Flo 1967 - ". . . pushed aside set aside like a doll on a shelf"

[Methuselah2]

This link contains some very interesting information, wonderful photos, and an insightful viewpoint. And just as she's about to be forced out of the group, there's Flo--with her hair cut very short and looking more beautiful than ever.

". . . and you'll understand why I sit and cry."

http://illkeepyouposted.typepad.com/ill_keep_you_posted/2012/04/index.html

[franjoy56]

This link contains some very interesting information, wonderful photos, and an insightful viewpoint. And just as she's about to be forced out of the group, there's Flo--with her hair cut very short and looking more beautiful than ever.

". . . and you'll understand why I sit and cry."

http://illkeepyouposted.typepad.com/ill_keep_you_posted/2012/04/index.html

This is the reason why the Supremes never sounded the same after the night Flo was fired, These photos prove that Flo was the visual spark of the Supremes fabulously beautiful and a voice to boot as well. Queen of the House, up everyday at 6. If you listen to the Supremes at the Rosstertail you can see why with Florence Ballard holding up that background
The suprmes couldl not go wrong. We miss and love you Flo.

[RossHolloway]

Didn't Florece want out of the group?

[skooldem1]

I find it odd that some Florence fans push forward the notion that Flo was so real and wasn't into the "fakeness" of the Supremes. That is bull. What Florence didn't like, and more importantly- couldn't handle was the business aspect of Show BUSINESS. We have all read how once Florence came into money again after winning a lawsuit or something, that the first thing she did was reach into her "Supremes" bag, buying clothes, furs, etc. She loved all that- almost any woman would.

[Methuselah2]

Didn't Florece want out of the group?

From what I've often read, she wasn't happy about being in a group that she had started that was so intensely focused on making and highlighting Diana as a star to the detriment of both Mary and herself. And I've always gathered that any leaving of the group was a decision if and when that she wanted to retain. It would seem she was extremely unhappy about the direction that the group took once their popularity took off. That part of it doesn't seem to have been something that she had ever originally envisioned. Sadly, we're denied the opportunity of knowing exactly how she felt. Piecing things togther by what's been heard and conclusions being drawn and assumed is always a dicey proposition. Things are not always as they may seem.

[Methuselah2]

I find it odd that some Florence fans push forward the notion that Flo was so real and wasn't into the "fakeness" of the Supremes. That is bull. What Florence didn't like, and more importantly- couldn't handle was the business aspect of Show BUSINESS. We have all read how once Florence came into money again after winning a lawsuit or something, that the first thing she did was reach into her "Supremes" bag, buying clothes, furs, etc. She loved all that- almost any woman would.

It would seem that there were some aspects of being in the group that Flo relished. And other aspects that she could never reconcile. Every work situation always has to be weighed. Show business is just so all-consuming and difficult to control. And what's important to people is always subject to change.

[luke]

Thx, vg researched article. One thing that I dont think is given enough wait is Flo hated to fly. She looked so exhausted when they arrived in England in 65.

[Roberta75]

Thx, vg researched article. One thing that I dont think is given enough wait is Flo hated to fly. She looked so exhausted when they arrived in England in 65.

Why was she exhausted? Flo didn't push the plane. She more than likely sat in a first class seat eating fancy food and sipping the best wine and champane.

Where did you read that Florence Ballard hated to fly? Can you please supply a link that states that?

Roberta

[RossHolloway]

So when did the meeting at Berry Gordy's mansion take place? The meeting that included all the Supreme's and Florence's mother? I don't think we will ever know everything that took place leading up to what happened in Las Vegas. We may know bits and pieces, but we will never know the entire story.

[reese]

So when did the meeting at Berry Gordy's mansion take place? The meeting that included all the Supreme's and Florence's mother? I don't think we will ever know everything that took place leading up to what happened in Las Vegas. We may know bits and pieces, but we will never know the entire story.

I think it was April of 1967, a few days before they did the Hollywood Bowl gig with Cindy.

[floyjoy678]

It was stated she hated to fly by her cousin on both the Unsung episode and a special on E! that was done on her years ago. Which I can sympathize cause even though I've flown several times I still have anxiety issues every time it comes to getting on an airplane.

The thing that puzzles me about Flo's firing is why did Berry fire her in April knowing that it'd take a few months to get Cindy out of the Bluebelles. He fires Florence then replaces her with Cindy a few days later only to have Florence come back.

[markdtiller]

It's very suspect that her ABC album was bought by Motown. Anyone know any more about this? I don't recall mention of it in the various books.

[RossHolloway]

It's very suspect that her ABC album was bought by Motown. Anyone know any more about this? I don't recall mention of it in the various books.

I wonder if ABC is now controlled by Universal.

[Laserdk]

The ABC/Dunhill catalogue is most definitely owned and controlled by Universal as MCA snapped that up in late '78/early '79.

Ivor

[nabob]

The ABC/Dunhill catalogue is most definitely owned and controlled by Universal as MCA snapped that up in late '78/early '79.

IvorUniversal in Europe was kind enough to finally release Florence's album with a few bonus cuts.

[franjoy56]

Universal in Europe was kind enough to finally release Florence's album with a few bonus cuts.

Unfortunately the firing of Flo Ballard from the Supremes, via Bery Gordy is one of the saddest chapters in the Supremes story and it still resonates today because of the spiraling effect it had on things that followed. :[[

[revvy]

The thing that puzzles me about Flo's firing is why did Berry fire her in April knowing that it'd take a few months to get Cindy out of the Bluebelles. He fires Florence then replaces her with Cindy a few days later only to have Florence come back.

It's my understanding that the Hollywood Bowl gig was an extremely important one and Berry didn't want to take chances with Florence possibly not showing. You are correct in that it took Motown a short while to get Cindy out of the Bluebelles and they let Blondie back to fulfill previous engagements.

[Glenpwood]

It's very suspect that her ABC album was bought by Motown. Anyone know any more about this? I don't recall mention of it in the various books.

I believe that comes from Tony Turner's All That Glittered. Never heard it confirmed that Motown actually bought it. MCA did distribute Motown product in the 80's and ABC records was bought by them in 1979 so thats probably how they wound up in the same vault. He also claims the Flo: My Story manuscript Ballard was composing before her death was sold to Motown by Tommy Chapman for quick cash so it could be shredded. Tony's book is written with the drama amped to the max so he probably just heard the tapes were in the same place and assumed the worst or got passed incorrect info.

[luke]

Some writers have said Flo was kind of on a trial basis and may have come back if she "towed the line." Diana herself told this to Oprah in an interview recently posted here.

[milven]

How terrible that would have been for Cindy, if , after she burned the bridge between Patti and the Bluebelles, she was told "Never mind, we don't need you anymore!"

Although, it would have prepped her for what came years later, when Linda and Jean left Mary standing alone and Cindy was asked to come back only to be told basically the same thing by Pedro

[marv2]

How terrible that would have been for Cindy, if , after she burned the bridge between Patti and the Bluebelles, she was told "Never mind, we don't need you anymore!"

Although, it would have prepped her for what came years later, when Linda and Jean left Mary standing alone and Cindy was asked to come back only to be told basically the same thing by Pedro

It happens to people everyday in jobs all over the country.

[floyjoy678]

Right so why didn't Berry wait till July when Cindy was available to have that meeting at his house when he fired Florence? I don't buy the whole "back on a trail basis", I believe Berry made up his mind and her messing things up in New Orleans weeks earlier where she left Diana and Mary to perform as a duo was the final straw for him or else he wouldn't have fired her unless Diana and Mary convinced him to bring her back. Although I do find it interesting he went about replacing her with Marlene Barrow as early as early 1966.

[skooldem1]

Florence was not reliable.

[smark21]

True she had some serious personal and emotional issues, but in the end Florence Ballard was not as committed a show business professional as Diana Ross and Mary Wilson. Florence missed shows due to her drinking, had trouble learning dance steps, and argued too often with the boss. As in any other work situation, such a person has to be let go and her replacement Cindy Birdsong was far more reliable and professional.

[144man]

It happens to people everyday in jobs all over the country.

And that somehow makes it all right?

[marv2]

And that somehow makes it all right?

Where do you see the word "right" in what I posted?

[luke]

Florence Ballard was a tremendous asset to the Supremes. The printed reviews of their shows never mentioned any problems with Florence-in fact the reviews of her final shows in Vegas raved about them all!! She was told she was lazy when she was under doctors orders for pneumonia. She was frequently called fat for having a beautiful figure. Im tired of some people aligning with Motown and victimizing her. How many performers have missed any shows? How many did Flo miss? Diana was ill in Boston and had the rest of the run cancelled and stormed out of the Latin Casino.

[marv2]

Florence Ballard was a tremendous asset to the Supremes. The printed reviews of their shows never mentioned any problems with Florence-in fact the reviews of her final shows in Vegas raved about them all!! She was told she was lazy when she was under doctors orders for pneumonia. She was frequently called fat for having a beautiful figure. Im tired of some people aligning with Motown and victimizing her. How many performers have missed any shows? How many did Flo miss? Diana was ill in Boston and had the rest of the run cancelled and stormed out of the Latin Casino.

I agree! Florence was great and the Supremes would not have been as great as they were without her.

[antceleb12]

I wonder how different things could have been for her had she not been raped. Of course, all we can do is speculate, but I think it's very possible that her rape was at least in some part responsible for her distrust in people and her emotional instability.

Personally, I don't think her problem was not being the lead. I think that she thought that she was getting screwed over professionally and financially. She once said that in Vancouver, Berry told her that if she wanted to leave she should just do that, and Florence responded with the fact that she had said she wouldn't stand in the way of Diana leaving, but did not want to leave the group.

I think her depression makes it hard to judge how she really felt at times. Even in the early days of the group she was at odds with Diana and Berry. And then at other times, she proved to be a real success [[Berry would compliment her on her comedic timing, or how the men seemed to adore her in Japan). Although she is gone, it's great that some of her tapes and autobiography were released a few years ago so we could get her side of the story.

[144man]

Where do you see the word "right" in what I posted?

Just trying to understand what point you're making. So you mean it's just a fact of life that things happen like that?

[Jimi LaLumia]

it IS a fact of life that if you accept employment with a 'boss' and sign an agreement,and while getting a house and a cadillac, furs and clothes, etc be made by the 'boss' into a world famous 'name', and then not show up for work or show up in bad condition[[because you're unhappy with the direction that the 'boss' has chosen), try to undermine a successful business project, publicly yell, scream at and threaten the 'boss' in public, etc....then you will be FIRED!... Welcome to America!.....
Motown is a business, not a 'social services ' center..

[detmotownguy]

it IS a fact of life that if you accept employment with a 'boss' and sign an agreement,and while getting a house and a cadillac, furs and clothes, etc be made by the 'boss' into a world famous 'name', and then not show up for work or show up in bad condition[[because you're unhappy with the direction that the 'boss' has chosen), try to undermine a successful business project, publicly yell, scream at and threaten the 'boss' in public, etc....then you will be FIRED!... Welcome to America!.....
Motown is a business, not a 'social services ' center..

Of course Motown is a business, but to run an effective business there are elementary rules that must be followed. Businesses are responsible is for maintaining positive group dynamics, effectively addressing group conflict, being open to diverse points of view from team members. And yes, most successful businesses do provide services to address employee issues. But Motown had a very autocratic style of leadership that did not lend itself to employer/employee relations.

[marv2]

Just trying to understand what point you're making. So you mean it's just a fact of life that things happen like that?

It is a fact of life.

[Jimi LaLumia]

"The Supremes", in business terms, was not a business 'group', but a product, to be sold, established [[the list of names Flo chose from was a list provided by Motown) and marketed by the 'boss'...The boss and the company determines the direction, look, style of the product... the 'poor Flo" people [[of which I was one , until things got so ridiculous) try to equate Flo as being an equal to Berry Gordy.. well guess what? she wasn't, everyone from Diana Ross ,Marvin , Stevie and Michael Jackson on down found that they worked for, not with Berry Gordy and Motown..I luv Flo as an artist and wonder what would have happened if she 'went with the flow" instead of fighting every step of the way, but the bottom line is that she blew it, her choice, she left the 'boss' no other options except to protect 'the product', ***THE SUPREMES**, and the show went on without her...period...

[midnightman]

Florence wanted to be an R&B singer but Diana and Mary were more content in being crossover pop stars because Berry had given them the opportunity to reach beyond their label mates. Florence was never happy though. I think had she not had been sexually assaulted at 16 she would've dealt with it better. But there was always tension between the three of them. Florence once mentioned that she, Mary and Diana weren't as close as they were when they started. She just didn't mentioned Diana, she put Mary in the picture too. She felt she had no one to support her. Like David Ruffin, Florence had a lot of demons and they weren't gonna be easily resolved in such a tight ship as Motown was.

[Roberta75]

Flo is at peace now and with her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Is there any point in rehashimg this again?

Roberta

[marv2]

Flo is at peace now and with her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Is there any point in rehashimg this again?

Roberta

Yes! Florence Ballard was a favorite of many of us here. If you don't like our discussing her, then go somewhere else!

[luke]

I thought on Soulful Detroit we discuss Motown on the Motown Board. Have I missed something?. Is there a list of what can and cannot be discussed? I guess I missed something.

[Roberta75]

I thought on Soulful Detroit we discuss Motown on the Motown Board. Have I missed something?. Is there a list of what can and cannot be discussed? I guess I missed something.

There's a lot you miss my dear but that's a whole nother story. LOL

Roberta

[Kamasu_Jr]

Flo is at peace now and with her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Is there any point in rehashimg this again?

Roberta
I agree. It's a tired and old subject that makes no sense rehashing again and again, in my opinion.

[motony]

in all the groups at Motown there would have been stand-ins for a sick or injured member espcially a group as big as the Supremes as too many peoples income is dependent on their personal appearances.There would NOT be stand ins for the lead singer, though.

[luke]

Someone at Motown said Telma Hopkins filled in for Diana for an engagement. Also, The Supremes appeared without Jean Terrell for an engagement.

[Roberta75]

I agree. It's a tired and old subject that makes no sense rehashing again and again, in my opinion.

I'm with you Kamasu. All we know about Flo's leaving or being fired from the Supremes is 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 10th hand and even then it is all subjective. The woman is free from all that now and in Heaven with God and Jesus Christ her Lord and Savior. I doubt Florence Ballard [[IMO) would want to be labeled a victim which a few in this here forum try to make her.

Have a blessed day.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[Roberta75]

Someone at Motown said Telma Hopkins filled in for Diana for an engagement. Also, The Supremes appeared without Jean Terrell for an engagement.

That's quite a bombshell you've dropped on us. I'm going to have a real hard time concentrating on my work today after hearing this. LOL

Roberta

[marv2]

That's quite a bombshell you've dropped on us. I'm going to have a real hard time concentrating on my work today after hearing this. LOL

Roberta

Oh come on, you know we give you a reason to live....... hehehehehe!

[marv2]

I'm with you Kamasu. All we know about Flo's leaving or being fired from the Supremes is 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 10th hand and even then it is all subjective. The woman is free from all that now and in Heaven with God and Jesus Christ her Lord and Savior. I doubt Florence Ballard [[IMO) would want to be labeled a victim which a few in this here forum try to make her.

Have a blessed day.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

You blatantly contradict yourself right out in the open. Subjective? Then how would you know how Florence Ballard wants to be perceived?

[luke]

LOL every good wish as long as you agree.

[marv2]

LOL every good wish as long as you agree.

hehehehehehehehehe............!

[smark21]

Poor, poor Flo

[midnightman]

Flo is at peace now and with her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Is there any point in rehashimg this again?

Roberta

I know... people are still trying to find people to blame. Flo's been with Jesus for 36 years. Why bring it up and again make heroes and villains out of people?

[luke]

Quite the opposite. The truth shall set you free. I see no blaming above. Just facts. Can I get a witness?

[floyjoy678]

I agree no one in this thread is making Flo out to be a victim, only stating facts. All I did was ponder on why Berry kept switching Flo and Cindy in and out of the group for a few months there in '67, how is that making Flo out to be a victim?

[midnightman]

If no one's calling so and so a victim [["poor Flo"? lol), then why the contradictions? Berry was already ready to take Flo out by then and Flo seem to oblige by that and helped make Berry's decision easier by her decisions. No one's a victim in this though I agree.

[smark21]

Well the title of this thread, quoting some sad sack lyrics from Ask Any Girl, certainly sets the tone of casting Flo as a victim. There are some Florence Ballard fans on the net who revel and get off on viewing her as a victim.

[marybrewster]

I think the bottom line is: take away the gowns, take away the champagne; being a Supreme was a JOB. A job where you don't show up late. A job where you don't show up drunk. And say what you will, it is NOT up to your co-workers to fight for you. You have to fight for yourself.

Flo Ballard's story is tragic, but everything that happened to Flo, Flo did to herself.

[marv2]

I think the bottom line is: take away the gowns, take away the champagne; being a Supreme was a JOB. A job where you don't show up late. A job where you don't show up drunk. And say what you will, it is NOT up to your co-workers to fight for you. You have to fight for yourself.

Flo Ballard's story is tragic, but everything that happened to Flo, Flo did to herself.

Not quite everything............. She got screwed and she did not do that to herself!

[Roberta75]

I think the bottom line is: take away the gowns, take away the champagne; being a Supreme was a JOB. A job where you don't show up late. A job where you don't show up drunk. And say what you will, it is NOT up to your co-workers to fight for you. You have to fight for yourself.

Flo Ballard's story is tragic, but everything that happened to Flo, Flo did to herself.

Not everything marybrewster. The rape played a big part of Flo's downfall but that aside, being a Supreme was a job within an industry that demand being punctual and professional. Flo played her own deck and it ended real tragically.

Thankfully Florence in Heaven with her Lord and Savior Jesus Christ now and her demons are far behind her.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[franjoy56]

The unhappiness Flo felt exploded in anger and disruption in the Supremes camp, namely because she was unhappy about not being able to sing lead and or highlighting Diana ross in the Supremes to the extend that Mary and Flo weren't allowed to talk. Look at the Roostertail show, Mary and Fo hadn't said one word on that stage other than window dressings until Flo did her adlib at the end. No Motown is not a social service, but give me a break, This girl had a voice that needed to be put to better use period.

[RossHolloway]

The unhappiness Flo felt exploded in anger and disruption in the Supremes camp, namely because she was unhappy about not being able to sing lead and or highlighting Diana ross in the Supremes to the extend that Mary and Flo weren't allowed to talk. Look at the Roostertail show, Mary and Fo hadn't said one word on that stage other than window dressings until Flo did her adlib at the end. No Motown is not a social service, but give me a break, This girl had a voice that needed to be put to better use period.

How was Florence's role in the Supreme's any different that the members in the Marvelettes, the Vandellas, the Velvelettes, the Miracles, the Four Tops, the Contours, the Allstars, or the Miracles?

[Jimi LaLumia]

it was not any different at all...
Diana Ross had been presented as the LEAD SINGER since the "MEET THE SUPREMES" album , when they were still nobodies..
jealousy/anger aimed at the global success of Diana Ross spurred all the nonsense and lead Florence down a very bad and sad path..

[arrr&bee]

Folks have to remeber that berry was a[businessman]first and motown was his business,now did flo get shafted? Yes and so did mary if you want to be moral about it but who's talking about morality,berry saw that diana's whiney voice with work could put em over the top so he used it,flo knew that she couldn't win but she fought it her way and sadly lost she along with[paul williams]are the most tragic figures in motown history.

[midnightman]

Well the title of this thread, quoting some sad sack lyrics from Ask Any Girl, certainly sets the tone of casting Flo as a victim. There are some Florence Ballard fans on the net who revel and get off on viewing her as a victim.

If anything Flo wasn't a victim. You can't say she was a quitter. Sure there was a period where it did look real bleak [[1971-1974 period) but afterwards, she started to get off her feet. Had health problems not halted that momentum, we wouldn't be talking about Florence like this. She probably wouldn't like anybody who claims they're fans of hers or fans of the overall Supremes to think she was a "victim". She did have a rough life [[being raped would definitely have a rough affect on anyone's life) but she persevered. They show that in "Unsung".

[midnightman]

Folks have to remeber that berry was afirst and motown was his business,now did flo get shafted? Yes and so did mary if you want to be moral about it but who's talking about morality,berry saw that diana's whiney voice with work could put em over the top so he used it,flo knew that she couldn't win but she fought it her way and sadly lost [b]she along with[paul williams]are the most tragic figures in motown history.

No they're not. The Marvelettes were because they got dissed openly. Flo got dissed behind her back, which is just as bad. I still question what went on with Paul because to this day I think someone popped him and they made it look like he killed himself. No, not buying it...

[rod_rick]

No they're not. The Marvelettes were because they got dissed openly. Flo got dissed behind her back, which is just as bad. I still question what went on with Paul because to this day I think someone popped him and they made it look like he killed himself. No, not buying it...

I remember awhile ago there was a discussion about doing an Unsung on Jean Terrell or Mary Wilson. Paul Williams I would say is a great Unsung story that should be told imo. I think Mary would be a good for the seris that TVONE produce show called "Life After". It tells the story of stars and what happened after their star powered run in the limelight.

[antceleb12]

How was Florence's role in the Supreme's any different that the members in the Marvelettes, the Vandellas, the Velvelettes, the Miracles, the Four Tops, the Contours, the Allstars, or the Miracles?

Florence's [[and Mary's) roles were different because the group started out [[with Florence and Mary being co-founders) as a group in which there was no defined lead singer. Whereas the Marvelettes, Miracles and Vandellas came to Motown with already established lead singers, the Supremes came with no assigned lead singer, and with all girls [[with the exception of maybe Diana) having the notion of an equal role within the group.

Plus, among fans, the Supremes were unique in that EACH girl had a distinct personality. The public knew their names, knew their nicknames [[the quiet one, the sexy one, etc.). On top of the music, they had a real comedic element, provided predominantly by Florence [[Diana's stage patter had to be scripted more times than not, while Florence often came up with things on the spot). They each were featured individually in numerous interviews, magazine spreads, etc. Their roles were drastically different from other groups like the Vandellas in which most of America couldn't tell you the other two girls' names.

[RossHolloway]

Florence's [[and Mary's) roles were different because the group started out [[with Florence and Mary being co-founders) as a group in which there was no defined lead singer. Whereas the Marvelettes, Miracles and Vandellas came to Motown with already established lead singers, the Supremes came with no assigned lead singer, and with all girls [[with the exception of maybe Diana) having the notion of an equal role within the group.

Plus, among fans, the Supremes were unique in that EACH girl had a distinct personality. The public knew their names, knew their nicknames [[the quiet one, the sexy one, etc.). On top of the music, they had a real comedic element, provided predominantly by Florence [[Diana's stage patter had to be scripted more times than not, while Florence often came up with things on the spot). They each were featured individually in numerous interviews, magazine spreads, etc. Their roles were drastically different from other groups like the Vandellas in which most of America couldn't tell you the other two girls' names.

I think all those traits could be found in all the other groups as well. I don't think stage patter was something that was unique to just the Supremes. The Marvelettes also had two lead singers, Gladys and Wanda, and after 1964 Gladys really took a backseat to Wanda on singing lead on all their singles and a lot of their material. The Temptations had 3 distinct lead singers: David, Eddie and Paul, but that didn't stop them from firing David or Paul [[which never gets talked about). And weren't they all basically kicked out of their respective groups for similar reasons? Yet I hardly hear any sympathy for those guys. With the exception of the Four Tops didn't just about all the major groups go thru some sort of member change during the height of their popularity in the 1960's?

[Hulswood]

Don't forget what calling "fat" does to a woman and how she might respond.
Check http://panachereport.com/channels/old_school_update/FloBerry.htm
Flo was not fat, Diana was to skinny. And Berry was more into skinny I guess.
In fact, Flo had way much more class than Diana.

[Jimi LaLumia]

the Ross haters will never budge from their jealousy and misery, so let them wallow in it, that's their 'thing'...
it doesn't change anything, and "***** DIANA ROSS"***** is celebrated on Broadway in 2013, so break out the kleenex!

[Kamasu_Jr]

Well the title of this thread, quoting some sad sack lyrics from Ask Any Girl, certainly sets the tone of casting Flo as a victim. There are some Florence Ballard fans on the net who revel and get off on viewing her as a victim.

So true. They are like those nuts in the film, The World According to Garp, who cut their tongues off because they sympathised with Jenny Fields, some character who had mutilated herself. Some people just love victims. However, Flo Ballard was not the patron saint of all victims and losers.

[skooldem1]

A lot of time and attention is devoted to Flo being called fat and how that may have effected her. It made me realize that absolutely no attention is paid to how Diana Ross may have been effected being called skinny, bean pole, itty bitty titty committee, being told she had a "little boy" body. How does that affect a woman? Why do people only focus on Flo's feelings?

[marv2]

A lot of time and attention is devoted to Flo being called fat and how that may have effected her. It made me realize that absolutely no attention is paid to how Diana Ross may have been effected being called skinny, bean pole, itty bitty titty committee, being told she had a "little boy" body. How does that affect a woman? Why do people only focus on Flo's feelings?

I am amazed at how you great big Diana Ross fans fail to acknowledge or even recognized that she was one of the biggest bullies at Motown. She would hide behind Berry Gordy whenever anyone would come for her.......

[marv2]

Don't forget what calling "fat" does to a woman and how she might respond.
Check http://panachereport.com/channels/old_school_update/FloBerry.htm
Flo was not fat, Diana was to skinny. And Berry was more into skinny I guess.
In fact, Flo had way much more class than Diana.

Florence was infinitely more classy than Diana.

[marv2]

I remember awhile ago there was a discussion about doing an Unsung on Jean Terrell or Mary Wilson. Paul Williams I would say is a great Unsung story that should be told imo. I think Mary would be a good for the seris that TVONE produce show called "Life After". It tells the story of stars and what happened after their star powered run in the limelight.

Yeah? Well good luck in trying to get to Mary to agree that bull@$t! That is not going to happen! LOL!!!

[rod_rick]

Yeah? Well good luck in trying to get to Mary to agree that bull@$t! That is not going to happen! LOL!!!

Marv
Have you ever checked out an episode of Life After on TVONE?

[marv2]

Marv
Have you ever checked out an episode of Life After on TVONE?

No! But from your description of the program, she is not going to want to be involved.

[midnightman]

A lot of time and attention is devoted to Flo being called fat and how that may have effected her. It made me realize that absolutely no attention is paid to how Diana Ross may have been effected being called skinny, bean pole, itty bitty titty committee, being told she had a "little boy" body. How does that affect a woman? Why do people only focus on Flo's feelings?

I think all three girls had self-esteem issues. Mary probably had more backbone though considering her background was way different. Flo had to deal with being in a large family, probably was called names for being too light-skinned and, then later, for being heavier. Diana being "too dark, too ugly, too skinny". Mary probably handled whatever insult came her way better than Flo and Diana. I think of the three, Flo and Diana had some major issues. Mary's didn't come until much, much later, usually with men. Regardless, all three dealt with their pain either through drugs [[Diana dabbled in cocaine for a minute allegedly before she stopped; Mary was on it for a while) or alcohol [[Flo was known for drinking before shows and Diana's alcohol problems led her in jail). All three had issues. Mary and Diana survived them. Had that blood clot not happened, Flo would probably still be here with us.

[midnightman]

I remember awhile ago there was a discussion about doing an Unsung on Jean Terrell or Mary Wilson. Paul Williams I would say is a great Unsung story that should be told imo. I think Mary would be a good for the seris that TVONE produce show called "Life After". It tells the story of stars and what happened after their star powered run in the limelight.

Mary's story is too complex for that. She should do a documentary or something. Paul Williams would be a good "Unsung" story. They're about to air Eddie's next year.

[midnightman]

How was Florence's role in the Supreme's any different that the members in the Marvelettes, the Vandellas, the Velvelettes, the Miracles, the Four Tops, the Contours, the Allstars, or the Miracles?

Right. She was just a member. Milton Jenkins was the real founder of the Supremes. No one knew how good the Supremes were gonna be when they started off as the Primettes. But people who continue to change history are trying to make that story bigger than what it is.

[midnightman]

I think all those traits could be found in all the other groups as well. I don't think stage patter was something that was unique to just the Supremes. The Marvelettes also had two lead singers, Gladys and Wanda, and after 1964 Gladys really took a backseat to Wanda on singing lead on all their singles and a lot of their material. The Temptations had 3 distinct lead singers: David, Eddie and Paul, but that didn't stop them from firing David or Paul [[which never gets talked about). And weren't they all basically kicked out of their respective groups for similar reasons? Yet I hardly hear any sympathy for those guys. With the exception of the Four Tops didn't just about all the major groups go thru some sort of member change during the height of their popularity in the 1960's?

Let's not forget, the Marvelettes could whup the Supremes' petite butts onstage with their showmanship. Look at the Apollo clip from '63: the Supremes were too plain and too cute to take the stage over. The Marvelettes on the other hand shook their tail feathers like the Ikettes; Gladys was cool and Wanda was a mover. Compare that to three teenage girls that seemed younger than the Marvelettes. The Supremes couldn't even dance that well so no one really took them seriously at the time [[though they were determined) and in the early Motown years, Florence and Mary weren't singing lead onstage, only Diana. The Marvelettes and The Temptations each had more than two lead singers. Only thing why people think the Supremes were different was because of Berry Gordy, which is hogwash...

[franjoy56]

That is not entirely true, people often wondered how Diana felt when her hits stoped coming in the 80's and how she felt when Lady Sings the Blues did not get her the oscar, when she should have, and how she felt of always having the burden on her when the Supremes were hitting with hit after hit in the 60's, and why her feelings didn't transpire to her partners, especially about giving some of the glory to Mary and Flo on album cuts and some live talk in live shows like the Copa, and other venues they played,. We focus on the terrible things Flo went through because they are tragic Miss Ballard went through hell for speaking up for the group that she named. And it took a lady like Jennifer Hudson to say when she won her Emmy. This award is for Florence Ballard a lady who never got her chance, you will never be forgotten.

[franjoy56]

Reply to Skoodeems thread on why people only focus on Flo's feelings:

That is not entirely true, people often wondered how Diana felt when her hits stoped coming in the 80's and how she felt when Lady Sings the Blues did not get her the oscar, when she should have, and how she felt of always having the burden on her when the Supremes were hitting with hit after hit in the 60's, and why her feelings didn't transpire to her partners, especially about giving some of the glory to Mary and Flo on album cuts and some live talk in live shows like the Copa, and other venues they played,. We focus on the terrible things Flo went through because they are tragic Miss Ballard went through hell for speaking up for the group that she named. And it took a lady like Jennifer Hudson to say when she won her Emmy. This award is for Florence Ballard a lady who never got her chance, you will never be forgotten.

[Roberta75]

That is not entirely true, people often wondered how Diana felt when her hits stoped coming in the 80's and how she felt when Lady Sings the Blues did not get her the oscar, when she should have, and how she felt of always having the burden on her when the Supremes were hitting with hit after hit in the 60's, and why her feelings didn't transpire to her partners, especially about giving some of the glory to Mary and Flo on album cuts and some live talk in live shows like the Copa, and other venues they played,. We focus on the terrible things Flo went through because they are tragic Miss Ballard went through hell for speaking up for the group that she named. And it took a lady like Jennifer Hudson to say when she won her Emmy. This award is for Florence Ballard a lady who never got her chance, you will never be forgotten.

First up I must correct you Frances, Jennifer Hudson mentioned Flo at the Golden Globes and not at the Emmys. Diane Ross may have been upset when she didn't win he Oscar and the hits stopped coming but Diane Ross and Mary Wilson are survivors. Florence's hell that you speak of was partly the tragic rape, partly her felling unappreciated in the Supremes and partly of her own making. If Flo had a iltlle more drive like Diane and could play the game a bit more like Mary and things might have been different.

I know your heart still breaks for Flo and I hope and pray you find closure soon. If it helps, think of dear Florence at peace in Heaven with her maker. That should help ease your pain and lighten your heart.

God bless you Frances.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[midnightman]

Flo just wanted to sing. She was tired of the fame. I'm sure a part of her DID want to leave the group. To put it short, the rape affected things for Flo that she could never get back. But what rape did to destroy Florence, Tammi Terrell seemed to move on [[seemed to) from it and persevered until that brain tumor halted it permanently. :[[ Florence was finally seeking help for her depression and coming back to music when she died of the blood clot. Diana survived all those Grammy nods and Oscar nod, I'm sure she's not depressed over that stuff just like Mary stopped being depressed over how the Supremes fell apart.

[midnightman]

First up I must correct you Frances, Jennifer Hudson mentioned Flo at the Golden Globes and not at the Emmys. Diane Ross may have been upset when she didn't win he Oscar and the hits stopped coming but Diane Ross and Mary Wilson are survivors. Florence's hell that you speak of was partly the tragic rape, partly her felling unappreciated in the Supremes and partly of her own making. If Flo had a iltlle more drive like Diane and could play the game a bit more like Mary and things might have been different.

I know your heart still breaks for Flo and I hope and pray you find closure soon. If it helps, think of dear Florence at peace in Heaven with her maker. That should help ease your pain and lighten your heart.

God bless you Frances.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

Exactly. I'm one of those who think Florence made her peace with God before she died. And that leaves me comforted that Florence is in a better place and is doing fine wherever she is as a spirit or whatever.

[rod_rick]

No! But from your description of the program, she is not going to want to be involved.
I didn't think so. I may not have given you a perfect discription of the program but imo this would be a perfect vehicle for Mary. This program basically chronicles celebrity career from the past to the present. This current season featured Marla Gibbs, Bernadette Stanis from Good Time, Ernest Thomas from What's Happening, singer Karyn White [[who just recently released new product) and Judge Mabelean Empharim fomerly of Divorce Court. The past episode featured, Malcolm Jamal Warner, Bel,Biv,Devoe,Kidd & Play and others.

[Shaqueetha_Jackson]

Don't forget what calling "fat" does to a woman and how she might respond.
Check http://panachereport.com/channels/old_school_update/FloBerry.htm
Flo was not fat, Diana was to skinny. And Berry was more into skinny I guess.
In fact, Flo had way much more class than Diana.



I dint want to read this subject cus i new it would upset me to much not only was florence Blondie Ballard a vistim she was murdered snd bug eyes and barry girdy are to blame they dint pull the triger but there deeds did.

[franjoy56]

Reply to Roberta.

First of all I am only commenting because people are stating howe unreliable Flo was and that was not true in the beginning, but as time went on she got disillusioned because she believed in spreading the fame around and not it being centered on Miss Ross if you will. I have found peace in what happened to her but legend is legend and it can never be erased. Whether it was a emmy or golden globe, it still speaks volumes of the appreciation of an artist who took on the role of Effie in her first acting role,dedicated it to Miss Ballard [[in whom the Effie character was loosely based on Flo). Believe me my pain has been eased years ago, and God has blessed me in ways you cannot imagine.

[franjoy56]

Reply to Roberta.

First of all I am only commenting because people are stating howe unreliable Flo was and that was not true in the beginning, but as time went on she got disillusioned because she believed in spreading the fame around and not it being centered on Miss Ross if you will. I have found peace in what happened to her but legend is legend and it can never be erased. Whether it was a emmy or golden globe, it still speaks volumes of the appreciation of an artist who took on the role of Effie in her first acting role,dedicated it to Miss Ballard [[in whom the Effie character was loosely based on Flo). Believe me my pain has been eased years ago, and God has blessed me in ways you cannot imagine.

and I am finding peace in listening to the Roostertail disc 2 in which Flo Ballard is truly represented in beautiful singing "People" and the Symphony medley to name a few.

[Penny]

Franjoy, I am glad you have found peace. That CD arrived in the mail just the other day. I haven't been able to stop listening to it. All three Supremes sound great and it was such a wonderful time for them. You can't help wonder what it would have been like had just a few things been just a little different. But that is the past. At least we have the CD.

Penny:)

[Roberta75]

and I am finding peace in listening to the Roostertail disc 2 in which Flo Ballard is truly represented in beautiful singing "People" and the Symphony medley to name a few.

Bless you dear Frances.

Roberta

[Hulswood]

the Ross haters will never budge from their jealousy and misery, so let them wallow in it, that's their 'thing'...
it doesn't change anything, and "***** DIANA ROSS"***** is celebrated on Broadway in 2013, so break out the kleenex!

Let me state for the record that I'm NOT a Ross-hater. Actually, I like most of her songs [[with the Supremes and solo), her voice is high, but I think Flo had more power/volume. Berry didn't use that enough. As we all know he pushed Diana forward for several reasons [[relationship + singing-talents), and Flo didn't make that any easier by taking no shit from him + drinking etc.etc.

[Jimi LaLumia]

'taking no shit from him' implies that they were equals; they weren't..
Berry was the boss, Florence a Motown employee..
taking no shit from the boss = You're Fired!

[midnightman]

^ Yeah and it wasn't just Florence that learned that. There's a reason why there's such a thing called record label bosses...

[midnightman]

And I still think calling Florence Ballard a victim is demeaning her. Take that with what you will but you're only hurting the Supremes' legacy by even insinuating that. Not only that but I don't think her family would agree with that assessment, much less Maxine Ballard and Florence's daughters.

[Hulswood]

'taking no shit from him' implies that they were equals; they weren't..
Berry was the boss, Florence a Motown employee..
taking no shit from the boss = You're Fired!

Berry was the boss: True
Flo was a Motown employee: True
"Taking no shit implies they were equals": I don't agree.
If didn't write "Taking no orders", then I would have agreed. In a Boss-Employee relationship the employee has to take orders, no problem with that. But an employee never has to take "shit", I mean all that stuff from Berry that had nothing to do with work [[she wasn't fat, in fact people adored her).
Of course, if the boss doesn't change that kind of attitude, the employee can do the following:
* start taking the shit,
* leave,
* Or continue arguing and get fired.
So I agree with your last comment: "taking no shit from the boss = getting fired". In fact she took her third option.

Jerry.

[antceleb12]

There's a difference between being disobedient and rebellious, which Flo could often be, and pointing out what's not right. Just because Berry was the boss, it doesn't give him the right to call his employees fat [[harassment). Also, sleeping with employees [[Diana) is extremely unethical. Berry was accused of numerous illegal practices, including payola. It's unethical practices like these that Florence had a real problem with, as she should have. I'm not saying that drinking and missing rehearsals was the right solution, but I am saying that Florence recognized that she was royally screwed in her situation - either keep quiet and feel miserable, or speak up and get fired. Show business is not a fair business, which is something none of those girls could have foreseen going into it.

[marv2]

There's a difference between being disobedient and rebellious, which Flo could often be, and pointing out what's not right. Just because Berry was the boss, it doesn't give him the right to call his employees fat [[harassment). Also, sleeping with employees [[Diana) is extremely unethical. Berry was accused of numerous illegal practices, including payola. It's unethical practices like these that Florence had a real problem with, as she should have. I'm not saying that drinking and missing rehearsals was the right solution, but I am saying that Florence recognized that she was royally screwed in her situation - either keep quiet and feel miserable, or speak up and get fired. Show business is not a fair business, which is something none of those girls could have foreseen going into it.

Florence got screwed, was mentally and emotionally abused at Motown and now some people believe that she should have just took it and kept quiet. She did try to keep quiet after she was fired from the Supremes ,but after the realization hit her that they were going to allow her to sink into poverty and complete despare ,she spoke up [[via her 1971 lawsuit) but by then it was already too late!

[Hulswood]

There's a difference between being disobedient and rebellious, which Flo could often be, and pointing out what's not right. Just because Berry was the boss, it doesn't give him the right to call his employees fat [[harassment). Also, sleeping with employees [[Diana) is extremely unethical. Berry was accused of numerous illegal practices, including payola. It's unethical practices like these that Florence had a real problem with, as she should have. I'm not saying that drinking and missing rehearsals was the right solution, but I am saying that Florence recognized that she was royally screwed in her situation - either keep quiet and feel miserable, or speak up and get fired. Show business is not a fair business, which is something none of those girls could have foreseen going into it.

Exactly.....very well spoken Antceleb....

And I wonder why the other girls never spoke up for her, as they were a successful team of 3, not 3 separate persons. Mary and Diana surely saw what happened.
Diana could have used her relationship with Berry to stop him picking on Flo. I mean in the beginning, when things still could be reversed.
IMO Diana didn't care because she was scheduled to go solo anyway. "Before I go solo, lets change Flo into Cindy to fill the temporary gap". And maybe that's why Mary didn't step in either, cause she couldn't team-up with Diana to stop Berry. The original Supremes went in a dead-end street.

[arrr&bee]

no they're not. The marvelettes were because they got dissed openly. Flo got dissed behind her back, which is just as bad. I still question what went on with paul because to this day i think someone popped him and they made it look like he killed himself. No, not buying it...nobody[popped]paul,his problems stemmed from him not getting leads[as otis said,nobody was writing for paul]some think that his affair with[winnie brown]contributed to his downfall,maybe but rather then cause problems within the group paul drank which for him was a big mistake he could'nt handle it and his health suffered for it.

[R. Mark Desjardins]

When I think of The Supremes, I think of three beautiful young women who made a very big impression on me as a teenager. When I listen to their harmonies on "The Supremes Sing Country, Western & Pop," I feel shivers run through me. Those sessions were recorded before mass fame ensued for them, but to my ears that under appreciated recording most closely captures the trio in their vocal prime and essence. I may be a minority in this belief, but that is their legacy, three, as one!

[marv2]

Exactly.....very well spoken Antceleb....

And I wonder why the other girls never spoke up for her, as they were a successful team of 3, not 3 separate persons. Mary and Diana surely saw what happened.
Diana could have used her relationship with Berry to stop him picking on Flo. I mean in the beginning, when things still could be reversed.
IMO Diana didn't care because she was scheduled to go solo anyway. "Before I go solo, lets change Flo into Cindy to fill the temporary gap". And maybe that's why Mary didn't step in either, cause she couldn't team-up with Diana to stop Berry. The original Supremes went in a dead-end street.

They didn't speak up for Florence because Diana Ross broke the unity. She was on Berry Gordy's side by then completely. She was looking out for herself and Mary was afraid that she too would be kicked out. Diane could have used her relationship with Mr. Gordy to help things with Flo, but she was not supportive of Florence. You are right, she just didn't care and wanted Florence out of the group as much as Gordy did.

[marv2]

When I think of The Supremes, I think of three beautiful young women who made a very big impression on me as a teenager. When I listen to their harmonies on "The Supremes Sing Country, Western & Pop," I feel shivers run through me. Those sessions were recorded before mass fame ensued for them, but to my ears that under appreciated recording most closely captures the trio in their vocal prime and essence. I may be a minority in this belief, but that is their legacy, three, as one!

Mark, I agree. That was the Supremes at their vocal best. They didn't need Andantes or anyone else on those recordings. To me, the Supremes were far superior vocally than the Andantes and others........

[Kamasu_Jr]

My eyes are raised to the sky.

[marv2]

Reply to Roberta.

First of all I am only commenting because people are stating howe unreliable Flo was and that was not true in the beginning, but as time went on she got disillusioned because she believed in spreading the fame around and not it being centered on Miss Ross if you will. I have found peace in what happened to her but legend is legend and it can never be erased. Whether it was a emmy or golden globe, it still speaks volumes of the appreciation of an artist who took on the role of Effie in her first acting role,dedicated it to Miss Ballard [[in whom the Effie character was loosely based on Flo). Believe me my pain has been eased years ago, and God has blessed me in ways you cannot imagine.

That's true Fran.

[midnightman]

My eyes are raised to the sky.

LOL I'm sure all of our eyes are at this point. The Supremes are a triumph, not a tragedy. ;)

[Roberta75]

LOL I'm sure all of our eyes are at this point. The Supremes are a triumph, not a tragedy. ;)

Most of us know the Supremes will always be a triumph and most of us love all of the former Supremes. There are but a few will that always see Diane Ross as a wicked villain. Mary Wilson as a saint, Florence Ballard as a tragic victim and there's nothing we can do to change theire minds. Best thing is to stick them on ignore and pray for them.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

[midnightman]

Most of us know the Supremes will always be a triumph and most of us love all of the former Supremes. There are but a few will that always see Diane Ross as a wicked villain. Mary Wilson as a saint, Florence Ballard as a tragic victim and there's nothing we can do to change theire minds. Best thing is to stick them on ignore and pray for them.

Yours, with every good wish.

Roberta

True, true... keep it moving, I always say lol