if though SHE is the better singer. I mean the Lupine material but I DO have to say it was the three of them that made it strong along with the magic of HDH. Smokey couldnt get a hit on them and that was with Ross as a lead so there are all inclusive factors which have been mentioned already. Diana Ross was going to be a success at anything she did because of her drive and willingness to do anything to get to the top. Mary would have been a model or an actress and Flo would have been a nurse if they didnt become singers. Diana I think would have followed her passion for fashion design. Its a good thing she went to Motown because I dont think Ross would have made it at any other label back then unless she was aligned with someone at the top.

[floyjoy678]

BayouMotownMan I agree with everything you said although I did pay attention to Flo as much as I did Diana. I have to admit and be honest I didn't really start to notice Mary till after Flo left.

[franjoy56]

where did you get the rumor that Mary has sold only 4000 cd's in total, I beleive the single "Red Hot" sold more than that???

[franjoy56]

I think in their own way both Mary and Flo appreciated the leadership Diana provided for their trip to the top, the only regret i think they really regretted was taking Diana away from the comradiarre they enjoyed as a group that showed itself in a better light up until the Fall of 1965, after which it was no longer the same as a group Ross was moved up front by Berry, and it caused a great deal of friction.

[marv2]

where did you get the rumor that Mary has sold only 4000 cd's in total, I beleive the single "Red Hot" sold more than that???

He made it up or someone he likes made it up and he just keeps posting it to try to make Mary Wilson look bad. It is not true at all.

[franjoy56]

I just heard from Mary, and I would never mention this to her, however the Supremes gown exhibit is gearing up in Philly to be something special.

[jobeterob]

The figure of 4000 CDs was quoted on here by another member. He'll chime in if he/she wants to.

It has nothing to do with making anyone look bad or being mean to them; we leave that to Marv.

But Mary and the other Supremes are hitless as solo artists unless you call Disco Lucy a Lynda Laurence hit.

Mary did a great job of making a career out of something that started as a background singer; she says so herself all the time. It just didn't turn into hits or sales.

[marv2]

The figure of 4000 CDs was quoted on here by another member. He'll chime in if he/she wants to.

It has nothing to do with making anyone look bad or being mean to them; we leave that to Marv.

But Mary and the other Supremes are hitless as solo artists unless you call Disco Lucy a Lynda Laurence hit.

Mary did a great job of making a career out of something that started as a background singer; she says so herself all the time. It just didn't turn into hits or sales.

Mary Wilson has the all time best selling music related autobiography [[close to 2 million sold).
What are you talking about? How does having hits keep you from acting like a heathen and being thrown out of public restaurants?

[BigAl]

I'm certain that, toward the end, Flo and Mary must have felt great resentment and Diane's ego [[fed by Gordy) got in the way eventually, but I doubt regret as an emotion would have come into play. As has been pointed out many times in this thread and elsewhere, "The Supremes" was an entity comprising dozens of components: Mary, Diane, Florence, Eddie Holland, Lamont Dozier, Brian Holland, Berry Gordy, Gil Askey, The Funk Brothers, Maxine Powell, Cholly Atkins, among others. It wasn't just three gals. Without any one of those components the act would not have succeeded as it did and I'm certain everyone involved was fully aware of this.

[Jimi LaLumia]

Mary's book sold well and paid her bills for a while, but as always, the book, like everything else in Mary's career, wasn't about Mary..the book, like everything else, was about 'Diane',wasn't it...

[milven]

Mary's book sold well and paid her bills for a while, but as always, the book, like everything else in Mary's career, wasn't about Mary..the book, like everything else, was about 'Diane',wasn't it...

Publishers usually demand something "juicy" when they publish a book. The first transcript is usually rejected and the author has to put some good gossip into it. Even a big shot like Barbara Walters had to put in her autobiography that she had an affair with a black senator.

Mary had to put that stuff in about Diana to get her book published. No one was really interested in the fact that she was sent to be raised by her aunt. But I think she may have done it reluctantly. Every time she was on a talk show, the interviewer always brought up the parts of the book that were about Diana. Mary always backtracked and gave some kind of excuse as to why Diana did or said something that was negative and tried to put a positive spin on it. She was, in a way, defending Diana's actions. So, then why did she write about them? She had to, to get the book published. And the book put her back in the spotlight , and back on American TV where she had not been for a time.

The book was a best seller because people wanted an insider's view of what made Diana tick. It helped Mary's career and finances , but I think it put a wedge between her and her "we will always be sisters" Diane.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the book was 'triggered', as I recall, by the push and shove dust up between the girls on MOTOWN 25, Mary basically says so herself, that the incident drove her to 'tell all'...
I have an old issue of People, early 80's, Mary performing at a cabaret "New York New York" in, yes, NY, and Ross showed up to support her..Mary's highlighted quote in the magazine? .."I always hated Diana"[[she obviously wasn't calling her Diane yet).. and this was before MOTOWN 25, around the time that JelyBean offered her a hit, "Holiday" and she rejected it, much to the delight of the up and coming Madonna, who had a breakthrough hit with it..Oh Mary, don't you weep...

[BayouMotownMan]

The magic that made the Supremes were their distinct personalities, features and sounds. They just looked like the right package. I doubt any grouping of original Supremes would have made it any bigger.

As far as Mary and Flo having regrets, I'm sure there are and were some. But they knew in Ross they had an aggressive, go-getter and would speak up where perhaps they would not have. She added fashion and flare to the group which set them apart from the other girl groups. She didn't have as good a voice especially in the early days, which was quite nasal, but she had presence and could work a stage like no one else. Flirting with the men, identifying with the women. She added the perfect, final spark. If you look at early videos, Ross would bump and grind, shaking those hips like a female Elvis Presley while Mary and Flo stood demurely. She just didn't care who was looking. She was going to make you notice her one way or the other. When you look at the Supremes, your eye just naturally gravitated toward Diana Ross.

[marv2]

I am sure Diana Ross has had some huge regrets, causing her to become an alcoholic late in life.

[BayouMotownMan]

I have never read anywhere where Mary Wilson said she hated Diana

[REDHOT]

I have[[also)never read that Mary Wilson hated Diana Ross,and i'm sure it's not true,maybe the things she did,but that's it,Midnightman i have to agree with you,it took a lot of people to make The Supremes Mary Wilson Florence Ballard and Diana Ross SUCCESSFUL,I'm sure Mary and FLO had regrets,and making Diana the lead singer maybe one of them,not that Diana was bad singing Holland Doizer Holland's songs,but all three ladies should have been giving the chance to sing lead,no matter what,will Mary Wilson was the one i'd watch the most,yes Mary Wilson all the way lol,
Please stay positive

[Jimi LaLumia]

all three should sing lead?...lol..based on what?..toooo funny!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAWSiWtUK2s&feature=share

[midnightman]

I'm certain that, toward the end, Flo and Mary must have felt great resentment and Diane's ego [[fed by Gordy) got in the way eventually, but I doubt regret as an emotion would have come into play. As has been pointed out many times in this thread and elsewhere, "The Supremes" was an entity comprising dozens of components: Mary, Diane, Florence, Eddie Holland, Lamont Dozier, Brian Holland, Berry Gordy, Gil Askey, The Funk Brothers, Maxine Powell, Cholly Atkins, among others. It wasn't just three gals. Without any one of those components the act would not have succeeded as it did and I'm certain everyone involved was fully aware of this.

Yeah the Supremes were always a business even when they were the Primettes. It would've been different if the group had met on the street and decided to form the group on the spot. That kinda diminishes whatever role either of them [[Diana, Flo and Mary) had at the very beginning. You can say Diana did push them to succeed because she had connections somewhat [[Smokey notwithstanding) but really it was a combination of a lot of things. By 1966, the Supremes ceased to be a group of its own merit and by that I mean a group that had its own power to decide what to do, they had become a corporate entity of show business. Florence left partially because of that and Mary stayed because she knew of what it entailed her. You have three young girls who didn't know what they were getting into. Even a driven performer like Diana Ross was naive about everything that was going on. In the end, it is what it is.

[midnightman]

I have[[also)never read that Mary Wilson hated Diana Ross,and i'm sure it's not true,maybe the things she did,but that's it,Midnightman i have to agree with you,it took a lot of people to make The Supremes Mary Wilson Florence Ballard and Diana Ross SUCCESSFUL,I'm sure Mary and FLO had regrets,and making Diana the lead singer maybe one of them,not that Diana was bad singing Holland Doizer Holland's songs,but all three ladies should have been giving the chance to sing lead,no matter what,will Mary Wilson was the one i'd watch the most,yes Mary Wilson all the way lol,
Please stay positive

I honestly don't know. A few years ago I would've agreed that all three should've taken turns. Looking back, they paled in comparison to their stronger-singing sisters [[Marvelettes, Vandellas). The early years had all three of them singing lead and none of them helped to score a hit. It seems the light pop fare of songs like Where Did Our Love Go and Baby Love was where the Supremes' soul really was despite their own urge to, as Florence said, "do something strong like 'Please Mr. Postman'." Besides most of their hits fit Diana's voice. Mary to this day has no desire to sing them anymore and Florence loved the hits but she probably knew Diana had the right sound for it. Also Motown didn't really let the Supremes themselves develop as a group. If they had done that, we wouldn't be talking about them having any "regrets". Mary, for the record, also has said how much she still loves and adores Diana.

[SupremeBoy]

I don't get why some of you are so nasty and downright disrespectful to each other. I also do not understand why some fans of The Supremes don't just celebrate this amazing group as a collective whole and continually choose to focus and make such derogatory statements to not only each other but about the members of the group.

It gets tired and old really fast and makes those that are active participants in this mud slinging come off as embittered, foul and miserable individuals.

[midnightman]

I don't get why some of you are so nasty and downright disrespectful to each other. I also do not understand why some fans of The Supremes don't just celebrate this amazing group as a collective whole and continually choose to focus and make such derogatory statements to not only each other but about the members of the group.

It gets tired and old really fast and makes those that are active participants in this mud slinging come off as embittered, foul and miserable individuals.

I tell you why people are so disrespectful to each other [[as well as the Supremes as a whole), they're bored and they wanna find fault in anyone. You got too many who wanna divide the Supremes into their own little groups: the Flo fans, the Diana fans and the Mary fans. After about ten years of seeing the same old, same old, I think it's time for this bickering to die a slow and painful death.

[franjoy56]

Mary's book sold well and paid her bills for a while, but as always, the book, like everything else in Mary's career, wasn't about Mary..the book, like everything else, was about 'Diane',wasn't it...

The mud slinging is still in session according tothe above passage.
the book was about THE SUPREMES, not just Diana Ross, and further when the book was written Diana Ross though a huge concert draw had her last hit record a few months before.

[franjoy56]

The figure of 4000 CDs was quoted on here by another member. He'll chime in if he/she wants to.

It has nothing to do with making anyone look bad or being mean to them; we leave that to Marv.

But Mary and the other Supremes are hitless as solo artists unless you call Disco Lucy a Lynda Laurence hit.

Mary did a great job of making a career out of something that started as a background singer; she says so herself all the time. It just didn't turn into hits or sales.

Jean Terrell had a #72 r&b hit with "Don't Stop Reaching for the Top" a record that was recorded on the A&M label and was not promoted because Jean did not want to tour, as she was a Jehovah's Witness, the album "I Had to Fall in Love" was fabulous wish it would see a rerelease on Hippo select.

[captainjames]

The Supremes were riding high back in the day. They were Number 1 in their day so; I don't really see how they could have done any better at that time. You asked if they regretted Diana being asked into the group, my thoughts are NO. Reason being they loved her because there was so much history between them. That being said Diana got the publicity and the spotlight and the longer rehearsals. Mary and Flo and later Cindy got the same gifts, salary and wardrobe. Note; after viewing The Supreme collection I found it great that Motown very seldom steered away from the identical gowns. I don't think they had regrets with her being asked in the group whether it was by Milton, Cal, Eddie, Paul or Otis that asked Diana.
Now, I do think Flo had regrets later after leaving the group. I can’t remember which book it was because Lord knows I have read so many but Flo said something to the fact that she wanted to call Diana and Tommy asked her why and she said something like she just felt she had messed things up.
Also, I think Mary had regrets of Diana leaving. They needed to sit down as a group like they did as the Primettes and talk things out, however they couldn't because of all the emotions that had geared up at this time and keep in mind they were still young. Mary had once said things had to change even if Diana stayed so I don’t really believe she wanted her to leave so badly. Let’s face it they were eating, driving new cars and living in new homes and being wine and dined by kings [[ALL THREE).

[midnightman]

^ Exactly. There was a bond between the three of them. This is what Mary herself even pointed out on "Unsung". I think them being so young [[remember they were only 20, 21 years old when they finally had a hit and they had been singing together since they were 15, 16), naive and being influenced by power [[Berry Gordy) is what led to what happened later. I think between 1959 and 1962, those three realized they needed each other. A fourth girl would come and go but it was something about the "three of them" that was special. In this, the Supremes weren't that unique in how they had their fallout. Once it became a business, Motown made all the decisions. None of the members - despite what people think about Diana - had any input on what went with what. Whatever the boss said went and it was clear the boss was Mr. Gordy.

[nomis]

I dont think they regretted Diana..they didnt like her behaviour at times and were mystified by some of her actions..but in those last 2 years of Florences life she spoke about Diana's personality with a reasonable amount of balance..she thought Diana had been rude at times but Ballards resentment was at Gordy..she went to her grave despising that man she had nothing good to say about him and placed the blame for her problems on him..Mary on the other hand was resentful of Ross enough to write two unflattering books that changed how the public percieved Diana there had been rumours for years she could be tempremental and demanding and here was her supposedly a very close friend acknowledging what had been hinted at and yet I think the true resentment was for Gordy.after all she engaged in a lengthy legal battle of wits with him that dragged on for years..and Diana still could recall vividly his cruel streak in her 93 autobiography..I think to percieve The Supremes story as a cinderella tale - with Flo as the victim,and Diana as the wicked step sister deprives all four of them of the multi dimensional people they were in an extordinary situation that had never happened in the entertainment buisness before..there are five sides to The Supremes story - Diana's,Flos,Marys,Berrys and the TRUTH..each of them dealt with stress a different way - Diana didnt eat she had annorexia,Flo drank and listened to her family who really were not giving her the best advice,Mary chose to party..and party hard..and Berry relaxed through gambling...each of them forming dysfunctional habits and dependencies..that Flos rape was never discussed speaks volumes of all of their communication skills..they were young,rich and on a working schedule that was gruelling and almost sadistic but what they gave the world transcends the scandals..they gave joy,hope,inspiration,love...I think that is stronger in their souls than any "resentment".