An observation

[carole cucumber]

It appears that something that many have been hoping and praying for is happening.
With the announcement of several re-issues coming in this 4th quarter, it seems that the higher-ups/executives/suits [[those with corporate positions above Harry, Andy, George, Kevin) are finally realizing that having several catalog/expanded titles selling moderately well to a tried and true supportive fan base is just as important and obviously monetarily substantial enough as waiting for the next mega star to bring home the bacon.
When Hip-O-Select was first created, titles came quite quickly. Then things slowed down, and even a lull was experienced momentarily. It seemed that the brakes had been put on the creative re-issue team.
Although never officially explained, it was hinted at that re-issue teams were still in our corner, but that their hands were tied by someone higher up the next level.
Perhaps fans contacting Universal had a significant impact. Certainly the moderate success of overseas re-issues [[Cellarful of Motown, Ace/Kent, Soul Music Records, Japanese Mini Lp Sleeves) play a part.
Whatever the reasons, I'm just glad that the re-issues keep on comin' and the vault finds keep getting better and better.

[Roger Polhill]

I couldn`t agree more with you Carole.There is so much treasure in the Motown vaults and so many of us addicts are getting on in years, which could mean striking when the iron is hot.I`m really fizzing at the thought of these promised editions. A big thank you to all those involved.

[Kamasu_Jr]

I agree somewhat. Universal is releasing Motown re-isues. But I have not seen new releases on other acts who did not record in Detroit. There has not been a new re-issue on acts like the Fifth Dimension or the Impressions in years. Was Motown the only company that recorded its artists excessively?

[snakepit]

With regard to Motown's vaults, it's questionable as to what's left to issue. Major artists like The Temptations, DRATS, Four Tops , Marvin Gaye, Marvelettes [[60's output) seems to be drying up. But there are some glaring omissions i.e 60's sets of Lost and Found on Smokey & Miracles, Stevie Wonder, and then onto artists such as Gladys Knight, Edwin Starr, Jimmy Ruffin,Jr. Walker, Originals and finally the acts like Linda Griner, Carolyn Crawford, who might be a project of 'special' interest.
There is a loyal fan base.....is it enough to push these things through.?

[jobeterob]

What has come thus far has been awesome; who would have expected all there was. In the last few months, it seems to have quietened a bit but there is still at least Baby It's Me to come and that was an excellent album.

I suspect the loyal fan base for some of those artists Snakepit mentioned is a smaller fan base and so it is tougher to justify a release on them.

Good question about is the loyal fan base enough. I think it's touch and go; that fan base is old; the young crowd doesnt pay for music. I don't think there's lots of time left.

[carole cucumber]

There is a loyal fan base.....is it enough to push these things through.?

[QUOTE=jobeterob;122658
Good question about is the loyal fan base enough. I think it's touch and go; that fan base is old; the young crowd doesnt pay for music. I don't think there's lots of time left.

I often wonder why when there is the possibility of good news, people [[and I have nothing against either poster quoted- they merely represent a trend that I've observed often) will inevitably raise arguments as to why there should not be good news. In effect, it at least, puts a damper upon the good news, or at worst, thwarts the good news.
If, for example, fans say online that we would like and would support more quality re-issues and then other fans jump in and suggest well maybe the company shouldn't even attempt to re-issue something because there aren't enough people who are going to buy the release, aren't we planting the seed in the minds of 'the suits' that they shouldn't even bother. Might we, possibly, over the course of time, inadvertantly be putting greater stress upon the wonderful teams that bring us these marvelous re-issues when we take it upon ourselves to act as quasi-marketing- analysts. As far as I know, none of us has a functioning crystal ball.

I remember when "This Is the Story" was first announced. Several posters quickly questioned the wisdom of such a move. After all, it was assumed that most people had an interest in Diana Ross & the Supremes. But the Supremes without Diana... it would never fly. Dismal sales would prove that it was a BIG mistake. Hip--O-Select would be lucky to even recoup its costs.
And yet, the set sold out quite quickly! If I remember correctly, Harry Weinger believed in this release-and Hip-O-Select took the risk.
If Hip-O-Select, etc. want to take the risk, I say let them. Don't discourage them. In all probability, they'll win some and lose some. But with our support, there should be more notches in the win than the lose column.
And we'll benefit by hearing the music we enjoy, whether for the 50th time or in the case of previously-unreleased tracks, the 1st time.

[ralpht]

I find this thread interesting. Nice job, guys. But you all have to realize that whatever is still in the can has to be getting seriously thin.

[carole cucumber]

Ralph,
I mean no disrespect, but I prefer the term 'thinner'. I'm not sure how many selections are on those 30,000 reels in the Motown vaults- if I'm rembering the correct number that was once announced.
From the several times that Harry Weinger, Andy Skurow, or George Solomon have been interviewed on-line or in print, a constant refrain has been emerging. They are still mining the vaults and striking gold. There is expressed an amazement and excitement about the number of unknown discoveries that they are making- songs stuck at the end of a reels that were never catalogued; tracks that are incorrectly identified on tape library cards/ tape boxes as a 2nd version of a known track but prove to be an entirely unknown track; stereo album masters where there were thought to be none; live recordings and performances that were thought to be just another run-through too similar to a released live show that instead reveal maturation and growth within the artist/group and his/her/their abilities.
I'm glad in the sense that, although it has been said that in the early days, Berry Gordy saved money by re-using tape to record over performances for the best performance from his artists, at heart he actually was a pack rat.

[Kamasu_Jr]

I'm not knocking Hip- O /Motown Universal. It continues to release product aimed at older music fans while hoping to attract new ones. It's a bold move. But I agree with Ralph, whatever is left in the vaults of other record companies has gotten pretty thin-- IF anything is left at all. Most of the quality reissues are coming out of Europe. I was the one who pointed this out on the forum a few years back. I asked what was happening to American reissues?
And Jobeterob is right when he says the audience or fanbase for these re-issues is getting older, dying up or simply interested in other things. In Memphis, you don't even hear much music from the 1960s on the radio these days. That music is 50 and 40 years old. And that's not the audience advertisers or radio programmers are trying to reach.

[soulster]

Coming in from a slightly different angle is that as time passes, memories and interest fades, how to package and market certain late 70s/80s artists and/or their albums that weren't exactly in the top tier. There are still three Rick James albums that could stand to be remastered and reissued. There's Commodores, Switch, one-offs from Jerry Butler, Rockwell, and certain others.

[snakepit]

Carole Cucumber,

I don't know how long you have been a member of SDF but people here will testify that NOBODY is a bigger supporter of UMG/Hipp-o than me.
I have been a champion of their re-issue policies. I am merely pointing out that, as Ralph says, the vault material MUST be getting thin. I do not say that UMG shouldn't continue.....in fact 100% the opposite....I want it all..........but I'm just making a point for discussion.

[nathanj06]

Good points made by all. I never expected to see these Supremes reissues happen but they finally did. Everything so far has been amazing and beautifully done. Millions of people download songs everyday from any genre so the interest remains. I can't count the times I have read online or have heard in person of the people who discover not only Motown but all different music by younger people. The 60s music still gets played here and this station plays things I haven't heard on radio in decades. An example for me is I did'nt particularly get into The Commodores in the 70s with a few exceptions. For some reason I was thinking about Lionel Richie's music and thought, wow there are some amazing songs here. I revisited them and downloaded 20 plus songs after all these years. It took me to the 80s to actually enjoy The Beach Boys. I think these recordings being reissued is a great move and the market, though not as large as it was, is still there. It is a pleasure to own these sets from Motown and look forward to more. As someone mentioned, This Is The Story did sell out as well as the Where Did Our Love Go set and the David Ruffin cd. That speaks for itself.

[westgrandboulevard]

In addition to new stereo mixes where previously none seemed available [[eg The Motown Box) - and also instrumental backing tracks [[eg Motown Karaoke series)- the remixing and reassembling of classic tracks, so brilliantly presented by midnight johnny, offer a wonderful new perspective to our favourite music, while remaining faithful to the original productions.

The market may indeed be contracting but, with innovative presentation and marketing, I believe that there is a lot of life left in the music of Motown, both for those tracks previously released, and for those still in the vaults.

[bradsupremes]

From the several times that Harry Weinger, Andy Skurow, or George Solomon have been interviewed on-line or in print, a constant refrain has been emerging. They are still mining the vaults and striking gold. There is expressed an amazement and excitement about the number of unknown discoveries that they are making- songs stuck at the end of a reels that were never catalogued; tracks that are incorrectly identified on tape library cards/ tape boxes as a 2nd version of a known track but prove to be an entirely unknown track; stereo album masters where there were thought to be none; live recordings and performances that were thought to be just another run-through too similar to a released live show that instead reveal maturation and growth within the artist/group and his/her/their abilities.

Absolutely Carole! If I remember correctly when it was Motown 50 and the Detroit Free Press were doing those 2-3 minute videos on the different artists and stories of Motown, Harry Weinger was looking at a multi-track tape and pointed out that there was a version of "Standing In The Shadows Of Love" by the Four Tops that no one has heard. A lot of material has been released, but there are still more things that have yet to see the light of day. Someone would have to go through each and every tape and listen to everything on them to determine what hasn't been released and I'm sure that would a very long time. Let's not forget all of the instrumental tracks that never received vocals!

[ralpht]

Carole and all,
What you must realize is that not ALL of whatever is left in the vaults is necessarily good. Not every recording session produced a winner. just the opposite was the norm mostly.
I suppose if I have any kind of a beef with all of this it is, why aren't you guys supporting the music being made TODAY by members of this forum, including myself? We know how to do it and, maybe all of it may not be what you're looking for, a goodly amount is.
I'm about to review a new CD by Scherrie Payne. I'm sure I'm going to be blown away by some of what I am going to hear in that CD.

Look, Carlole, when I said the vaults are getting thin, I meant what I said. How many re-packaged albums are you willing to sit through?

Soulful Detroit is blessed to have in it's membership a host of good producers and writers that keep trying to bring some fresh air to the mix. Give them a shot.

[Motown4Ever518]

Carole and all,
What you must realize is that not ALL of whatever is left in the vaults is necessarily good. Not every recording session produced a winner. just the opposite was the norm mostly.
I suppose if I have any kind of a beef with all of this it is, why aren't you guys supporting the music being made TODAY by members of this forum, including myself? We know how to do it and, maybe all of it may not be what you're looking for, a goodly amount is.
I'm about to review a new CD by Scherrie Payne. I'm sure I'm going to be blown away by some of what I am going to hear in that CD.

Look, Carlole, when I said the vaults are getting thin, I meant what I said. How many re-packaged albums are you willing to sit through?

Soulful Detroit is blessed to have in it's membership a host of good producers and writers that keep trying to bring some fresh air to the mix. Give them a shot.

Ralph T, I feel as though I know you, as I recently purchased both of your two books.

I am in total agreement with you. For example, I just purchased the Marv Johnson collection from Kent with the unissued sides. The truth of the matter is if you took out the tracks while unreleased at the time of recording and released on other compilations the Marv Johnson set was less fat as it could have been. This is not too diminish Mr. Johnson in any way, but the first thing I did was skip through all the tracks looking for the classic 4 on the floor to a bar that I love, and then listened to the entire collection, it was nice, I am glad I own it, but again IMO the best unreleased tracks were released already. I love good music and today purchased a Philly Soul based collection of hits and unreleased material, while not having my mouth water as the output from West Grand Blvd., I am looking forward to receiving that set. What I am trying to say is that the vaults in general are getting thinner. Music companies, Universal, Hipo, Kent, et,al,your audience for this material is getting thinner as well. The challenge will be that there will be all this music that is being sat on, and no one to buy it when it is finally released. On the other hand as you stated, there is music out there produced by members of this forum that should be kept in mind for future purchases.

[ralpht]

Motown,
First of all, thank you for reading my books. Years ago, I had a vision for Soulful Detroit. That this place would be a venue for new talent brought forth by all of us that were there in the old days. We have some monster talent running around here. Guys like Clay McMurray, George McGregor, Dennis Coffey and Mike Theodore, Mashall Crenshaw, Russell Thompkins...I guess I could go on, but my point is a lot of time and money is being spent to produce music as close to the old school way as possible. After all, we all grew up during the same era and learned to write and produce the music we love.

Unfortunately I haven't realized that vision just yet, but I don't intend to quit trying anytime soon.

[carole cucumber]

Carole and all,
What you must realize is that not ALL of whatever is left in the vaults is necessarily good. Not every recording session produced a winner. just the opposite was the norm mostly.'

'Good' is a very subjective term. One may deem something as good for any number of reasons, while another person views it as bad for other or even sometimes the exact same reasons. Andy Skurow has admitted in print that not every vaulted track is a gem. There are unusable tracks as well as tracks that he and/or Harry and/or George consider in their estimation as just plain 'bad' .


[QUOTE=ralpht;122773]
I suppose if I have any kind of a beef with all of this it is, why aren't you guys supporting the music being made TODAY by members of this forum, including myself? We know how to do it and, maybe all of it may not be what you're looking for, a goodly amount is.
I'm about to review a new CD by Scherrie Payne. I'm sure I'm going to be blown away by some of what I am going to hear in that CD.

You MUST certainly know that many posters on this forum do go out of their way to support current projects by artists and musicians who post here as well as those they loved back in the day- both by attending performances and buying current cd's & dvd's.
Several have viewed Scherrie Payne's remake of 'Let Yourself Go' on YouTube and have bought a download of that recording.


[QUOTE=ralpht;122773]
Look, Carlole, when I said the vaults are getting thin, I meant what I said. How many re-packaged albums are you willing to sit through?

I would consider it rude to take it upon myself to ask you how many times you sit through a meal of your favorite food, or sit and drink the same beverage, or sit and watch the same television program, or sit/stand and root for the same team. If I or others welcome improved and expanded versions of a musical work that we have previously purchased, that is our business, just as the foods, drinks, television programs, sports that we enjoy are no -one else's business but our own!


[QUOTE=ralpht;122773]
Soulful Detroit is blessed to have in it's membership a host of good producers and writers that keep trying to bring some fresh air to the mix. Give them a shot.

Again, I'm not sure why you're choosing to assume that the members of this forum who are not writers/producers are not supporting contemporary works. Perhaps as you admitted earlier, some of it may not have been what some posters here were looking for.
But,please don't grow impatient, Ralph. As you view it, the vaults are almost emptied of anything 'good'. At that point, we can likely expect posters here to gravitate more to modern releases that capture the magic of the Motown Sound [[which is in actuality 'the
Sound of Older America/Europe/Asia/etc.')

[carole cucumber]

Ralph,
I do recognize that we can agree to disagree. Each of us certainly has his/her own opinion which sometimes gels and sometimes clashes with others. Diversity certainly makes the world a much more interesting place in which to live.

Personally, because of limited resources, I do not have the opportunity to travel to see forum posters who perform publically nor to afford the price asked for tickets. Nor do I regret not being able to do so. But I do enjoy hearing the reviews of those who have such rich opportunities and viewing the snippets of performances placed here or on YouTube.

If it's any consolation, I have read your book and have noted your brother Russ' involvement in mixing 3 tracks from the original multi-tracks for the last Jackson 5 vault release. Perhaps his name will appear on the credits for 'Come And Get It: Rare Pearls'. as well.

[Roger Polhill]

Go Carole!

[soulster]

Ralph, the key for me it to hear the stuff first. With money so tight these days, I can't afford to buy blind like I could back in the 90s.

[ralpht]

Carole,
Yes, I agree that "good" can mean different things to different people, but in this case, good means "will it sell", and I must revert to my statement that the vaults are thinning. A couple of years back, Harry Weinger asked me if Russ and I would be interested in going to New York to comb through the archives to see what we could come up with. For some reason we weren't able to work this out. More than likely it was decided that this could be a waste of time.

Believe me Carole, I appreciate your enthusiasm and loyalty to what once was, but what was once there, is no longer. I don't think your food analogy holds water. I can eat a steak done various ways, but a song remains a song. It can be re-mixed to death, as some forum members enjoy attempting and that makes good recreation but proves nothing.

You seem to forget that I was "there" for a good many years and sat in on many sessions, being actively involved, with Harry Balk, running the Creative Division, listening to what was coming out of the studios. Some of what we would listen to could be rather disappointing.
So, I stand by all I say in that department.

As far as forum support for new artists and material, I still maintain we producers get very little help. This isn't my gripe alone. This is something that has been discussed among the various artists and producers who participate on the forum. Some have left us, deciding they were wasting their time here.

I suppose if I wanted to continue my gripe, I could take a poke at the DJs that are here. Their shows are loaded with the old stuff, and that is cool, but how about doing shows featuring the new stuff once and a while. A lot of money is spent on production costs just to bring the music out to the public and to see it just sit and eventually disappear is a complete drag.

So Carole...yes we can agree to disagree. That is the concept of an open forum. However your naivete peeks through a bit when you enter grounds that you know nothing of. Enjoy all the old stuff because that is what brought us all together. But bear in mind there just ain't much left that you, or any of us, have never heard. That is a sad fact, but a fact just the same.

[ralpht]

Soulster,
I agree, money can be an issue and these economic times are hurting more than just the music business. However an occasional download of a song for 90 cents is do-able and would be a big boost to some struggling artist or producer and give them the where with all to continue making new music. Like I said, production don't come cheap. And you don't need to buy blind. Snippets are generally offered to give a taste of what is there.

[Kamasu_Jr]

I have to admit I'm somewhat leery of music projects by artists whose glory days have passed [[i.e. Aretha, The Tempts, the Three Degrees - even my beloved Carla Thomas etc.) I have numerous CDS just collecting dust by artists who have gotten older, their voices are gone or they are no longer signed to major labels and doing the independent thing with bare bones budgets. I'd rather hear the old stuff.

[ralpht]

I understand your point Kam. There are some artists that should just let the past lie rather than becoming an embarrassment to themselves. But they are not all like that. But what of new artists? I can use myself as an example of a producer trying to break new talent with awesome singer Teddie Morrow. I have a ton of material on Teddie that Russ and I think is very good. We both agree that it would have been so cool to have Teddie back when we were at Motown. Not only can the guy sing, he could also write with the best of them. But I'm having a heck of a time trying to bring him to the public. It gets discouraging at times but I keep trying for the time being.

[marv2]

Ralph! Now that is an excellent idea! The DJ's on the site could introduce the newer material to a wider audience on their various programs. That way it gets exposure and folks that prefer to buy after hearing it can be accommodated. How about that? Is there a way we can get some of these latest recordings like Teddie's over to them?

That is the way it was pretty much done in the "good ole days" and it would be beneficial to a lot of people here.

Marv

[marv2]

I personally do not need to hear 6 or 7 different alternate mixes of "Baby Love", Stop In the Name of Love", etc. Maybe because I was around when those songs were new and have been hearing them all of my life at points.

A former Motown recording artist told me some time ago that there is likely "no hit" material left in the vaults [[ meaning not very good stuff in this person's opinion....).

[ralpht]

Marv,
I have sent material to DJs that have requested it. You seem to get the idea of what I have in mind though. I figured you would get it old pal. Your above post tells the story.

[marv2]

Marv,
I have sent material to DJs that have requested it. You seem to get the idea of what I have in mind though. I figured you would get it old pal. Your above post tells the story.

I just think with all the competition out there for interterrestrial [[sp?) radio, that DJ's would jump at the chance to break a new song/recording. True, they have playlists that are much deeper than commercial radio where "it's the same old song", but as we know there are a LOT of classic [[over 40) artists that are putting out some good stuff these days.

[ralpht]

That was my hopes, Marv.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Gosh, I have no idea on how to break a new artist on radio these days. The game has changed so much. Most radio station playlists are pretty rigidly set. My station plays what listeners want to hear. Throw something new in there and some people complain. Let's not forget that radio is not the influentual power it once was or the only game in town any longer. I've noticed that many new acts have built strong followings on something like YouTube; Or they are really young or have come through the ranks of one of the reality show singing competitions. In other words, to get attention these days, a new act must already have a fanbase from constantly working local and regional clubs and selling discs out of the trunks of their cars.

[soulster]

Ralph and all,

I too often find that the new music, particularly made by veteran soul artists, are usually laid-back or mellow, as if their fire is gone, or they are too relaxed, or something. It's like they have nothing left to prove so there is no bite to their performance. Maybe I listen too much for the brasher sound they had back in the day. That could also very well be why so many of the forum members are "stuck in the past" so to speak. We are looking for that fire.

Nothing brought this to mind more than when Roberta Flack came out with her Beatles album earlier this year [[or was it last year?). I know mellow is her style, but...it's the Beatles! They were edgy

I do listen to new music, but, it is dance pop, stuff that is not liked around here, but it has the energy I look for. I guess I just have a youthful ear.

Earth, Wind & Fire are still making records, but I have not been impressed with their music for a couple of decades. They are too mellow, and the sound is too cold and, well...digital. Now, if they could pull out another "Shining Star" or "Getaway", something with that kind of force and energy, i'd listen to their new stuff. I know you're talking about the artists who contribute to this forum, but EWF is just an example of what I mean. Natalie Cole is another recent example. And, I do realize that time and health changes some people. But, when it comes to the energy in music I want to hear, I am very youthful. I'm not even 50 years old quite yet!

Now, for the engineers and producers: I just can't get into remixes of vintage material. That stuff should be left alone. The original mixes are just fine. I don't need a modern interpretation of it. The original mixes are etched in my mind and the way I want to always want to hear and remember them.

Motown? As I have stated earlier, there are things that have not been remastered digitally yet from artists that sold, and albums that were popular. Other small labels have stepped up and reissued some of them, but too often the mastering is questionable, the CDs are hard to find, and they go out of print too quickly.

[ralpht]

Soulster,
Try not to completely give up on some of the new music, although you make a valid point.

[carole cucumber]

[QUOTE=ralpht;122852]Carole,

Believe me Carole, I appreciate your enthusiasm and loyalty to what once was, but what was once there, is no longer. I don't think your food analogy holds water. I can eat a steak done various ways, but a song remains a song. It can be re-mixed to death, as some forum members enjoy attempting and that makes good recreation but proves nothing.

My analogy does hold water.. And songs that I've heard remixed on recent cd's do not come across as dead, but vibrant with new life breathed in to them, revealing a greater depth of experience and, as many have described, a feeling almost like being in the studio.
As you've pointed out you've been in the studio for a fair chunk of your life... so it's logical that you wouldn't comprehend the experience those of us who have not been in the
studio feel.
Remixes and alternate takes offer a chance to reveal another dimension of the creative process.
Hey, even Marv 2 , who on this thread states that he does not need to hear multiple mixes of Supremes hits [[listing 2 by name but expanding the thought by using the word 'etc') states in The" I Hear A Symphony Lp thread: "Now that is the mix I have been waiting for! I've heard the mix on the Motown Remixed CD from several years ago where they slowed it down and changed the instrumental track. I'd like to hear Mary and Flo's vocals pumped up along with the original backing track."

I believe that forum members who engage in remixing do contribute much more than proving nothing. They use their creative spirit and God-given talents to bring enjoyment to the listener through a variety of musical variations- much as you vary the way your steak is prepared.

[carole cucumber]

Carole,
So Carole...yes we can agree to disagree. That is the concept of an open forum. However your naivete peeks through a bit when you enter grounds that you know nothing of. Enjoy all the old stuff because that is what brought us all together. But bear in mind there just ain't much left that you, or any of us, have never heard. That is a sad fact, but a fact just the same.

Hmmh... 20 previously unheard Martha Reeves & the Vandellas' tracks; 20 or so previously unheard Mary Wells tracks + 20 stereo versions of previously released vault recordings ; an unheard stereo master of a classic Supremes' album [[ the officially released version of which was subpar sonically even in the mid 60's) coupled with revealing alternate tracks and other surprises; a post Motown Miracles album only released in Holland... maybe you've heard all of these Ralph. But I know that I and many other fans are looking forward to hearing them. All you need to do is to read the various threads concerning them to see that .

[ralpht]

The problem, Carole, is the tracks will, more than likely, not meet your expectations. But if you get the opportunity, go for it. The tracks will be historic, if nothing else.

[Roger Polhill]

I`d give my left testicle to see what is being held in the Motown vaults. Ralph there is still plenty of good stuff still awaiting airing.Artists such as the Contours, Spinners, Brenda Holloway, Hattie Littles, Chris Clark, Carolyn Crawford, Ivy Jo Hunter, Blinky, Stevie Wonder, Smokey & the Miracles, Marvin Gaye, Lewis Sisters, Bobby Breen, Choker Campbell, Fantastic Four, Monitors, Marv Johnson, Sammy Turner, Rita Wright,R.Dean Taylor, Billy Eckstine, Hit Pack, La Brenda Ben, Connie Haines, Debbie Dean, J.J.Barnes, Frank Wilson, Sammy Ward, Liz Lands, Kim Weston, Underdogs, Myna Birds,Little Lisa and Edwin Starr to name a few. Also there would have to be many, many demos by little known artists. "Cellarful Vol 4" was IMO the best so far.
I don`t care about modern music, in fact I only listen to pre 1972 Motown of which I have most releases. I never tire of listening to James Jamerson`s bass lines.
Most companies would be pleased that there is a ready market for all their back catalogue because of the low costs involved in production - no origination costs only liner notes , recording annotations , re mastering and cover graphics. Gosh if they are expensive - I`ll do them free of charge! Not the re- mastering that is.

[marv2]

[QUOTE=ralpht;122852]Carole,

Believe me Carole, I appreciate your enthusiasm and loyalty to what once was, but what was once there, is no longer. I don't think your food analogy holds water. I can eat a steak done various ways, but a song remains a song. It can be re-mixed to death, as some forum members enjoy attempting and that makes good recreation but proves nothing.

My analogy does hold water.. And songs that I've heard remixed on recent cd's do not come across as dead, but vibrant with new life breathed in to them, revealing a greater depth of experience and, as many have described, a feeling almost like being in the studio.
As you've pointed out you've been in the studio for a fair chunk of your life... so it's logical that you wouldn't comprehend the experience those of us who have not been in the
studio feel.
Remixes and alternate takes offer a chance to reveal another dimension of the creative process.
Hey, even Marv 2 , who on this thread states that he does not need to hear multiple mixes of Supremes hits [[listing 2 by name but expanding the thought by using the word 'etc') states in The" I Hear A Symphony Lp thread: "Now that is the mix I have been waiting for! I've heard the mix on the Motown Remixed CD from several years ago where they slowed it down and changed the instrumental track. I'd like to hear Mary and Flo's vocals pumped up along with the original backing track."

I believe that forum members who engage in remixing do contribute much more than proving nothing. They use their creative spirit and God-given talents to bring enjoyment to the listener through a variety of musical variations- much as you vary the way your steak is prepared.

Carole, since you decided to point out something I said, I [[as usual) have to clarify things specifically for YOU! Again, in English, I said I did not need to hear 6 or 7 remixes of worn out songs like "Baby Love" and "Stop In the Name of Love", etc. I would like to hear a version of "My World Is Empty Without You" where I can more clearly hear Mary and Florence as it more than likely was the case in the studio wayyyyy back in 1965. Do I need to have several mixes of it? NO! I have all those old records in storage and if I retire one day, I will revisit them!

Give the new music by the veteran artist some play! I think Mary Wilson and Martha Reeves did excellent recordings that are out now and current. There are others as Ralph has mentioned, which includes Teddie Morrow and I'll include Dennis Bowles new set! Do not get it confused, I do not agree with you whatsoever.

[marv2]

Hmmh... 20 previously unheard Martha Reeves & the Vandellas' tracks; 20 or so previously unheard Mary Wells tracks + 20 stereo versions of previously released vault recordings ; an unheard stereo master of a classic Supremes' album [[ the officially released version of which was subpar sonically even in the mid 60's) coupled with revealing alternate tracks and other surprises; a post Motown Miracles album only released in Holland... maybe you've heard all of these Ralph. But I know that I and many other fans are looking forward to hearing them. All you need to do is to read the various threads concerning them to see that .

You know it's funny. The artists that recorded the music don't even remember the stuff you want to hear and they don't usually listen to their own old recordings. You have to remind many of them that they even recorded certain things. Face it, you are just a part of a very niche market! LOL!

[soulster]

As for remixes, I don't need a new mix to feel like i'm in the studio. That's the job of the person doing the mastering. I believe vintage material should sound like the era they came from. If a recording was released in the 60s, it should have that 60s aesthetic. For most of the 60s, that means tube gear, no Dolby, and possibly mono. If there were mixed-down or buried background vocals in the original mixes, I don't want them exposed in a remix that makes the recording sound like it was done last week on someone's ProTools rig.


As for remaining vault material: hardcore fans sometimes lose objectivity when it comes to determining the quality of unreleased material. There could be a tape of someone belching and some fans would love it. But, is it worth owning?

[soulster]

- I`ll do them free of charge! Not the re- mastering that is.

Never do anything free of charge! But, i'll even remaster some of that stuff for digital release, if nothing else. Get the tapes, do the digital transfers, and i'll do the rest. :D I think it would be very cool to get that Jerry Butler album out there again.

[nathanj06]

QUOTE:
I don`t care about modern music, in fact I only listen to pre 1972 Motown of which I have most releases. I never tire of listening to James Jamerson`s bass lines. Roger Polhill.

I have to agree Roger [[except for the testicle part lol). I love the Motown Sound and after 1971 it was over. I have 8 cd's I made of those years and recently expanded to 3 more consisting of songs I like from 1973 - 1987. Some of us, as we get older, tend to love the music we grew up with. I don't think it's holding on to the past, it's just great music. Radio is still playing it. In fact yesterday in the car I heard "Ask The Lonely" and then right after that they played "River Deep Mountain High", which I haven't heard on radio in decades. I admit I'm not into today's stuff. The only thing I heard that was good to my ears was the one Peter Rivera did a couple years ago but to me, he IS Rare Earth whom I love. It's all a matter of what you like. While I'm on the subject, I recently found the single version of "What"d I Say" that I never heard before and a different mix than the album version. After 40 years you can still find things you never knew before. :)

[carole cucumber]

[QUOTE=marv2;122955]

I said I did not need to hear 6 or 7 remixes of worn out songs like "Baby Love" and "Stop In the Name of Love", etc.

I'm curious... when and where did you hear 6 or 7 remixes of "Baby Love" and "Stop In In the Name of Love'?

Other than when used in a medley, I'm only familiar with the Supremes' original released version of ''Baby Love'' and the alternate early version that have appeared. You specifically said that you 'did not need to hear'... meaning that you have heard 4 or 5 other mixes.
The same applies to "Stop In the Name of Love". I've only heard the officially released version and one alternate. Where did you hear the others you make mention of?

[ralpht]

Roger,
Hang on to your left one, dude. There just isn't much there in the vaults.

[carole cucumber]

You know it's funny. The artists that recorded the music don't even remember the stuff you want to hear and they don't usually listen to their own old recordings. You have to remind many of them that they even recorded certain things. Face it, you are just a part of a very niche market! LOL!

Exactly, because the Motown artists were kept so busy recording, travelling, performing, promoting, let alone living their personal/family lives, there is no way humanly possible that they could be expected to remember all that they recorded.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with being part of a niche market. As evidenced from many others who have responded to this thread, we are part of that experience and are loving it!
Regrettably, there are some well-deserving newer artists, as Ralph has pointed out, who have not yet found a fan base. These artists would jump at the chance to at least have enough fans so that their recorded output might be heard and accepted by anything approaching a very niche market.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Ralph and all,

I too often find that the new music, particularly made by veteran soul artists, are usually laid-back or mellow, as if their fire is gone, or they are too relaxed, or something. It's like they have nothing left to prove so there is no bite to their performance. Maybe I listen too much for the brasher sound they had back in the day. That could also very well be why so many of the forum members are "stuck in the past" so to speak. We are looking for that fire.

Nothing brought this to mind more than when Roberta Flack came out with her Beatles album earlier this year [[or was it last year?). I know mellow is her style, but...it's the Beatles! They were edgy

I do listen to new music, but, it is dance pop, stuff that is not liked around here, but it has the energy I look for. I guess I just have a youthful ear.

Earth, Wind & Fire are still making records, but I have not been impressed with their music for a couple of decades. They are too mellow, and the sound is too cold and, well...digital. Now, if they could pull out another "Shining Star" or "Getaway", something with that kind of force and energy, i'd listen to their new stuff. I know you're talking about the artists who contribute to this forum, but EWF is just an example of what I mean. Natalie Cole is another recent example. And, I do realize that time and health changes some people. But, when it comes to the energy in music I want to hear, I am very youthful. I'm not even 50 years old quite yet!

Now, for the engineers and producers: I just can't get into remixes of vintage material. That stuff should be left alone. The original mixes are just fine. I don't need a modern interpretation of it. The original mixes are etched in my mind and the way I want to always want to hear and remember them.

Motown? As I have stated earlier, there are things that have not been remastered digitally yet from artists that sold, and albums that were popular. Other small labels have stepped up and reissued some of them, but too often the mastering is questionable, the CDs are hard to find, and they go out of print too quickly.

Well put Soulster. You said it better than me. Too many veteran artists are sounding like the fire is gone. One thing this thread has made me realize is that Harry Weinger and crew are doing some bold stuff by continuing to issue music [[here in the US) that Motown addicts want to hear.

[skooldem1]

No offense to anyone, but besides veteran artist having seen better days, the same can be said of veteran producers. I thinkof all the lackluster releases by veteran artist and many times it leaves me wondering, what were the artist and the producer thinking.

[ralpht]

Kam,
More than likely, the reason that some re-masters are questionable is simply because the material wasn't all that good to begin with.

An incident took place at Detroit Motown a short while before it all went west. This was supposed to have been in "The Road Through Motown" but somehow got lost during the printing:

Harry Balk called me into his office one morning and asked me if I would like to re-start Martha Reeve's career. I had one meeting with Martha and was in pre production mode when Detroit ended, and I never got to complete the opportunity.

My point is that way back in 1971 or so, there simply wasn't anything in the can with Martha that was considered worthy of release. And this is the case with many of the artists. I'm not trying to dump on anyone's parade, I'm just putting forth a few facts so some of you can let go of the dream that there is a wealth of unreleased tracks just waiting to blow you away.

[Kamasu_Jr]

Kam,
More than likely, the reason that some re-masters are questionable is simply because the material wasn't all that good to begin with.

An incident took place at Detroit Motown a short while before it all went west. This was supposed to have been in "The Road Through Motown" but somehow got lost during the printing:

Harry Balk called me into his office one morning and asked me if I would like to re-start Martha Reeve's career. I had one meeting with Martha and was in pre production mode when Detroit ended, and I never got to complete the opportunity.

My point is that way back in 1971 or so, there simply wasn't anything in the can with Martha that was considered worthy of release. And this is the case with many of the artists. I'm not trying to dump on anyone's parade, I'm just putting forth a few facts so some of you can let go of the dream that there is a wealth of unreleased tracks just waiting to blow you away.

I understand you Ralph. I buy these Motown releases with previously unreleased tracks and usually end up liking only 2 or 3 tracks. The recent Spinners release on ACE is a good example. I liked the original album, but did not think most of the rare, unreleased stuff was that great. But I still commend Universal and Ace for releasing this stuff because other labels - especially those here in the US - don't bother going into their vaults.